More From Rossi on Restricted Access to the Customer’s Plant

Andrea Rossi answered a question on the Journal of Nuclear Physics today which provides a bit more information about the restrictions placed upon Industrial Heat regarding access to the customer’s manufacturing plant during the 1-year E-Cat plant test that took place in Doral, Florida. Rossi was asked if Industrial Heat had access to the part of the factory where the customer’s plant was, and if they were able to take measurements of temperature in the customer’s area. His response:

Andrea Rossi
August 1, 2016 at 7:36 PM
Susan Cordasco:
Absolutely not. Nobody of IH has ever entered the area in which was the plant of the Customer, based on an agreement signed by IH and the Customer , on the base of which both parties were engaged not to enter in the respective areas. Between the two areas there was a wall that has never been violated by IH. I know this because such agreement has been signed also by me, as the responsible of the safety of the E-Cat area.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Based on Rossi’s answer here, I feel pretty certain that the picture below is of the premises where the 1MW E-Cat plant took place. Rossi mentions a wall between the E-Cat plant and the customer’s manufacturing facility which is clearly shown in the photograph. Rossi has mentioned that the doors to the plant were opened at one end, again which is shown here. There are two pipes shown between the two units. My guess is the top one is likely the one that provided steam for the customer, and the bottom is the return pipe for water, which according to Rossi was recirculated through the E-Cat plant.E-CatDoral
On the left side of the wall is a structure that could match with dimensions that Rossi recently provided giving the dimensions of the customer’s facility:

Andrea Rossi
July 28, 2016 at 10:01 AM
Ray:
Approximatively:
length 21 meters ( 70′)
width 3 meters ( 10′)
Height 3 meters ( 10′)
Plus the external ancillary components.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

From what Rossi says here, there was a written agreement between the customer and IH that neither party would have access to the other’s facility, and it sounds like the agreement was upheld.

  • Fibber McGourlic
  • Omega Z

    Musk gave away nothing. There are strings attached for the use of his technology. It has to follow his “Standard” for car charging hook ups.

    Musk remembers the video tape (BETA-VHS) format wars. He wants to set the standards before the major automakers do. Who would want to buy a Tesla that can only be charged at home. Musk is merely trying to avoid becoming the BETAMAX format by setting standards for universal charging stations everywhere.

  • Hank Mills

    The Rossi Effect: Beyond the MUD and the FUD

    By Hank Mills

    Various combinations of nickel, lithium, and hydrogen can be combined to produce massive excess heat beyond any possible chemical reaction: in my personal opinion, enough evidence has been provided to substantiate this statement beyond a reasonable doubt. Although this phenomenon — the “Rossi Effect” — is not yet always repeatable, the diverse array of replications that have taken place scream loudly that it is a reality. The number of individuals who have claimed to produce excess heat continues to grow. However, a legal war that has spilled over onto the internet threatens to distract observers and interested parties from further experimentation. Due to the focus on the conflict rather than the technology, the open dissemination of the critical parameters needed to allow for “guaranteed to work” replications may be delayed.

    For mainstream science to consider a controversial technology to be real, there must be a set of precise instructions that allow for replication of the effect. A scientist must be able to use materials “A” within certain parameters “B” under certain conditions “C” to get the expected result that is far beyond the margin of error “D.” We don’t have such a formula for the Rossi Effect. Multiple researchers seem to have produced high levels of excess heat; a few of them have seemingly been able to do so repeatedly. But not a single individual has offered an instruction sheet which — if followed in excruciating detail — would offer an ultra high success rate.

    Researchers who have successfully replicated the E-Cat have shared a good bit of information; for example, Alexander Parkhmov, N. Stepanov, Songsheng Jiang, and others have published in depth test reports. These accounts provide many tips and suggestions that could potentially assist individuals working to validate the Rossi Effect. But so far these papers fail to explain why some individuals obtain excess heat on the first attempt, and others don’t seem to produce a single watt after dozens of runs.

    This continuous enigma is what prevents the “Rossi Effect” from becoming the number one top news story. The ability to produce this phenomenon ON DEMAND at HIGH POWER would rattle our civilization in a way we cannot imagine. Literally, this combination of common and almost inexhaustible elements would represent a source of energy orders of magnitude ahead of any competitor. With a possible power density of 1000 watts (or higher) per gram of fuel, photo-voltaic and wind technologies would be destroyed. A massive shift would begin taking us away from expensive conventional “renewable” energy towards dirt cheap nuclear power. The human thirst for energy would finally be quenched. If not forever, at least for hundreds of years.
    But humans like scandal, intrigue, gossip, and innuendo. The current battle between Industrial Heat and Andrea Rossi has brought out the worst in many otherwise intelligent and decent individuals, providing soap opera like entertainment to some and a sad tragedy to others. With so little factual information out in the open — completely vetted in order to be free of “spin” — there is no rational way to come to an absolute conclusion about the issues being fought over. Most specifically, the performance of the one megawatt plant. But this hasn’t stopped forum users and bloggers from choosing a side, making derogatory statements about the other, and proclaiming their opinion as God’s truth without the hard data required to do so.

