Key Questions Surrounding 1MW E-Cat Plant Test

Most people following the E-Cat story are by now aware of the different positions of Andrea Rossi and Industrial Heat regarding the 1 MW plant test. Although we have not yet seen the full ERV report (the report written by Fabio Penon who was hired by Leonardo Corp and Industrial Heat to do an independent evaluation of the 1-year test), I think we have a fairly good idea of what is in it.

From the accounts we have had from Andrea Rossi, and from people who say they have been in contact with Industrial Heat, it seems that the ERV report states that on average, over the course of the test, the 1MW plant operated above a COP level of 50 (i.e. it produced 50 times more energy that was input into it). From what I have read, it does not seem that Industrial Heat is disputing that is the conclusion of the report, even though they are telling people that the ERV report is mistaken. Andrea Rossi, on the other hand, is saying that the ERV report is accurate.

To my mind, to get to the truth of the matter regarding this report, there are two key pieces of information that we need to know.

1. The customer, who was apparently using the steam produced by the plant, would have to know how much energy was being produced, based on what they were able to produce. According to people Mats Lewan has spoken to, the customer was producing some kind of metal sponges. The customer would know that x much steam would be required to make x number of sponges. So production data is going to be very important.

2. The customer would also know how much they were paying for electricity that was being used to produce the steam. They would know if they were making significant energy savings by using the E-Cat plant, or if they were not.

Since this dispute looks like it’s going to be adjudicated in court, those two pieces of information would seem to me to be critical evidence, and I asked Andrea Rossi about that on the Journal of Nuclear Physics today. Here are my questions and his responses:

Frank Acland
May 15, 2016 at 7:20 PM
Dear Andrea,

Regarding the 1-year 1MW E-Cat test:

1. Is production data from the E-Cat customer recorded ? 1. yes
1-bis. if yes, is it available to you? 1-bis. no
2. If so, does the production data harmonize with the ERV report that apparently states that circa 1MW of steam was produced by the plant for the duration the test? 2. they every month delivered a report restricted to the amount of steam they received and it has always been coherent with our production data
3. Are the electricity bills paid by the customer retained, and are they available to you? 3. yes, we have copy of all of them
4. If so, do these electricity bills harmonize with the data from the ERV report that (according to court documents) the plant operated at a COP of over 50 for the duration of the test? 4. yes

Many thanks,
Frank Acland

So Rossi is saying here that he does not have access to the production data of the customer (this data may be requested in the court case, however), but he did get monthly reports on the amount steam the customer received — which apparently was in agreement with the amount of steam that Rossi’s team delivered.

Regarding the electricity bills, Rossi says he has them all, and says when compared with the amount of steam produced by the plant, they confirm that the plant produced over 50 times more energy than was input.

We have heard that Industrial Heat is disputing Rossi’s claims, and they have told some people that the plant did not produce any excess heat at all. For this position to be accurate, Rossi would have to be lying about the COP of 50 or totally mistaken in his measurements, Fabio Penon would have to either be lying about the COP 50, or be totally incompetent in his measurements, and the customer would have to either lying or completely mistaken about the amount of steam they measured was being delivered to their production equipment.

However, from what Rossi is saying, reports and documents from the customer confirm what is in the ERV report. If all this data is produced in court it could make a strong case in favor of the E-Cat really being a revolutionary new energy technology.

  • fritz194

    Edmund Storms, “The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions”, Chapter 2 – gives a broad overview on what happened ´89. John R. Huizenga on behalf of the DoE played an important role on debunking P&F CF. It´s interesting that he supervised teams at the Manhattan project. Maybe Peter Hagelstein would be the proper person to ask – otherwise you can listen to his introduction on CF 101 lectures on MIT….

  • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

    It is among the explanation possible for absence of IP transfer, among others.

    There is some incoherence with that theory, but there is many incoherence everywhere

  • fritz194

    What I recall from a book (storms?) , the DoE on behalf of the president contracted labs with reputation to verify the claims within a certain timeframe….I will look for the sources.

