Rossi: ‘Distributed Heat Will be the Start’

I asked Rossi about a topic he had brought up some weeks ago, to find out what his current thinking/plans were for district heating:

Frank Acland
August 17, 2016 at 1:36 PM
Dear Andrea,

A few weeks ago you said you thought the first commercial application for the industrial E-Cat plants would be in the field of centralized or district heating. Has this changed, or do you still feel this way, and if so are you already working in this area?

Thank you,
Frank Acland

Andrea Rossi
August 17, 2016 at 2:04 PM
Frank Acland:
Yes, the distributed heat will be the start. I will give the details when it will be in operation.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

It’s interesting to me that he says that he won’t provide details until the system is in operation. It would be impressive if he could announce a project that was already underway. There’s no indication here when this might happen, but if he’s thinking for providing district heating for the coming winter (in the northern hemisphere) they would need to be getting everything in place right now. My guess is that the first operational system will probably be in Sweden (non IH territory) given the current lawsuit.

  • Private Citizen

    Has MFMP replicated LENR+ yet, or do they number among your ignorant multitudes after so many tests?

  • LarryJ

    Once Rossi starts selling small reactors in large numbers his full IP will be out in the open for anybody to reverse engineer. Rossi has said he will only do that once his factories are in place and he is in a position to beat anyone on cost. In the meantime he will only sell large reactors to industrial customers who can provide a full time technician and most importantly a physically secure site.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Larry,

      Just maybe if the USPTO allowed LENR / Cold Fusion patents many companies would enter the market place as then they would not need massive production to protect their IP.

      So is the bad guy here the USPTO and not Rossi?
      .

    • roseland67

      Larry,

      If Rossi has what he says he has,
      Exxon would buy one for $1.5 million, (loose change for them),
      take it apart, reverse engineer it, patent it and start selling all of their oil assets, but they’re not,
      are they?

      • LarryJ

        Rossi does vet all of his “pioneer” customers and since he only builds a few reactors a year I think it is safe to say that Exxon would not make the short list.

  • Ophelia Rump

    $

    And a modicum of human decency.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      But the model and business environment has to exist before what you claim will work.
      However in “most” technologies, they progress from a larger centralised model to that of a smaller one.

      The computer industry is a perfect example. Due to cost, then such machines were large and centralised. Heck even when the Apple laser printer came out they were rather expensive. So we saw a ton of small graphics and desktop publishing shops spring up in which you could create your documents, but then go to that shop to use the expensive laser printer. When such printers became more affordable, then many of those shops went by the way side.

      Same goes for computers – large and centralized and SHARING OF that resource justified the investment and spread it over many people.

      We don’t (yet) have a low cost ecat. So with a high initial cost, then your “small” cost and size market penetration model does not yet work because it does not yet exist.

      Thus the only way to raise funds and sell energy is to adopt some industrial process or something like centralized heating.

      So sure, early computers were tailored to those customers with deep pockets since the technology had not yet matured.

      I see really no difference in regards to the ecat. Consumer type heating systems are not yet practical – the exception to this is the quark – but again, raising of money etc. will heed over to larger and custom type applications until such time the technology can scale out with “smaller” and low cost devices to a larger market.

      So while the business model you propose makes sense, such progressions of technology near always follow the larger and custom projects to in turn fund the next generation of technology until such time mass market products become a reality. I not aware of technologies that “skipped” this first step.

      So until lower cost mass produced devices occur, the practical and logical progress of this new technology will seek out the fastest return for the least effort – very much like the computer industry did.

      First customers of computers were business – it took considerable time for the computer to become a consumer item.

      However, since heating etc. is already in place for consumers, then adoption of LENR devices can occur at breakneck speeds. A great example would be adoption of the refrigerators. However, before consumer refrigerators became common, in small towns you would often find in the basement of a major store or hotel a large refrigeration system with “many” boxes strung along side each other like lockers that could be rented out by people to store their food. As refrigerators became more common, then this renting out of shared refrigerators to consumers fell by the wayside.

      It is interesting but it was only a few years ago I learned of these “shared” refrigerator systems. I was visiting some folks and the owner of the bar in a small town hotel brought me down to the basement to show me the old system and the rows of “boxes” all driven from one large compressor system and how town folk could rent out a “box” to freeze their food. So be it computers, refrigerators, or the ecat, then larger customers is the path of least resistance and the quickest way to monetize the technology to creating revenue.

