Industrial Heat Amends Answer to Rossi’s Complaint on Aug 11th (Update #2 — Rossi: “The Heat Was Used, Not Vented Away”)

Thanks to Chapman for noticing that there are amended complaints and counterclaims in the court docket with new documents submitted yesterday, August 11 2016.

I have not downloaded or seen the files so far. But the list of documents can be seen here:

https://www.pacermonitor.com/case/11135976/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al

UPDATE: Someone sent me a file for a new exhibit (#26) which shows some photos that look like the interior of the Doral factory. Here’s a link: http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Doral.pdf

Here are a couple of new points in the amended answer:

82. Indeed, when Murray eventually gained access to the Plant in February 2016 and
examined the Plant, the methodology being used to operate the Plant, and the methodology being
used to measure those operations, he immediately recognized that those methodologies were
fatally flawed. Some of the flaws that he was quickly able to identify are explained in Exhibit 5. Murray also recognized that the building in which the Plant was located had no method to
ventilate the heat that would be produced by the Plant were it producing the amount of steam
claimed by Rossi, Leonardo, and Penon such that persons would not have been able to work in
the building if the Rossi/Leonardo/Penon claims were true. This conflicted with the claims of
individuals who had been in the building when the Plant was operating, all of whom claimed the
temperature in the building was near or not much greater than the outside temperature.
Photographs of the building ceiling from the inside are attached hereto as Exhibit 26.

83. Leonardo, Rossi, JMP, Johnson, USQL, Fabiani, and John Doe also restricted
access to the JMP area at the Doral location, claiming that there was a secretive manufacturing
process being conducted there, when in fact it was simply recycling steam from the Plant and
sending it back to the Plant as water.

UPDATE#2: I asked Rossi today on the Journal of Nuclear Physics about the photos and allegations from Industrial Heat that if 1MW was produced by the E-Cat plant, it would have been too hot inside the factory for anyone to have worked. Rossi responded:

Andrea Rossi
August 12, 2016 at 1:53 PM
Frank Acland:
1 The heat was used, not vented away from the Customer
2 There was a ventilation system, to exhaust when necessary the heat excess, that has not been taken in the photo.
Nevertheless I must confess that these amendments have remarkably improved the former countercomplaints, completing their cultural reach: before they were comic, now they are tragicomic.
Obviously we will respond in Court with due evidence.
Warm Regards
A.R.

When Rossi says “the heat was used”, it suggests that he means there was an endothermic manufacturing process, which some people have been discussing. From his response it sounds like that there were times when excess heat had to be vented out (apparently when the heat was not being used by the customer), but I don’t know what kind of ventilation system he is referring to here.

  • http://www.libertynewspost.com/ Liberty Newspost

    It all seems so ridiculous, all they have to do is go back to the plant start it back up and watch it work again to disprove Industrial Heats ridiculous claim. That plaint was “allegedly” working for an entire year and in that time if they didn’t know how it was functioning? What a completely asinine claim. This trail is looking more and more like a calculated delay tactic.

    • Obvious

      Rossi spent the evening between the Plant shut down and Penon retrieving the water meter replacing the fuel charges (according to Rossi on the JoNP). The plant cannot simply be re-started and run the way it was operated.
      The lines were flushed and the 480V supply panel were removed also, and who knows what else was changed, according to some reports (Murray, Weaver). And the Customer has presumably moved on.
      All that guarantees that the Plant operation cannot be verified. The trail is looking like it was calculatedly obscured by the operator.

  • GiveADogABone

    The dryness fraction, so I think you have it the wrong way round. 100% dry is on the right hand side of the dome. You can equally talk about the % wetness and the right hand side of the dome would be 0% wet.

    Take a look at the graphic. There is a wet saturated line on the left of the dome and a dry saturated line on the right side of the dome. ‘Equal enthalpy’ lines are vertical lines on the pressure/enthalpy chart above.

