Critique of the Smith Report from the JONP

Since there has been such a lot of discussion on the recently produced photos from the court documents, I thought the following comment by reader “DT” from the Journal of Nuclear Physics might be interesting regarding the report written by Rick A. Smith (expert witness for Industrial Heat) for readers here to read and discuss, since he includes some very specific calculations.

DT
April 8, 2017 at 5:17 AM

“Dr Andrea Rossi:
Surely you have realized that the “expertise” of Mr Smith, super-expert-consultant of IH in the litigation, is a fraud. It is totally based on two issues, both wrong:
1- he says that a COP higher than 1 is against the principles of thermodynamic
2- he says the pumps of the E-Cats had a flow rate of 36 liters per hour and gives evidence of this fact by a photo of the label of a Prominent pump installed on the E-Cat.

“As a matter of fact, the cases can only be two: either Mr Smith is not an expert, and in this case the issue is over, or he is giving voluntary false information in change of money. In fact, it is impossible that an expert ignores that:

“1- the thermodynamic principles must be applied to a specific system and in the case of the E-Cat the system is nuclear, not chemical, therefore it is possible that the COP is higher than one, because the chemical energy at the input induces nuclear energy: the three thermodynamic principles are fully respected because of the Einstein equation.

“2- the Prominent pump , as every pump, has a flow rate that is in function of the hydraulic pressure: Mr Smith has hidden to the readers the fact that in the same photo that he reports in his “expertise” is clearly written that the pressure is 2 Bar at the flow of 36 liters per hour !!! Obviously if the pressure is lower, the flow rate increases. I have personally used that model of Prominent pump and at a pressure of 0.2 Bars its flow rate is about 90 liters per hour. If we look well the photo of the pumps system of the E-Cat we can see that the pumps have to raise the water of few tens of centimeters, while 2 Bars correspond to 20 meters !!!! At a rate of 90 liters per hour, the maximum flow rate of all the pumps combined is well above the 1,600 liters per hour necessary to the E-Cat to reach a rate of about 1 MW.
Not to mention other enormous errors, like for example the fact that the superheating of the steam must be made as he says: this guy does not even know how boilers work, or, most likely, lies in change of money.

“Besides, somebody has to explain to him that the steam at 103 Celsius at room P is dry by physics laws. Plus, in the documents published by the Court is clearly described that along the steam line there was a trap to check if water was contained in the steam.”

 

  • GiveADogABone

    ‘[IH] have no idea why the data read the way they do because the evidence has been removed.’
    IH delegated the data reading to the ERV by contract and agreed to be bound by his judgement. Setting aside the ERV’s judgement needs proper proof.

    ‘pressure data’
    What pressure data? The differential pressures around the circuit are unaffected by barometric pressure. Pressures expressed in barg are above the local barometric pressure. Pressures expressed in bara are absolute.

  • Stephen

    Yup those are the ones I was thinking of. I suppose they could be something else but do look similar in arrangement.

  • Stephen

    As a follow up to my initial reply below, to follow your thinking you would probably need to look at this link:

    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heat-loss-open-water-tanks-d_286.html

    But since they are not open containers may be just consider the heat loss through the walls not the “open surface” which does not exist.

    Each Tiger is 2m x 0.7m x 0.3m so had a surface area 4.46 m2. So the 4 Tigers would have a surface are 17.84 m2 in total.

    Note the chart in this link assumes ambiant temperature of 15 degC and still air so would need adjusting if this was not the case.

    I would say if the Tigers do not contain lagging then they could radiate sufficient heat to account for 12 kW providing the temperature inside was high enough.

    If we have 77 deg C or more inside and 15 deg ambient then it should be possible I think according to the chart.

    On the other hand if those Tigers contain lagging the heat loss would be far less by orders of magnitude and obviously insufficient to account for 12 kW input heating power.

    Fortunately those Tigers have not been touched since the container was locked. So in theory this could easily be verified. Amongst other things.

  • Stephen

    Well for sure the pipes and the internal tank in Doral are lagged from the pictures. By quite thick insulation apparently.

    As far as the Tigers are concerned. Well it’s hard to see inside those blue boxes… but in the pictures of the plants in NC and Italy etc they were not yet covered in blue boxes and clearly had thick silver insulation on them. Those pictures in NC seem to have units of suitable size with the lagging to fit in the blue boxes as well

  • GiveADogABone

    030 : p2.
    Defendants deny that the energy catalyzer (“E-Cat”) technology “generates a low energy nuclear reaction resulting in an exothermic release of energy” along the lines claimed by Plaintiffs – which is that a reactor using the E-Cat technology produces more than 50 times the energy it consumes.

    In addition, the procedures and mechanisms which Plaintiffs have used in their experiments and testing of the E-Cat technology are flawed and unreliable in many respects.

