## Regarding the Manelas Device (Axil Axil)

The following post was made on another thread by Val K. I thought it would be useful to put it in its own thread for discussion.

I am not an LENR or hydrino energy adept. I am not even a physicist. I just recently bumped into the topic of hydrino energy and became curious. I watched the SunCell presentation on Youtube and get very excited about Mills’ GUT-CP and hydrino energy. However, something about SunCell does not make sense to me, so I would appreciate if somebody, who has more knowledge in physics and engineering and better understanding of how it all works, answer these questions.

1. If temperature of the SunCell light-emitting sphere is 3000K, so the temperature inside the reaction chamber must be at least the same ore higher. However, from what I have seen on Youtube, the the entire Device including the reaction chamber was not designed to withstand such temperature. Can somebody explain me how the device can maintain its structural integrity and for how long, when such tremendous amount of heat is produced in the small volume?

2. At first look, the liquid stream silver electrodes seem like a very elegant solution to cope with the problem of melting of the electrodes. However, how the liquid streams remain unbroken, with constant distance between streams and with the constant stream diameter (especially, when electric arc is formed between them)? How the molten silver remains liquid (which is crucial for recycling of silver) and does not evaporate? (According to Wikipedia, the boiling point of is 2435 K. At 3000 K it will never return back to the liquid state.)

3. Using CPV cells sounds also as a smart idea. However, with the overall efficiency of ~21% (Massimo’s estimate for Geodesic Dense Receiver Array) or even less efficiency for Triangle Receiver Unit, the rest of the produced energy will end up as a heat. Thus, there should be a huge excess of heat , which should melt the CPV enclosure and the whole SunCell as well. There is no hints of how they are going to deal with this excess of heat. It is obvious, that introduction of any heat-exchange system inside the CPV enclosure would inevitably shadow the CPV cells resulting in further reduction of its overall efficiency. To me, the whole idea of using the CPV cells is just a sort of bells and whistles, which should attract the investors. Regular steam machine with the SunCell in its core would do the job, being much more efficient, more reliable, and cheaper (provided that SunCell works).

I admit that my knowledge is very limited, so I would appreciate any clarifications on these issues.

Val K

• doug marker

As posted to Veblin, this is a great and well balanced report. Thanks

D

• Veblin

Falls Church News-Press
By Tom Whipple MARCH 13, 2017 3:39 PM
The Great Energy Transition: Progress on the SunCell
https://fcnp.com/2017/03/13/great-energy-transition-progress-suncell/

• doug marker

Excellent well balanced article. !.

Doug M

• sam
• sam

Morgan.

• sam

Just before the 2 minute mark of this
video Dr Mills takes off.
An amazing performance even if I don’t
understand much of what he says.

https://youtu.be/1WXruYqDWi4

• doug marker

Yup 🙂 – thought the same myself when I saw that clip. It just flows …

D

• sam

From 2.16.00 to 2.19.30 in the Irvine California
presentation they discuss getting product to market.
Near the end of this segment they mention Columbia tech
is one of there teams working on Sun cell.
Sorry for not mentioning relevence when i posted video.

• cashmemorz

This is the standard way of getting new tech into the market. So what the video is showing is in contrast to how BrLP is doing this. BrLP is outside the institutional scholastic mix and is taking their tech to market without the help of an institution such as a University. By having been pushed out of or ignored by those institutions, Randell Mills had to develop his tech on his own, at a loss to those very institutions that are proud to have a department that is set up to help people like R.M. get their tech to market. When you are too good to be true you are thrown to the wolves to rise or sink on your own efforts. Pride goes before a fall as they say.

• MorganMck

Agreed. Hope that is all it is. The competition could not hurt going forward either.

• Axil Axil

The are a half dozen similar if not identical systems in LENR that are essentially the same process as the SunCell.

For example

HIGH-ENERGETIC METAL NANO-CLUSTER PLASMOID AND

Klimov A., Grigorenko A., Efimov A., Sidorenko M.,Soloviev A., Tolkunov B., Evstigneev N., Ryabkov O

http://www.newinflow.ru/pdf/Klimov_Poster.pdf

• Axil Axil

Mills only abides questions imbued with adoration of his doctrinaire. I cannot produce that flavor of debrief..

