Thoughts on LENR Based on ICCF20 Reports (Zeddicus23)

The following comment was submitted by Zeddicus23

I’m not sure where is the best place to post this but I’ve been reading Jean-Paul Biberian’s summaries of the ICCF20 talks ( and I have a few thoughts on LENR.

(1) Several talks indicate that the optimum temperature for excess heat is around 300 C. A claim has also been made that this corresponds to a wavelength for deuterium which “matches” the lattice. I’ll leave this aside for now since this corresponds to a wavelength of around 1 Angstrom for protium, and I don’t quite see how this matches the lattice. Also, the dependence of wavelength lambda = h/sqrt(3 m kT) on temperature is relatively weak.

(2) Several talks (Celani, Takahashi) indicate that the reaction is a non-equilibrium process and only occurs when driving H/D into or out of the system. This could be via a pressure change in the gas, a mechanical shock, heating up or cooling down, or last but not least EM or electrical stimulation or pulses. The latter could provide “non-equilibrium shocks” via local heating or charged particle (p, H-) acceleration or motion through an interface or defect, or even magnetostriction. This is also consistent with Brillouin, as well as with Fralick’s results and Piantelli’s statements.

(3) Item 2 above also suggests that defects (e.g. nanocracks) and/or the surface may play an important role, since it is through the “surface” (broadly defined to include the boundaries of cracks etc.) that the H/D can be “pushed” through. (A lot of this is I believe also consistent with F&P type Pd/D electrolysis experiments.)

(4) The fluctuation/non-equilibrium idea is also consistent with Vysotskii’s ideas of oscillating nanocracks creating a coherent state, and perhaps also consistent with Storms’ nanocrack idea.

(5) For metals at least (as opposed to say bacteria) attaining sufficient fluctuations may require higher temperatures (e.g. 300 C or higher) and also nano or micro structures, which may be dynamic, either at the surface or near the proper defects. This is also consistent with Rossi’s “microtubules”, Clean Planet’s micro/nanostructures, Miley’s nanoparticles, Swartz’s Nanor’s. In particular, it might explain why Swartz’s Nanors work so well (even though the heat output is very small due to the small size). The optimum temperature might be related to a competition between the thermal wavelength of protium (which decreases with increasing temperature) and the need for sufficient thermal fluctuations (which increase with increasing temperature).

(6) There is a related idea of Dubinko involving solitons or large amplitude/energy nonlinear oscillations. I imagine that these could also play a role.

(7) Somewhat unrelated but Peter Gluck (and also Focardi, Piantelli etc.) have emphasized that for Ni/H systems, a high-temperature “degassing” period in a very high vacuum is necessary to “clean” the system of impurities which could either “trap” the H or not allow it to penetrate into the Ni. I’m not sure if Celani/Takahashi/MFMP are all doing this but I imagine that a number of their preparation procedures may be comparable.

I guess a lot of this has been speculated before but it’s nice to see some of these ideas being confirmed experimentally at ICCF20. Also, while I had previously thought of “shocks” as “compressing” or inputting large amounts of energy locally (to overcome for example the Coulomb barrier) I had not thought of this in terms of driving H/D through the system via non-equilibrium conditions. Also, perhaps because I would have expected them to be random, I had not connected the idea of non-equilibrium fluctuations with Vysotskii’s correlated states ideas.

I would appreciate any thoughts, comments, or insight (especially from those who are at ICCF20 but not excluding those who are not).


  • Stephen

    Did Norman Cook present a paper? I’m just rereading his book and always find his ideas interesting. Did his presentation reveal any new ideas that might be applicable to the e-cat?

  • greggoble

    Thanks Zeddicus23

    This LENR review, from Sept. 28, might be of interest to you. I read it in its’ entirety at the local (S.F.) main library and find it to be fascinating.

    Low Energy Nuclear Reaction (LENR) – Sustainable and Green Energy: A Review

    September 28, 2016
    Advances in Heat Transfer, Flow Engineering and Energy Installations: Low Energy Nuclear Reaction (LENR) – Sustainable and Green Energy: A Review


    The LENR are successfully carried out with various elements namely; nickel, gold, palladium, platinum, titanium, certain superconducting ceramics, etc. -end quote

    Also, just for a bit of fun…

    As I predicted (on a hunch) due to all the talk about heavy electrons and electron clouds; indeed both LENR Electric and LENR Thermal devices are being developed.

    From an old article, 2012:
    “Cold Fusion NASA LENR Part Three Spacebound and Earthbound Transportation” 31 July 2012 – gbgoble

    Cold Fusion – LENR Engineering

    NASA, Bushnell, states that the science and engineering encompassing cold fusion/LENR is…


    …not a narrow band set of physical phenomena” and that“devices are being engineered in real time” -end quotes

    With 3-D printing and nano engineering being utilized to create the lattice; we will see many unique devices entering the marketplace, both thermal and electrical (hardy, robust, and scalable), for every imaginable application.

    One might posit that two categories of ‘cold fusion’ devices will gain hold in their respective markets:

    LENR/Thermal – heat without a carbon footprint
    LENR/Electric – electricity without a generator

    • hunfgerh

      Paper Title:
      Low Energy Nuclear Reaction (LENR) – Sustainable and Green Energy: A Review

      “The purpose is to bring together two nuclei at low energy to fuse together as a single nucleus.”
      No! Independent from the way – the Input-/Output-energy for a single fusionreaction:
      Proton + Proton or
      Proton + Neutron (Neutron via Proton e-capture) –
      is always the tham.
      The value of produced energy is only dependend from the reaction rate.

      • hunfgerh

        “is always the tham.”
        Please replace tham by same

  • greggoble
  • Axil Axil

    “the reaction is a non-equilibrium process”

    A non-equilibrium process is an action that must be feed energy to keep the process going. Your toaster is a non-equilibrium process. The toaster needs power to keep it hot.

    A balance between power loss and power applied is required to keep the non-equilibrium process stable. The process of power loss is called dispersion.

    Rossi has had a hard time balancing the non-equilibrium process of LENR between loss and gain. This balancing act is called control.

  • sam

    From Ego Out blog.

    At the gala dinner at Sendai it was announced that the next ICCF21 will take place in June 2018 at Raleigh (North Caroline) organized by Industrial Heat. In May 2017 it will be organized a workshop at Sienna in Italy.

    I guess I.H. must still be interested in
    Also that it is a workshop in Italy in 2017
    is interesting.
    Does anyone know who runs the ICCF ?

    • Zeddicus23

      Siena is the home of Francisco Piantelli. So the workshop should be interesting. I have read that IH is discreetly funding a number of other LENR researchers besides Rossi. Perhaps this is one of the reasons they were selected to host?

      P.S. I’m looking forward to hearing more of the results presented at Sendai. I’m especially interested to learn more about Celani’s results.

    • Freethinker

      To be honest, the world is awry.
      Why should IH host ICCF21?

      It will lend IH undeserved academic credibility, but will do the contrary to ICCF.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Like asking a fox to organize a chicken convention.

    • pg

      This is actually good news to me (with respect of stealing Rossi’s technology). They got nothing so they are desperate to find something that works.

  • builditnow

    Frank, the MFMP Glowsticks were vacuumed out to a very low vacuum, but, I don’t think there was any heating while the vacuum was applied. If not, it could be fairly easy to add the heat during vacuuming. I could be wrong as I was only peripherally involved.
    I appreciate your summary.

  • Ged

    Nice summary analysis, thank you.

  • David Fojt

    What’s up ??????????

    • Anonymous

      Central Intelligence Agency to host ICCF at!
      Where do i sign up?