    264-16 :
    Half hourly Penon data T_OUT P-OUT T_IN
    1/4/2015 00:00 00:30 104.5046 0.9810 69.1364
    CoP ~80

    Alternative IH data to support their case :-
    1/4/2015 00:00 00:30 77.0000 0.9810 69.1364
    CoP ~1

    Other data remains the same in both cases (e.g. Electrical Power 12kw, Mass Flow Rate 36,000kg/day).

    What I see as a problem for IH is that IH have to prove the ERV report wrong. Allegations, unsupported by compelling evidence do not count. I also take the view that reading this data does not require expert witness testimony (the Murray and Smith testimony is expendable, so who cares how bad it is?).

    So the question arises, ‘Why is the T_OUT temperature not 77C and is 104.5046C?
    Rossi’s answer would be that the calibrated test instrument says so.
    What would IH’s answer be (with supporting evidence)?

  • Stephen

    There has been a lot of discussion about the heat exchanger in the mezzanine in some forums.

    Lets on the other hand consider Smiths version of the the piping.

    In effect in his proposal we have 10 to 12kW water heating.

    In effect the the complete “water circuit” goes through the steam and condensate pipes that are always lagged or insulated. The insulated steam pipe to the JMP plant, the 4 lagged pipes in the the JMP plant and the lagged condensate return pipe.

    How long an insulated pipe would therefore be required disperse 10kW heat?

    (To do this we can ignore complicating issues such as bypasses to the steam pipe as they are not relevant in this case)

    Perhaps this link can help:

    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heat-loss-insulated-pipes-d_1151.html

    If I’m not wron we are looking at 10-30 W/m even with large temperature differences 40 to 80 deg C.

    Which is 300 to 1000m of piping per kW!

    If the water temperature is less due to the ecat a being bypassed by another flow then the temperature difference with the outside environment would be even less. This would require lagged pipe work to be 1000s m long to dissipate 10 kW

    • Stephen

      For information here is the equivalent link for heat loss from uninsulated pipes.

      http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/steel-pipes-heat-loss-d_53.html

    • GiveADogABone

      The guarantee that Smith’s version of reality is false is that the recorded outlet temperatures and pressures of the E-cat were 1bara / 103C.

      These conditions are slightly superheated steam which the E-cat is capable of producing, contrary to Smith’s claim. A further demonstration that the steam pipes contained steam is given by observation that the boiler gauge glasses operated at ‘half-a-glass’.

      • Stephen

        GADAB I fully agree.

        But my point is that even if we ignore the Temperatures and Flow rates. What ever the temperatures are and what ever the flow rates are the Energy in should equal the Energy out.

        If we have only 10’s of m of lagged pipes and no radiator or Endothermic process those lagged pipes in his scenario cannot account for the 10kW heat loss required to account for the 10kW consumed by the ecat.

        This is quite ironic as made a big deal about the laws of thermodynamics but as far as u can see his own proposal breaks the first law.

        • GiveADogABone

          Let’s get some numbers on that.

          Circulate water at rate m’ kg/s
          Input electrical power at 12kwh/day (as stated by Penon and ‘not manipulated’ by Murray)
          Heat output E-cat=0.5kw (no LENR heating according to Smith)

          Specific heat of water 4.12 kJ/kg K
          delta T over E-cat from Penon data 33C

          0.5=m’*4.12*33
          m’=0.0036775 kg/s = 317.7 kg/day

          Stated E-cat flow rate 36,000 kg/day
          Smith flow rate is 0.86% of Penon flow rate at stated dT.
          I doubt that would be enough to make the flowmeter move at all.

          To speed up the flow rate by a factor of 113, the delta T over the E-cat must drop by a factor of 113 (to about 0.29C). Then Smith is presenting something like the real electrical power and the real flow rate but not the real world temperatures.

          What shoots this down is the measured temperature and pressure readings in combination :-
          1: The outlet temperature and pressure demonstrates that the steam pipe contains water or steam, and
          2: the low/high delta T over the E-cat nails the flow rate problem.

          I wondered a few times why the internal tank temperature was worth recording after Rossi gave away the enthalpy needed to heat the tank water to boiling point. Now we know; it blocks the ‘Smith stupidity’, so I have learnt something useful from this exercise. Thanks!

          • Stephen

            Hi GADAB. I agree with a lot you said, with one correction. According to the Penon Report the power consumption was 12 kWh/h not 12 kWh/day.

            http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/197-03-Exhibit-3.pdf

            So the heat out put work Ltd also be about 12 kW.

            • GiveADogABone

              Hopefully, now correct.

              • Stephen

                Curiously 12 kW is equivalent four 3 kW kettle elements or one 3kW kettle element in each Tiger.

          • Engineer48

            Hi GADAB,

            My issues with Smith’s numbers are nothing aligns and yet there seems to be no concern to make them align and support ALL of his claims.

            As you and other Ngineers know, we like numbers to align, to stack up, to help us define and control the beasts we design, build and maintain.

            All I see from him are statements that his own numbers do not support.

            But maybe the target audience is not Ngineers who know hiw to do the math & understand the physics?

            Highly doubt IH will allow any Ngineers into the jury as they will spoil their plans & tell the other juniors what is what and what is BS.