• MorganMck

I think you should actually take a look at the site. I see nothing to confirm your assertions in his responses there. In Irvine, he took all questions some of which seemed to challenge his claims or theories.

• Axil Axil

It is not in the interest of LENR to disprove the hydrino theory since R.Mills uses this theory to effectively fund his research.

I would like to see the SunCell enter the market, but when it is found to be a LENR system, and found to produce a massive amount of muons, then the design of a liquid lead bases muon fission reactor system will be the next step in LENR reactor design.

True, all those big money guys who funded the SunCell development will be screwed but such is life.

• sam
• US_Citizen71

No I did not know what you mean! You asked a vague question.

• theBuckWheat

A previous poster had stated that he thought these units would be started once and then run until end of life. I do not think that is possible, nor even desirable. Given the amount of energy in the form of heat they must dump into the local environment, it would greatly complicate logistics until they were installed.

• gregha

Still not clear on Operability. Is the intent to keep it running constantly for 20 years, whether for domestic/industrial or for transportation? Then the in-used power gets dumped as heat? Probably not an equivalent effect to the scale of greenhouse gas-induced global warming, but I don’t want my garage becoming an oven!

• cashmemorz

Use the power generated, electrical is best to use, to run an air conditioner in the garage. The bigger problem with all this is we are all stuck in efficiency thinking mode about not having to waste energy. If it is free and or excess then we have to adjust our thinking to use what is there and not restrict our thinking, engineering wise or otherwise about what is allowed currently and what will be allowed to be done when the Suncell is everywhere and the concurrent power availability and what is allowed to be done with that power. Once we overcome that mental barrier then the answers come naturally.

• US_Citizen71

Waste not, want not! The waste heat would be perfect for heating water.

• cashmemorz

Argh…Still stuck in Fossil Fuel/AGW mentality. When AGW is stopped then “Waste not” soon becomes “why not”.

• Omega Z

Imagine each person producing 100 times more heat then they need and then include the other half of society yet to join western society.

Beijing, New York city, etc, etc.

Everyone in these big cities having their own sun cell and the heat island effect is 100`C…

Just 1 of many possible narratives or unintended consequences.

Even with everyone being responsible, I can see world energy use increasing 4 fold in the next 4 decades. What will be the consequences even if we act responsible.

• cashmemorz

The Sun Cell and other LENR tech will be introduced into the market and actually used over several decades. In that time the CO2, methane, water vapor, nitrates and whatever else is causing AGW, will be partly or mostly removed from the atmosphere of Earth. With those inward reflecting and insulating agents out of the way the excess heat will be able to radiate out into space as it did before those inward reflecting agents were around, as the situation was a couple hundred years ago before the industrial revolution and its pollutants. The problem is not so much the heat, but what prevents that heat from escaping the ecosystem. That is what AGW is all about.

• Let me ask a question, do you mount a 10 kW back-up generator IN your garage, or on a concrete pad in the back yard?

• US_Citizen71

That would depend on the fuel used. Many of the natural gas powered ones in Florida are installed inside of buildings.

• Zephir

IMO at the presence of low amount of oxygen water vapor the carbon vapor cannot condense but they will react chemically with it.

• Zephir

1) My problem rather is, the graphite could be stable in argon atmosphere at 3000 K but definitely not in presence of water vapor, which would oxidize it rapidly. Otherwise the electric arc between silver fountain electrodes will be the only place hotter than that, the structural integrity of the rest of device may not be compromised with it, if you take a look at these pictures

2) How the molten silver remains liquid (which is crucial for recycling of silver) and does not evaporate? The silver vapors will be cooled with influx of silver and they will condense at its surface. From the above picture follows, a lotta internal surface of the graphite dome will get cooled with copper heatsinks and the silver vapors will condense there too.

3) The excess of heat will indeed heat the CPV enclosure, but due to its higher diameter, this enclosure will be also cooled with radiation more effectively. Analogously if you enclose the lightbulb with aluminium foil, the surface of light bulb will not get the temperature of tungsten filament, it will remain much cooler due to its larger surface area.

