Mats Lewan Meets Rossi in Sweden, Rossi Bidding on Factory For QuarkX Production

Mats Lewan has posted a new article in his An Impossible Invention blog where he reports on meeting Andrea Rossi last week in Sweden where he was visiting to look at a building for use as a factory. The article is here: https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/05/16/rossi-makes-offer-on-swedish-factory-building-plus-more-updates/

Mats has provided many interesting details in this article including the following items which he was told by Rossi.

  • The two IH representatives present at the test were Barry West and Fulvio Fabiani (who worked for Rossi from January 2012 until August 2013, when the MW plant was delivered to IH in North Carolina, after which he was paid by IH as an expert who would make the technology transition from Rossi to IH easier). West and Fabiani reported to JT Vaughn every day on the phone.
  • Three interim reports, about every three months, with basically the same results as in the final report, were provided by the ERV during the test.
  • During summer 2015, IH offered Rossi to back out from the test and cancel it, with a significant sum of money as compensation. Rossi’s counter offer was to give back the already paid 11.5M and cancel the license agreement, but IH didn’t accept.
  • The unidentified customer (‘JM Products’) using the thermal energy from the MW plant, had its equipment at the official address—7861, 46th Street, Doral, Fl. The total surface of the premises was 1,000 square meters, of which the MW plant used 400 and the customer 600.
  • The equipment of the customer measured 20 x 3 x 3 meters, and the process was running 24/7.
  • The thermal energy was transfered to the customer with heat exchangers and the heat that was not consumed was vented out as hot air through the roof.
  • The water heated by the MW plant was circulating in a closed loop, and since the return temperature was varying, due to different load in the process of the customer, Rossi insisted that the energy corresponding to heating the inflowing cooled water (at about 60˚C) to boiling temperature would not be taken into account for calculating the thermal power produced by the MW plant. The ERV accepted.
  • He also insisted that an arbitrary chosen 10 percent should be subtracted in the power calculation, with no other reason than to be conservative. The ERV accepted.
  • IH never had access to the customer’s area. At the end of the test, an expert hired by IH, insisted that it was important to know where the water came from and where it was used. The ERV explained that this had no importance.
  • The average flow of water was 36 cubic meters per day.
  • At the end of the test, the ERV dismounted all the instruments by himself, in the presence of Rossi and IH, packed them and brought everything to DHL for transportation to the instrument manufacturers who would recalibrate the instruments and certify that they were not manipulated.
  • After the test, IH wanted to remove the MW plant from the premises in Florida, but Rossi would not accept until the remaining $89M were paid according to the license agreement. Rossi’s and IH’s attorneys then agreed that both parties should lock the plant with their own padlocks (as opposed to the claim by Dewey Weaver that ‘IH decided to padlock the 1MW container after observing and documenting many disappointing actions and facts’).

It’s interesting to read that Industrial Heat apparently offered to pay Rossi to cancel the test, and that Rossi’s response was to return the $11.5 he had been paid to cancel the contract. It makes one wonder what IH’s reasoning would be for that. The article is well worth reading in full.

  • Engineer48

    My reference is that over quite some time period, I have worked with Rossi, for a potential client, to align the capability of what the 1MW ECat 1MWt plant can produce and what my potential clients require.

    He has never lied to me, never tried to deceive me nor asked for non escrowed up front money. ALL money paid was subjected to the plant he would deliver meeting agreed test conditions.

    BTW my potential client owns and operates a very large number of thermal power plants and so understand steam probably better than Rossi. Acceptance compliance testing would be done to a team of very highly qualified, skilled, experienced & skeptical engineers.

    It was in fact Rossi that showed me and my potential clients the current ECat 105C steam can’t deliver what they require, 600C steam to drive subcritical steam turbines. Current ECat, NO. QuarkX YES.

    So for a time our corro dropped off.

    Then my potential clients came back and asked me to investigate their purchase of 10 x 1MWt plants as they would like to investigate the reliability and the ability of the plant to adjust output as thermal load alters, especially in SSM mode.

    Now however their 1st target plant has been shut down and will be cut up and sold off.

    So the discussion continues but at a lower level until the litigation in the US is done & dusted.

    I will say again that at no time did anything Rossi said, imply he had anything but the highest regard to the process and having clients that are very satisfied at taking the risk on new technology.

    This is a very different process than following anti and pro comments based on “what I think or believe” on the blogs & forums.

    I can also tell you Rossi has no doubt he will get any money out of any potential client before his delivered product has met the client’s tough test requirements.

  • DNI

    The social security tax is paid by the employer. It is 31,42% on the total salary (including personal income tax).

    The corporate tax is 22 % on the companies profit (after paying social security tax).

    The sales tax or VAT is deductible for companies. Hence it is only paid by persons. But maybe it’s the same every where?

    Yes, Rossi would end up in the highest bracket if he take is profit out in salay. But I don’t find that is very likely. It will probable be taken out in share dividend. Then he will get 22 % in corporate tax and 30 % tax on the share dividend. A total of 52 %.

  • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

    If there is a real thrid party producer this is a very good calorimetry test.
    Industrial process are optimized, and just counting the number of piece produced is an indication of heat consumed.

    it eliminate many source of error and frauds.

    it is like allowing people to touch at the factory, to install their own meters on the device.
    It show that the inventor is not afraid to be tested.

    I was quite positive until recently because :
    – I imagines IH installed the meters, as the prducer, and LC
    – I imagined the client was an industrialist with products to produce
    – I imagined that all was clear for the people of IH, the prducer and LC
    – I imagined Penon was very serious guy with a good backlog (he have a good CV)

    today all is to be reconsidered, not even sure to be bad.

    Many reported behaviors of Rossi are raising red flag.

    today the only godo test seems Ferarra , with fair calibration, and some freedom to check many things.

    Lugano is broken, and only reason to believe it may have worked is that Rossi was not there during the full test.

    1MW test, from the lack of data and the few leaks is without any merit. It can change.

    If I was Dewey I would bet on Brillouin, on IH researshers (Miley,Letts, McKubre…), and on basic researsh like LENRG projects, or japanese NEDO programs

    • Robert Dorr

      Other than the fact that I.H wasn’t allowed to see what was being produced, nothing you said above has changed from what we have known. You’re letting people like Dewey Weaver get to you. If you understand the science then making something with the heat produced is just simply for show, nothing more.

