Analyzing E-Cat Plant Pump Photos Indicate COP>1 (Engineer48)

There are a couple of new posts from Engineer48 that provide a new way of looking at possible COP from the Doral E-Cat Plant that I thought were worthy of a new post.

To further show the COP = 1 claim is not correct, we can see the 24 computer controlled pumps that are set to 18kg/h flow (well 22 are set to max and 2 are set to 50%). That gives a total flow from those 24 pumps (6 pumps per each Tiger slab reactor) of (24 x 18) – 18 = 414kg/hr. Assuming the total flow into the reactors was 1,500kg/hr, that leaves 1,086kg/hr to be provided by the main pump.

Even if the only pumps operational were the 24 x 18kg/hr pumps, the COP would be 414kg/hr / 30kg/hr (COP 1) = 13.8.

Who needs a flow meter when we can read the flow volume manually programmed into the 24 x 18kg/hr pumps?

BTW at 30kg/hr total flow at COP = 1, 5 of the 6 pumps in each row would need to be turned off and the remaining pump set to maintain a flow of 7.5kg/hr. But as you can clearly see all of the 24 pumps have a GREEN light on that indicates the pump is operating as programmed at 18kg/hr.

Would seem the COP = 1 claim is “BUSTED”

e482

 

==============================================================

20kWh/h is still a significant amount of heat to dissipate. As I’m not a thermal engineer and have no coal face experience with 20kW heat dissipators I’ll let other give their opinion.

What I do know is the flow for COP = 1 would need to be 30kg/hr of water into the 4 x Tiger/slab reactors (7.5kg/hr into each Tiger/slab reactor).

From photographic evidence it is clear that there were 6 x 18kg/hr pumps on each Tiger for a total of 24 pumps. That same photographic evidence shows the 24 pumps all in Green status and delivering 18kg/hr of flow except for 2 that were set to 50% or 9kg/hr. If the computer controlled pumps were not delivering the programmed flow, Yellow and Red warning lights would be flashing to indicate a flow error. But all we see are Green lights showing the pumps are working OK and delivering the flow they are set to deliver.

This is then a total flow of 414kg/hr or a COP of 13.8. The rest of the 1,086kg/hr flow needed to deliver a COP = 50 was delivered by a master pump.

This photo would suggest the claimed COP = 1 is false and that the ECat reactor delivered at least 276kWh/h just from the flow of the topping up pumps.

Have attached a plant schematic I created from the photographic evidence that shows how the master pump and the individual reactor topping up pumps were arranged and operated. This schematic is not conjecture as it is based on the released photographs.

If there was no customer, the heat dissipators in the JMP area would need to discharge at least 276kWh/h of heat or around 1/2 of the 500kWh/h that the heat dissipators in the October 2011 1MW ECat reactor test.

It would be very noisy in the whole warehouse, due to the concrete walls and floor. Yet it was not and the topping up pump lights stayed Green as they delivered 414kg/hr to the reactors.

e481

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Roseland, you seem to always be hedging your bet, get off the fence and read what E47 and friends are saying about Rossi tech on this site. And, if you cannot make up you mind, just be quiet and listen, we understand if you just can’t make up your mind, so please do not waste our time.

    • roseland67

      Bernie,
      Have not made any bets, not hedging anything, there is simply NOT enough valid, replicated data to make an informed decision.

      When new data becomes available, I will reassess.

  • LarryJ

    IH’s contention that the plant was moved to avoid supervision is just a contention. Rossi contends it was moved because after 1 year IH failed to get operating permits which sounds a lot more real world to me. Rossi also contends that IH offered him cash to halt the test early, which if true, shows a deliberate effort by IH to put things on the back burner.

    IH’s claim of no excess power is also a hotly debated contention although your strong statement on that point implies no doubt and that your mind is already made up.

    Whether or not Fabiani was the only IH resource on site I don’t know. At this point you can believe Rossi or you can believe IH. Time will tell but someone here once quipped.

    The lineup of experts Rossi fooled has become embarrassingly long.