• Axil Axil

My argument to refute the hydrino theory is based on power density produced by the SunCell. At 5:00 into the latest BrLP video, Mills states that the power density of light production in a few cubic millimetres of volume is 20 million watts: a trillion watts per liter. There is no why that a chemical based source of power can produce that power density. That power density must come from a nuclear source. Think LENR.

• doug marker

Axil, You have often claimed that Mill’s process is really LENR (i.e. fusion or Isotopic shift) and that Mills explanation of his own theory and invention is wrong but that you are right.

There is a very big difference between fusion/isotopic shift and chemical release of energy as per the MIlls theory and the SunCell.process.

Why do you make such claims when they fly in the face of everything MIlls claims and what we can see of the fundamental principles of chemical energy transfer ?

Have you read any of MIlls papers ? – at times it seems you haven’t. Sorry to say, but your “it is LENR” claims come across as quite odd compounded by your asserting that you know better than MIlls about his own theories and developments.

Cheers Doug

• Axil Axil

The energy that produces 20,000,000 watts of light output comes from a miniscule amount of hydrogen in a few CCs of volume. This hydrogen is reduced by 97% argon and 3 % hydrogen delusion that is further reduced by a very low pressure in that gas envelope. These numbers are stubborn things, whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.

• doug marker

Axil – here is a link to the claims made by Brilliant Light Power at their web site.
Question 1 is which part do they have wrong ? and
Question 2 is how are you able to state as a fact that the Hydrino process is Nuclear rather than chemical and that Mills has it so wrong ?

Cheers Doug

http://brilliantlightpower.com/validation-reports/

• Gerard McEk

Hi Doug, it worries me that they do say that (also) energy was measured but that they show only power figures (calometry). Why? Were the energy figures less spectacular? This is to be an apparatus that should produce energy, so show these! Short peaks of power sound spectacular but you can produce these also at home by (nearly) short-circuiting a big capacitor.
It is further not clear to me where the hydrino’s come from. Is it the 3% hydrogen in the enclosed atmosphere or does it come from the hydrated silver oxide or both? Because of that one can’t calculate if the assumed energy density comes from the hydrino conversion or that LENR must play a role.

• Axil Axil

The power density produced by the sun cell has been going up over the years. It started at 1 megawatt, then went to 5 megawatts, now it is up to 20 megawatts. The increase in power density is exponential. When will this exploding power density increase end, and these increases are found in the stainless steel low powered unit using the liquid metal electrodes. What will happen when the high powered tungsten/carbon unit is completed? How much can we expect the power density to increase?

• doug marker

Axil, Mills states the energy released at each level of the hydrino effect. I must admit I haven’t sat down with a calculator and tried to match those releases to a volume hod H that may be concerted into Hydrinos. But, I find it very hard to believe that MIlls would be making fanciful claims re what gets released in his tests.

Gerard, I will agree that we still don’t really know enough (from multiple 3rd party re-validation) to be 100% confident that the hydrino process is the full explanation.

What I am doing at the moment is working through the formation of matter in the seconds after B-B and seeing if and how Dark matter may have formed prior to H atoms emerging. If this can be explained it may be useful.

Cheers Doug

• Axil Axil

note from Comparative Energies Table

1 Lb High Explosive 240 GW (detonation at 6000 m/sec)

Cup of Gasoline 3.2 GW (explosive mixture in air)

the SunCell produces energy density 5 times greater that high explosives.

• nietsnie

Axil, although I share your incredulity, if you are correct then this would imply elemental transmutation. What do you believe is being consumed by this process?

• Jas

At 2hrs and 5ms in the presentation their head of commercial development talks about their conversations with companies who want to use the heat from the Suncell. Many of you have posted before that BLP are going down the wrong route with the PV’s. This is the first time I have heard the heat mentioned in this way. Prior to this Randy would say that the heat was not needed and would be vented off.

• Epi

BLP is not doing business with the heat but it would be stupid for the customer not to use it. The output water temperature is designed to be 80°C(?). Connecting this hot water to your central heating system is not only a possibility but a necessity in my eyes. Heating water is the most expensive thing at least in my household…getting it for free is…hmmm…attractive. I know that the suncell is not yet designed to meet the requirments of a single home, but who knows what suncell variants will be available in the (far) future.