            • Stephen

              Yup I find that very concerning too.

            • GiveADogABone

              I knew that the expert witness system in America has a poor reputation and I knew Murray’s testimony was way sub-standard but I could still not explain to myself how to refute it at its core. With the electrical power level and the feed flow rates sensible, just maintaining that the steam was superheated was not enough.

              The numerical trick (despite my arithmetic aberration) is now clear and I can see how the Penon data collecting scheme refutes that trick within its own numbers. It HAD TO be able to do that in order to be bulletproof. It is a great relief to know that the Penon scheme does refute Smith within itself.

            • GiveADogABone

              I now believe IH do not need the expert reports of Murray and Smith; they are expendable and were only ever smoke screen. The attack that matters is on the To temperature data. Change To from 103C to 77C and the CoP changes from 78 to 1. The rest of the data can stay where it was in the real world and this change happens.

              • Stephen

                Yup but to disperse 10kw heat in insulated pipework would require a very long pipe especially at this temperature difference of about 50 deC of so from ambient.

                At the minimum they would still require some kind of external heat exchanger or endothermic process to account for the heat loss.

                If we consider water flow through the whole set up we would also need to consider the required head to move water through all that pipe work in addition to head required for increased elevation. So they would still require additional pumps.

        • GiveADogABone

          CoP=1
          Elec Pwr=12kw
          Spec Ht = 4.12kJ/kg K
          Mass Flow Rate= 0.4167kg/s (36,000kg/day)

          12=0.4167*dT*4.12
          dT=7C

          E-cat I/O data
          Ti=70C
          To=77C
          Po=1bara

          IH’s version
          EP – RW (Real World)
          MFR – RW
          Ti – RW
          Po – RW
          To – 77C (instead of 103C)

          To at 77C does two things :-
          1: Makes the steam pipe contain water, and
          2: makes the E-cat outlet 7C hotter than the inlet to correspond with CoP=1, EP=12kw, MFR=36,000kg/day.

          It all depends on what To temperature readings the jury believe (77C or 103C).

  • GiveADogABone

    The BF modules are still producing 1MW of heat. If all that heat is to be removed by water heating alone, then the water flow rate through the BF units has to be about 19 times greater than normal plus your postulated bypass flow.

  • GiveADogABone

    The flowmeter was read manually. Normal for a stable system running under an accurate control system.

  • GiveADogABone

    There is half hourly logging data for 1 April 2015 onwards at 264-16:.

  • psi2u2

    My observation as a non-scientist who has studied the history of ideas is that many scientists are not much better at doing that than everyone else is. All expertise involves being acculturated into a set of ideas and social conventions that, historically, involves accepting premises that later generations, with more knowledge or awareness, will find to be absurdly wrongheaded.

  • Ged

    I agree, I am glad we have folks like him in the community doing the work and looking this over. It is awesome.

    And you can use the empirical graph of flowrate vs heat transfer coefficient of air at the engineering toolbox I linked earlier for the 200 kW figure (TTHux actually embedded that graph in the furst post of his you linked, though he didn’t use it). Using my other links for the heat transfer coefficient in an exchanger set up, one would get muuuch higher results than that, but the engineering toolbox seems a good compromise on known determined rates but not requiring a properly built exchanger like the other links assume. Since I do not believe a properly built exchanger would be the situation here.

  • Ged

    Hello heat storage salts. Do you want 78 kJ/mol endothermic at 32 C with a cost of just 1 cent/kg? Known in 1979? Well, you are in luck 🙂 https://engineering.ucsb.edu/~yuen/references/ref-1.pdf

    Meanwhile, ice is 6.01 kJ/mol endothermic to melt. Just for comparison. Oh, and there are even greater endothermic heat storage salt out there than that. Oh, and the density is double that of water for the above salt, so you can use twice as much in the same space. Pretty cool!

    Still wasn’t what happened there or there would have been visible transport activity, but the future of exotic heat storage materials you long for is already here, and has been for 40+ years.

    • Bruce__H

      You know what … I think I had heard of these salts. Something about tapping geothermal heat using a convective flow of salts if that makes any sense. I think a a pilot facility near the Dead Sea was pointed out to me in the mid 1990’s. Interesting!

      • Ged

        There is some crazy salt tech out there. Some well over 100 kJ/mol. Sometimes I wonder why they aren’t used so much, like why isn’t molten salt reactors used when we’ve had the tech for decades and the pilots were superior to standard plants… Maybe they are just too cheap to make money off of compared to all the engineering R&D needed to retool/redesign for their use. Geothermal would be a great application too.

  • Ged

    Don’t forget that heat storage salts are extremely endothermic, Much more than melting ice, per mol :). We had this discussion a long time ago, and it is bemusing how everyone harps on ice and forgets a far more important heat storage material.

    None the less, while using salts makes it physically doable to use up all 1 MW in that space, it still requires so much material cycling that everyone would see the drums going in and out of the place. So, it definitely didn’t happen.