    That would appear to be not a contention.

  • Steve Swatman

    It would seem that important distinction is all yours, maybe if you pointed to specifics Engineer48 might give you personally some more details, at least that would that you giving his efforts the attention they deserve rather than than just throwing blankets statements and complaining about your comments not appearing. You know, because Engineer48 really seems to be putting in a awful lot of effort, compared to you or I.

    And I for one really appreciate his work, and demand nothing from him for his efforts.

    • TomR

      Well said Steve Swatman, if Bruce_H is not a troll he might be a lot happier if he frequented a different website.

      • Steve Swatman

        I consider some commentors to be like the people who bring their uncontrolled kids to the theater and eat chips from a noisy bag, talk all the way through the show and then complain because no one explained the story to them.

  • Steve Swatman

    Bruce, bruce, bruce, he has told you many times that he is contact with Mr Rossi and leonardo on a business basis, that he worked in the field and he appears to offer evidence for every deduction,reasoning and even guesswork.

    You either accept him for what he appears to be or you dont.

    if you require such distinctions, you would then require proof and you would then proof of the proof.

  • LarryJ

    IH built the 1 year test reactor and it’s core so I have assumed they would have other engineering resources besides Fabiani. How about the one whose name appears on IH’S patent application for the ecat. IH/Cherokee would surely have access to trusted engineering resources and we know they supplied support for the 1 year test.

    My original point was that IH are fully capable and have the resources to build 1MW ecat reactors and like Rossi they are probably doing so now. At this point they need to hustle and grab as much market share as they can. The patent war will run for years and will have no effect on industrialization of the ecat by Leonardo and IH.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Roseland, You are calling Jones Day “rummy’s”? “Ranked among the world’s most integrated law firms and best in client service”. I bet their bill does not reflect your disparaging remarks.

  • Guru Khalsa

    Apparently i am not the only one whom likes a little drama in the story.

    Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax to LENR G 15 days ago:

    ‘Penon, seeing the counterclaim: “I’m outa here.”

    Fabiani “Me too!”

    Johnson:”Shit! Andrea, you told me this would be fine”

    Rossi:”I never said that. You lie.”‘

  • http://www.libertynewspost.com/ Liberty Newspost
  • http://www.libertynewspost.com/ Liberty Newspost

    How are you calculating the Coefficient of Performance (COP) without stating the output and return Temperatures? What temperature was the the output set at? What was the return temperature? What type of heat exchanger? Once you know the flow rate of the water (or Propylene Glycole?) and the amount of electricity being used, calculating the COP can be accomplished. COP = Power Output/ Power Input.

    • Ged

      Temp out for the plant is reported by IH as averaging over 9 months at 102.8 C as water steam. Temp in was averaging around 68.7 C water. We don’t know any numbers for the customer side, and the heat exchangers have not been photo shared with us by anyone yet. Power consumption for the time was not reported by IH, but from the power bill Mats got his hands on awhile ago it was around 20 kWh/h. Unknown if that is a typical number or not as it is only one data point, so don’t read too much into it.

  • LarryJ

    Rossi stated recently that during the 1 year test he took the night shift and IH managed the plant during the day. I tried to find the reference but unfortunately RossiLiveCat.com has removed the link that allows a download of the entire comment history and only the last couple of weeks are now available. JONP is very difficult to search. Rossi has also made other comments that IH monitored the plant continuously. Regrets that I can’t search for them.

  • Ged

    Why single him out? Should this not be the case for everyone? I’ve had to push back on a dearth of baseless statements for which no facts corroborrate, and it really gets annoying after awhile.

  • Engineer48

    Hi Bruce,

    Maybe talk to Frank about making your account non moderated. Not my call.
    .

  • Ged

    I’ve noticed that happen to your posts and mine sometimes. It does make communication occasionally asynchronous. In fact, I have this page open on two different devices and browsers freshly loaded, and one sees this post of yours and the other doesn’t. I have no idea how that could be, but such is the mystery of Disqus it seems.

  • Engineer48

    Abd,

    Someone had fed you false data.