      Same goes for those who started all those corner “desktop” publishing stores – all you needed was a laser printer and a computer. As soon as computers and laser printers dropped in cost, then those small shops closed their doors – just like those hotels and stores that had were sharing and renting out refrigeration systems in their basements.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

  • Ophelia Rump

    Except that it is not anti anything, people have been lied to about the subject under a different name and now they are not even told about it.

    Once speech has been monitized, it is no longer free.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Yes, the different name is “being responsible”.

    • kdk

      I have personally sent all of this information to professors at my hometown university and written to energy companies with facts in hand that should at least pique interest. They deserve to be behind the curve if they don’t bother to think for themselves. In a very profound way, the world thoroughly deserves its current situation, and it has taken the inaction and willful ignorance of billions of people for it to remain as it is. People who behave as children deserve to be treated like them.

      • Thomas Kaminski

        And what was the response?

        • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Agaricus

          You can probably guess the answer. In the absence of any openly installed LENR-based product, the response – none – is unvarying.

  • John Littlemist

    Financial aid is not military aid IMO. And if Finland received any arms from the US at that time, they were bought in hard cash, AFAIK.

  • LilyLover

    Because I need a silent car that powers my 24kW high power computing gadgets unlike those who need flying palaces.

  • sam

    From Lenr forum
    axil
    User Avatar
    Verified User
    Yesterday, 10:28pm
    At the current stage of the E-Cat’s development, it behaves like a large coal fired steam boiler. The E-Cat cannot respond to heat on demand and must produce heat at a constant level. While Rossi is developing a more responsive control method, any application that can use a constant production of steam based heat should be met by the E-Cat. District heating

    • Ophelia Rump

      This is just silly talk, The plants are made up of multiple reactors, they do not all need to be energized all the time.

      • DrD

        Well said and where does the suggestion that the new industrial E-cats can’t be regulated come from?
        Certainly AR said the Quarks can be turned of and on very rapidly and he also said that they learned much during the 1 year trial and apllied this to the new ones.

        • Engineer48

          Hi DrD,

          The October 2011 ECat reactor ran for 5 hours in SSM mode without anybody doing any adjustments.

          That 2011 era ECat reactor and the control system was built 4 years earlier that the 2015 ECat reactor and control system.
          .

    • Rene

      I think axil is being kind. My reframing of this announcement is that to date Rossi has not worked out how to drive the e-cats reliably other than in steady state heat generation and transfer scenarios. So, while he still tinkers with the control methods, yes, running a nearly constant load works well with what he has so far.
      That warm-cat tech will likely never be suitable for domestic use with its volatile power demands, so I do not expect to see my domestic e-cat order fulfilled for many years. His excitement about the quark is that (and I speculate) he’s found them controllable over a wide range of power output.
      At this point if he can demonstrate a constant output system that runs well in actual heating scenarios, and if he permits inspection, that would be a great for his industrial tech and decent jump start in the new fire.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Rene,

        I expect the domestic ECat will feed hot water into the customer’s existing hot water tank which will buffer the demand curve and allow the ECat to track.

        Cold mains water feed
        V
        Domestic ECat
        V
        Hot water fed into the normal cold water inlet of the water heater
        V
        Existing water heater
        V
        Hot water to customer load
        .

        • Omega Z

          The Lt E-cat takes an hour to start and to stop.
          In commercial/industrial settings where fluids are heated, this is not a new issue as it exists with the current fossil energy systems. In addition, commercial/industrial processes tend to be of a continious nature 24/7 or set periods of time. Nearly everything or situation can be scheduled or engineered around.

          Worst case, (integrated or hybrid) LENR/Fossil energy setup.

          This is what Rossi spoke of for residential E-cat use. The E-cat would be used for base load and fossil energy for peak periods minimizing waste and inconvenience.

          One could build to peak demand and dump the excess, but in many zones, the heat island effect could easily become intolerable. There’s also the cost of waste. Example: I bought large quantities of food in bulk and saved 25%. However, 50% of it spoiled before I could use it, thus my savings turned into a net loss. One could also build storage capacity, but this cost could easily exceed energy savings.

          I believe Rossi thinks the Quark can circumvent these issues. Being of increments of 100 watts and state/stop in minutes or seconds can easily scale/ramp power up and down as needed with little waste or inconvenience in real time.

          If necessary, one could use a battery to smooth start/stop periods. As this battery would experience minimal charge/discharge cycles(over weeks verses daily), the cost factor then becomes the physical life of the battery instead of number of cycles.

          • Engineer48

            Hi OmegaZ,

            And your source is.