  • DNI

    The social security tax is paid by the employer. It is 31,42% on the total salary (including personal income tax).

    The corporate tax is 22 % on the companies profit (after paying social security tax).

    The sales tax or VAT is deductible for companies. Hence it is only paid by persons. But maybe it’s the same every where?

    Yes, Rossi would end up in the highest bracket if he take is profit out in salay. But I don’t find that is very likely. It will probable be taken out in share dividend. Then he will get 22 % in corporate tax and 30 % tax on the share dividend. A total of 52 %.

  • Carl Wilson

    Frank
    Can we have a post the brings together in one place what Engineer48 has been saying or some sort of an evaluation of it?
    Done with utmost regard for the sensitivity of his position.

    • Engineer48

      Try:
      https://disqus.com/by/engineer48/

      All my posts are there.

      Everyone really, seriously needs to watch this video.
      https://youtu.be/6y98YwJ2GEE

      • Carl Wilson

        Much thanks.

      • Carl Wilson

        Tried link. Got told info was private.

        • Buck

          Ditto

      • Stephen Taylor

        Again, for the record, most here know that Gene Mallove’s tragic death had nothing to do with this and really should be left in peace for the sake of common decency. Eng 48, please, use your head.

      • Andy Kumar

        Engineer (?),
        It seems you started using your present moniker only a month ago. What name did you use before this? A few of the old regular posters are conspicuous by their absence.

      • Carl Wilson

        I’d run into stories about Mallove before but not paid a great deal of attention. Now from your link, it looks like this video is part of a presentation by “Sirius Disclosure”
        (http://www.siriusdisclosure.com/). I hope what you have been telling us is better grounded than the bulk of the material they are putting forth.

        • Engineer48

          Have no idea what Sirius Disclosure is. Would seem they used a video shot by someone else.

          Google “gene mallove” then click on Videos. Plenty of videos there about Dr. Eugene Maliove” to watch that have nothing to do with Sirius.

          Try this one:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avpoIAKvYmU

          • Carl Wilson

            “Have no idea what Sirius Disclosure is. ”

            Sorry, some degree of apology on my part is due.”Sirius Disclosure” did come up in following the link you gave and the association with matters in question was not useful.

            On the other hand the link you give to the US Navy work was VERY useful.

        • kdk

          Bah, the UFO (alien) presence is more thoroughly documented and witnessed than cold fusion. Check out some MUFON stats… most people who see UFOs don’t even report them, because of the ridicule. There’s plethora information on that on YouTube, and I’m talking about people lecturing like Richard Dolan or Stanton Friedman, who have detailed lots of good evidence. The French Cometa report also came to the ET hypothesis, and dealt with physical trace cases where UFOs were reported as having landed. If you’re looking for a government to tell the truth, generally speaking, you’re looking in the wrong place, the US Government in particular. The UFOs represent free energy technology probably well beyond cold fusion, and also probably quite dangerous in the hands of say, nuclear terrorists, running around the world… they’re well beyond the scope of this site, but they are in fact running around.

          • Carl Wilson

            ” If you’re looking for a government to tell the truth….”. I believe real government info on UFOs is under the very highest level of security classification: EMBARRASSING. I find the “Sirius Disclosure” ideas self-contradictory on a number of important points.

            • kdk

              If they found nothing they would declassify and un-redact all the UFO files. Instead, most UFO documents you go through, you can read at most a sentence per page, with the rest being redacted. Those are only the files that they have admitted to having.

        • akupaku

          Eugene Mallove has nothing to do with Sirius Disclosure. And that site is at least partly correct in its conclusions although their spokesman Dr. Steven Greer does have some embarrassing opinions and is full of his own ego. Anybody who believes in LENR and cold fusion but not in UFOs should do some serious reading, the evidence of alien presence on Earth is overwhelming. You can start with Richard Dolan’s excellent historical series on UFOs and government cover-up, highly recommended. If that does not open your eyes and mind then I guess nothing will.

          Ignorance is the mother of all prejudice and preconception. ;o)

  • http://www.animpossibleinvention.com/ Mats Lewan

    Folks, this discussion is great fun. I think I note a slight change in mood here, compared to the last few weeks. Now it’s getting really interesting 🙂

    • Stephen Taylor

      Indeed. Mats, thank you again for sticking with this. Your reporting has been excellent.

    • Carl Wilson

      To quote LENR G below:
      “Holy ****.”

    • Robert Dorr

      It’s very nice. I think this is the first set of comments regarding Rossi that there hasn’t been a bunch of ad hominems spewed about.

    • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

      Mats, who knows who the customer’s parent is — the British entity?

      Rossi? Yes.
      Rossi’s lawyer, the President of the front company JM Products? Yes
      Fabiani and West? There for a year. Might they have overheard enough to know?
      Darden and Vaughn? Entered legal agreements with JM Products; paying for heat.
      You?
      Any investors or plant visitors?

      Ask Henry Johnson and Fabiani if they know who the British entity is and if they are willing to characterize them for you. Are they bigger than 5 people? When were they established? Do they have other operations in the US? Etc. Maybe you can get enough info to help us understand if we deal with a real company.

  • Engineer48

    Ever seen what happens after a few Brits tell the Aliens that built all the world’s tech to “Piss Off, We Don’t Need You” and they did?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yyxaT8M15Q

  • Engineer48

    Akupaku wrote:
    “Would be interesting to see what havoc and collapse that would create with all traditional energy sources and power structures”

    With respect no it would not be interesting.
    It would be like saying let’s try an experiment where we destroy the grid and ALL go back to the stone age.

    People with money would buy totally off grid LENR power systems. reducing grid kWh income, forcing the less well off to shoulder and pay for the constant, of the kWhs flowing over the grid, upkeep cost. The less well off would ultimately not be able to pay for neither LENR generators nor the excessive grid costs. Imagine a future world where the well off had almost free LENR power and the less well off lived in candle lit caves with no electricity.

    This is not an experiment that any civilized society should ever run.

    • SG

      If COP is really 50, then there will be abundance for all. It might take awhile, but that will be the clear trajectory.

  • Engineer48
    • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

      Bushnell is a known LENR supporter. Has been for quite some time.