    I will openly and without reservation state that I feel it is a virtual certainty that the E-Cat is indeed real. To be clear, I’m not an engineer or a professionally trained scientist by any stretch of the imagination, so you can take my opinion with a grain of salt if you so desire. But I’ve read and been told of too many experiments — both those conducted by Rossi and by third parties — that produced high levels of excess heat beyond any possible chemical reaction to believe that they are all examples of sloppy measurement, exotic chemical reactions, or outright hoaxing. For starters, there are accounts of self sustained reactions and meltdowns, occurring after input has been switched off, that eliminate the need for the most sophisticated and precise measurement systems. Next, the quantities of heat produced overtime far exceed (sometimes by orders of magnitude) what could be generated if the grams of Ni and LiAlH4 had been replaced with thermite (iron oxide and aluminum), ignited inside of the reactor, and burned with 100% efficiency over an extended period of time. There is just no chemical fuel that comes near to the energy densities reported. Finally, the seemingly most successful replications have came from highly qualified, well educated individuals with ties to academia or scientific research. These individuals — separated sometimes by thousands of miles — would have little to no rational reason to intentionally exaggerate or lie.

    When it comes to the one year test of the one megawatt plant, I can only state that I expect it produced some level of excess heat — due to the fact so many other tests of Ni-Li-H systems have done so. But I will not say much more, because I do not have access to the ERV report. And, to be honest, I don’t care to dwell on the topic. The fact is that right now “hot cat” reactors, capable of operating at temperatures far higher than those in the shipping container locked up in Doral, Florida, can be built by third parties.

    Procure a suitable reactor core, add a tenth of a gram of LiAlH4, add nine tenths of a gram of nickel powder, wrap it with a suitable resistor like Kanthal A1, seal the ends adequately, protect the heating element from oxidation, heat the whole unit up to 1200-1300C, and apply whatever wave forms you desire (perhaps square waves): you have a chance to see massive excess heat and even self sustain for minutes to hours after turning off the input. But there is no guarantee of success. You may have to try repeatedly, use different brands of fuel, vary the ratio of empty space, perform some pre-cleaning on the nickel to remove oxidation, or even add some supplemental hydrogen. But the number of successful tests so far indicate that with enough effort you will eventually find excess heat.

    What we as a loosely knit, sometimes disfunctional, and sometimes cut-throat community need to do is figure out how to avoid all the trial and error required to produce the effect. Forget about the legal battle, stop reading the posts by extremists on both sides, and don’t look at the updates on the court docket; instead, do whatever you can to encourage, assist, and provide support for replicators who pledge to openly share their results and discoveries.

    My hope — as I’ve already stated multiple times — is for a formula to be made available that will allow for the “Rossi Effect” to be replicated by any qualified individual who is willing to abide by specific guidelines: with the purpose of forcing this technology to be accepted as real by the mainstream world. This can happen regardless of the less than flattering information that will most likely come out about BOTH Leonardo Corporation and Industrial Heat.

    Let’s get real: no one is perfect. Consider the candidates running for President of the United States. I would be willing to wager, if I were a gambler, that the vast majority of Republicans and Democrats see major flaws in their nominee. Even if they would be hesitant to speak openly about such issues, they observe them and are not oblivious to reality. I expect the same is true about Industrial Heat, Leonardo Corporation, and the individuals who operate both of these entities. When the court case comes to an end, unless a settlement is reached, I don’t think either party will walk away wearing a white suit without a spec of dust, so to speak. So arguing about who is the right and who is in the wrong is for the most part pointless.

    Conversely, focusing on coming up with a working recipe is not. The moment a recipe, backed up by multiple successful tests by different parties, is released, the grip that has been keeping most of the world ignorant will be released. An impossible snake-oil fantasy will have became hard fact: indisputable even to the most zealous cynics.

    So let’s keep focused in the days, weeks, and months to come. Don’t get caught up in the mud slinging that is bound to intensify as the legal battle heats up. Expect ahead of time that whichever “side” you feel more drawn towards is probably going to be revealed as totally less than spotless and unblemished, and remember that the technology is what really matters. I’d suggest keeping these three themes present in your mind.

    – Continual Testing to determine the critical parameters needed to trigger the effect.
    – Absolute Openness in sharing the knowledge about these critical parameters.
    – Non-participation in conflicts, arguments, and wars that are only distractions.

    We C-A-N move this technology forward if we focus on the above. When I get caught up in emotion, frustrated with the statements of muckrakers on various forums, I like to think about what’s possible with an energy source like the E-Cat. The wonders that come to mind help keep me focused, because they could lead to a technologically advanced world with far less suffering that I’d be proud to live in.

    Earth doesn’t have to remain a hell-planet and humanity a technologically retarded species unless we let ourselves get distracted. We are closer than I think most people realize to “cracking” the E-Cat. Let’s move forward by celebrating those who are performing open experimentation, and renouncing those who seek to slow progress and conceal information that could help fellow replicators. And, for goodness sakes, if you are holding onto unreported test results — positive or negative — please publish them immediately. The data could help us reach the point of having a “formula” days, weeks, or months sooner.

    • georgehants

      Hank a Wonderful report that deserves a topic page of it’s own.
      What you diplomatically avoid pointing out and I am not so diplomatic, but care only for the Truth, is that only Mr Rossi (excluding our secret government departments) is the sole cause of a five and a half year delay (if genuine) in the release of Cold Fusion.
      In this time millions have continued to die and suffer and the World continues to be raped for resources, that if he where not consumed by a capitalistic greed and selfishness for obscene wealth and power, would by now, hopefully have started to be improved.
      As you say the court case is irrelevant time wasting trash, only the release of Cold Fusion matters.