            As I see the issue it is about the thermal mass of the ECat. Take for example a BlueCat as used as backup in the recent 1 year trial. Say 0.5×0.5×0.4m or 0.1m^3. If 50% was reactor the rest is 0.05m^3 or 50 ltr of water plus reactor mass of say 80kg. So 130kg of mass to heat. That is a lot of thermal mass to get hot & then cool.

            However a domestic ECat that heated the cold water flowing into the water tank is a very different design and would have very little reactor thermal mass, so it could ramp up fairly quickly to heat the water flow.

            However I have no doubts about the very significant regulatory issues around installing a NUCLEAR hot water heater. I would suggest the main enginerring issues are regulatory and not so much time to heat the water flow.
            .

            • Rene

              His source and my source are the comments and charts Rossi stated and published some years ago. Notwithstanding the ‘nuke’ scare issues (that’s just FUD), it’s getting clear that to meet quick heat demand cycles, something like a quark is needed. The warm cat doesn’t cut ot for domestic use other than, perhaps in places where the thing is on for more that several hours. So, a heat pump in mostly hot or humid places or direct heat in mostly cold places.
              Looking at the productization timescales (all speculative because secrecy), the industrial use of a warm cat is far more likely than domestic. Further the quark development, which fits better for domestic usage, an have time to mature while the LENR safety issues get settled.

        • Rene

          E48, read what OmegaZ wrote. Especially important is this: “…The Lt E-cat takes an hour to start and to stop…”
          The problem with using a low-temp e-cat domestically, is that for domestic water heating, the cycle time to make up hot water draw is less than an hour for gas or electric water heaters. It just doesn’t work well for that application. OK, so that might be mitigated by requiring a larger tank, say a 100-200 gallon tank instead of the usual 50 gallon one. But doing that raises the cost a lot. There would be a smallish market for converting solar hot water heating systems – reuse the large 100-200 gallon tank and heat it with an e-cat instead of the solar heat panels.
          I suppose it could be used to replace a hydronic heating boiler since those tend to run a couple of hours, but that is a much smaller market.
          You might be able to retrofit or provide a replacement for forced air heating systems but it would have to be tuned to deliver a lower heat index so that it can run for hours, and that is quite unlike how those systems run where the cycle is more like 10 minutes on an hour or so off. But it also means running the air fan for a much longer time, less efficient and longer noisy intervals.
          he low-temp e-cats are not a good fit for individual domestic heating. Now as district heating they would be quite good as there is a spreadable demand that could be normalized. A good candidate spot would be the Damanhur facility in Torino Italy. They presently use solar heating for district heating.
          I will repeat what I wrote earlier that for domestic usage, one needs an e-cat that has quick startup times. The quark would be that product.

          • Omega Z

            Yes, An hour to start and an hour cool/shut down.

            There is 1 little caveat one may work with.
            If you turn it off and restart it after 30 minutes, it takes only 30 minutes to come back into operation. You could alternate on/off in 10 minute stages or some other timing scheme.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Rene,

            How bout we wait to see the specs of the product before making assumption about it’s start & stop time?
            .

            • Rene

              Unless you know differently, there is ample Rossi documentation that shows the start time for warm e-cats is at around an hour. So, going with that what I wrote is more credible that your implication that it is shorter. Do you know if it is different presently? Or better, ask him to post the start time. Otherwise we can and will extrapolate from the sum of Rossi comments about this. You have done similarly with all your interesting schematics and designs.

              • Engineer48

                Hi Rene,

                My point was the reactors power rating, thermal metal mass, mass of water to heat and the ultimate operational temperature will set the time to operational temp based on existing physics.

                As it takes about 6 times less energy to heat water to 60C than to superheated steam to 100C, this would suggest, all other things being equal, it should take 1/6 the time to heat water to 60C that to superheated steam to 100C.

                As for asking Andrea what the on time will be for the domestic ECat, well maybe not.
                .

                • Rene

                  Indeed, and going with typical tank sizes in domestic applications, replacing a system is often constrained by existing space limitations. The make up time for DWS in typical homes is well understood. A replacement product needs to fit inside those parameters, so the known/states startuo times shows it is a bad fit.
                  This business about 1/6 the energy, though on a long term average may be be the case, it is the details that matter. Since it takes a long time to start up the e-cat that means additional electrical heat has to be generated to heat the water – the water temp drop, after all, causes the thermostat to demand heat. Waiting an hour for the ecat to fire up is too long. By the time it is ready to generate heat via LENR, the water has already been electrically heated.
                  Much of the engineering is about lag times. There is a similar issue with standard hydronic heating systems that have lag times in the order of hours. They too do not run on simple demand thermostats, as found in force air systems.