    • Bruce__H

      I have things the right way around but some of the terminology is leading people into confusion. The wet steam region in the diagram is a set of conditions where the liquid and vapour phases of water are in equilibrium. At the saturated water border in the diagram the partial pressure of the vapour is near zero because the equilibrium is shifted towards the liquid phase. At the dry saturated steam border the equilibrium is very much shifted towards the vapour phase and the partial pressure of the vapour approaches the overall ambient pressure whatever that is.
      I think Engineer48 believes that wet steam must be white cloudy stuff but this is not so. Water vapour is always clear and colourless and wet steam can be too. In white cloudy steam the vapour is in equilibrium with water droplets rather than a single mass of water.

  • GiveADogABone

    The header article for this thread quotes IH’s amended answer :-

    ’82. … Murray also recognized that the building in which the Plant was located had no method to
    ventilate the heat that would be produced by the Plant were it producing the amount of steam claimed by Rossi, Leonardo, and Penon …’
    A bit of a problem here? No, the heat was embodied in hydrocarbon fuels.

    ‘… such that persons would not have been able to work in the building if the Rossi/Leonardo/Penon claims were true. ‘
    Not a problem. ALL heat, bar the last few kilowatts was embodied in hydrocarbon fuels and the ambient temperature would have been fine.

    ‘This conflicted with the claims of individuals who had been in the building when the Plant was operating, all of whom claimed the temperature in the building was near or not much greater than the outside temperature.’
    The ‘claims of individuals’ were correct, in my view.

    83. ‘… when in fact it was simply recycling steam from the Plant and sending it back to the Plant as water.’
    Doing that would require a condenser to turn the steam into water, which is actually what happens. The issue is what the heat removed by the condenser does and where it goes.

    In my view claims 82 and 83 fail.

    Overall Thermal Analysis of the Production Plant Process in the 1MW test in Doral, Florida :
    Note: All this depends on there being a gas supply.

    Consider a transport container that contains the whole production process of SMR(Steam Methane Reforming) and FT(Fischer-Tropsch). Another container contains an E-cat producing 1MW of steam and receiving a condensate return flow.

    Inputs to the SMR+FT container :
    1a: Air for combustion @ 20C
    1b: Methane for combustion @ 20C
    2: Methane for process raw material @ 20C
    3: Towns water for cooling @ 20C
    4: E-cat steam that goes to a heat exchanger @ 100C
    Electricity to run the plant

    Outputs from the SMR+FT container :
    1: Flue Gas from combustion @ 60C
    2: Liquid+solid hydrocarbons @ 60C
    3: Towns water return from cooling @ 60C
    4: E-cat return condensate from heat exchanger @60C
    Heat loss from container surfaces is zero.

    1: The combustion of air and methane is clearly inputting to the SMR+FT container considerable quantities of heat and the flue gases are cool; no different to a domestic central heating boiler. This air flow is taken from the ambient air inside the container and maintains the ambient air at a reasonable temperature. The air eventually emerges from the container via the flue gases, so the container must have a grill through which the outside air can enter when the doors are shut.

    2: The methane is the raw material for making the liquid+solid hydrocarbons that are things like diesel, paraffin, avaiation kerosene and solid paraffin wax. They contain a great deal of embodied energy that can be released by combustion at a later time and another place. These are fuels that are storable.

    3: With so much heat around there is going to be a need for some cooling by air or water at 20C. How much cooling? Perhaps 20kw for the water.

    4: The E-cat supplies 1MW of net enthalpy.

    Where did the 1MW of heat from the E-cat (and more from the combustion) go?
    Into the liquid+solid hydrocarbon fuels where it is stored.

    Where did the most of the mass of methane go?
    Into the liquid+solid hydrocarbon fuels where it is stored. Some went up the flue gas pipe as combustion products.

    How much heat was released into the Doral factory?
    About 20kw via the towns water cooling return and that went into the drains, so nothing escapes into the building, except perhaps in a bit of warmth in the liquid+solid fuels that are made. Even the heat from the lights inside the SMR+FT container goes into the liquid+solid fuels.

    Now you know why IH are on a hopeless quest to find a heat signature, except perhaps from the flue pipe and that will be as cold as the exhaust from my domestic condensing boiler.

  • GiveADogABone
  • Slad

    Superheated steam is steam heated above the point that all the tiny drops of water vapour inside it evaporate.