  • fritz194

    It´s highly obvious that this topic is on the list if it comes to a risk assessment of a new disruptive technology – and opening Pandoras Box as late as possible is a serious way to address such issue. In this light I would understand the shirt-sleeved replication attempts in 89 from highly acknowledged labs. Maybe I am wrong – but it would complement the story in many ways. Time will tell. It´s not about a conspiracy theory – but there are players and there is an agenda. The pure flat-world altruism of researchers often neglects such considerations.

  • fritz194

    … Yes, I think its about to slow down the process. Paying that money is financial evidence that Rossi has something worth that money. Using a court action is probably a way to avoid that they get sue´ ed by their funders… Otherwise I think it was not wise to claim a COP higher than 50. Claiming a COP of 4-6 keeps you below the radar. Having a COP of 50plus with this powerdensity from the ragone-plot is a completely different story. Thats a potential bomb. The E-Bomb. And that´s the originally reason for bannig CF in ´89 – and try to keep it as vague, secret and obscure as long as possible. rgds.

  • bfast

    bachole, I have a slightly different theory. I think that IH wants the intellectual property, and that they are trying to force Rossi’s hand. I think that they have their own LENR, and plan to pursue it without Rossi if they can’t get him to budge.

    I think Rossi is doing the smartest thing — getting technology out in Europe. When Rossi is obviously selling technology that works, IH will not have a breath of a case.

    I do hope that when IH realizes that they have lost, they will try to pay the 89 million, and make nice with Rossi. I think Rossi should inform them that he will spend significant money defending his IP, and should send them packing.

    Unless IH has real knowledge of shenanigans on the part of Rossi et. el., something I highly doubt, well, lets just say they are no friend of mine.

    • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

      I don’t buy this theory as IH would be happy to have many technologies, to mix them, to choose between them… and why not to keep just in case.
      if you have abillion to win , either with rossi, or with another, you can pay 100Mn to be quiet with an inventor that plays the safety parachute.
      Just putting your inventor in bad mood is incredibly risky for IH.

      I only see two possibilities :
      – IH is irrational, beyond stupidity
      – LC did not transfer the know how to IH, who have nothing valuable in hand, thus nothing to lose from LC.

      • Omega Z

        Another possibilty.

        Darden couldn’t meet the $89 million in total. Like DGT…

        Woodford invested only a fraction of a percent of the Woodford investment fund in Industrial heat.. $50 million? How many Shares did Darden have to surrender to Woodford for that.

        This is a very controversial and unproven as yet technology. You don’t borrow money from a bank for this.

        Hey Mister Banker, I need to borrow $89 million to invest in LENR.
        Banker->he he he he he. Funny. Now what do you really want.

        Investors(VC or otherwise) will only risk a small fraction of there wealth for something of this risk. And they will want a substantial percentage of shares in return.

        Possibly Darden and his initial core investors fear ending up like Robert Godes- Retaining only 5% of his IP. In Dardens case, it would be split among the core investors. Before Woodford came along.

        Perhaps If Rossi did offer to give back the $11.5 million for surrender of IH’s IP rights, It wasn’t an option because Darden would then be behind the eight ball with Woodford and having to pay them back. Something to seriously consider…

        • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

          First I think they had the 89Mn$, or even could have negociated a schedule of paiement with rossi, with a first “good faith” payment…

          second you are right that if you have no credible report, nor any lab report, nor anything concrete in hand, your banker will not be very happy.

          This is the problem.

          • Omega Z

            After the DGT fiasco, I don’t think a “good faith” payment. would appease Rossi. And according to Mats conversation with Rossi, Darden did offer a substantial payment to forget the 1MW test and walk away. IH keeping the IP rights of course.

            A Banker would want to see a factory and sales numbers with projected income from said sales. Then an expansion loan may be possible. With a controversial technology like this, nothing else would suffice for a banker. Actually, this would be the case with any product. You need existing assets or money to borrow money.