      • Engineer48

        WATCH the whole video:
        https://youtu.be/QxBJjWzlKl0

        There are very senior very respected researchers of the US Navy discussing real LENR reaction that they can switch on and off at will.

        • Stephen Taylor

          That video is the coolest thing I have seen in a long, long time. Many thanks to Ruby Carat! And thanks for highlighting a wonderful story about the real progress being made in the field of LENR.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Ruby Carat conducted these interviews, put the video together and has it posted on her remarkable website:

            ColdFusinNow.org

            As many of you know, she is one of the cold fusion supporters who have never given up and have continued to sacrifice their own personal resources for the benefit of all mankind.

            • Engineer48
              • Stephen Taylor

                He looks so much more vital in this video compared to the recent still photo on Mats Lewan’s blog. Yes, he is 4 or 5 years older but still only 65. A fitness enthusiast he surely will look better soon as his checkup was fine he said.

                • http://www.animpossibleinvention.com/ Mats Lewan

                  True. Yet he told me that he would like to run the ski competition ‘Vasaloppet’ in Sweden next winter (90 km).

                • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

                  Maybe we could make an event out of this, with a welcoming party at the end of his run.

          • Engineer48

            Those that rubbish LENR have never done their homework or may have a pay check that requires LENR to NEVER work.

        • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

          E48, it’s clear that you’ve done your homework and have come to the conclusion that LENR phenomena are real. Thing is most of us did this homework four or five years ago and reached the same conclusion. You’re not telling us anything new with these papers and videos (though I guess they might hold value for newcomers).

          LENR is a given on this web site. Even many skeptics accept that there is something to LENR science.

          What we struggle with here is LENR+ (industrial level excess heat), for which the published science is much weaker. Yet there are a multitude of signs such as significant business activity, public statements, semi-independent but flawed tests, measurements by MFMP and other replicators, etc. that all point toward an emerging LENR+ industry and an energy revolution.

          But yet there are no verifiable LENR+ devices available for public testing and confirmation, and the scientific community remains highly doubtful of LENR+ and still dismissive of LENR in general. The thing we struggle with most is making sense of Rossi and Leonardo Corp who have seemed on the verge of commercialization for years and are at the center of a conflicting whirlwind of information.

          You’re now our instrumented hurricane buster airplane flying into the eye of the hurricane and might be able to tell us if this storm is going to peter out or if it’s the monster storm it appears. Please do report back.

          • Carl Wilson

            “I guess they [these papers and videos] might hold value for newcomers”
            Well I guess that pegs me as a newcomer though I remember vividly when a physicist friend came rushing in with first P&F news. My interest dropped to near background level, maintained by respect for McKubre. Heard rumour of impending Lugano report & confidently predicted (to myself) — another Rossi-no-show. Oooooops. Since then, frequent visits to e-catworld. Sorry for rambling but the point is that many whose interest is high on hydrogen/nickel may neglect the best of the deuterium/palladium history.
            3 gravitational centers for LENR: academic, commercial, military. Orbits confusing.

    • SG

      Lots of qualifying language when referring to LENR, but interesting nonetheless. NASA has been on the LENR train from the very beginning, albeit furtively. Their confirmation of the original F&P experiment was literally suppressed for years.

      • Engineer48

        I know a good contact in NASA that has told me there are at least 2 US gov labs with working LENR reactors that can directly generate electricity.

        We get fed BS but there are people in the US Navy and NASA that do make releases. I can tell you that for LENR to be mentioned in that NASA paper would require what they have what they call floor 13 approval.

    • Stephen Taylor

      Yes, we all dream and we will progress mostly through honest hard work.

    • Engineer48

      Amazing NASA using the “LENR” word in public.
      What would P&F ever say about that?

      “Of this range of options, the current best ISRU solution for energetics appear to be:

       A micro-fission nuclear reactor for on-planet power. This is an assured, high capacity
      energy source that supplies power across the board.

       A lightweight back-up deployable solar array system to ensure life support in the
      event of operational issues with the micro-fission nuclear reactor.

       Utilization of the power from the micro-fission nuclear reactor to produce and store,
      from Mars resources, quantities of methane, oxygen, magnesium, CO2, for use in
      transportation both on planet and in-space [ascent, outbound, return] and as backup
      energy for reactor malfunctions

       Research on advanced thermionics and LENR to determine their efficacy for Mars
      Utilization. These “nuclear” alternatives would enable “distributed/ local nuclear
      class energy density, orders of magnitude greater than chemical with potential
      utilization for transportation writ large as well as stationary on planet application.”

      NASA mentions LENR FOUR times in the paper.
      Good thing they never tried to get it published in Nature.

  • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

    Dewey’s latest FWIW. If he truly conveys IH’s thoughts, then IH thinks it was all a scam with no real customer:
    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/3259-Mat-Lewan-Meets-Rossi-in-Sweden-Rossi-Bidding-on-Factory-For-QuarkX-Production/?postID=20350#post20350
    ————–
    “Rossi and his attorney/President of JM Products rep’d and warranted that JM Products was/is part of a UK-based company and that heat was needed for real work. We’ll see how effective they are in explaining that guarantee to the judge. Rossi had a key that allowed him to walk thru the door in the “customer” wall. He made IH and their visitors go around to the front door and would never allow a glimpse of anything outside of the front entrance, office areas and conference room. One interesting nugget – once IH advised Rossi that the 1MW container was going to be padlocked on inspection day, the IH engineer reminded Rossi that he should advise his “customer” of this state change. Rossi got out the key, walked right thru the “customer” door, came back shortly afterwards and said “not a problem” along with some additional conflicting comments (with letters to back them up) that are preserved for the courts.”

    • cashmemorz

      SO Rossi was in control of the plant logistics between supplier and user. Darden must have felt something was going on that was not “substantiated” to his personal satisfaction, ie. something going on behind Darden’s back.

      • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

        One point of interest: this “padlock” final inspection meeting Dewey refer to would have taken place circa Feb 2016 after the Rossi/IH relationship had turned very sour. That alone could explain Rossi demanding arms length from IH, worried about sabotage or IH looking for details that they could use in court to confuse matters.

        That does not explain restricting access to the customer for the first few months of the test though, if that happened.

      • Engineer48

        IH sold the customer heat and got paid $1k per day. If they sold toilet paper instead would that give them rights to wander through a customer’s highly trade secret processing plant or learn the name of their UK parent? F##K NO!