    But the melting ice analogy is lame if one wants to explore what is actually possible.

  • Stephen

    Yup but one 3 kW kettle heating element in each half full 480 liter of so BF or Tiger making 25 mugs of tea a minute and pumping it around that long circuit of DN 100 and/or DN150 and DN80 pipe work. And at the same time fooling the thermometers and flow meter and even fooling the flow meter consistently with different flow rates when only making 18 or 12 cups of tea a minute doesn’t seem likely to me either. So we are stuck between 2 incredible scenarios.

  • GiveADogABone

    What does the high frequency sealed logging have to say?
    What does the BF power do when the steam pipe is flooded?

    • Bruce__H

      >What does the high frequency sealed logging have to say?
      For the flowmeter? I don’t know. I haven’t heard anything about this.

      >What does the BF power do when the steam pipe is flooded?
      Heats water. The Smith and Penon flows commingle.

      Where do you store the water that is used to flood the system?
      > In the external tank

      • GiveADogABone

        > Would you expect the rest of the logging to carry on unchanged through the changes of postulated flow?

        >Assuming you mean the BF units remain at constant power, you need a massive increase in flow through the BFs to force them to flood and that flow would be produced by the Prominent pumps which Smith already alleges cannot produce enough flow normally. Where does the water flow come from?

        >How big is the external tank in comparison to the volume need to flood everything?

        • Stephen

          From visual inspection of the picture. The outside tank looks to me to be about 2m x 2m x 0.8m = 3.2 m3 (3200 liters or 640 gallons).

          Each Tiger was reported as having a total volume 2m x 0.7m x 0.3m = 0.42 m3 (420 liters or 84 gallons)

          It’s not clear how much of the total volume of the Tigers was used for the water tank but it should be less than this.

          So for 4 Tigers:

          Full would be < 4 x 420 liters = 1680 liters

          Half full would be < 840 liters.

          The internal tank looks to me to be at most 1.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 375 liters

          (But could be substantially less than this if it is shorter or has a lot of lagging)

          I'm not sure how much water the pipes use but it should be easy to calculate. I imagine very little unless they are very long and we also take into account the mezzanine pipework.

          • GiveADogABone

            I would go with V=l*PI*d^2/4
            l=220m
            d=0.3m
            V=15.5m^3
            for the mezzanine pipework.

            That is quite a mismatch for the external tank at 3.2m^3.

            • Stephen

              Was the diameter of those pipes 30cm I thought it was closer to 15cm?

              • GiveADogABone

                Are we mixing diameter and radius? I used diameter and divided by 4.

                • Stephen

                  I’m not sure to be honest… I thought I read somewhere that the diameter of th pipes in the mezzanine was 15cm by I could be wrong maybe it was the radius… if its diameter is 30cm then your calculation is completely right of course.

                  That would be quite something. But it would have the advantage that the steam flow would be much slower.

                • GiveADogABone

                  Perhaps Prof Wong’s calc gives reliable input data and I could be wrong.

        • Stephen

          What could be interesting is to look at the flow velocity if we assume the system is flooded.

          If we assume DN150 steam pipe has a water flooded flow rate 1500 liters per hour. It would have a flow velocity = 1.5 / 0.0176 = 85.7 m/h = 2.4 cm/s

          So for example water flow through 75 m of DN150 steam pipe would take about 53 minutes.

          If water is flowing at 1/5 the flow rate as some have speculated it would take about 4.5 hours to complete the same circuit!

          If the pipe is narrower the flow can also be significantly faster of course.

          If we assume DN100 steam pipe has a water flooded flow rate 1500 liters per hour. It would have a flow velocity = 1.5 / 0.0078= 192 m/h = 5.3 cm/s

          Obviously steam or superheated steam with its much lower density than water 0.59 kg/m3 (as opposed to 1000kg/m3) it would travel 3 orders of magnitude faster of course.

          If we assume DN80 pipe has a water flow rate 1500 liters per hour. It would have a flow velocity = 1.5 / 0.005 = 300 m/h = 8.3 cm/s

          • GiveADogABone

            It does not quite work out like that. The steam flow over the water starts waves and when the wave hits the top of the pipe, the water slug gets accelerated up to steam speed. GIven enough pipe length the whole thing can homogenise and thermodynamic equilibrium be established.

            Steam hammer also becomes an issue.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_hammer
            Steam distribution systems may also be vulnerable to a situation similar to water hammer, known as steam hammer. In a steam system, a water hammer most often occurs when some of the steam condenses into water in a horizontal section of the piping. Steam picks up the water, forming a “slug”, and hurls this at high velocity into a pipe fitting, creating a loud hammering noise and greatly stressing the pipe. This condition is usually caused by a poor condensate drainage strategy.

            Then, if you want to separate the water and steam into two streams you have another problem. How do you do it? I await Bruce’s solution with interest.

            • Stephen

              Thanks GADAB these engineering points you raise and clarify are always really interesting to learn from.