            We have a saying in the U.S.. You need to prove to the Banker you don’t need money in order to borrow money. If you actually need money, you’re probably a bad risk. I’m only slightly joking.

  • Omega Z

    I believe you have no idea what real heat is. 1MW in this facility is nothing.
    There’s a manufacture in my small city where the employees would relish 1MW of heat compared to what they work in everyday.

  • Omega Z

    Having a judge say “This thing works” would have no bearing on this. A judge would not be qualified to make such a statement.

  • Eyedoc

    That’s what I initially hoped (and stated here)……..but things have gone way past that possibility unfortunately

  • SG

    Most buildings have “many” exhaust vents, even if they aren’t configured for a 1MW test. I think you might be reading too much into the term “many.”

  • TVulgaris

    That traditional design relies on a massive cool thermal reservoir, the ground the building sits upon. The ambient air in much of Florida is uncomfortably warm or hot for most of the year to such a degree that AC is considered a medical necessity in most buildings for most people, and certainly in any commercial/industrial one where a lot of heat is generated and used.
    The 8′ of height inside the container, sitting above the pad at least a few inches, leaves only a little over 12′ of rise for a chimney effect through the roof to the outside- but assuming ONLY a 10deg del-T still puts the container temperature at a VERY uncomfortable temperature to work in for most of the year, and won’t promote much ventilation with a single ventilation outlet. IF there was some headroom, more than just a foot or two, and a good base for thermal sinking, you could use this passive engineering method, and the working environment might only be uncomfortable rather than dangerous. The fan required to move enough air for proper ventilation is only a few horsepower, perhaps even a fractional.

  • Observer

    Does IH have the $ 89 million to pay Rossi, even if they wanted to? From what I gather, they have raised ~ $60 million from investors for IH and ~ $200 million from the Chinese for R and D in China. The first priority of any money raised would be to pay back Darden’s 11 million, already payed to Rossi. Cherokee would be taking their usual “fees”. Significant effort has been made to expand their IP portfolio by buying alternative LENR IP. They dragged their feet in getting the one year test started, and I do not think they budgeted for its success. The current law suit also puts a damper on their ability to raise more money.

    • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

      I would speculate yes. But even if no, they have the connections and business standing that they could easily get it and it would be very little risk to them knowing the potential of what they had in hand.

      Do you put the quarter in the slot if you know your next pull lands on triple sevens?

      • Observer

        Only if I have the quarter in hand. Imagine trying to borrow a quarter from a stranger by telling him the next coin in this machine is a sure thing. If the stranger believes you, why would he give you the quarter instead of gambling the coin himself?

        • DFarwell

          Observer, where are you getting the information or at very least the impression that they do not have the “coin”? This seems to be baseless conjecture looking at their portfolio.

          • Observer

            Conjecture – yes. Baseless – no.
            Read all the references to how much IH has raised and add it up. My numbers are as stated, but are far from the last word.

            As for their portfolio, it is already obligated to other projects.

            • DFarwell

              The reason I say it is baseless is because you are claiming to know the finances of a giant Investment group that has deep diverse investments and a track record showing they do not have trouble raising money. I don’t necessarily trust IH on everything as we are all still waiting for more information or comments from IH, but to assume they do not have the means to obtain the funds is purely baseless to me. What references are you referring to that would indicate they do not have the means to the funds?

              • Omega Z

                “they do not have trouble raising money.”

                Then explain the multiple project bankruptcies in process.

                • DFarwell

                  Omega, with all due respect this question makes me wonder if you understand investment financing. Honestly I am not trying to be argumentative, but I think you would find that most investment firms of their size would be comparable in that realm. As disgusting as it is….it goes with the territory. False logic there.

                • Omega Z

                  A guy has a $5 million dollar business. He’s already leveraged due to borrowing for upgrades and improvements. He goes to the bank and says I need to borrow more money. I can buy my competitor for a million$ and double the size of my business.