        Why does that give IH any right to know the customer’s business and manufacturing process?

        Gotta tell you if a VC dropped into my office and asked to have a look around, with a few foreign looking mates in tow, I know where I would tell them to go. Please people get real.

        • Stephen Taylor

          Not the same thing. Good business relationships make sensible accommodations for each other.

        • builditnow

          That’s $350k for the year. One possibility is that IH thought that Rossi fronted the $350k to a fake company and no excess heat was produced.

          My guess is that Rossi has cleverly withheld his secret sauce from IH so that he has leverage with IH. IH on the other hand cannot make a working reactor with the information Rossi has given them so far, so, they can’t pay the $98 million. My memory is that IH stated they cannot make a working reactor (correct me if I got that wrong). Both sides could benefit from a court case to firm up the contract or draw up a new one and have it approved by US federal court.

          If I was Rossi and had been burned as an inventor several times, I could consider cleverly withholding the secret sauce as leverage to level the playing field. Rossi with a few million VS a 2 Billion dollar fund and only a contract on Rossi’s side if he gives all his secrets away. Keeping some important secrets could act to bring balance to the relationship.

        • sam

          But if you are the one paying out 100 million
          would you not want to see the production at least
          once.Was there no trust in the partnership

      • Engineer48

        Darden is a VC.
        IH supplies heat to the customer and the customer pays for it.

        Neither gives Darden any rights to walk into a restricted production area of the customer, that he has no business being in.

    • SG

      So wait, others (besides Rossi) captured “glimpses” of the processes occurring at the customer’s location, but never anybody from IH? Doesn’t ring very true.

      • Ged

        It’s like when he was claiming no IH people were allowed in the site, and then had to backtrack to claim no “trusted” IH employees were allowed in (no one has control of that but IH; also means he had lied in his first version of the claim), while people like Darden waltzed through at times. Remember when he claimed the customer was in another warehouse and not in the same one as the 1MW plant, but then photo evidence and leasing/physical records showed that was not true?

        Spin and misdirection if not outright lies from the guy. That’s why his story gets more convoluted and completely divorced from rationality as time goes. Also makes IH into utterly incompetent fools in his ever changing version of reality.

        Originally I was strongly leaning to support IH when this all came out. But this guy’s FUD (with a supporting role by Jed) have made me very strongly lean away from IH. Nothing Rossi has said has changed my opinions, it’s been all this guy and the blatantly incoherent attempts to manipulate the narrative. Hopefully IH publishes a real defense soon so this can stop.

      • Engineer48

        Rossi found the customer and as he claims, has sold them 3 more 1MWt plants. So Rossi and they did have a longer term interest to do this dance together.

        Why would the customer want anybody to know they have just dropped their cost of production against their competition?

        Is there anybody here that doesn’t understands industrial trade secrets and competition?

        • SG

          I’m not disagreeing with you; in fact, I agree with you, and yes, I do happen to understand industrial trade secrets very well.

          My point was that Mats has mentioned that others have caught glimpses of the customer’s production, and even commented as to the nature of the products being produced. But IH was never allowed? What Mr. Weaver has allegedly asserted seems fishy to me.

          • Engineer48

            IH sat in the office of Rossi’s lawyer and talked to the customer, who then signed a heat purchase agreement with IH.

            IH then had an obligation to deliver the heat and the customer had an obligation to pay for the heat.

            Neither party had any more rights to engage in knowing more about each others business.

            People this is business and the customer has every right to control who does and does not have access to their production area.

        • Stephen Taylor

          Well, if there are all these working cold fusion reactors being sold and utilised surely we will get to see one before long. How long has it been now?

          • Engineer48

            Stephen Taylor wrote:
            “Well, if there are all these working cold fusion reactors being sold and utilised surely we will get to see one before long. How long has it been now?”

            Do you understand that after years of effort Rossi finally convinced the USTPO to give him patent protection?

            Why would he go public with a product that had NO IP protection?

            If you want to blame someone for delaying LENR, look to the US gov.

            Even now Nature will not publish any LENR papers, despite many other journals starting to thaw and doing LENR paper publishing and there is no official US gov money available for LENR research, least the “Hot Fusion In 20 Years” guys get really upset.

            The Hot Fusion guys at MIT had a party (really did happen) when MIT announced their P&F replication had failed. But as we know know it did not really fail and someone at MIT fudged the data to make it look like it failed.

            • Stephen Taylor

              For the record I agree enthusiastically with your post here.

            • Warthog

              “If you want to blame someone for delaying LENR, look to the US gov.”

              Well, yes and no. You have to keep in mind the incestuous relationship between the “high-energy physics” types, and management of advanced R&D by the FedGov that came about as a result of the development of the A-bomb during WWII.

              The “second-rate” physicists migrated into research management, first at places like LLNL, Hanford, Los Alamos, and others, and then moved up the promotion chain into overall R&D in the higher levels of government research oversight. And they oversaw the hiring of students from the research groups of their old physics profs.

              That “ownership” of government R&D by physicists is now fading with the onset of the “eco” movement, but there is still a significant residue.

              • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

                saying US governement is a bit too much (moreover US gov is not coherent , not a person).

                Who failed miserably is first academic system, corrupted by high energy physics money (hot fusion, particle physics, nuclear energy, bombs) and sanctified by Manhattan project.
                As JP Biberian explained (RNBE2016) in science there is a hierarchy.
                at the top is high energy physics, then theoretical physics, then material physics, then chemistry, then electrochemistry biochemistry, biology, zoology…

                except the particle physicist at the top, maybe because of manhattan project and big science projects (big accelerators, hot fusion, bombs), the hierarchy is simply from the most theoretical to the most experimental and phenomenological. That is the problem, and this prevent science to discover new things without a theory, while helping to exploit known theory.

                then the high impact journal, who follows the academic lords, failed miserably, but like parrots.
                Experts also failed miserably, following the groupthink.

                Similarly scientific journalism, and journalism failed miserably.
                then politicians influenced by academic, by journalists, by experts, failed miserably but less than expected.

                then all the scientific communities in Western world, the journalist and politicians mostly failed miserably.