    Plasma is much hotter.

  • Slad

    Reading this again, I thought you meant you had tried some much more complex manipulations to prove that your video steam plume contained superheated water vapour, hence why it is visible.

    It would be best to use the proper terminology: water vapour is not steam.

    My2cs maths is ok, he just doesnt manage to prove it’s superheated steam.

  • Slad

    You said “superheated water vapour”, not “superheated steam”…

    • Bruce__H

      Sorry. You are absolutely correct. I misquoted you.

      Is there a distinction between superheated water vapour and superheated steam?

      • Slad

        Superheated water ‘vapour’ can only exist at very high pressures… It’s just superheated water, it would instantly vapourise (become steam) if the pressure dropped.

        Superheated steam is h2o heated above the its saturation enthalpy, aka the saturation point.

  • Slad

    This could also describe saturated steam, using reasonable error boundaries.

  • Slad

    Bruce,It is not persuasive at all, because when you say:
    “The contents of the hose must contain water vapour with an pecific enthalpy greater than the latent heat of vapourization of water.”
    …You just described superheated water vapour, which is only possible at the critical point of water, somewhere north of 100atm: It’s a physical impossibility otherwise.

    Your math is wrong, trust me.

    My2c and you are confusing each other. You both could choose to benefit from the knowledge of two people who have been taught the thermodynamics of steam, and who have made several posts trying to explain the basics to you.

    Please watch the video E48 posted in reply to My2c,

  • Paul Maher

    We don’t need any steam from LENR to get to electricity production. Thermoelectric devices will do the job nicely. Nanotechnology, and Metamaterials, both singly and layered arrangements like the Lanthanum Aluminate / Strontium Titanate Interface loom before us. Of course steam generation via CECR/LENR is on the move. Have you been following Phyllis Young and Brillouin Energy in their attempt to bring it to the Standing Rock Sioux in North Dakota?

  • Slad

    You cannot know that (ie. what’s in the hose) for sure. Do your feet hurt with all this dancing on pin heads?

    Based on his latest post referencing it, E48 seems to be using the normal terminology.

    Based on your initial post above regarding pressure changes, I can only imagine you are confusing yourself.

  • Slad

    Steam dries itself out (or even superheats) when it expands, and a steam plume will not be easily cooled by surrounding air due to its insulative qualities.

  • Axil Axil

    If LENR is a yet undiscovered part of physical law, it’s never going to go away. I hope that science will start looking at the low energy stuff like this fifth force that they have just discovered and get away from the high energy CERN type science,

  • Engineer48

    Hi Roselands,

    Actually the physics of the location and the investigation of several possible plant processes do support that a process could have occurred there and any water heat from the process could have been dealt with in a way according to normal plant engineering process.

    We do not know what the process could have been but have identified several that fit the observed circumstances.
    .

    • roseland67

      48,

      I am not saying your possibilities cannot be true, they all are possible.
      You’re taking google earth satellite pictures of rooftops to support a “possibility” when all it would take is Rossi saying 20% of the heat went into the product, 20% went out the roof vents, 40% went down the drain and 20% went out the garage door.
      Done, simple, no guessing about roof vent sizes, available water flow rates, blower/fan curves, etc.
      Then all of these inane suppositions, calculations and estimates can be practically accomplished.
      Do you see any reason why Rossi could not simply state above? Or do you believe it will impact his IP, the customers IP or the trial?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Roselands,

        2 thoughts there:

        1) NDA with the customer as his production was highly confidential and may have represented a new, under test, generation of whatever the JMP plant was.

        2) Rossi is keeping some missiles in reserve to hurl at IH during the trial.

        Suggest there is some % of both involved.
        .

  • Engineer48

    Hi My2c,

    The calculator shows the min temp for superheated steam at the inputted pressure. It is my definition superheated steam at that min temp. OK just at the start of superheated steam with 0.0 deg of superheat but still superheated. However with ANY pressure increase above 0.0 barG and it is no longer superheated so in a practical world, the usable superheat temp is above that shown.

    I believe the measured steam temp was around 103C at the claimed 0.0 barG, so it had 3 deg C of superheat.