                  The banker says, You don’t have the cash flow for additional payments. You want to buy another business that is obviously in financial straights or they wouldn’t be selling it that cheap. This will cost more cash to fix that you don’t have. Sorry. No Loan. You would obviously default on the new loan and likely default on your current debt due to this burden.
                  ————————————————–
                  Now, Darden goes to a bank because his current assets are already leveraged. I need 90 Million$ to invest in LENR. Within a few years we will make BILLIONS.

                  The Banker says, you don’t have the cash flow to make the payments. What you may earn in a few years doesn’t matter.

                  Then he says Wait. you want to invest in WHAT?
                  We don’t loan money to crazy people.
                  ————————————————–
                  And “We don’t loan money to crazy people”, will be the norm from all sources. Your talking about something very controversial and unproven. Nothing on the market. You need cold hard cash to invest in this. Even Woodford’s investment was a tiny fraction of their total assets.

                  I’m not saying Darden couldn’t come up with some cash. I’m saying he probably couldn’t come up with the full $89 million in cash.

                  Consider this.
                  Investors willing to get in want shares. How many shares did Darden already part with to get what they have from Woodford and others to date. He could find himself out of the loop.

                  Look at Robert Godes-
                  He has aleady given up 95% of his Brillouin Energy IP shares. He also is having trouble obtaining further funding. I’m sure this will quickly change. Once a product hits the market. Until then. Nothing.

                • DFarwell

                  That is more speculation in one post than I have seen in a long time. Please provide some actual data or proof beyond conjecture.

                • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

                  Bankruptcies happen when you business is not profitable and nobody add money to the pot anymore, but you need it.

                  if a business is probably profitable like would be commercialization of E-cat X in US, with projected benefit above a bilion, them borowing or IPO over 100Mn$ is not a problem.

                  note also, and especially for Rossi who is very emotional, that not paying is best way to establish bad relation with the inventor.
                  By not paying IH lose much, not only 1Bn of benefit, but also all hop of good relationship with Rossi, and they endanger all future business with Rossi.

                  the only credible explanation of not paying, or ruining the relationship, is that there is a huge , really HUGE, problem with what was delivered.

                  what was to be delivered is not the 1MW test, it is the IP transfer allowing IH to build E-cat that works.

                  if IH had E-cat that work, even if unreliable, not so stable, not so performing, they would just continue to fund Rossi and pay him pizza and good wine.

                  now conclude?

                  things are so clear I have to take sunglasses.

                • Omega Z

                  I believe Cherokee is like most of the world including Corporations. Their assets are already leveraged and their cash strapped.

                  The Fed has printed money to be borrowed, but no one is borrowing it causing the Fed to talk about negative interest.. Few are borrowing because they are already over extended and to borrow, you need to have the means to repay. I borrow money for a house, Repayment starts in 30 days, not several years from now. I think Cherokee just couldn’t come up with that much cash at this time.

              • Andreas Moraitis

                IH is a small cap start-up business, not a „giant investment group“. The group you are referring to is Cherokee. Rossi/Leonardo claim that they had been deceived about the relationship between IH and Cherokee (see § 112 of the lawsuit).

                Although Darden is Cherokee’s CEO and Vaughn holds an important position as well, it seems unlikely that they could decide alone about a possible capital transfusion to IH.

          • Omega Z

            As to the “portfolio”

            Those are projects with funds invested and many financial liabilties already in play. Note many of said projects have filed bankruptcy or are at risk of bankruptcy.

            Bottom line. Their portfolio is Liabilities. Not cash in hand.

            • DFarwell

              My question still stands, do you have first hand access to their bank accounts, records of past, current and future investments? Bottom line pure baseless conjecture.

              • Omega Z

                What I do know is they have multiple projects going in default and filling bankruptcy. That’s a cash flow issue.

                What I also know is the World Corporations are in dire straights at this time and if that bubble bursts all at once, even the U.S. doesn’t have enough ink to fix it. The Great Depression could look like a walk in the park. Things may get very interesting in the next couple years.