  • help_lenr

    He has shown enough tests. And he has only to convince now the court that he passed a one year test which is a plain test if done properly.

    Rossi owes you nothing until you put on the table big money as an investor. He may piss on your opinion otherwise.

    Now go to Elon musk and request him to show you his commercial secrets (so that he will convince you that his plans are going well); Elon Musk will throw you immediately from his offices because he owes you nothing either.

    Most skeptics pose very weak arguments against rossi. Their opinion is not important.

    The Ultimate proof of ECAT will be by supplying a good working plant. No more “scientific” tests are needed, only investors opinions and their tests count.

    I believe that good working plants will be confirmed by serious Buyers during the next 2 years (my guess at the beginning of 2017). I might be wrong but 2 years from now is a reasonable time (since practical technologies need several years of development, only toys need less time of development and your first mistake is that you consider 1MW to be a toy).

    Again: what you believe or not believe is not important at all.
    The same with me my opinion is not important: I am just waiting the next 2 years before I make any new conclusion.

  • Roland

    By way of disclaimer:

    Inventor Invented represents a rival LENR endeavour that has garnered neither funding, nor recognition; I would posit that doubting Rossi is much more comfortable than recognizing that his team are already also-rans who’re miles and miles behind the curve.

    A fully accredited nuclear engineer of excellent repute has afixed his stamp and signature to, and deposed under oath, a report that summarizes a solid year’s worth of personal observation (backed by copious data and continuous multi-camera video) that baldly states that a LENR powered device designed by Rossi produced an average of 1megaW of steam while averaging a COP >50 during the course of that entire year.

    That’s the current bar; suck it up and try harder instead of expecting him to help you.

  • Omega Z

    Rossi is already a little eccentric and when people including business associates continuously try to steal you IP every step of the way, a little paranoia may creep in.

    Just because someone is paranoid that someone is out to get them, doesn’t mean they aren’t.

  • Ged

    There definitely can be steam on the customer side of the exchanger. It really depends most on the customer’s flow rate, I think (correct me if I am wrong) as there will be losses at the exchanger, but if the costumer has a slower flow rate on its side then there is plenty of time and less mass to phase change the customer’s fluid to steam. I don’t know how big the losses so I can’t try to estimate reasonable rates. Conversely, the customer could also exchange that steam for hot water by using a much higher flow rate.

    The energy per unit mass is what is important, I think. Temp and phase gives us the potential energy, flow rate gives us the mass.

    The customer could also just be measuring the pressure of both parties in the exchanger.

    Anyways, the plant produces about ~1.1MW from 60C input water, so a 10% loss would give the customer ~1MW. Be very interesting to see if the data matches up at all and can be confirmed or invalidated.

    • wpj

      If the process is what they said it was, they would need to heat sodium hydroxide solution to about 90C for several hours or more (depending on the specific type on catalyst). There is then a hot water wash to remove aluminate residues.

  • GiveADogABone

    http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=2035
    I can see the steam/water pipe connections in this one.

  • Omega Z

    umm, Things being promoted by Darden clan

    The wrong equipment was used.
    The equipment was manipulated to give rigged data.
    The equipment was improperly positioned.
    Penon is incompetent.
    Penon manipulated the data.
    You can’t measure the energy if you don’t know what it was used for.
    1MW of heat would have melted and scorched all the walls of the building. Etc, Etc, Etc,,,

    This is mud slinging in hopes something will stick. Nothing more…

    • BillH

      Maybe so, but the specification of the actual plant is in the LA, See page 21 of 25. Is this the planted used? or do the two amendments to the agreement give more details?

    • Ged

      We only see part of the facts so far, so it is possible the data we have could be completely re-interpreted with further discovery.

      For instance, while nothing in Rossi’s complaint is apparently directly demonstratably false (no Rule 11 filing against it), IH can go for a defense where the interpretation of that data as presented in the complaints turns out incorrect. Such as, they could say, “While yes, the ERV report does say the COP is 50, and Rossi is stating the factual truth in his complaint that the report says that, the report itself came to a wrong conclusion due to this error or this change, and thus the complaint is invalid in light of these new facts. We can show it wasn’t actually 50 despite that being what the report says.”

      I think a lot of the rumor people try to spread is a re-interpretation test, to see if these ideas actually successfully re-cast what is known to put the Complaint on the losing side of the matter of law given the facts, or if they are easily defeated (some of the ideas are out right absurd). Of course, IH preemptively said not to listen to or believe anyone trying to speak for them, but such is human nature.

    • cashmemorz

      Or Darden is trying to vet everything that might be wrong and is hoping none of it is. A positive outcome by any means including forced legal action would be a final bit of due diligence to convince investors that the risk in E-Cat tech is much less than its extraordinary nature would imply. For the potential extraordinary rewards of the tech are required extraordinary steps to convince those usually conservative in their investment strategies.

    • kdk

      They’re going to have to do better than that list, if they want to win.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      This is why IH is paying millions to one of the best propagandist firms in the world.

  • Frank Acland

    I believe there was office space at the front entrance, and the factory/warehouse area was at the back where the loading docks were.