                Finally the few who did not fail miserably, at least not fully are :
                – the militaries in US who still work on it
                – industrialist who tried but found it was not ready for them to work on, and who were afraid of academic bad mouth
                – free of “academics” scientists (retired, hidden in national labs, private labs, VC funded lab, hobbyists)
                – Asian science and industry, provided they are discrete

                • Warthog

                  Heh. As a chemist (and an analytical chemist at that), I am well aware of the snobbery of physicists.

                  And you are correct that there “is” such a hierarchy in academia. But without the cross-connection into the funding bureaucracy of the FedGov, they would have not been able to stifle LENR research nearly as thoroughly as has happened. It takes money to do sophisticated research.

    • Ged

      Yet the “customer” was paying IH for the heat; that is, as Engineer48 aptly pointed out, the “customer” is IH’s not Rossi’s customer. So, IH was making money off these folks and would at least know the payment details that had to be signed and set up.

      AKA, there goes Dewey again, damaging IH’s case with all the spin and misdirection. He has set them up for criminal prosecution at this rate.

    • Engineer48

      Why do you listen to Weaver?
      His only intent appears to be saving IH from paying Rossi $89m by spreading spin?
      Have you ever seen him?
      Maybe just a dog on a keyboard?

      • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

        I’m an information omnivore.

        Posted not as act of support, but to share relevant information with others.

  • Engineer48

    Rossi offered to sell my clients 10 x 1MW reactors to do a trial. They are engineers and no money would go Rossi way until the reactors passed tests set by very experienced thermal power plant steam generation engineers.

    So where is there advantage to Rossi to offer to sell non operational steam generators to engineers who live steam 24/7?

    What IH and Weaver says negative about Rossi and his 1MW ECat, to these guys are just corporate game playing BS.
    .

    • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

      And why was the offer not accepted? (I assume)

      • Engineer48

        Not correct. Still talking. Sent an email to Rossi early today Aussie time.

        My potential clients may end up needing 2,500 x 1MW QuarkX 600C plants to drive 6 subcritical steam turbines with approx 750MWe total generation.

        So deals of this side take time to put in place.

        Did ask for a 1MW plant site visit for my potential clients. Is doable after a few signed documents.

        • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

          Holy ****. That makes you and your peeps real live potential customers posting on E-Cat World.

          • Engineer48

            Frank is aware of my professional relationship with Rossi.

            • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

              Well we would definitely like to hear the details of your ongoing interactions with Rossi, positive or negative.

              • Engineer48

                I do totally respect the confidentially of Leonardo and my potential clients. Like the IH heat customer Rossi found for IH (yes the customer is a IH heat customer that pays IH for the heat produced by the IH owned and installed 1MW plant), client requests for confidentiality are respected.

                What I share is not confidential info.

                • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

                  I appreciate that you felt the need to state that but I wasn’t asking for anything confidential. Just share with us what you can and we’ll be grateful.

                  If the transaction proceeds you’ll be in a unique position to shed light on what’s real and what’s not.

                • Engineer48

                  Look I do not know everything that is going on but I do know that 95% of the negative stuff said about Rossi and the 1MWt plant has no basis in fact. It is just conjecture / spin.

                  But then factor in that I / my company may make a very nice profit on the initial sale and support of 10 x 1 MWt 105C min steam ECat reactors.

                  BTW Rossi gave me the 105C steam temp as the min that my client should expect. Input water pressure and volume is defined by the 1MWt plant specs.

                  Others can do the calcs and tell you what that means.

                • Ged

                  I think LENR G is really interesting in knowing what your personal experience has been so far. That would be really cool to hear on, in so much as confidentiality allows, unless you have already told us all you can. Thank you for the insights you supply.

                • Engineer48

                  My experience has been shared on this forum.

        • pg

          Australia would make plenty of sense. BHP or Rio etc. would make a killing being the firsts in their markets using the technology.
          Please keep us posted.

        • pg

          By the way I come to Melbourne twice a year, I would gladly grab a cup of coffee in August.

    • LuFong

      There is a lot of posturing going on by both sides. Kicking tires and making offers could be just part of this. I predict the civil suit will be settled out of court and this is part of this.

      On the other hand, this is good news but we’ve heard this kind of thing before many years ago and we still haven’t identified a single commercial customer or seen a 1MW plant in commercial operation. The one “customer” (IH bought the plant and sold heat) we do know about, IH, says the 1MW plant does not work. Whether that is true or not is TBD. Good luck though, don’t sign any NDAs, and keep us posted.

      • Stephen Taylor

        Yes, lots of hot air, some smoke now and then, no fire. We wait.

    • pg

      Is the deal still ongoing?

      • Engineer48

        Yes

        • pg

          Ok, could you elaborate any further?

          • Engineer48

            Read below a bit.

        • Stephen Taylor

          I also hope you can substantiate this rather large proposed offer to commercialise Rossi’s supposed technology.

          • Engineer48

            750MWe generation at 33% conversion efficiency. Need 2,250MWt of 550C subcritical steam. What is so big? This is NOTHING. Just one small thermal power plant.

            Rossi told me 600C steam was not yet available.
            I countered with they are interested in 10 MWt low temp steam (~105C) plant as a learner installation until 600C steam is available.
            Rossi said OK can do.
            6 months delivery.
            Purchase price in escrow until plant passed mutually acceptable performance specs.
            Can arrange visit to working 1MW plant after acceptable MOU executed.

            Where is the scam or con? Only in what anti Rossi spin merchants wish to make you believe for their clients benefit.

            • Stephen Taylor

              If Rossi has mastered the art of LENR or even begun to make a big step toward doing so, then he should FINALLY get one of the experts on LENR calorimetry and Peter H. from MIT together and show them something. My patience with hot air and imaginary smoke is expired.

              • Engineer48

                Why would Rossi open up, show and tell for those that can’t do what he does?

                As Rossi has said many times, he is only interested in the final performance tests of his clients.

                • Stephen Taylor

                  Well, at the moment, I just think he should give a care for his credibility.

              • Chapman

                Why in the name of GOD should Rossi care a rat’s ass about the opinions of your so-called “experts on LENR calorimetry”?

                And more to the point, WHO is the expert on LENR, the guy who can build them, or some pinhead who thinks he is an expert with a thermometer?

                Can your experts build a LENR reactor? If not, they are no kind of expert ON LENR. Period. They are out of their depth. If they understood LENR enough to declare themselves Expert LENR Evaluators, they would damn well be the ones filing patents and buying factory space.