              I really appreciate them. Seems there is always another level 😉

              • GiveADogABone

                Bruce states :-
                This is a high-volume flow running in parallel with the Penon flow.
                The Smith and Penon flows commingle.
                just above in the thread.

                I thought we were on that; my mistake maybe. Bruce is very keen that both flow paths are in use at the same time.

                • Stephen

                  Ahh ok I understood it was using the two different flows at different times i.e. Steam flow in the day and Water flow in the night.

                  But I got side tracked from your reply comment where you talk about this parallel flow during the Penon flow so I confused the point a bit I apologize for that.

              • GiveADogABone

                If we ever get a definitive explanation of the proposed flow and thermodynamics, the inconsistencies will appear.

      • Stephen

        There was an exhibit somewhere with detailed (hourly I think) temperature and pressure data for some days in April. I don’t think it included the flow rate as this was not automatically logged.

        Unfortunately I can’t recall the exhibit number. Maybe someone knows it if not If I can find it I will try to link it here.

        The data in that exhibit was varying very slightly but always very consistent through the through whole day with very little variation and no real change between day a night. I wonder how this would fit with your scenario?

        • GiveADogABone

          There is one page of half hourly data for 1 April 2015 at 264-16 : page7.

          • Stephen

            Thanks

    • Bruce__H

      Hi GADAB,

      Sorry. I didn’t see your question until now.

      1) How are steam and water separated when it is time for them to go off on their respective loops?
      > When the system is running in Smith mode (at night) I don’t think there is much steam. It is all hot water. Water is drawn up from the internal tank and pushed into the Tiger/BFs by the Prominent pumps. It gets heated, and goes out into the steam riser to join with the main flow that is being pushed by the Grundfos pump. Meanwhile that Grundfos-driven circulation is flowing away from the JMP side, over to the ecat sides, then up the steam riser and back to the JMP side. When the system is in Penon mode during the day the Grundfos pump is off and the only loop left is though the Prominent pumps and the Tiger/BFs. That loop is steam-filled afte the Tiger/BFs the e

      2) I take it this flow is in the steam pipe and mingling is the more accurate statement. In which case temperatures and pressure matter. The internal tank temperature is at about 70C. The steam is at 103C. The water will be heated to 100C by condensing steam. The 100C water has to be cooled back to 70C in the black box. How is that cooling achieved?
      > We are talking of Smith/nighttime mode again. There is no steam … that was shut down when the Grundfos pump was turned on and water from the external tank was driven up the steam riser and backwards into the Tiger/BFs. I don’t see how the temperature in the system can be maintained exactly at 103 during startup although it is perfectly possible to have it at 103 generally since the whole system is pressurized at this time.

      • GiveADogABone

        You state, ‘I don’t think there is much steam.’
        The latent heat of vapourization/condensation of water at 1bara is 2257kJ/kg.
        The specific heat of water is 4.12kJ/kg K.
        There is a total mismatch.
        If you want to condense 1kg of steam using a water temperature change of 30C(say) you need 2257/(4.12*30)=18.26kg of water.

  • GiveADogABone

    Where is the corresponding arrangement inside the JMP black box?
    Nowhere.

    • Bruce__H

      He is saying it is essential if the system produces steam.

      If it is just hot water circulated by a pump, with not temperature differential around the system, then there is no problem.

      • GiveADogABone

        The ‘if’ is missing in Smith’s testimony. Perhaps he will correct that defect in court?

  • GiveADogABone

    No. Steam traps by any common useage of the name are small bore valves with an active component inside. There is no steam trap in the Rankine Cycle diagram.

    If you are wondering how the water level is normally maintained, a control valve is fitted to the discharge of the condenser extraction pump. The control valve is well away from the water level and just moves to where the control system tells it to move. In the E-cat, the flow is controlled by the Prominent pumps.

    Steam trap – Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_trap

    Steam trapping overview – Spirax Sarco
    http://www.spiraxsarco.com/global/us/…/Steam%20Trap%20Overview_SPB1009.pdf

    • Bruce__H

      I’ll have to think it over. I’m reading the Spirax material

  • Stephen

    I was also wondering about this statement when I read it.

    It’s interesting he says “if the tank needs water…. “, “the operator will turn on those pumps”. It seems to me to imply that normally the E-cat heater tank does not need water from the pumps but sometimes needs manually topping up by the pumps.

    Which somehow implies the water normally circulates with out those pumps and they are only required to top up. So it seems there is yet another twist to the story.

  • GiveADogABone

    ‘The point just before the boiler would require what I have now learned to call a steam trap.’
    Sounds wrong to me. The lines before the boiler contain condensate and not steam. You will not find a steam trap on a condensate line. A steam trap drains moisture from the bottom of a steam pipe that contains saturated steam. The drainage is piped away to somewhere. The drainage will not flow if the drainage receiver is at higher pressure than the steam pipe.

    Ah!! The penny has dropped. On equipment that takes heat out of saturated steam and produces condensate as a result, a steam trap is what you can use to stop steam going down the drains. That is what Smith’s drawing of a conventional boiler shows. A steam trap is then part of the primary circuit flow.