      • Thomas Kaminski

        Hi Rene,

        I would not shortchange a domestic e-cat yet. Here in Wisconsin with very cold winters, home owners in rural areas often heat with propane — a very expensive fuel. Electric rates are reasonable, so a heat source with a COP greater than 5 or so could compete, especially if the capital cost is reasonable. The Midwest also uses dehumidifiers and increasingly, air-conditioners. A supplementary absorption chiller could provide cooling from the e-cat heat.

    • Thomas Kaminski

      Hi Sam,

      I have seen solar thermal heating installations in Wisconsin (very cold winters) that use a large insulated storage tank to store the hot water for a 24 hour heating cycle. Typically these are large cisterns (like septic tanks) insulated and buried underground. The sun only shines about 8 of those 24 hours in the winter coldest months, so energy storage is the key for solar thermal. Even if the e-cat took several hours to start up, it could still be effectively used to heat the building.

      Alternatively, if the heating demand dropped, the heat could be dumped, or moved to less desirable loads, such as melting ice off driveways and sidewalks.

      • sam

        We’re in the US do you think A.R. should try the Ecat.
        Where he could get support
        and the Ecat be best utilized.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Sam,

          The Doral test was in Miami, which is where Rossi lives and where he has his lab and factory.

          So just maybe the next ECat install will be in Miami as it will be close to the lab/factory and close to Rossi for 24/7 support.
          .

          • sam

            Maybe he could get Thomas
            and his team to give the Ecat
            a go in Wisconsin.
            He could give them support
            via Skype.
            Like A.R. Said Sven Kullander did for him when
            A.R. was building Ecat.

            • Thomas Kaminski

              Sure, sign me up! Actually, I think the MFMP could be the vehicle, but others could help construct the “bulletproof” testing methodology.

  • Alain Samoun

    Any news from this Sweden factory?

  • Steve Savage

    Many interesting facts and pictures about District Heating in Sweden. Seems to make perfect sense given what we know of the E-cat.

    https://www.buildinggreen.com/blog/notes-sweden-4-chp-and-district-heating

  • Ciaranjay

    Very good. Sweden is a world leader in district heating.

  • Gerard McEk

    I think it is an ideal place to prove that the Ecat actually works. They just have to deliver energy to an economical price. When the Leonardo Corp. can do that with just an electrical connection than that in itself is already a milestone, because electricity is about three times as expensive per kWh than natural gas for generating heat.

  • sam

    Sweden would be a good place for A.R.
    to start out with the Ecat.
    Educated,Skillsd,and friendly people,that would benifit from the
    Technology

    • sam

      Neil
      August 17, 2016 at 12:22 PM
      Dr Andrea Rossi:
      You already have given communication that the industrial plants manufacturing has been started, and this is for sure a milestone in the history of technology.
      When do you think that also the massive production will be announced?
      Thank you,
      Neil

      Andrea Rossi
      August 17, 2016 at 2:07 PM
      Neil:
      It is very difficult to answer, many factors do not depend on me, while the selected industrial manufacturing as it is on course depends on me. I can assure you that I am doing all I can to make it possible in the shortes possible timespan.
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

    • georgehants

      Mr. Rossi it seems could not ask for a better place to develop a technology for equal distribution.
      ———-
      BBC News
      Sweden country profile
      26 April 2016
      Sweden’s position as one of the world’s most highly developed post-industrial societies looks fundamentally secure.
      Unemployment is low and the economy strong. Public-private partnership is at the core of “the Swedish model”, which was developed by the Social
      Democrats, who governed for most of the last 70 years until 2006.
      This mixed economy traditionally featured centralised wage negotiations and a heavily tax-subsidised social security network. The Swedes still enjoy an advanced welfare system, and their standard of living and life
      expectancy are almost second to none.

      • Brokeeper

        Along with most of the free world they are enjoying the umbrella protection of the USA/taxpayers. Without that cost we too could probably enjoy cradle to the grave social benefits. Maybe we should charge for protection like the local city mob.

        • John Littlemist

          What protection? Sweden is not in NATO.

          • Brokeeper

            You think Russia (USSR) would not have marched into the Scandinavian countries if we were not allies?

            • John Littlemist

              USSR tried to march into Finland during WW2 and failed. Perhaps they might have marched into Sweden if Finland hadn’t stop the offensive. Finland did not receive any military aid from USA during Winter war.

              • Brokeeper

                Unless I’m misunderstanding that is basically incorrect. They are now in a symbiotic relationship near coercive protection. I’m not a historian but I can read:
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland%E2%80%93Russia_relations

                • John Littlemist

                  Sorry, but what is incorrect? And who are in a symbiotic relationship near coercive protection?