                $30 Trillion in Corporate debt and 50% is teetering on default. They are struggling to make the minimum interest payments on their debt as low as those rates are.

                Many are using small venders money for cash flow. They do that by non payment on goods for 6 months after delivery. Verizon is spinning off phone sale receivables to free up cash flow. Apple, a flag ship corporation net balance sheet slide another $40 Billion into the red for a total of $80 Billion.

                Nearly everyone including Governments are over extended. Cherokee is no different then any others. Their assets are already leveraged thus the bankruptcies. They have no cash flow.

        • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

          Perhaps not a coincidence then that Rossi seems to have found himself a new partner just as things went bad with Industrial Heat.

    • Omega Z

      We actually have no idea if Darden/IH received actual funds from the China connection. Only a commitment to an R&D development in China.
      However, I would question whether they have the funds to pay the $89 million.

    • bfast

      If IH didn’t have all of the money, they should be coming to Rossi, hat in hand, to pay part. They should then make the technology very public, and they’ld have the money in no time.

      “The first priority of any money raised would be to pay back Darden’s 11 million” Nope. Investors get paid last, not first. The hope of the investor is to ride the thing to some semblance of a top, then cash out. We aren’t started yet, let alone topped.

      • Observer

        Cherokee does not gamble its own money. Not when they can gamble someone else’s instead.

        • Omega Z

          You sound as if you’re aware of the M.O.
          🙂

  • cashmemorz

    Actually Rossi is looking and getting old. Is IH biding their time till Rossi passes away? Will IH be able to spin their agenda uncontested after that point?

  • Barbierir
    • DrD

      Quote:
      “During summer 2015, IH offered Rossi to back out from the test and
      cancel it, with a significant sum of money as compensation. Rossi’s
      counter offer was to give back the already paid 11.5M and cancel the
      license agreement, but IH didn’t accept.”
      I think confirms it’s all about the IP.

    • artefact

      Very interesting post by Mats. Thanks!

      • DrD

        YES, Some very valuable information there!
        Many thanks indeed.

        • DrD

          So many implications in this — for instance:
          not exactly unexpected but the US stands to lose out if Quark mass production is in Sweden.
          AR only has the $11.5M in total and expects the litigation to only cost $1M.

          • Omega Z

            It’s possible Rossi is trying to force Darden’s hand in court.

            Pay the $89 million and we move on or the Court should rescind the contract awarding the License back to Rossi for all Industrial heat territory.

    • artefact

      Quote: “Now, all this makes me conclude that the E-Cat is most probably valid and that the 1MW test was indeed successful”

    • DrD

      More quotes:
      “The water heated by the MW plant was circulating in a closed loop,
      and since the return temperature was varying, due to different load in
      the process of the customer, Rossi insisted that the energy
      corresponding to heating the inflowing cooled water (at about
      60˚C) to boiling temperature would not be taken into account for
      calculating the thermal power produced by the MW plant. The ERV
      accepted.
      He also insisted that an arbitrary chosen 10 percent should be
      subtracted in the power calculation, with no other reason than to be
      conservative. The ERV accepted.”

      REALLY?
      So Cop>50 was very conservative if this is correct but rather surprising. Why completely ignore a chunk of energy production.

  • Gerard McEk

    It sounds like Andra is preparing an event maybe to support his case:

    “Jag bara undrar?”
    May 16, 2016 at 4:34 AM
    Am I right in assuming that it is essential for the Leonardo Corporation to the upcoming trial really goes to the “bottom” of this civil suit . It is so important that it does not matter how long the trial will be. Gladly few extra months just to get a good job done ….

    Andrea Rossi
    May 16, 2016 at 6:44 AM
    “Jag bara undrar”:
    I agree, but, probably, before the suit will arrive to the verdict, a very important event will happen in the market, independently from the civil suit. I am dedicating the 90% of my working time to make this event possible.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • DrD

      Sounds like more than just the private demo to the customer.