    There is no steam trap in the primary circuit flow of the E-cat and Mr Smith is totally deluded.

  • Bruce__H

    Here is a photo from Smith’s updated report
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8f7e85690d8c1cbac3a8cf0b07f7ad510d0ab7b3cdd54a7304494bc74c5243b9.jpg
    This is a view from the middle of the ecat plant looking at the Tiger/BF rack. The internal water tank is at the bottom, the steam riser is the lagged vertical structure on the right, and the red arrows show the pipes carrying steam out of the individual Tiger/BF units and into the steam riser.

    What is the vertical pipe on the left? Right beside the man’s hand

  • Stephen

    Only that it’s been reported in various places as being endothermic. Although I fully agree it would need to be something pretty exotic and new to account for the amount of thermal energy absorbed and it’s required persistence.

    If such a thing exists it would be almost as remarkable as LENR itself. A heat sink like that would have all kinds of real world applications quite apart from what ever product is being produced.

    So I’m intrigued of course aren’t you? If it’s something else like just radiating heat outside the system then we will find out eventually. If it’s something new then I will be thrilled to see it.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    I agree. If there was an endothermic process, its influence on the overall energy balance was most likely negligible. Except if – as you say – they had processed very large amounts of material.

  • GiveADogABone

    If you place the condenser high enough, so there is a high column of water underneath , the column of water can pump the boiler, provided the boiler outlet pressure is low enough. No real generating plant would do it but it would work on the E-cat.

  • Engineer48

    Hi Bruce,

    So let me get this right.

    You are suggesting that every time the water level in EACH of the 4 Tiger dropped too low, someone had to manually switch on a pump to refill them? 24/7/365? for EACH of the 4 Tiger? Suggest there will be some very busy people, manually switching on those Tiger Prominent pumps many times an hour to maintain the fluid level in the gauge glasses.

    Please think about that you just claimed and you will understand it is not possible. Which means the pumping action you assumed is not correct.

    The pump mentioned was switched on to move the water from the external tank into the internal tank when the water level was too low.

  • GiveADogABone

    Rankine cycle
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankine_cycle
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4a16a8ec96119ed0f491b08f2676824bed0e708754d46034b11dd1af16ed1a0f.png
    Some requests have been made for an explanation of what is happening inside the E-cat condensate/steam circuit. The circulating water/steam performs a Rankine cycle. It has four components :-
    1-2: condensate return pumped into the boiler
    2-3: condensate economized, evaporated and superheated in a once-through boiler
    3-4: steam is expanded and its pressure drops. You can use a turbine in the Wkipedia diagram but the E-cat uses friction in a narrow steam pipe (sound familiar?)
    4-1: condensation to water, and the cycle repeats
    If the E-cat produced a half-decent steam pressure, you could insert an engine that did real work, instead of just throttling the steam in a narrow pipe. At 200psi, you could have a railway locomotive.

  • Stephen

    Why was the black box lagged?

    Was it to retain heat? If so why were the pipes inside lagged?

    Or was it some kind of sound proofing?

    Would cavitation etc from rapid cooling system of the steam in the pipe work here if it works as claimed produce sound?

    • Stephen

      Very very thick insulation?

      According to this picture the steam pipe enters th JMP container right up in the top left corner:

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/25462a52cde5e2e1903d9d3b95ea723d08458756d29017be2735931c9a58ff35.jpg

      But from the outside it seems to enter much lower and to the left.

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a96d16528c61bf1a30fdb5168c7aab494ca8237e2ac1343aa4f43cfb073760f0.jpg

      In the above pictures the lagged pipe looks to be about 30cm diameter and looks to be about 50cm inside the outside surface. It looks to me we have very thick insulation in 2 layers. With an obvious outer layer maybe 10 to 15 cm and a hidden inner layer of similar thickness

      The following picture shows the insulated back doors with a very thick layer on top of the container above those doors:

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8605f5319e63fa33f7aa1736c6f031b3dfb558e0a04e3d59a55b8d0840199178.jpg

      This seems extremely thick insulation for thermal purposes. Could it make more sense as acoustic insulation?

      • Goodrice

        In the deposition he says that in the insulated tubes inside the JMP container he also has reactors containing Pt – Ni – Graphene. We also know that the there are “heating cables” inside and other stuff. From these photos it’s not clear how much of it is simply insulation.

        To be honest I don’t think he had endothermic reactions going on there, quite the opposite actually.

        • Stephen

          Just for clarity I was talking about the thick black insulation on the container it self rather than the pipes.

          But I agree the heating strips seem to imply he wanted to keep the contents in those pipes hot.

          I’m quite curious what ideas about the process you have in mind. I would bet from your past comments they are very good ones. But apparently Andrea Rossi did say the process was endothermic. So it will be interesting to see someday.

          • Goodrice

            Yes sorry, I was referring to the pipe in the first two photos. If you mean the insulation on the container I’m wondering how heavy and dense it is, it could have been for more than just heat.