  • Frank Acland

    Vicente Shehata
    August 2, 2016 at 1:13 PM
    Dr Andrea Rossi,
    Which was the temperature of the external wall of the plant of the customer that used the thermal energy of the 1 MW E-Cat for one year ?
    Thank you if you can answer,
    Vicente

    Andrea Rossi
    August 2, 2016 at 1:36 PM
    Vicente Shehata:
    Several Celsius degrees above the room temperature. Their plant was thermally insulated.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Ged

      Guess that could explain why it is covered in black.

    • clovis ray

      WOW,

  • Ged

    What Frank said. That warehouse is not insulated so you won’t have office-like climate control, and it looks like a far worst office space than a container to me, so I am in the opposite view as you on that. I have seen amazingly well done offices made from dinky prefab sheds, and see nothing wrong with a spacious 9′ ceiling container; but that is just my personal view of the working space.

  • Frank Acland

    In the south of Florida, I think I would prefer working an air-conditioned container than a hot, humid warehouse. Rossi said the temperature in the E-Cat container was around 40C (104 F)

  • Observer

    Are the two vertical pipes mounted to the wall near the fan for the office air conditioner?

    • Ged

      The two verticle pipe things near the industrial fan in the far right top the image in the article? I instinctively thought they were electrical conduits for the doors, which should be around there, but I could easily be mistaken.

    • Obvious

      The vertical “pipes” that you are indicating are the tracks for the bay doors.
      There are two together there, because that is between the two far bay doors, one each for one side of each door. There are more out of sight, six in total.

  • LuFong

    Wouldn’t the insulated top pipe be the return and the bottom pipe be the steam? The reason for this is that superheated steam does not transfer heat very well so no need to insulate. Don’t know if heat loss at higher temperatures offset this though.

    • Ged

      From the inner pictures, the huge top pipe is even labeled “Steam”. I assume it is the same pipe we see outside at the same height. Would one need insulation to protect dry steam from starting to condense over those lengths?

      • LuFong

        If interior pictures are labeled steam then probably the upper pipe is the steam one. I was was just thinking that the superheated steam did not need to be insulated but that was just a guess. Maybe GiveADogABone would know.

        • Ged

          I guess safety protection is a good reason.

          • GiveADogABone

            I was swinging around on the scaffolding under the turbine once and grabbed a pipe that turned out to be an unlagged drain. You get one of those difficult decisions. Do I let go and fall or take the pain?

      • GiveADogABone

        The normal standard is any metal over 60C is insulated for personnel protection, at least in my part of the world.

        • LuFong

          So both pipes should be insulated?

          • GiveADogABone

            Being careful about it you would say yes but pipes run very low and even drain tail pipes that only heat up once in a while get kind of neglected. It really depends how keen the Health & Safety folks are i.e. if you have a pipe burn incident they insulate afterwards. Yea, I know but that’s life.

            • LuFong

              What kind of pipe is that at the bottom? It’s not CPVC is it?

              • GiveADogABone

                It certainly looks white but that could be just the cover on some lagging. If the pipe is designed to 100C, I would doubt any plastics would last and you always have to remember that some gorilla might stand on and give it a stress test.

                • LuFong

                  Yes, I looked up CPVC and it’s max tempeture is 93°C with a strength at that temperature ony 20% of lower temperature.

                  Going back to superheated steam not being good for heat transfer, wouldn’t a metal pipe have a temperature less than the superheated steam because it would radiate its heat much faster than it could take it up? Just thinking out loud but you would know actuals.

                • Ged

                  These are good questions you ask though, thank you for them.

                • GiveADogABone

                  Uninsulated, the pipe would have a temperature gradient through the wall rather than a constant temperature. Lost heat costs money and can overheat the space where the pipe is located which can be really bad news if there is electrical cabling around.

                  The heat transfer argument is a little bit strange to me. It is true that condensation and evaporation have strong heat transfer capabilities but you are really talking about the design of heat exchanger internals.

                  The real point about small margins of superheat is that they contain little energy, so the temperature drops quickly to the saturation temperature. The condensation of saturated steam occurs at constant temperature all the way from 100% dry to 100% wet. A saturated steam pipe at say 120C inlet delivers steam at 120C long distance and the pipework drains discharge the water through steam traps.

                • Ged

                  So insulation is also important to prevent loss of supersaturation? That is, if 100% dry steam is called for, insulation is needed to guarantee that?

                • GiveADogABone

                  Could well be. If you want superheated steam at a certain temperature at the final destination, you have to calculate the heat loss whilst it gets there and over superheat at the boiler. Clearly insulation cuts the heat losses and the temperature drop on the journey.

                • LuFong

                  I looked up piping for steam. They say pipes for steam are based on carbon steel ASTM A106 with some alloying elements. This pipe is not white. Not sure why it would be painted or covered.

                • GiveADogABone

                  Lagging would be one answer. Another might be that the pipe makers standard procedure is to paint for weather protection purposes before installation. The paint is usually red oxide or Aluminium. Another is just cosmetic.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Ged,

        Suggest that big Steam pipe penetrates the container side wall and connects to the heat exchanger installed there.

        Suggest the visible pipes in this photo are on the customer side of the heat exchanger and they could be at higher pressure than the ECat side of the heat exchanger that may be located further to the right and behind the reactor container.

        Believe the doors are at the slab reactor end of the container.

        • Ged

          A picture from the other side would definitely be useful and help get our bearings pegged down. The insulation of the external pipe run looks different from what it is internally, so could be a new pipe indeed. At the very least it has a ~90 degree bend to do, and that could lead to an insulation type change too. Hm, be interesting to see a drawing of the potential layout.

          Are the slab reactors (banks of 15-16 units) the main operational reactors and the individual units the dynamic backups?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Ged,

            Try this. Think it is fairly close. Slab reactors are primary.

            • Ged

              Thank you kindly, Engineer48. This definitely helps me conceptualize what you mean.

            • Chapman

              Now I get exactly what you have been saying! The diagram helped a lot. Thank you.

              So, from what I gather then – we do not even know WHAT was flowing in those two pipes, because they are entirely part of the customer’s loop. Is that correct? They may even have been circulating a fluid, right? Everyone has been assuming they were steam, and return condensate, but…

              • Frank Acland

                Rossi had said that the customer measured steam pressure in his facility.

                • DrD

                  Yes and I think he said the heat exchanger was the customers. I assume that would place it in the customers area. Is it important though? Andrea also said the pipes were well insulated. That would be to avoid heat loss (avoiding condensation wouldn’t be the main reason).

          • GiveADogABone

            Rossi says :-
            http://www.e-catworld.com/2015
            We have in the same container two sections, one with the [100] small E-Cats and one with the 4 Tigers, each section with a power of 1 MW. The
            strategy consists in using the 4 tigers, maintaining as a reserve the small E-Cats.

            • Ged

              Thanks for the reminder post. Piecing it all together visually.

        • Mike

          The fluid temperature in the visible pipes will be lower than the fluid temperature leaving the e-cat since the heat exchanger area is not infinite. A higher pressure on the customer side will probably not allow the water to be distributed as steam. So did the customer use steam in the process or not? The steam temperature has earlier been said to be 100-101 degrees C.

          • Ged

            A further complication is we need to parse what were the specs the customer needed delivered, versus the specs of the 1 MW plant direct output. As far as I recall from the test agreement as published in the court docs, the customer needed 1 MW of heat and paid IH a daily rate based on delivery of that. But I don’t recall if the form of that heat reaching the customer had to be steam or not, just the form of the plant’s output had to be steam (cited at 101-103 C). Could have forgotten or missed that part though.

    • Observer

      In all the condensers I have seen, the water comes out the bottom. Why fight gravity?

  • sam

    Frank Acland
    August 1, 2016 at 6:50 PM
    Dear Andrea,

    You say that ‘production has started’ on the 1 MW E-Cat Plants. Congratulations! Some questions if you don’t mind.
    1. These are low-temperature E-Cat plants?
    2. The design has been finalized for these plants?
    3. How many plants are currently ordered?
    4. Can you build more than one at a time?
    5. When do you expect the first of these plants will be completed?
    6. When do you expect the frist of these plants will be installed?
    7. How many workers are involved in building these plants?
    8. Are you personally involved in production process, or have you delegated this task to others?

    Thank you,

    Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi
    August 1, 2016 at 7:42 PM
    Frank Acland:
    1- yes, so far
    2- not exclusively
    3- confidential
    4- yes
    5- I prefer to reserve the answer
    6- I will give information of it when it will be working
    7- enough
    8- I am personally involved
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Frank Acland

    This photo also bears out Rossi’s statements that there were two containers — one for the plant itself (with the doors open), and the other being the workplace for Rossi and his team. AR said that he spent most of his time in the workplace container, going into the plant container when needed.

    • Ged

      And we have seen pictures from inside both containers too, and they are completely different of course. We actually have a surprisingly good idea of what the place looked like from the photo evidence.

      • sam

        One picture of inside the customer plant would be nice.

        • Ged

          Hopefully the court grabs that for us.

      • Mark

        have we seen from both containers? i only remember seeing of the plant??

        • Ged

          Indeed, we have. We saw electronics being worked on at a workbench in the other container, as well as an AC unit in the wall and some beefy computer controllers that linked to the plant to allow control. A nice office space.

          • Mark

            Ah yes I remember the one 🙂 thanks

      • Frank Acland

        Another point of confirmation — Someone (I think Mats Lewan) reported that the plant was raised up on wooden blocks, and the photo shows that.

  • GiveADogABone

    I am going to have to change my view, metaphorically and literally, of this top pipe. The top pipe goes over the wall and casts a shadow down it. What I saw as a small pipe at the top is actually the well-lit wall behind and under the pipe. The shadow is the critical point. Apologies.

    • Engineer48

      Guys,

      There was a heat exchanger between the ECat and the customer load.

      Those visible pipes could be connecting to the customer side of the heat exchanger, which could be sitting at the middle of the 40ft container and connected to the 4 slab ECat reactor steam outlets by a meter or so of pipe, ie just on the outer side of the right side container wall.

      Note the BIG steam pipe on the ceiling, between the prime & backup reactors, running across the container.

      • Engineer48

        Better view of the Steam pipe running across the container.

        I imagine the heat exchanger is installed next to the right side container wall and that Steam pipe runs straignt a meter or so to the inlet of the heat exchanger.

        • Ged

          Oh wow, it even says steam on it. I didn’t notice that. And that is a big pipe.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Ged,

            Also note the 2 pipes run behind the 2 end doors of the container, so the heat exchanger is behind the container.

            That means the two open greenishyellow doors are at the slab reactor end of the container and the Steam pipe exits to the right side as the direction arrow indicates.

            So we now know where the heat exchanger is located.

  • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

    If you load that picture in a separate tab you can see more on the right… which clearly shows that one of the loading bay doors is open; daylight is coming in. Any time it got too hot in there they could…. dun Dun DUN… open the door.

    There’s also a fan in the corner of the ceiling.

    The customer’s side seems to also have a shipping container… same height… but it has either been blacked out in image processing or is covered with a black drape.

  • Gerard McEk

    It seems to me a very depressing location to spent a year long every night….. And then to find out that it was not rewarded.
    Now I can really understand that Andrea wants to fight a war to get his 89M.

    • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

      With $11.5M already in his pocket and a cohort of co-conspirators willing to let everything ride.

      Seems ridiculous, right?

  • Slad

    The top pipe is way too small to carry 1MW of steam

    • GiveADogABone

      Yes. I pointed that out to Frank a bit earlier.
      Frank,
      Just a small picky point from the photo. The steam will be in
      the large bore pipe(with a thickness of insulation) and the water will be in the small bore pipe.

    • Karl Venter

      I agree
      Are they getting 1 Mw of heat at 100deg at very very low pressure through that pipe — would be very very good.? Need 1500kg/hr steam if I am not mistaken?
      My guess is its 4 inch – max six inch pipe with some insulation? Very difficult

      • Engineer48

        Hi Karl,

        Have a look at this pipe. Then imagine it penetrates the container side wall and directly connects to the heat exchanger.

        External Pipes we see may be those that connect the customer load to the heat exchanger.

    • Timar

      Such a generalized argument makes no sense. The tube diameter needed to carry 1 MW of steam depends entirely on the pressure and flow rate of the steam. If the flow rate is high enough, even a diameter of a few cm may be more than sufficient to carry 1 MW.

      To put it in perspective: Our municipality here has a cogeneration plant that produces 225 MW of district heating. The pipe that can carry up to 100(!) MW of steam to the town center is about three feet in diameter, half of which is probably insulation.

      • Karl Venter

        Hi Timar

        I believe the flow rate was given as 36 000kg per day? /or 36000l per day
        I believe the pressure was also give and just above 1 bar (abs)
        Temp given 100deg C
        Will the pipe in question do it?

        • Omega Z

          Approximately 5.5 gallons of water per minute.
          Approximately 1.37 gallons of water per 250 KW reactor.

          • Ged

            Which seems to calculate out to ~0.0046 – 0.0055 m/s for water at that flow rate if the estimates of the two pipe sizes are correct (~1 foot inner diameter, or a DN300 sized pipe; both look the same size) using the tools here http://www.tlv.com/global/TI/calculator/ . Well within the recommended max water flow speeds http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/flow-velocity-water-pipes-d_385.html . Of course, faster in the actual smaller pipes feeding the reactors, but there are two orders of magnitude to play with to stay within safe limits at these rates.

            And 8.5 m/s for steam at that flow rate in that pipe size at 0.04-0.1 bar(G) (which gives the proper 101-103 temp range cited). That is well within the maximum 30-40 m/s safe limit for steam speed cited for distribution mains http://www2.spiraxsarco.com/esc/eng/help/ss_new_pipe_eng.asp (though one source says turbines use up to 100 m/s, and another that superheated steam max speed should not exceed 20 m/s).

            So, the numbers seems to check out with what we see, with plenty of head room for estimation errors.

      • Slad

        Perhaps you’d be better thinking about how big a pipe needs to be to carry 1MW of steam at an acceptable velocity, and at a reasonable pressure, rather than considering an extreme example of “a few cm” diameter.

    • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

      The top pipe is about 1/9th the size of the open green door it is behind.

      If the door can be assumed to be about 9 feet high, then the pipe diameter is around 1 foot. There’s perspective involved too; the pipe is actually farther away than the door… not clear how much… but that would make it a little larger than 1 foot.

      If a 3 foot pipe can carry 100 MW of heating as Timar notes then I imagine a 1 foot pipe can handle 1 MW.

      • Slad

        length isn’t too important as steam isn’t that viscous.

    • Ged

      How big would a pipe need to be to carry 1 MW of steam at a certain flow rate and pressure?

      • Slad

        5in diameter keeps the velocity and pressure reasonably low.

        • Ged

          Thank you that info.

          It seems the pipe we see inside and outside is more than big enough for the 1 MW worth of steam at 36,000 kg/day. I did the calculations to Omega Z below, and the pipe size we see fits correctly with the rated specs of the plant if it works as advertised; for flow speed and pressure at the given temperatures and daily flow rate with a very big allowance for estimation errors.

          Not sure what else we can check with these images about that.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Slad,

      Look at the size of the steam pipe running across the container as attached.

      Imagine that Steam pipe penetrating the container side wall and them directly attaching to the inlet of the ECat side of the heat exchanger that is sitting on the other side of the container wall. I suggest it can easily carry 1MW of heat a few meters.
      .
      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/da8ca8ef6e7aba9a1f1b85cd163cd4fed0510a58690262b98f74ea428895bb98.png

      • Slad

        Each module is 250kW? Only needs smaller pipe?

    • Sean

      Depends on the diameter / temp and steam pressure. My miniature steam Loco has to provide 11 Kilowatts to the three high pressure cylinders. This is super-heated dry steam being supplied from the boiler through a 5/8″ copper pipe @ 120 PSI.

      • Slad

        only 120psi eh?

        • Sean

          Plenty of power for a 4-6-2 Locomotive (7 1/4″ Gauge). I drove a 15″ Loco non super-heated at 150 PSI. The actual real 4-6-2 pacific ran at 220psi. That did 100 MPH (Locomotive 4472). I would like to put several 1MW LENR reactors on the rear of any full size locomotive to prove its viability. It would certainly alert the public on the six o clock news that there is new fire. Plenty on preserved steam locomotives in Brit land.

          • Slad

            Sorry, I should know better than to use sarcasm. I was implying the 120psi is quite a lot!

            • sean

              I am still building it. At a straight and level track you can pull 40+ people. Speeds should be kept low to be safe. It is possible to go 12 to 15MPH. The 15″ Gauge 0-4-0 was clocked at 25MPH. Steam is very powerful but was never efficient. However in the nuclear industry, its very good for transferring energy as with the Ecat LENR.

    • Obvious

      It was in NC for the photo, so it didn’t have to.

      • Obvious

        The two photos of the exterior of the red Plant are definitely in Doral. I have found some interior shots of a twin of the warehouse in the same development. The other unit is a mirror image of unit 7861. So I mirrored it (below) to get it the right way around, to get an idea of the space.
        These units are huge. Most of the unit space is not in this (below) collage of the twin unit.
        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/90312ad043681264ab155ccd9019027ae964eb28e7f575b7dc4a02c79b8d2710.jpg

        • Engineer48

          Hi Obvious,

          Nice find!

          Well done.

          • Obvious

            I’m glad something makes sense.

  • http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/ barty

    What?? It was just some kind of “room divider”?

    It would have been easy to watch over that wall.

    Where is this picture from?

    • GiveADogABone

      Perhaps all the interesting bits were inside a transport container and the doors faced the other way?

      • http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/ barty

        So you mean the energy of 1 MW heat (if any, very doubtful with this photo) was pumped into a volume of a shipping container all the time?

        This thing would have glown like the hotcat itself…

        • GiveADogABone

          Yes.

          Bottom pipe looks fine for a short pipe for 1MW of steam. Other E-cat containers show a similar pipe exiting. 1MW comes out of an E-cat container and you can walk around inside it while it runs.

          What may be the problem here is that the heat also leaves by another route and we do not know the route.

          • http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/ barty

            Yes, the main problem with the information from this picture is:

            In the customer’s container a very endothermic chemical reaction has to take place, which absorbs all that energy. What should/could that be?

            Jed Rothwell is arguing that there is nothing which continously absorbs such amounts of energy. So the rest of the heat has to went out as waste heat into the hall, which would cook all the human inside.

            • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

              Some heat will be used and stored by the process, whatever it is (sponge metal?).

              The rest will heat materials and the air around it. Many have addressed the hot air issue. Engineer48 and GiveADogABone showed successfully how 1 MW could be exhausted through the roof given what’s known about the vents up there. Rumors from the Industrial Heat camp though are that they were up on the roof with IR cameras and didn’t see that heat.

              What I haven’t seen anyone address to my satisfaction yet is the solid material convection. This may be unrealistic, but imagine the scenario where the customer’s process is mostly unmanned in a closed shipping container. The container metal would get very hot. But what if there was a heat conducting rod or rods or a plate that would favor the heat going into the giant heat sink known as the Earth? Perhaps the black material draped over the customer container is meant to keep the heat from getting to the air too much and forcing the heat into the ground.

              Imagine a 1 MW heater, directly heating up a large insulated tungsten rod going deep into the ground. Most of the heat would escape that way, not into the air.

              Perhaps the customer is using the ground as a primary heat sink somehow.

              • wpj

                If they were up on the roof with IR cameras during the running of the plant, then it suggests that they had major doubts (even with the quarterly reports) but continued with their quest to obtain funding. Fraud surely?

                • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

                  Depends when it happened, if it did happen.

                • wpj

                  Yes, very big “IF” if you ask me.

                • Ged

                  Satellite photos don’t show any people or IR cameras or other extra equipment up there for the times during the test that the sats photo’d. So there’s that at least.

                • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

                  It would have been very lucky for a snapshot to capture a crew on the roof. Satellite pics showing no people means nothing.

                • Ged

                  But no equipment either, so no long term monitoring was done, at least any that carried over into the image dates. It is the only real data we have about that unsubstantiated rumor, so far.

                • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

                  Fair enough. I thought maybe for a second you were an NSA guy and could dial up past and present video of anywhere on Earth : )

                • Ged

                  Well, to a degree that can be done :). I will have to look through such archives later when I can, and see if I can’t scrounge up more past images within the proper date range for that location. Your point above about the doors (basically the whole back wall) is also salient.

                • Robert Dorr

                  They could have easily combined utility water, probably 15 to 20 degrees C, with the high temperature, anywhere from 60 to 100 degrees C, waste return water (the water that exited the heat ex-changer) to bring it into code for dumping into the sewer system. Bye, Bye to the mysterious deadly heat that would supposedly kill everyone in the container. By the way they weren’t generally in the 1 MW plant container, they were usually located in the data container which was separate from the 1 MW plant.

              • Ted-Z

                The extra heat could be literally disposed into the sewer system, very easily, as a “warmed up cooling water”. There is no need for any rods and even very small ventilation would be sufficient.

                • Ged

                  That is a very good point I didn’t even consider. Thank you for the thought.

                • wpj

                  Jed R has been arguing that this is what happened. Period. Apparently there is a maximum discharge temperature into the sewerage system (60C, I have memories of).

                  If general, the sponge metals are made in water at 90C or thereabouts and excess heat is used to concentrate up the liquors to assist disposal.

                • Ged

                  You are correct, wpj. In Florida (at least Orlando, but also Massachusits has the same rule so it is probably universal), unless one gets a specific industrial discharge permit, discharge into the sewer must not exceed 60 C. See:
                  https://www.municode.com/library/fl/orlando/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=TITIICICO_CH30RESEUSRA_S30.02GESEUSRE#!

                  “(xi)
                  Any wastewater having a temperature which will inhibit biological activity at the WRF or interfere with treatment processes as defined in this Chapter shall not be discharged in such quantities to raise the temperature of the influent headworks above 104°F (40°C). Unless a higher temperature is allowed in the Industrial User Discharge Permit, no user shall discharge into any sewer, or other appurtenance of the wastewater system, wastes with a temperature exceeding 140°F (60°C);”

              • Ged

                That is a very interesting thought. Geothermal heating and cooling by heat pumps is argued as the most reliable and long term cost effective HVAC system, just most expensive installation cost. https://www.trane.com/residential/en/products/heating-and-cooling/geothermal-systems.html and http://energy.gov/energysaver/choosing-and-installing-geothermal-heat-pumps

                This could also dump the plant’s heat, as you suggest. I just don’t know if anyone would be allowed to bore through the foundation of a rental warehouse to set up the ground loop, though, or what arrangements are required for that; but it is another possibility.

              • Omega Z

                ->”the Industrial Heat camp” obviously don’t know what they are talking about.
                They are spreading FUD. They should work a real job where some serious heat is produced. 1 MW isn’t very impressive.

                By the size of the building, I wouldn’t expect to see more then 1 or 2 degrees difference with an IR camera.

        • Smart Alex
        • Omega Z

          barty,

          We have a bearing manufacturer where I live. Wish I could arrange a tour for you and many others here at ECW so you would realize that 1MW is not a lot of heat. Their heat teat department is about 15,000 square foot or about 2.5 times the facility Rossi operated in. There Facility has 2- 10`x12` bay doors similar to the facility Rossi was in and a 4 foot square cupolas on the roof near the center.

          They produce about 30 MW’s of heat 24/7 50 weeks a year. Furnaces that run 1500`F to 2100`F and nearly all that heat dissipates in a passive manner through the walls and roof. All the while about a dozen people are working in there 24/7. No body melts although it is to hot to see people physically sweat.

          As to your, “glowing like the hotcat”

          If I blow 100`F air into an already 100`F temperature room, how hot can it possibly get?

    • Ged

      The picture was posted by Guest quite a long while ago. There was actually a pretty big analysis discussion about it and other pictures about the pipes, revolving around their sizes, a few threads back.

  • GiveADogABone

    Frank,
    Just a small picky point from the photo. The steam will be in the large bore pipe(with a thickness of insulation) and the water will be in the small bore pipe.

  • Ophelia Rump

    How in the world do professional adults arrange a validation where nothing is verifiable?

    I think it comes down to one simple concept, Cherokee and IH never had any intention of honoring their contract once they go their hands on Dottore Rossi’s technology.

    They should have terminated their association at that point, but instead supplied employees to spy on Dottore Rossi. While never having the intention to pay for successful completion of the contract.

    Is there any possibility that the judge can prevent them or anyone associated with them from using any technology similar to Dottore Rossi’s technology, in order to counter the potential that the entire affair was a sophisticated form of industrial espionage?

    • nietsnie

      And it would also seem, in as much as IH was unable to build their own working Ecat, that Rossi had no intention to give IH the keys to the Ecat either.

      • Ophelia Rump

        The IH team built and ran their own from documentation only at the outset.

        IH started from proof of concept and then went to ambiguous.

    • Gerald

      Yes, giving away control by not selecting the client by IH is quit strange. There are only 1.5 options. The 1 they wanted to see what Rossi delivered for 10 mio for whatever reason and the .5 is after seeing the plant they cut their 10 mio loses. But then they wouldn’t have mentioned Rossi ever again. No the most out of normal behaviour is IH not getting the client selected. And that could be something that could hit them back, it looks like they underestimated Rossis endurance. Lol and maybe helped because the quark came up.

  • http://www.chatwing.com/eestorchat EEStorFanFibb

    LOL, remember when Weaver insisted the customer’s plant was in the adjacent warehouse? heh.

    • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

      Probably not disinformation though. More like second hand info that he misunderstood.

      Weaver has his own point of view and agenda to protect a good friend and his own business interests. While he may be privy to inside info, we have to remember to filter everything through his intent and the fact that he was likely not on the front lines… instead only getting fed info from the IH side. And we know IH has their own agenda as well.

      So plenty of opportunity for both false information with a purpose and mistaken information due to hearsay to come from Dewey.

      That’s why it’s important to hear from IH directly, as they said themselves.