• DrD

And, Mills claims the special cells he intends to use are over 40% efficient, but as you say “who cares” if it’s free anyway.
More of a concern to me is that it relies on gravity to recycle the silver so it’s not going to work easily where th G force will vary, e.g. cars. I heard he’s replaced the “silver switch” but haven’t seen any evidence of that.
The other issue I see is that he’s a long way from a reliable product that’s certified for us all to use.

• doug marker

To Val K and all the folks offering answers. It is really good to see such questions being asked (and so politely) and equally as good to see the very thoughtful and informative replies.

This discussion is a testament to the overall good flow of thoughts and ideas that this site encourages and has managed to sustain.

So, to you all – thanks for providing an environment where pointed questions can be asked and discussed and good answers offered.

Excellent !.

Doug Marker

• Leonard Weinstein

Val K, you are correct about the vapor pressure of the Carbon. I made the same point at a previous post, and suggested a fix: put a high temperature glass envelope or fused Silica around the sphere and include a halogen to redissolve the carbon (a variation of the Halogen cycle lamps). The glass passes the light to the CPV cells. If the Halogen does not work well on Carbon, use a Tungsten coating on the Carbon, which lowers emissivity, but works well otherwise, and has a much lower vapor pressure. The glass has to get hot enough to redissolve the coating, just as in a Halogn lamp.

• Dr. Mike

Val K.
1. The entire reaction chamber is composed of 2 graphite hemispheres that are clamped together with graphite bolts and nuts so all of the reaction chamber can withstand 4000K. Extra cooling is needed on the lower portion of the bottom hemisphere that will not be surrounded by the CPV cells both to prevent heating the components below the graphite sphere and to condense out the silver. (Note: I don’t believe the system has yet been operated where it has been outputting a large amount of heat, although the internal chamber temperature is clearly above the vaporization temperature of silver.)
2. The bottom portion of the graphite sphere will need to be cooled to condense out the silver and to prevent heating components below the graphite sphere.
3. The Geodesic Dome Array of CPV cells will be cooled with a high flow of water with an input temperature of 40C and an output flow of 80C. The proposed water flow rates are sufficient to remove all excess heat from the CPV cells (heat is removed from the backside of the CPV cells so there is no shadowing). Therefore the cooling will remove all excess heat from the top 3/4 of the of the graphite sphere that is not converted to electricity, and the cooling must remove all of the heat from the bottom quarter of the sphere that is not surrounded by the CPV cells.

You might be interested in my recent post from 1-31-2017 that discusses the BLP CPV geodesic dome array in which I conclude that the CPV array as designed should work, but not at the output levels claimed by BPL.

There are a number of subtle engineering issues that must be resolved before adding the geodesic dome array of CPV cells to the basic device, so I would have to agree with you that a the initial use of the SunCell as a steam generator would be an alternative (that probably is being considered by BPL).
Dr. Mike

• Val K

Dr. Mike

Thank you, quite comprehensive analysis. Still, I have concerns regarding cooling the lower hemisphere. Although the cooling can be applied only to lower hemisphere (which make sense to protect other part of the device), it will lower the temperature of the higher hemisphere as well. So, half of the energy produced are wasted because you do not need the lower part glow. But, due to thermo conductivity, the effective temperature of the higher hemisphere will decrease as well, thus decreasing the color temperature and the radiance/ heat ratio of the upper hemisphere. A huge portion of the produced energy will be radiated as IR, only 21% of the usable radiant energy will be converted in electricity. Overall efficiency is gonna be much below 10% . What a waste!

Another my concern that has not been addressed is the heat-resistance of the CPV itself. I explained my concerns in my comment to Husky. Will you comment? Thank you.