            I think Rossi has been doing or trying to do LENR experiments inside the JMP container with Pt-Ni-C catalysts. Before he got involved with the E-Cat he found that Pt-Ni thermoelectric devices were good “catalyzers” for exhaust fumes. Here the C would come from the Graphene that he apparently made from graphite. Interesting coincidence.

            https://www.google.com/patents/US20050028858

            [0048] Also for what it concerns the thermoelectric materials there can be changes with respect to the couple platinum-tellurium.
            [0049] For example the couple platinum-nickel, further to generating electric power, showed an unexpected catalyzing effect on the exhaust of diesel combustion engines.
            [0050] Indeed, Pt—Ni modules according to the invention were tested on the exhaust of diesel engines and proved themselves efficacious as catalyzers for the depurating exhaust.

            • Stephen

              Yup I think there is a lot in his past patents and especially their interrelationships some times I wonder if we studied them if we could see the evolution of his ideas from all the way back in the beginning with his waste processing to the quarkx

            • Stephen

              Carbon is also known to enhance hydrogen desorption rates from metal Hydrides.

              But it seems from his dispositions he is replacing platinum with carbon… perhaps CNT or something similar could perform a similar function to the platinum?

              • Goodrice

                A lot of information is still missing and what is available could be incomplete as Rossi balances trying to not lie under oath with not revealing his secrets at the same time. For example in the 2017-03-01 deposition he was asked about Nickel in the JMP container, but the context behind that question does not seem to be in the publicly available documents.

                Personally, I think he would still need to have a metal in there, but perhaps in some cases it doesn’t necessarily have to be present in the form of a powder.

                I’m afraid that at this point the discussion might be verging into speculation territory.

                • Stephen

                  Yup your right. We can only wait. And see what data comes up. It’s going to be interesting what ever comes up.

                  For sure though what ever it is quite a complex but thought through and consistent machine. For me it must be doing something real. The question is just what.

          • Goodrice

            If such an endothermic reaction was going on, why would a heat exchanger outside the container for the steam be needed at all? Reportedly, water entered the JMP container as low pressure steam, exited from it as steam to the heat exchanger in the second floor and then returned back to it as liquid water.

            It doesn’t seem like what was occurring in the JMP container was an endothermic reaction.

            • Stephen

              Well I think there are s couple of possibilities if it does turn out it is endothermic:

              1. The heat exchanger in the mezzanine is there for contingencies in case of failures in the JMP plant. Or is used when the JMP plant is Off or working at reduced capacity.

              2. The JMP plant is not able to use the full 1MW of heat in its current configuration and so the mezzanine heat exchanger is required to take up the difference.

              For sure the whole setup should take care of contingencies and failures safely in case of need but i suppose providing the ECat could be switched down venting the steam could also be an option.

              On the otherhand it’s very difficult to think of sufficiently strong and persistent endothermic reaction that could take place with out generating and requiring huge amounts of materials. It seems to me only option if an endothermic process is taking place is for it to be something quite exotic. But who knows maybe there are thermo-electrochemical processes that I have not thought of…

              It’s true what you say though that since the heat exchanger is there and providing it is sufficiently vented that maybe the process need not be endothermic. Andrea Rossi did say at some point it was endothermic apparently but indeed I’m not sure if he mentioned it yet in his dispositions.

              • Goodrice

                Bass said the reaction was endothermic and that steam was converted to water in the serpentine pipes inside the JMP box, but that specific point contradicts with what Rossi said about the steam being cooled [to water] in the heat exchanger in the mezzanine. From the public documents it doesn’t seem that Rossi talked about endothermic reactions in his depositions, but I could have missed (or not remembering) something, or there might be more in the non-public parts.

                I think Bass knows more than he’s let on during his deposition but I also believe he’s often referred to what Rossi previously told him, without questioning whether it was true or not.

                My personal opinion is that something produced heat there, but not all the time. If this is the case it will imply legal problems for Rossi, even if LENR with a significant COP was produced.

                • Stephen

                  This one describes a lot about it between pages 10 and 12.

                  http://coldfusioncommunity.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/0194.08_Exhibit_8.pdf

                  Although Andrea Rossi does not say its endothermic he says the mezzanine heat exchanger and bypass was installed because he didn’t know how much heat the plant would use.

                  Apparently he also mentioned to Matts Lewan that it was endothermic according to this thread:

                  http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/05/16/mat-lewan-meets-rossi-in-sweden-rossi-bidding-on-factory-for-quarkx-production/

                  It’s also discussed at some length here:

                  http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/08/14/rossi-customers-manufacturing-process-was-endothermic/

                  But I’m not sure if he says endothermic specially in his dispositions I’ve just read that he said the heat was used which is a bit more vague.

                  I guess we will have to wait and see.

                • Obvious

                  But Rossi found a Customer that required 1MW steam. They had an existing system that used that amount of energy, and can compare the cost of the new source of heat energy (the IH-Leonardo Plant that they are renting) to the old heat supply system. The only gauge that matters is the happiness of the Customer when he increases his profits.