                • Brokeeper

                  Excuse me (you may say potaato – I say potato), during WW2 they were already annexed to Russia and did not have to stop them until attainment of independence with the USSR’s take over of Russia. Symbiotic/coercive protection is my interpretative result of centuries of weary invasions and occupations. (sorry).
                  The whole point I am trying make is if it weren’t for the USA military since WW1 most of countries existing would not be what they are today.

                • John Littlemist

                  Sorry, but your text makes no sense at all.

                  Some key facts:

                  Finland was not part of Russia during WW2, which began in 1939.
                  Russian empire collapsed and Finland became independent in 1917.
                  I’m out.

                • Brokeeper

                  Just reading the Wiki link. If wrong so be it – not the point I originally made.
                  Have a good day, friend.

                • John Littlemist

                  I’m back! Thanks, good day to you too!

                  Btw, Rossi is a great friend of USA and once joked about european ISAF forces:

                  – What does the abbreviation ISAF stand for?
                  – ???
                  – I Saw Americans Fighting!

                • Brokeeper

                  When I searched Google:
                  The International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) was a NATO-led security mission in Afghanistan, established by the United Nations Security Council in December 2001 by Resolution 1386, as envisaged by the Bonn Agreement

        • LilyLover

          Because of that military cost, we DO enjoy better than “somebody else’s” grave to ours’ cradle levels of prosperity 🙂

          • LilyLover

            Also, no, we shouldn’t charge. If that model is caught-on all over the World, pretty soon the advantages of differential bravery/stupidity vanish to zero making us poorer. 🙁

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Funny you post about Sweden. What you don’t realize is the USA has become MORE socialist then Sweden.

        ………………Sweden……………USA
        Corporate….22%………………..39%
        Personal 57%………………..39%

        While the personal tax rate in Sweden is higher, the corporate rate is much lower.

        In the 1980’s, the USA enjoyed a far lower corporate tax rate than most of Europe. As a result, we had a massive boom fueled by the computer industry. So while the USA enjoyed a huge boom in prosperity that technology boom simply ignored and passed Europe (because they had very unfriendly tax rates). The unfriendly business environment in Europe chased away all the technology jobs – and the companies trying to start in Europe never had a chance to get off the ground.

        USA has gone from being about the top 3 to well towards the bottom in terms of high corporate tax rates. Thus the USA enjoys no tax advantages over those counties.

        The result is no job growth, no new industry. However we do have an astounding 46 million people on food stamps. That is 4 times more than the WHOLE economy of Sweden!

        The moral of the story is twofold:

        The higher corporate taxes in the USA is killing the economy.

        The USA has higher corporate tax rates then Sweden!

        So it is a “common” myth that the USA is somehow “less” socialist and less taxed then most European countries – in fact much of Europe enjoys a tax advantage over the USA – at least for those who create the jobs.

        With such high tax rates, we are doomed to decades of slow growth, high unemployment and will be generally worse off than most of Europe.

        Until our industry tax rates come into line with Sweden and many other European countries, we simply have more of a crappy economy and standard of living then those countries that you assumed had less government and taxes then the USA – it simply not the case.

        The industrial base in USA is gone – simply gone and left the coop.

        And if you look at the international tax competitive index, we find that the USA is now 32nd! Sweden is ranked 4th!

        http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/09/22/the-u-s-ranks-32nd-out-of-34-oecd-countries-in-tax-code-competitiveness/#74eacc476d27

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

        • Omega Z

          Albert, The exodus of U.S. industry has been intentionally orchestrated by our Government(coerced by the Elites). It’s part of their planned world wealth redistribution. You have to much. I have to little. They take some of yours and give it to me.

          Intelligent people would create economic growth so those without could provide for themselves. Instead all we get is people who only know how to take from 1 and give to another. Everyone has to little.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            No question there is orchestration.

            Is it any small wonder that Al Gore spent years promoting free trade and the resulting wealth redistribution? It was Clinton + Gore that signed the free trade agreements – the resulting experiment has destroyed the middle class and our industrial base.

            And after free trade Al Gore was a traveling road show for global warming. No
            small coincidence.

            However as the Forbes article shows, it is a myth that the USA is somehow advantaged over European countries with some supposed lower tax and business environment advantages – they are long gone. The result is little if any economic growth – we are just like Europe, if not worse off now.

            To “quote” or somehow propose that Sweden is better off because of being more socialist is simply not the case.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada