Q&As on E-Cat Production Status

Below are some Q&As from the Journal of Nuclear Physics from July 23rd about the current state of production and testing of E-Cats products.

How is work going with the 1MW E-Cat plants? — Well

Do you have multiple customers with orders in for the 1MW E-Cat plants (low temperature)? — Yes

How is work going with the QuarkX? — still very promising

Is the QuarkX mature enough to be incorporated into industrial plants? — not yet

Do you have any customers with orders in for QuarkX plants? — pre-order

What is the status of having a factory or factories ready to produce your products? — in the USA we are producing industrial; in Sweden we are preparing the factory

That is great news about producing industrial E-Cats in the US factory. Is this accomplished through manual labor or robotics? — Manual labour, so far, but we are working very hard to complete our production capacity with the help of ABB. I really hope we will have our robotized lines at least installed by the end of the year. I really hope, but there are problems to be resolved. A lot of work has still to be done.

How many individual Quark X’s have been built so far that have proven to operate satisfactorily? — several tens

What’s the longest length of time a single Quark X has ran continuously? — 6 months

How many Quark X’s do you have have running at the same time on a daily basis? — 3

What is the general temperature range of a Quark X when configured to produce maximum electrical production? — above 1573 K

Do you think that a factory to produce Quark’s could fit into a shipping container that you could then sell? For example, you feed components (fuel, tubes, wires, electrodes, etc) down one end, a line of robots do the assembly, and completed Quark’s come out the other end? — no

If the above is possible, could a small, compact Quark “factory” actually be a product in and of itself? — no

My impression here is of Rossi and his team working to get production underway, but still having to deal with the practical limitations that come with probably limited funds, limited staff and new products. His answers here indicate that they still have to build the low temperature plants by hand, and that automated production is still under development with unspecified problems that still need resolving.

It sounds to me like there are some interested customers lined up to who are willing to take a chance on the E-Cat. Rossi has mentioned that the customer who used the heat from the 1-year 1MW pilot project in Florida has ordered more products, and there are apparently are other customers they are working with. Rossi said recently that the first application for the E-Cat would be in district heating projects. With winter approaching in the northern hemisphere, it will be interesting to see if any E-Cat projects are launched this year.

  • Fedir Mykhaylov

    Apparently buyer uses the heat in the aluminum leaching of Raney nickel. Apparently it does not require drastic changes in steam flow or instant termination of its submission.

  • GiveADogABone

    For a 4kW solar array :
    Potential yearly output capacity 24*356*4=34176kWh/year
    Actual measured and billed yearly output =2800kWh/yr
    Capacity factor =2800/34176 = 8.2%
    If you calculate the January capacity factor it is at least a factor of ten worse (1% say) and January is my peak demand.

    This ridiculous piece of kit is on my roof but it is still economic because of the ridiculously high subsidies over twenty years. I am just subsidy farming and it is the poor people who are paying for it in their electricity bills; the ones who cannot join this middle class game. I only bought the thing so I could be disgusted on the basis of the evidence (whilst I make a profit doing it (and that disgusts me as well because I know who is paying)).

    The cost of the backup plant to supply my house in winter is 4kW of generation on the grid and the fossil fuel/nuclear to supply it. That generation is now uneconomic because of the lost generation over the year. Who is going to supply my backup and at what cost so I can have electricity in January? Yes, that’s right, its the poorer people again.

    https://www.carbonbrief.org/ma… Oct 2015 –
    De-rated capacity is falling. Combined with the unprofitability of building new gas-fired generation, this is creating a UK “capacity crunch“.
    What this intermittent and unreliable renewables lark is doing is collapsing the grid. In Germany the process has gone further and it is inflicting real and serious pain.

    • Rene

      Where are you located where you get such a crappy capacity figure?
      For me, I get almost 300% over my needs from March until December and then 90% of my winter needs, and that’s only because at the time I set up my system panels were expensive. Location matters.

      • GiveADogABone

        52 degrees north in Europe. As you now realize, I meant it. Ridiculous.

  • clovis ray

    Hi,guys.
    I can see many new jobs ahead, and AR the CEO,of the largest company in the world, he could have just turn it over to someone like
    i h,or abb ,dr.R,in my opinion is the only one up to do the work.
    And do it the correct way this will lnsure everyone will be helped by e cat.
    This is a huge undertaking,but everything
    The e cat will touch, will cause job,jobs,jobs.
    Thats what it will take,to spur our old pony
    To pull a little harder.

  • Axil Axil

    Rossi has a long way to go. He needs a computerized control system. Rossi must now become a real time software expert.

    Andrea Rossi
    July 25, 2016 at 9:33 PM
    Frank Acland:
    The construction is going on. The difficulty and the improvement are generated to the necessity to make a subject that does not need Andrea Rossi inside 16- 18 hours per day, and the engineer and the technician of IH for 8 hours per day. We need a subject able to work alone, with nobody, but a certified operator that has to chenk tha gauges now and again.
    To write this is easy, to imagine that it is not simple is easy too, but to understand really the difficulties is impossible foe anybody that has not lived with the plant, inside the plant, for one year of his own life. The problems we had during the year have been multiple, have been resolved by our great team because we were there immediately when something is gone wrong.
    Now the E-Cat must be able to work alone.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    The first plane designers would have been in an impossible position if asked to replace the pilot in their bi-planes with a fully automated robotic control system.

    Rossi will not subcontract out this software job.

    We are just going to have to wait for Rossi to do this control system job on his own.

    • Gerald

      Today we have something “sweet” like Artificial Intelligent. If its good or bad I don’t want to discus but maybe Rossie could learn from them or seek advise.

      Like the guy who build automation car software in a few month. Instead of building algorimtes if this is the outcome that you are going to do, no he did think otherwise. He “told” his program to act as the cars around theme, and by driving every mile the software got better in understanding what had to be done. More like a human learning to drive.

      Maybe in Rossi’s case this could work, learn from Rossi. I know it is still two worlds builing/plant automation and it-automation but it could’not hurt him to get advise. ABB has invested in vicarious, they see the potentional also.

      • Thomas Kaminski

        I recently viewed a talk from a Google manager entitled “Large-Scale Deep Learning for Building Intelligent Computer Systems,” a Keynote Presentation at the Embedded Vision Conference. In the talk, he explained how to program and have the networks “learn” about the process. It was stunning what had been done in production code. The state of the art is rapid in the neural network field.

        I also viewed a video from the IEEE Robotics and Automation Society where Google, by using the “deep learning” techniques, had robot arms teach themselves how to pick up objects. The article and linked to video is here:

        http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/artificial-intelligence/google-large-scale-robotic-grasping-project

        I suspect that the LENR process can be “learned” by some sort of controller, but I think we have to know more about the LENR process model first. There are a number of simple controllers with “auto tune” built in for such tasks as temperature or pressure control. They typically assume a linear systems model controllable by the PID (Proportional, Integral, Derivative) control.

    • wpj

      Thought that this was the job of Fabiani? If he still has the apartment below AR, then it might be assumed that he is still working with him.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Wpj,

        There has been a control system since 2012 as attached.

        • Engineer48

          Linked to central computer as well.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            The diagram is in fact, a “control system”, but it stands to reason that a very critical part of the control is the algorithm running on said system. I managed a large group of software and hardware engineers and the running joke was that the product release was just a “small matter of programming” once the hardware was done. Software for complex systems is the dominant engineering development cost these days.

            It seems to me that the LENR process is a non-linear process, and given my knowledge of the current theory for non-linear control, I believe that it is a difficult task to generate an appropriate control algorithm, especially since the underlying model is poorly understood. If, in fact, there was a proper model of the LENR process, it still would be a difficult task to generate a robust control algorithm.

            Time will solve the puzzle, however. Too much money is at stake for it not to be solved.

            • GiveADogABone

              Non-linear control becomes highly mathematical very quickly.
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_control

              If you then try to control a non-linear system with a computer, the computer can generate its own numerical instabilities and the two can interact. If Rossi has that sort of problem, then he could have a lot of engineering to get right.

        • wpj

          I’m aware of that, though it seems like he has more work to do

    • Rene

      “Rossi has a long way to go. He needs a computerized control system. Rossi must now become a real time software expert.”-Axil
      Better said is that he needs a working autonomous control system. He already has a control system that works some percentage of the time, but still needs manual hand holding, especially at high COPs. And too, I think this problem is more the consequence of high thermal mass designs like the reactors in the 1MW plant. It looks to me that Rossi’s switch to the quark design is more than just higher temperatures – it is also about much lower thermal mass and possible short-term self quenched quick-restart reactions, as in 50/60Hz.

    • Fedir Mykhaylov

      I think the system of automatic control and monitoring of parameters developed for Rossi Fulvio Fabiani

  • Roland

    My time horizon is for the widespread certification of a domestic LENR device, somehow you neglect to notice that a commercially viable LENR device already exists and is current available for lease from Leonardo Corporation.

    It is known as the E-cat powered 1megawatt low temperature steam plant, it’s been discussed in depth and at length on this and other forums as the beta version just successfully completed a year long test leading to further orders for the device.

    Are you exceptionally stupid or just that deliberately obtuse ?

    • Fedir Mykhaylov

      It is very difficult to find the relevant industrial customers in need of a couple with a temperature of 100 degrees Celsius at atmospheric pressure.

  • MasterBlaster7

    By all indications here, economic penetration of (warm) e-cat seems imminent. Why do I get the feeling that it is not so imminent?

    I want it to be imminent…I need it to be imminent…but I have this little voice whispering in my ear…’vapor ware’

    Time will tell.

    • GiveADogABone

      It does make steam so vapourware would be right.

      • MasterBlaster7

        This is no time for jokes…but nice play on words.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      I was under the impression that the ABB/Sweden factory was for Quark-X’s. As noted, the designs of the QuarkX is not finalized. Until such time, the factory does not make sense.

      As for the USA? Well, was the ecat plant built here, or overseas?

      I have assumed that the USA production was going to be the low-temp ecats and such production would benefit from some automation. It not clear how much automation this current 1MW design is suitable for automation. So design changes likely would be required for automated production. So time, money and resources will dictate this progress.

      It seems that Rossi wants a few more of the 1WM plants built – this is a good thing. So while factories and automated production is desired, practical limitations in terms of designs and money will prevent this from occurring for some time.

      It’s better to get a few more plants out and in operation – that will in turn provide seed funding for the next round of devices that are designed for and around automated production.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

      • Gerald

        Agreed. Almost nothing to automated at the 1MW. Smaller quarks ok, but when a lot of plumbing comes in you can build a production line but use robots becomes challenging. It is all still in premature stage when its usable the industry will join.

        • Fedir Mykhaylov

          It seems to me that the automatic robotized production lines to apply to the quark. This is the production of light bulbs. But nobody is going to automate the installation of lighting wiring in the building.

    • roseland67

      Blaster,

      “Imminent” is one that I have not heard yet,
      “soon, any day now, right around the corner, all brakes are off, investors lined up” etc. are common.
      Hope you’re right amigo, but from what I’ve read, It appears that Rossi does not yet have a working control system, so , imminent, may be to hopeful.

    • Fedir Mykhaylov

      Boilers with such low parameters require a very specific customer. For heating the required parameters At least 120 degrees Celsius and the pressure 7 atm.

  • wpj

    Afraid he did say it when questioned by someone as to why there were none of the promised factories.

    “All brakes off” was after the split from IH

  • Gerard McEk

    What I read between the lines is that the QuarkX works fine but it has to be proven that it can operate reliably during a long time. To prove this you will need to operate it many weeks/months and that is time consuming.
    I am sure that AR’s ‘partner’ demanded proof of the reliability.

  • Roland

    Do you mean to remain intentionally clueless forever?

  • sam

    Frank Acland
    July 24, 2016 at 2:51 PM
    Dear Andrea,

    The problems you are working to solve with the Swedish factory: are they more technical, financial, or legal — at the moment?

    Thank you,

    Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi
    July 24, 2016 at 3:02 PM
    Frank Acland:
    The matter of the fact is that we do not have problems at all.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Chris Marshalk

    Is it WORTH spending money on solar panels or should I wait for the QuarkX/eat domestic????? How long is the wait going to be???

    • Roland

      The question is not dissimilar to trying to decide when solar prices have hit the sweet spot for your situation; for many domestic applications (given the right to sell power into the grid during daylight hours and the right location) solar makes economic sense right now when the capital costs are amortized over the life expectancy of the hardware.

      The most challenging aspect of domestic E-cats/Quarks are regulatory rather than technical and guessing when domestic units will qualify for certification is a crap shoot.

      The paperwork has already been filed but the first practical stages of that certification will be based on the track record of E-cat/Quarks in community and industrial applications where the hardware is professionally supervised as the control software that will allow extended unsupervised operation is still under development.

      The roll out of centralized community heating systems in Sweden will provide a useful indicator of progress towards scaled down domestic units and a timeframe for certification; this may or may not apply to your particular jurisdiction.

      A 3-5 year time frame for the certification and wide dissemination of domestic units seems feasible at the moment; if broadly correct this would suggest that the amortization period for your proposed purchase of a solar system should be contracted to about five years. If the numbers still work based on this much shorter time frame (i.e. you still save money over your current costs) going solar makes sense.

      Just about any way you slice it todays solar systems will be obsolete in fairly short order, due to technological advances, so the capital costs will not be recoverable through resale with or without domestic LENR.

      The purchase of solar systems generally have ecological and philosophical vectors in addition to the straight line economic calculations.

      For example you may choose to be an early LENR adopter through the philosophical conviction that supporting LENR is important to the future of the planet even if that means selling your solar system at a deep discount.

      • GiveADogABone

        We seem to be a bit OT here but things are a bit quiet, so :
        Not disagreeing with anything here but the real problem with solar, at least in temperate latitudes, is backup generation. Include the costs of backup in the equation, eliminate the subsidies and the economic case is hopeless. Germany and the UK have this problem right now; nobody wants to build the backup plant and the grid systems are crumbling. If you had to provide your own backup generation would you still buy?

        Solar power can be a good match to the system load curve in hot climates where air-conditioning provides the maximum system demand and this can be seen in the load curve in California. In the afternoon the conventional generation drops as the solar panels deal with the air conditioning and the ‘California duck’ develops (websearch california duck curve).

        Conclusion: If you live in a Californian climate and have air conditioning, solar could make sense.

        • Omega Z

          If you live (California area, Hawaii) where electricity is already $0.40 KW with peek demand prices of $0.80 KW then Solar makes sense…

          • GiveADogABone

            In the UK system peak demand is at about 1700 hours in January (the colder the weather, the greater the demand) as people come home from work and turn everything on. Solar generation will be nil but the wind turbines might be working.

            The worst case scenario is a stable, high pressure weather system. Cold, clear skies and no wind and they can last for days. System capacity margin has dropped to near zero; it used to be 20%. Generation capacity under construction is zero as far as I know.

            https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-how-the-uk-generates-its-electricity12 Oct 2015 – De-rated capacity is falling. Combined with the unprofitability of building new gas-fired generation, this is creating a UK “capacity crunch“.

            • Roland

              There’s an interesting solar design that generates power 24/7, unfortunately there’s no operational example yet but conceptually it makes sense at an industrial scale.

              Admittedly it’s not suited to the UK climate as the potential benefits are best realized where land costs are low, the climate is arid and sunshine is plentiful.

              The design is the solar tower and it operates through convection; there is a 1,800ft. tower at the centre of a 1/2 mile diameter installation of glass raised a few meters above the ground.

              The air heated beneath the glass enters the central column through ducted fans that drive generators, the air flow continues during the night as the ground under the glass area gives up it’s stored heat.

              The temperature differential under the glass to the top of the tower will drive the system in almost any weather other than torrential rains, hence location still matters.

              This is the only solar design I know of that attempts to address the issues that arise with the ratio of conventional base load requirements needed under all potential adverse conditions to the proliferation of wind and solar PV installations.

              I expect that we’re fully in accord on this; LENR resolves the inherent tradeoffs raised by renewables power generation and offers a complete long term solution to civilization’s pressing need for a source of clean reliable inexpensive power.

              Solar Tower design infomercial:

              http://www.enviromission.com.au/EVM/content/movies/discoverychannel.html

              • GiveADogABone

                The Achilles’ Heel of intermittent and unreliable renewables is storage and there are many ways of attempting to tackle the problem but the costs have to be competitive.

                Another way to store solar is to use the electricity to generate Hydrogen and then inject it into a flowing gas main. ( http://www.rwe.com/web/cms/en/183748/rwe/innovation/projects-technologies/energy-storage/ )

                The tide times around the UK vary. Three tidal barrages located at the right places can produce a generation curve that is reasonably flat (www.tidallagoonswanseabay.com)

                • Fedir Mykhaylov

                  Rule Britannia over the waves …
                  We reconstruct our coast …

                • GiveADogABone

                  I’m afraid so and a continuous line of windmills along the dam walls just to enhance the view.

    • Rene

      It’s worth spending money on PV panels if your need is immediate. Quark e-cats are a down the road by years.

  • wpj

    It would be good to know how close to completion the three new UK units are.

  • wpj

    Deep pockets???? Anyway, it looks from the contract that they held the power.

  • GiveADogABone

    IH v ABB(+ Rossi) in the USofA.
    What chance IH can stop them?
    What chance IH will be able to sell anything?

    • Roland

      It’s interesting that Rossi brought ABB up again after having recently demurred.

      I raise this in the context of earlier comments by Rossi that the Swedish customer is also participating in the manufacture of E-cats/Quarks; from everything I’ve learned about ABB they’d make an absolutely first rate partner for Leonardo by any number of metrics.

      I hope that this is indeed the case.

  • wpj

    At least he can spell “labour” correctly! Obviously not lived in the US long enough.

    • Brokeeper

      Spelled labor in US and Australia. 🙂

      • wpj

        Would have expected better from Australia😂😂

        • Brokeeper

          lol!

    • William D. Fleming

      What about “metre”? We should try to do bettre.

      • wpj

        Depends if it’s an SI unit of measurement or something for the gas company to look at.

  • wpj

    He said that everything stopped when IH came on board in 2012.

  • kenko1

    My money’s on no factory by the end of 2016, 2017, 2018 & beyond.

  • Robert Dorr

    Funding changes, plans change.

  • http://www.chatwing.com/eestorchat EEStorFanFibb

    this whole Q&A is really great. but I like this part especially: “in Sweden we are preparing the factory”

    I assume then that he bought it. last we heard he was in talks to buy it. is this confirmation that the factory deal went through?

    • Ged

      He said he made the commitment to buy it shortly after he made his bid and Mats Lewan posted the article about it.

    • Barbierir

      See below my post

  • Alain Samoun

    I wonder if Mats Lewan has more information on the Rossi’s plant in Sweden?

  • Gerald

    So what we already speculated on its ABB. Would love the extend of the help from them.

    • http://www.chatwing.com/eestorchat EEStorFanFibb

      I also like that he name dropped ABB again. Rossi is giving us stuff that is fact check-able. shows he’s confident imo

      • Bruce__H

        But all he is saying is that he bought something from ABB. Is this not correct?

        • Gerald

          Yes, how he said it could be both, it is somewhat in the middle for me. From what I read from Rossi he normaly doesn’t have a big mouth about things Like look I drive a big mercedes. So it means something to him to have ABB equipment. For me I just mark this comment from him in my head and when the next big stragegy update comes from ABB I’ll see if there’s a slight change in direction they have taken 2 years ago. I just want to know in a few years (if the e-cat is real and usable) how things got played out. Just for myself living history and maybe be able to predict some future in time.

          • GiveADogABone

            ABB ( http://www.abb.com/ ) is far more than just factory automation. It is everything that IH lacks. It has global reach across a whole range of industrial products and crucially it is a major engineering equipment manufacturer. It has the design expertise to rapidly develop the Rossi technology. With factories in America and Sweden, they can pull in the resources to expand rapidly. IH are going to be outclassed all ways you look at it.

      • Ged

        Very good point. Wonder how we could check. I doubt ABB will give its customer list to anyone but a subpoena.

  • Ged

    0 K is -273.15 C. Easy conversion, just subtract 273.15 from K to get C.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Is there some significance to operating above 1573 K?
    That seems like a very precise number to simply specify something is hotter than.
    Most people would choose a round number like 1500 K.

    • Alan Smith

      Dear Ophelia Rump. 1573K is actually 1500C. Rossi is simply measuring from Absolute Zero rather than 0C.

      • Leonard Weinstein

        1573K is 1300C

        • Alan Smith

          Yes- an arithmetic error on my part – 1300C. But there you go, it’s Sunday afternoon and a knockout lunch, several glasses of red wine and F1 racing and the Tour de France all on the same day are proving too much for me. But to answer Ophelia, Degrees Kelvin (K) is the standard scientific notation.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Thank you, that is very insightful.

        Is it Common to translate from C to K like that?
        Both You and Dottore Rossi seem to do it casually.

        • Monty

          It is a quite well known number this 273.15

    • Bob Greenyer

      1300C

    • GiveADogABone

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan%E2%80%93Boltzmann_law
      j= sigma * T^4

      The T MUST be in absolute temperatures.

      If you are doing lots of radiation heat transfer calcs, it is normal to work with K.
      It simplifies the arithmetic.

  • Barbierir

    In the end did he buy the plot of land for the factory in Sweden that he made an offer for? Enough time has passed for already signing the preliminary agreement, if the offer was ever accepted or negotiated.

    • Barbierir

      I asked the question on Jonp but it was edited, my question if the factory “had been bought” was changed into a more generic “in preparation” and the answer is in future tense. I must assume still in negotiation phase…

      dear dr. Rossi
      so have Leonardo Corporation together with Hydrofusion already in preparation the factory building in Sweden ?
      my regards
      Renzo

      Yes. We will have two factories to manufacture the E-Cats, one in the USA and one in Sweden.
      Warm Regards
      A.R.

  • GiveADogABone

    I cannot help thinking that the probable E-cat delivery schedule from the American plant will have a considerable impact on the Florida court case. When will the first delivery be?

    • Brokeeper

      That tactical move occurred to me as well – a need to quickly verify the 1MW plant with thee replicates for the UK test customer by manually manufacturing E-Cats now verses waiting for ABB to set up for mass robotic production.