    I will state again what you showed in your video is not superheated steam and it had a lower enthalpy than superheated steam as even you showed by the heating water example.
    .

  • Engineer48

    Hi Bruce,

    Where did I use the wrong terminology?

    Saturated (dry) steam results when water is heated to the boiling point (sensible heating) and then vaporized with additional heat (latent heating). If this steam is then further heated above the saturation point, it becomes superheated steam (sensible heating).

    My point to My2c was superheated steam is invisible.
    .

  • Engineer48

    Hi My2c,

    Try this:

    Saturated (dry) steam results when water is heated to the boiling point (sensible heating) and then vaporized with additional heat (latent heating). If this steam is then further heated above the saturation point, it becomes superheated steam (sensible heating).

    Plus superheated steam is invisible as I showed in the video I sent you.
    .

  • sam
  • Engineer48

    Hi Roselands,

    The majority of posters on this subject are various types of Engineers, Chemists and other such professional people that can work with varied facts and test the validity or not of various proposals using solid engineering, chemical and physics principals.

    What we seem to have come up with opposes a lot of “trust me” claims from Jed and others.

    So we are not so much Pro Rossi but Pro does it pass the physical reality smell test.
    .

  • Slad

    According to Mr Rothwells source one sensor, somewhere, reads 1atm

  • Chapman

    I do not think Engineer gets too confused about much – other than the obscure identity of posters who use initials that suggest a connection to “it-which-shall-not-be-mentioned”.

  • Mark Dansie

    Why bother just go buy some solar panels like millions of others and have as much free energy as you like lol

    • MorganMck

      Very interesting to see you around here Mark. I thought you had totally written Rossi off as a certain fraud years ago. At least that is what you said then. Have you had a change of heart?

  • roseland67

    Paul,
    What scares me is that people believe everything they read on the Internet

  • Eyedoc

    What a “lawyerfest” gravytrain …APCO to the fore!……the amends will never end till trial

  • jimbo92107

    As Rossi has said in response to being called a fraud, “Maybe you are right.”

    But maybe you are wrong. Are you willing to be wrong? It’s important. I am. I think Rossi is a con man, but if I’m wrong, I will dance in the streets, for the world is saved.

    Unfortunately, Rossi won’t be the first bullshit artist that claimed he was going to save the world. Won’t be the last, either. Bullshit artists like Rossi are as common as greed.

  • Axil Axil

    Nano-skeletal catalyst: https://www.google.com/patents/US9023754

    Quote: “The oxide etching apparatus preferably employs a supercritical etch solution, while the leaching apparatus preferably employs a supercritical leaching solution. In certain embodiments where the use of leaching is appropriate, selective leaching with a basic solution is preferably used to remove the substantial portion of the filler material from the bulk structure. Preferably, the filler material left is present in a relatively stable alloy phase (e.g., the alloy phase is more stable than other alloy phases given the set of materials).”

    The production of Nano dimensioned nickel requires multiple leching operations using water near the boiling point. The aluminum substrate must be removed to reveal the microparticles of nickel with nano dimensional surface features. multiple leaching operations using a fluorine based gas or acid may be used and the application of plasma treatment as was seen in the Lugano powder. The waste heat would be flushed down the drain on repeated cycles until all substrate material is removes from the nickel micro powder.

    Evidence of plasma sintering and the presence of molybdenum, chromium. and rare earths upon assay examination of the Lugano fuel was a mystery until the plasma sintering of equal parts aluminum and nickel micron sized particles with additives is revealed in the nickel Nano-skeletal catalyst patent. Acid or gas etching of aluminum oxide to remove the aluminum substrate using multiple etching cycles would be needed to produce a highly purified resulting product.

    Rossi will not allow IH to see this process since it is central and pivotal to the functioning of his technology.

  • GiveADogABone

    Pressure enthalpy diagram for water/steam

  • Andrew

    /popcorn

    Could the 6 inch pipe be used to vent heat from a device used for cooling such as a refrigerator compressor? That is also a very large area to do all does of things in the customers area. On an interesting note metal foams can be used as heat exchangers, wasn’t JM using metal foams for something?