                • Stephen Taylor

                  I feel and share your pain. Pain is nothing new in this endeavor. Those who can do. Some fake it and others just talk. Mea culpa on all counts at one time or another. Mostly I hope Dr. Rossi is well.

                  I do hope you are up to speed on the real science that is happening all over the globe much of which you may well take issue with. Peace, human.

  • LuFong

    We can make statements but obviously they are just educated guesses. We may never get the data you mention. But I think we can bound the problem given what we know and I think my statements reflect that.

    Ditto for Weaver. I think he has provided a lot of additional information about what has happened, albeit it not always accurate. At the very least his statements are more representative of IH’s position and are valuable and should not be ignored.

    For example he claimed that the 1MW plant was padlocked. Well how it came to be padlocked is up in the air but nobody knew that it was padlocked before he mentioned it. There were many here who thought the plant was still operational.

    I have to say I have some doubts about your objectivity. I don’t mean to dissuade you from posting but to be honest I see you as the anti-Weaver. You might take that as a complement!

    • Omega Z

      ->”many here who thought the plant was still operational.”

      That’s because they didn’t keep up. But as of late, keeping up has been anything but easy.

      • LuFong

        I know it’s very difficult to even remember what we read over the weeks, months, and even years. My goal is to get to the truth of the matter especially with regard to whether the E-Cat works as Rossi claims. I ask a lot of questions and sometimes put out statements that I’m not sure of to further this end. I’m hoping that this civil suit, MFMPs efforts, Rossi, and possibly me356’s efforts will get us there.

        • Engineer48

          Rossi offered to sell my clients 10 x 1MW reactors to do a trial. They are engineers and no money would go Rossi way until the reactors passed tests set by power plant steam generation engineers.

          So where is there advantage to Rossi to offer to sell non operational steam generators to engineers who live steam 24/7?

          What IH and Weaver says negative about Rossi and his 1MW ECat, to these guys are just corporate game playing BS.
          .

          • LuFong

            I responded to this above. Did he offer the plants or the heat? Would he accept the heat? How about some combination of buying the heat with an option to buy the plant after a year?

            The advantage is that Rossi can claim $15M in future revenue. It only costs him about $100K to make one of these things (Low Temperature, somewhere in all the civil suit paperwork). It can be used to get short term bridge loans for his factory or other endeavors. I also believe that either Rossi has the goods or he has some mental issues (I’m not the only one) and this is part of this. All conjecture–I don’t take this seriously.

            • Engineer48

              He offered to sell the reactors.

    • Engineer48

      I have seen Weaver make false statement and avoid answering other questions of logic. So I take him as I find him. An unreliable provided of dubious information that at best suits his agenda.

      As an engineer, I’m anti everything until proven reliable.

      I have had many conversations with Rossi about procuring 1MW reactor modules for potential clients. He has never lied to me nor has he ever asked for non escrowed money up front and the money release was always based on pre agreed test conditions being met.

      Please show me where this is a scam or fraud?

      Please understand my potential clients were thermal power plant engineers that lived steam boilers and steam powered subcritical turbines 24/7. No way can anyone fool them.

      • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

        I think I would like it very much if you wrote a full length article about your interactions with Rossi, with as much detail as you can remember, and submit it to E-Cat World.
        http://www.e-catworld.com/submit-a-post-to-e-cat-world-2/

        It seems you have valuable first hand knowledge and a willingness to share it.

        Were you involved with the NASA/Rossi flirtation that almost resulted in an agreement?

        • Engineer48

          No direct NASA involvement

          I’m Aussie. Frank and Mats know of my involvement.

          Do have reliable NASA contracts that have told me there are at least 2 NASA teams with working LENR reactors and they have also achieved direct electrical generation.

          Also know my thermal power plant potential clients told me the whole power generation industry knows of LENR and there are massive undercurrents in flow as everybody in that industry knows the future is LENR.

          Both AirBus and NASA are working on LENR powered aircraft and spacecraft but no one talks outside their groups.

          There have been 1,000s of LENR papers published. It really surprised me how little people have researched what they so easily trash or maybe they are paid to trash it.

          Check out this US Navy LENR presentation out and then watch ALL of this interview.

          https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Attachment/386-IEEE-brief-DeChiaro-9-2015-pdf/

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxBJjWzlKl0

          LENR is VERY REAL as is Rossi’s ECat reactor. What makes Rossi so special is he is the 1st to achieve a commercially ready heat generator. He will not be the last.

      • LuFong

        You attract the little fish to get the bigger fish. Just sayin’. Rossi did this with the home E-Cats, had millions of people sign up for one and didn’t take a dime (I have two on order). Why? He probably knew that his technology wasn’t ready (version 1.0, now version 3.0beta). He also knew that he could not sell them, or claim to sell them, without some level of safety certification. In the meantime he was selling distributor licenses. Seems very much like what he’s doing now.

        • Engineer48

          I ordered 3 x 10kW units 2 days after the offer opened.

          Rossi has always been very open about the domestic certification issues.

          Do you have any experience getting a domestic certification? Imaging telling your home insurance company you just installed a 10kW low energy NUCLEAR REACTOR in your home? What would they do? Maybe quickly hang up the phone and CANCEL your insurance policy?

          There is NO reference point to achieve domestic certification for a low energy NUCLEAR REACTOR.

          So please give the man time to do the impossible.

          • LuFong

            He stated that he was working with UL on the certification and made it sound like it was going to happen (more or less). At one time this was a big deal and he had hired someone to negotiate this etc, etc, etc.

            The problem is you do not need UL certification to install in your house (local authority dependent of course). True there is an insurance risk but that is not an issue for many people. Many products are instead, tested, in homes or on the road before safety certification is issued. Google drove driverless cars on CA roads. Dean Kamen installed trial versions of his fuel cell in peoples homes and I’m sure these were not UL approved and probably no permits even pulled.

            I would imagine Rossi would install a number of these in homes for test purposes anyway before committing to mass production. Many shops and barns would easily accommodate this arrangement.

            I got banned on Rossi’s blog when I tried to discuss this with him.