• Dr. Mike

Val K.
If the lower section of the graphite sphere is separated from a cooling source by some thickness of a poor heat conductor (semi-insulator) then it should be possible to maintain the temperature of this lower section at what ever temperature you choose (perhaps about 2000K?).by adjusting the thickness of the semi-insulator and the rate of cooling. Yes, this available energy is wasted, and I have never seen this wasted energy included in BLP’s potential output calculations. (I assumed only 3/4 of the sphere was producing usable output power in my 1/31/2017 post.) I believe that it won’t be too difficult to design the bottom portion cooling so that the rest of the sphere is not cooled that much.
The total amount of energy wasted as IR will not be that much relative to that wasted within the CPV cell from usable energy exceeding the bandgaps of each layer of the CPV cells. Also, the IR should mostly be reflected back to the graphite sphere, which does nothing to increase the output power, but does reduce cooling costs.
BLP will be using CPV cells that are designed to operate at 80-100C at a light intensity equivalent to 1000-1200 suns. The cooling technology already exists for CPV cells at these illumination intensities (and for cells that are up to 40% efficient). All you need is the proper water flow rate and a heat exchanger to dissipate the excess heat to maintain a constant CPV cell temperature (BLP’s target is 80C). Therefore, I don’t see cooling as an issue at least up to about 1200 suns equivalent intensity. I’m not sure about the cooling technology to get to the 3500K blackbody temperature, but I’m fairly certain that CPV technology will have to be significantly improved to achieve ~2500 suns equivalent intensity, mainly by needing to reduce the CPV cell’s internal series resistance by a factor of 2.
Dr. Mike

• Dr. Mike

One additional note to Val K. Although argon is a poor conductor of heat, there will be some additional heating of the cells due to heat conduction through the argon, especially with the close spacing between the sphere and the cells. Perhaps someone with a thermo background might make a calculation to see how much heat can be expected to be transferred by this mechanism? My guess is that this amount of heat is quite small relative to the total excess heat being generated within the cells. However, if the cells are protected by a cover glass, which would not be heat sinked, there certainly is the possibility that the cover glass temperature could get too hot.

• theBuckWheat

I think the use of this energy source to first heat a graphite sphere and then to use that to convert it to a usable light source is brilliant. This creates a closed system with no moving parts and the direct generation of usable electricity. (usable in terms of voltage). Moreover this design should have a very long Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF).

A more conventional design would require a closed loop working fluid and some way to convert heat in the working fluid to rotating mechanical energy by which to drive an alternator. Such as unit would require frequent maintenance and have a far higher capital cost. It would be physically larger as well. The economics of this would tend to boost the minimum viable unit size.

My question for Mills: Because the unit needs molten silver, how do you proposed to start up a cold (inoperative and at room temperature) unit, and how long would that take?

• deleo77

It would take some time to startup. But the startup would just be at the very beginning, when the SunCell is installed. Think of a machine (like a refrigerator) that runs all of the time. So a SunCell is never turned off. If the power that it produces is not used it just gets dumped. There is no metering, the units are leased for a flat \$90 per day. There are no emissions, so people won’t mind them running 24/7.

• theBuckWheat

There are several reasons why a unit must be able to be shut down for a cold stop. I don’t see how operating units could be shipped by common carrier simply due to the implications of having well more than 100 kw of heat to continually be vented. They could not be shipped in a closed trailer or container. They could not sit in an enclosed building. How could they be shipped any distance?

Surely the production unit must be able to sustain and manage a complete startup and shutdown cycle. The only alternative is that any unit that falls below running temperature in the field must be returned to a company depot and a functioning unit available to replace it.

• deleo77

I imagine they are working through these issues now with the heat management and sensors. I would say these items and the CPV are the biggest remaining obstacles to a working prototype. I do think that the SunCell would run at a lower state when not in use and then ramp up when it is needed. So it would run just enough to keep the silver in a molten state for 24/7. It could be like water coming out of a tap. You can have water trickle out or the faucet can be turned up for maximum output.

• Warthog

Refrigerators most definitely do NOT “run all the time”.

• deleo77

Yeah, maybe that was a bad example. Certain machines do though.

• Think: “Commercial Refrigeration”, not just the old Norge back home …

• Warthog

I can guarantee that even commercial refrigerators do not run all the time. I grew up in a rural area which had a community commercial refrigerator for bulk food storage. That unit had about six individual compressors, and those compressors cycled on an off quite frequently. They were pretty heavy duty, and when one cut on or off there was a quite noticeable “sound surge”, which impressed me as I was a little kid at the time.

• Dr. Mike

The silver is being melted using induction heating. It looks like to me they are using microwave energy to pre-heat the graphite sphere by using copper loop antennas that are moved out of the way after the plasma begins to provide the heating for the graphite sphere. If this is actually true, then it would seem that the geodesic dome would have to be lowered into place after the graphite sphere is initially heated. Not having the geodesic dome in a fixed position at system start up would seem to create a number of engineering challenges- flexible electrical connections, flexible cooling lines, and the mechanism for lowering the geodesic dome. I assume that BPL has a solution to the problem of starting up the system once the CPV array is added, but this has not been discussed in any of their presentations yet.

• What I really like is that BLP and all the other players are facing deadlines, self-imposed or forced by others. Things are coming to a head all across the LENR/Hydrino landscape.

BLP is loud and proud with a public plan. If they flame out, that’s it for them. If they convert, then WOW!

Rossi has to show all his cards this summer at trial. Is he a fraud? Promises to unveil the QuarkX too.

Brillouin has to please investors having just landed a \$7M round B with a round C coming up. No way they could fake it for much longer if they are faking.

Industrial Heat asserts funding of 6 parallel LENR research efforts that look promising and are hosting the next ICCF. They will have to put up or shut up.

This long, winding and often utterly confusing story is finally coming to a conclusion in 2017. Let’s all hope for a happy ending. I don’t care which company wins, as long as one of them does.

• interstellar hobo

Rossi doesnt have to show anything by summer. Something will come up, or the test will be just almost complete enough to continue to stumble forward. He’s set dates in the past. he’s mentioned having customers that to date have never been shown to exist. I used to believe him. Now I just watch and wait.

• The summer reference is to the trial date. Assuming there is no settlement, much will be learned.

• interstellar hobo

We’ve learned very little from previous ones. I used the Wright Brothers analogy before but it really does look like whatever it was Rossi had, he’s getting enmired in legal action while everyone else is moving on. I hope he’s legit and really is on to something, but I mostly check in her to read non-Rossysays news, now.

• doug marker

Enjoyed your comments – nice – re coming to a conclusion in 2017, am inclined to re-phrase that for myself as
“Looking like coming to a new beginning (epoch) in 2017/8” 🙂

Cheers Doug

• Veblin

Brilliant Light Power’s February 28th, 2017 Irvine, CA – Roadshow

• sam

Impressive presentation.
Hay T.D and A.R. this is
how it’s done.

• tlp
• MorganMck

Thanks tip. This is a good article for those who want a little more historical context for Dr. Mills technical journey and the physics-related issues and opportunities behind the SunCell.

• sam
• LindbergofSwed

He really believes in his product:
“…world changing technology and a company anticipating hyper-growth over the next 24 months.”

• Husky

1. Its a graphite dome – why would it not withstand 3000K? The vaporization point would be around 4000K+

2. Good point – however Mills states that at a certain point, the silver vapor pressure gets high enough to make the reaction self sustaining, so you can even turn off the pumps completely. So the molten silver pumps are only required for starting the operation, and the fact that silver doesnt liquidify anymore is even benefitial.

3. Masimo stated that their specially designed CPV cells (which also reflect back the light that was not converted – which will increase the efficiancy even more) will have an efficiancy above 40% which is very competitive to the use of turbines and the carnot cycle. In addition to the smaller footprint you will also have 0 moving parts which will increase the durability of the sun cell a lot.

There is still the issue with cooling the unit – especially when it will run on full power (3000K) but since you can also run it at lower temperatures, and the COP is infinite anyway (once the reaction gets self sustaining) it doesnt really matter. It will just decrease the power density but the power density is anyway higher than any other non nuclear Power source.

• LindbergofSwed

As I understand there hasn’t been any demo with more power out then in?
Why not a demo with a small COP with standard CPV cells so people can see it is not just a fancy theory?

• Jas

They did surround an early version with cells. This was several years ago before the suncell was developed. They connected the cells to an LED bulb and the bulb flickered. It wasnt a particually spectacular video but it showed the promise.

• Leonard Weinstein

If you know the temperature of the Carbon shell you can be sure about the intensity and spectral content. The output is near black body for Carbon as quoted, with an emissivity over 0.9. There is no need for a demo, except to show that issues about construction and waste heat have been managed, and for longevity tests.