    West end of the 40ft container contained the central 4 x Tiger/ slab prime reactors. The East end contained the 51 BlueCat backup reactors.

    Both manufactured by IH.

    See attached.
    .
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7b221a5bce405649fb243e4b0400a9c1f082d7da4dfdd8502f8a407544027e1f.jpg

  • Ged
  • Engineer48

    Hi Roselands,

    Do you understand what billions of $$s of stranded assets do to a public energy company’s share price?
    .

    • roseland67

      48?

      Uhm, yeah,

      Read my posts on Discuss re: automotive internal combustion engines, battery powered cars,
      autonomous driving,
      (what do you think the Teemsters think about this).
      Talk about stranded assets, mercy.
      (Which, by the way, anyone anywhere can see everyday)
      and decentralized power distribution.

      LENR is just not ready otherwise you WOULD see Senators and Congressmen writing laws about why it can’t be done.
      IH, is a fly on an elephants rear in the world of political graft and corruption.
      Not one single person on this board ever even heard of them before Rossi got involved.
      Just ain’t gonna happen the way you suggest.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Roselands.

        If and I say if I can get the necessary standards and other safety certifications, which I believe can do, my E48 Black Box Lenr reactor will be made available to system integrators.
        .

  • Ged

    The photos show it. The one from the central view with Rossi shows the steam pipe does not exit to the left in the image Engineer posted above, and instead bends away and runs along the side being fed by the small “perimeter” reactors (the flow is from those reactors, and then bending into the perpendicular steam pipe). Meanwhile, the arrow on the pipe is pointing to the right in the image posted above. So, given the pipes exit the container as we see in the outside view (not obstructing the doors, so coming out the side), and the pipe does not exit to the left of the view above, it must be exiting to the right of the view above in line with the marked direction of flow (which is also the correct height for the external view).

    So, not a guess, as I am able to reach the same conclusion with the photo evidence.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Yes, this “obscure group of venture capitalists” are spending millions on the best law firm and the best propaganda company in the world. Do you think these millions are coming from this small “obscure group of venture capitalists”. Roseland, you are simply naive, how old are you?

  • Ged

    No, the central arrangement is part of the same plant. Take a look http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54e38c6ce4b0b6d75a4175a7/54e3ca09e4b0af154d1539a3/54e3ca39e4b015ce3b5f8201/1424215217471/ecat+MW1-USA+Andrea+checking.jpg?format=500w . You can see the side arrangement from this view.

    Meanwhile, take a look: http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54e38c6ce4b0b6d75a4175a7/54e3ca09e4b0af154d1539a3/54e3ca33e4b015ce3b5f81b7/1424215065920/ecat+MW1-USA+team+at+working.jpg?format=500w . You can see the central arrangement from this view (blocking view of the container doors).

  • Engineer48

    Hi Gregory,

    The flow numbers you can see are not measured flow numbers but are the target flow values programmed into the pumps. Plus the pumps have 3 coloured leds to indicate the state of the pump being:

    Green: everything is OK and the programmed flow is being achieved.

    Yellow: there may be a problem and please see this display.

    Red: Houston we have a problem.

    As you can see all the pumps are showing Green status.

  • Engineer48

    Hi Abd,

    Fail as the 2 x 1MW reactors were arranged like this.
    .

  • Engineer48

    Hi My2c

    Pardon but the 1MW test on 28 Oct 2011 had 4 pumps that serviced all the reactors, with no individual reactor topping up pumps.

    But no there are no pictures of the main pumps but there are pictures of the individual BlueCat pumps and the 6 x Tiger topping up pumps.

    Neither of which could supply the total require flow but could supply a flow that was well above COP = 1 flow.

    Here are the 20kW BlueCat topping up pump and reactor water level sensor images.

    If you wish I can supply the appropriate 250kW Tiger reactor images.
    .

  • Bruce__H

    There is something I don’t understand about the photos at the top of the thread. Where are they supposed to be from? Are we looking inside of the shipping container in the Doral facility? I thought that all other photos of the equipment in that shipping container showed the ecat units on the outside walls — not in the centre as here..