            There were also number of logistical issues at that time which I pointed out but Rossi seemed to have ignored or wasn’t aware of till later. One was that it required something like 30Amp service so installation was not trivial (requiring an electrician for most people). The other problem was that it used electrical energy which for many people would not provide much if any economic benefit since they heated with lower cost cost fuels like NG (not everywhere).

            I share your safety concerns. But the reliance on the word “nuclear” is not fair. Currently when someone says nuclear they think fission or fusion. Clearly this is not what is happening in the classic sense. LENR, while it uses the word nuclear, is something different and is why others use other terms.

            And speaking of safety, Rossi and others make a big deal out of the SGS safety certificate Rossi achieved. But if you look at this it is nothing more than a design checklist of features some device might have. For example, does it have a on/off switch? Does it have rounded corners. They did have to go and look at one but that’s about it. No questioning about the “nuclear” nature of the device. It is a joke.

            So while I certainly hope Rossi comes through so far he hasn’t.

          • cashmemorz

            OK. So I’ll use the version of LENR that has the long name of Low Energy Nano Reactor. Just hope that the insurance broker I’m talking to is not aware where that name started from (cold fusion) and the in between names with nuke in it.

  • Omega Z

    Darden offered Rossi a substantial sum to forget the 1MW test and walk away,
    with IH keeping their rights to the IP of course.

    Rossi counter offers to return the $11.5 million and rescind Darden’s IP rights.
    Thus Darden world be out nothing?

    How many %shares did Darden have to relinquish to Woodford.
    Woodford would be due a refund.
    —————————————————————
    Thoughts-

    I think Darden couldn’t come up with the full $89 million and short of that would still be in breach. And that Darden’s offer in mid test was an attempt to appease Rossi and keep the IP rights.

    I know many here think $89 million is peanuts, but this is a very controversial and unproven as yet technology. You don’t borrow money from a bank for this.

    Those who do invest should you convince them it may be real want a substantial percentage of shares in return for the risk. They also only invest a fraction of their wealth like Woodford. What was it, less then 1% of the trust fund.

    Would Darden and his initial core investors before Woodford and others came in end up with a tiny percent. Likely they wouldn’t want to settle for that.
    —————————————————————
    I think the E-cat works.

    I think this is very much about the money and the problem of trying to obtain it. The money spigots are only dripping. They are not yet open.

  • Engineer48

    I really need to make another statement here as with respect unless you have personally dealt with Rossi, as I have, you have no basis for that you state and this comment is just your opinion, based on nothing.

  • Engineer48

    So what happens next if Rossi wins Ih can’t pay and declares bankruptcy?

    Ok IH is out of business, yea says Rossi, but to be sure Cherokee will ensure IH has no capital to pay Rossi.

    As I see it, the Rossi complaint has identified Cherokee as the prime licensee and this should give Rossi the ability to go Cherokee for the total court awarded payment.

    Mght not be good to be a Cherokee investor.

  • Engineer48

    Point is IH have pre agreed to the ERV report as the sole decided of the payment amount. So IH needs to PROVE the ERV report is false or they lose and must pay Rossi $89m plus costs plus jury awarded extras.

    Who is the customer is not an issue to the contract payment dispute.

    Negative outcome is IH goes bankrupt (which seem too common with Cherokee shell companies) and Rossi needs to attack Cherokee.

  • Engineer48

    There are enough thermal power plant builders all over the world that can easily design in LENR boilers to existing their product offerings.

    What Rossi needs to do is to get their undivided attention and open checkbooks. Opening a factory, providing a commercially acceptable LENR reactor is all that is required.

    That will happen.

  • Josh G

    Ssshhhhhh! Don’t give them any ideas…

  • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Agaricus

    Also on March 9, Mr. Wisler wrote to Tom Darden, Cherokee’s chief executive, to discuss a donation to a local arts group. He added, “On another front, how are we doing with the contribution for Gov. McGreevey?” He concluded, “It is getting awkward.“”

    • SG

      Another revealing section:

      “There was more, especially in a trail of e-mail messages obtained by the plaintiffs — some of them retrieved by court order after they were
      deleted — that showed how the redeveloper, Cherokee Investment Partners, won the Pennsauken waterfront.”

      Deleted emails? Court order to retrieve them?

      • cashmemorz

        Very odd on this point. I opened Firefox browser, then E-Cat world dot com then the topic of

        “The Possible Political Impact Should LENR Emerge (Doug Marker)”

        and everthing worked fine.

        But when I clicked on this topic

        “Mat Lewan Meets Rossi in Sweden, Rossi Bidding on Factory For QuarkX Production”

        and as I reached the comment

        “Agaricus Jerry Soloman•an hour ago
        “Also on March 9, Mr. Wisler wrote to Tom Darden, Cherokee’s chief
        executive, to discuss a donation to a local arts group. He added, “On
        another front, how are we doing with the contribution for Gov.
        McGreevey?” He concluded, “It is getting awkward.”

        Firefox crashed.

        I restarted firefox browser went to the same site topic and comment and firefox crashed again this crash occurred four times in a row. So I rebooted and the crash occured at the same place. Then reset Firefox. This worked. No more crashes at this topic point. What is odd is that the crash occurred at the point where the comment containing such curiously suspicious facts. Is it a hack of some sort regarding that fact? I am using Ubuntu system. It is supposed to be more resistant or even immune to malware if you avoid dangerous sites. So was E-Cat world hacked?

        • US_Citizen71

          No issues on Chrome. Bad nightly build on FireFox?

          • cashmemorz

            NO I’m just paranoid when coincidenses such as this happen…..

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    That’s great – we never learn, do we.

  • Private Citizen

    Tax Rates Sweden:
    Corporate Tax Rate 22.00%
    Personal Income Tax Rate 57.00%
    Sales Tax Rate 25.00%
    Social Security Rate 38.42%
    Social Security Rate For Companies 31.42%
    Social Security Rate For Employees 7.00%

    Value-Added Tax
    Value added tax (VAT) 25%

    Profit Tax

    Profit tax (% of profit)
    13.%

    Labor tax and contributions (% of profit) 35.4%

    Other taxes (% of profit) 0.6Total tax rate (% of profit) 49.1%

    Cost of Electricity
    Cost (% of income per capita ) 33.5 % – exclusive of value added tax

    Minimum Wage:
    There is no minimum wage regulation by Swedish law

    Dealing with Unions:

    The level of union membership in Sweden is high at 71%

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Agaricus

      I thought we were taxed dry in the UK – but Swedish taxation makes street mugging look benign.