                • Stephen

                  Well I guess the court and jury will judge that if it’s relevant but I certainly could not judge just on the partial data we receive and not knowing what the balance is in the data I have not seen even if was my place to so.

                  The fact that JMP is independent company from Leonardo makes sense to me due to IH contract with Leonardo and the valid concerns to keep the IP for the JMP business separate.

                  In fact those technology considerations for separating IP in different companies makes more sense to me than having several layers of shell companies for finance independence reasons. But then I’m not working in finance.

                  That said the whole story of the arrangement and what each group knew is very unclear in the small sections of dispositions we see. I’m sure it’s much clearer I the full texts for the court.

                  I get the impression as well that the status of the companies both LC and IH and their various partners evolved a lot over the contract and especially I the last years. It very hard to see the timeline of all that and how it was communicate with the limit bits of data we see.

                  To be honest in my opinion I get the impression that both Andrea Rossi and Tom Darden were very genuine with each other in the beginning and both had genuine hopes. But I suspect some subsequent events, evolution of associate status and perhaps unfortunately a few exploiting associates may have disturbed the trust. At least as far as the IP strategy was concerned and perhaps the technology itself.

                  With lack of clear data. There are different ways to make opinions about what is going on. I have my own bias of course as we all do. Mine is clearly more positive about Andrea Rossi than yours. Which is OK.

                  I think we would both agree its good to look at and try and understand the real technical data that becomes available with out preconceptions and without resorting to petty insults or hateful or slanderous comments about either party. At least that’s what I try to do… Maybe I’m not always successful.

                • psi2u2

                  Nice summary.

      • Stephen

        On the other hand I suppose it could still be thermal lagging if the whole container is heated to consistent high but very steady temperature in some configurations. Perhaps the un lagged pipes are sufficient for this especially if they are much longer than we see in the pictures.

  • Stephen
    • Engineer48

      Hi Stephen,

      Looking at the probably 4 inch wide timber on the side wall and visually relating that to the pipe diameter, I suggest 6 inch diameter.

      That other fitting looks to be a sliding fitting that would need to be there to handle length changes are the pipes heated from ambient to 104C.

  • Stephen

    What is this silver pipe also apparently “under the stairs to the mezzanine”?

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f8ce5ef67cb9c135fdf509ff587346be68f97a89815ce145397f768dce2c3a03.jpg

    Is this one of the pipes used for the serpentine condenser in the mezzanine?

    What material and surface does it have is this consistent with condenser pipe work.

    Assuming the warehouse is 10m tall and 12 mm wide. The 4 pipes would maybe make up 80m

    What happened to the remaining 140m. Is it used in th plant now?

    Is this bit of pipe part of the remaining 140m?

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Interesting observation. Maybe the pipes were led first horizontally on the floor below the stairs and then vertically up to the 2nd floor. For that purpose you would have to break through the platform before the entry to the mezzanine. The “clean” areas mentioned by E48 might just be the planks that had to be (re-)inserted after the removal of the system.

  • Stephen
    • Goodrice

      For some reason they had “heating cables”, temperature sensors and other systems going into the JMP side container, as Bass and Rossi told during their depositions.

      • Stephen

        If he has some unusual persistent endothermic reaction going on which is difficult to explain with any known process. I think from his dispositions he may have been using high voltage electric processes to enable that process in this device too. But it is a bit wild speculation on my side I must admit.

        Could the device on the steam pipe be a steam trap? Or some kind of meter? I dont see any wires going there.

        The square device on the end of the serpentine pipe frame looks interesting but I have no idea what it could be. Perhaps just a camera?

    • Engineer48

      Hi Stephen,

      Suggest the dual flexible hoses may have carried condensate from the upper story back to the lower heat exchanger for return to the ECat container. Your can see them curled on the floor in this image.

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1a35466507a338931f019470143cadca6f218cd83a572f851e1a3612e72b25d1.png

  • Stephen
    • Stephen

      According to this thread and comments by Andrea Rossi at the time the customer plant is actually 20m x 3m x 3m.

      http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/05/16/mat-lewan-meets-rossi-in-sweden-rossi-bidding-on-factory-for-quarkx-production/

      This would be about 60 ft and correspond to a combination of one 40ft (12m) container and one 20ft (6m) container. Surrounded in very thick insulation.

      If so it could mean it’s not just 10ft (3m) missing between those two pictures but actually closer to 30ft (9m)!

      An alternative would be if the smaller container is a separate unit connected at either end of the larger container with a door or wall in between. But it does not look like this is the case.

  • Stephen

    An interesting question: If the external tank is full of distilled water. Is its capacity sufficient to fill the ecat supposed liquid capacity. I.e. the Tigers to the required capacity (half full) the internal tank, the condensate pipe work, as well as the steam circuit to required capacity in steam phase?

  • Engineer48

    Hey Bruce,

    Still believe LENR is BS?

    Please let us know your bias or do you prefer to not make your bias known?