    • Ged

      The container is the long variety, and you can even see the seam on the ground in the lowest picture between the two “halves”. The other pictures we have of the techs working on the side walls of E-cats is from one end, and you can see this centered rack, which blocks the view of the container doors of the opposite end. It’s all the same place. If you look carefully at the bottom picture, you can see the end of one of the side wall E-cat racks.

      This center rack is the Tigers (easiest to see that from the other view), and the side wall racks are the backups.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Ged,

        Yup the 2 1MW reactors were arranged like this.
        .

        • Engineer48

          main steam pipe is seen here.

          Note the size and that it exits stage Right toward the North wall of the warehouse at the middle of the 40ft dual reactor container with the 51 x 20kW BlueCats reactors at the West end and the 4 x Tiger 250kW reactors at the East end.

      • Bruce__H

        So the 36-pump end is the end with the reactors that were meant to carry the main heating load during the operation of the Doral plant?

        What end do the large pipes emerge from (the ones that are supposed to carry steam across to the customer)?

  • Omega Z

    Unless you have money on the line, Rossi doesn’t owe you or anyone a demonstration. Beyond that, Rossi could perform the perfect demo and people would still have issues. Rossi was involved if nothing else. They need an independent 3rd party test. Should a perfect independent 3rd party test be performed, then the claim would be they were tainted by Rossi when he instructed them on how to do the test..

    Seriously Andy. The other day you were pumping up your educational background and then you come up with this.

  • Engineer48

    Guys,

    Is there anybody that has a copy the JMP electricity account?

    I believe there may be very valuable data to mine out of that image.
    .

    • Ged

      So far all I know of is http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/24/mats-lewan-receives-an-electric-bill-for-1mw-test-customer/ . I don’t think we’ve seen a picture, but Mats would have it.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Ged,

        We need someone who downloaded that image to share it as I believe there are data to mine.
        .

    • wpj

      Mats has a copy of the first bill, but took it down from his site rapidly as it was “in confidence”. Apparantly had COP 24 hand written on it.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Wpj,

        Yes I understand that but surely someone did a download?
        .

        • wpj

          Not that we know of, sadly………………………..

          Maybe Mats could give you some info in confidence?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Wpj,

            Need the info in the public arena as I believe there is very significant gold to mine.
            .

  • Omega Z

    There are over a half a million commercial/industrial businesses in the U.S. alone that use low grade heat/steam. Several million more that aren’t included with that. It’s a huge market.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    More secret batteries under the floor and trick plugs, come on get serious.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Or, they are deliberately trying to delay the implementation of LENR

  • LarryJ

    Don’t forget that IH built the 1MW test reactor including the core under Rossi’s supervision and they had engineers on site for the entire 1 year test run. That means they know very well how to build an ecat capable of cop 50. IH have also filed a patent for the ecat claiming a share in the IP so they can argue that they are not infringing on Leonardo’s IP. You refer to the ecat as obsolete but at a likely cop of 50 most industrial customers will be quite happy with IH’s offering even if it is too clunky to power your toaster.

    I think right now that IH are doing the same as Rossi. They are selling prototypes under nda and deciding on a final design to mass produce. In the end there will be 2 major suppliers of ecat reactors and the resulting competition will benefit us all. It appears similar to the patent fight between Apple and Samsung where Samsung borrowed heavily from Apple’s smartphone IP. That patent fight ran 7 years and we all benefited. The Leonardo/IH patent war will run for many years as well and we will all benefit.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Rossi cannot get out of the way of his own success, he does not want to mass produce a product that will be obsolete six months after it is introduced. The problem is he cannot predict when his “advanced” product will be ready.

      • Omega Z

        Bernie, there will be multiple product types. Each will have it’s own economic advantage.

        • Engineer48

          Hi OmegaZ,

          Yes I agree with you.
          .

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          Omega, You might be right, but just yesterday Rossi said he wants to incorporate his current research into the district heating e-cat.