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        Sweden is great, at least most of the money is used on citizens or public welfare – in Italy, corruption runs deep…
        http://www.heritage.org/index/visualize?cnts=italy|sweden&src=ranking

        • Fibber McGourlick

          Funny, all that government taxation and largess and yet Sweden is one of the best places in the world to live with one of the lowest crime rates and gun deaths.

          • Timar

            Adequate taxation in order to distribute wealth and enable social welfare, strict weapons and liberal penal laws go all hand in hand to enable such a society. It’s pretty much the opposite of the “Wild West” type of society the American right pursues.

            • cashmemorz

              Didn’t you know that USA is “west” of those European countries, and that the original people were “wild”? Americans are only living where the geography dictates and the original culture is continuing to this day. Natural logical progression.

              • Timar

                I see what you mean. I have to say, however, while I have great respect for American history, culture and its peculiar values I am still glad to live in an oppressive, authoritarian European country where I happily pay slighter higher tax rates and am not allowed to bear arms (not that I or most other European citizens would ever have felt a desire to do so) but in exchange don’t have to worry nearly as much about violence on the street or that I end up under the bridge when I lose my job, whether I would be able to affort treatment if I or a loved one becomes seriously ill, or whether I can affort university education for my children.

          • Engineer48

            Hey mate, those are fightin words,
            well maybe cold beer drinking world! 🙂

            Australia is very good.

            Don’t know a single person or family in Aussie that has a gun or feels they need one.

            • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Agaricus

              Well that’s really burst my bubble – I thought all Aussie men were clones of ‘Crocodile’ Dundee.

              • Engineer48

                BIG knives yes. Guns no. 😉

                Seriously I do not know anybody that has a gun or feels they need one to ensure their safety.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            Civilization. Sometimes exploited; but where it is honestly understood and appreciated, it makes everyone count; and better off.

    • DNI

      Some of your figures are incorrect:
      The personal Income Tax Rate is 32 % for most people in Sweden. 57 % is paid by less than 5 %.
      The total social security rate is 31,42 %. 38,4% is not correct.

      And you have the same taxes multiple times which is misleading:
      The sales Tax rate is the same as VAT.
      The profit taxes are the same as the taxes under Tax Rates Sweden.They are just calculated in a different way.

  • http://www.drboblog.com Doctor Bob

    I think that the entirety of the surplus of oil that has been reported could be difficult to account for if the experts really started looking.

  • Timar

    Clever.

    I would do the exact same if I were a con artist who successfully scammed 11.5 million $ out of a gullible investor – spend half of that money on a factory building and the other half on a costly lawsuit that would inevitably uncover my fraud.

    I guess I wouldn’t make a good con artist. 🙁

    • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

      Still need that sarcasm font.

  • Andrew

    Well the first part is a nobrainer. Im sure that any steam will be over 100C unless in a vacuum?

  • Stephen

    I’m quite curious about the timing in point 3.

    Was this before or after Rossi was awarded his patent?

    Was this before or after IH submitted their patent?

    Also how it timed with regard demonstrations to possible customers and investors.

    Interestingly we had very positive comments form Fabiani not long after this I think?

  • Stephen

    Are there any equipments that use 1MW hot water or steam that have similar dimension to point 5 above? 3m x 3m x 20m?

    It seems to me that there maybe possibilities, such as generators, ovens low temp chemical kilns, hydrolic devices and machines, high pressure compression or water or gas jet devices, or perhaps some combinations of these things. But I’m far from knowledgable about such devices power requirements.

    • US_Citizen71

      Commercial laundry washers and dryers would fit. Depending on heat recovery systems 600-1800lbs of laundry require the equivalent of 1MW worth of heat to process (hot water and drying). The large washers hold approximately 900lbs per load and there are such a thing as steam heat powered dryers.

      • Stephen

        Yup its a good idea, but we would likely know about the laundry vans. on the other hand I think similar processes and equipment might be used to wash dry, compress, cut and pack other products might be possible for example.

        • US_Citizen71

          I’m not sure we would know about deliveries and pick-ups. No one checked the place out until after the test and drop-offs would likely be late day. I would assume pick-ups would occur at the same time, fewer trips.

          • Stephen

            fair point

    • wpj

      Is everyone forgetting Mats’ contact who saw the production through and open door and was told that it was sponge metal catalysts that they were making?

      • Stephen

        Maybe i am sorry if I did. Would that fit in equipment that size? For me I don’t see why not it seems typical size of industrial equipment.

        • wpj

          The height seems pretty low for a chemical reactor of the sort that they ought to be using, though they did say it was a scaled down version of the plant operation so that it required 1MW. The rest is fine; I have seen small industrial units with multiple reactors in there making extremely hazardous materials.

      • Zeddicus23

        Assuming there was an industrial process going on, I would guess that it would have to be endothermic. One highly endothermic process is the manufacture of sponge iron from coal, although I doubt that this was the process. There must be other highly endothermic processes. If the process were exothermic, then I would guess that much less heat would be needed, since the process itself would generate extra heat, so it makes sense that it’s either “neutral” or highly endothermic.

  • Ged

    Huh? A lot of those are easy answers. The customer is JM Chemicals so that is why the name is there, but that is a front for whomever the real people are (common enough business practice) who wish to stay anonomous do to how bad the rep backlash could be still.

    People who haved worked on similar energy systems point out heat is no issue for that space. I calculated it myself, it’s really no big deal as long as there is a fan around for air circulation. Remember, your car vents well over a hundred kW of energy out a little pipe and nearly another hundred kW with a little fan and condensing without affecting you ( https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/32832).

  • Omega Z

    1MW is nothing. You must live a sheltered life.

    There’s a manufacturer near me that produces 30MW/h or more in a 15,000 square feet facility and were talking temperatures of 800`C or higher. 24/7 365…

    Ther is ZERO roof vents and 2 bay doors similar to the Rossi customer location. There’s a dozen employees per shift that work in this facility year round. No one has been cooked to death after over 4 decades.

  • Manuel Cruz

    The factory in Florida is obviously IH’s, with which they manufactured the plant used in the Lugano test.
    Does not have to be a robotic factory, and with the constant design changes during the year long test, it would have been a total waste of money.