  • f sedei

    One should never reject the idea that an outside force (Federal Government?) is effecting the implementation of such an important, earth impacting discovery.

  • kdk

    Yeah, the argument of getting cooked is nonsense. We’re fed nonsense everyday on the telly, though.

  • Curbina

    I have said It since the complaint was known and will say It again: the customer of the 1MW plant can resolve this whole shenanigan in the Blink of an eye if subpoenaed To show their production data.

    • Engineer48

      Rossi has stated there are 18 volumes of additional undisclosed documents lodged with the courts. For sure what you mention is in those lodged but locked documents as well as the 4 ERV reports and the signed agreement that all parties agreed to the ERV instruments and measurement protocol before the 1 year test started.

      Rossi has also stated the ERV installed his own video cameras as well did Rossi who went on to claims there are 24/7/352 days of video logs from multiple cameras, showing the the IH personnel doing their day to day duties as well as Darden and Vaughn showing clients the plant and talking with the customer’s plant manager and engineers.

      If I was the ERV, you can be sure I would have installed multiple cameras at each monitoring instrument and where the monitoring equipment was located with a wired lead to a secure logging server.

  • Engineer48

    Where did they vent all the heat?

    To the really big heat sink in the sky. The atmosphere.

    To put the heat load into perspective, solar energy density at the surface of the planet is around 1kW/m^2. Each factory unit has a roof area of approx 6,000’^2 or 557m^2. Peak solar heat load is then 557 x 1kW = 557kW of heat or a bit more than 0.5MW of heat. Ok most gets reflected back or insulation slows the downward progression enough for the sun to set and any trapped heat in the roof to be radiated back into the atmosphere overnight. Remember that roof can have a 0.557MW heat load applied to it as can an area equivalent area of concrete outside the warehouses.

    Easy to see each warehouse unit could receive 50kWt or more of heat through the roof and so an additional 50kW of waste heat from the 1MW ECat reactor could be easily handled by the 2 roof top heat extractor fans.

    The waste heat is not a big issue, except to those who apparently seek to distribute misleading information and beat it up as if to claim the warehouses would be a thermal killing zone.

    Very hard to fool physics and engineers who know their stuff.

    • TVulgaris

      Or anyone who’s ever been in a reasonably large single-story building

      in Florida and actually paid any attention.

  • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

    Yes. I think so. And the last movements seems to point in that direction. So, all could be a misdirection so people like Gates get enough time to break free from oil investments.

    And this makes a lot of sense. IH could make a final arrangement when it gets the OK expecting to keep the IP but that could be a dangerous game if Rossi denies IH the IP as part of the breach of the agreement.

  • timycelyn

    My money is on stingy tech transfer in a case where the the device is still a little capricious and needs occasional expert nursing.

    The ill intentioned could spin that wonderfully, as indeed they have been….

    • Engineer48

      Don’t agree.

      If the 1MW plant ran in SSM most of the time, IH, who designed and manufactured the plant, needed to design in the necessary SSM controls or it would now have happened.

      The 1MW ECat plant is a complex beast. No way could Rossi wave a magic wand over it and magically it would engage SSM for hours at a time. I can assure you, any manual control inputs to the 1MW ECat controlling computers would be logged for later review.

      • timycelyn

        I think you slightly misunderstand my point here. I don’t disagree with any point you make other than in the fact that the plant was undoubtedly a little cranky, especially after passing the 8 month mark or thereabouts.

        Now, you are probably correct in saying everything that was done to the plant was logged, but unless Rossi also logged his reasoning behind each manoeuvre they will still be groping partially in the dark. Only Rossi knows what he heard down the stethoscope!!

        One can imagine the conversation: “Why the heck did he do that then? There was no evidence it was going to give a problem at that point, but somehow he knew and adjusted parameters a, b, z. Why? Why?….” <>

      • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

        customer is not IH known, it was presented by Rossi.

        One theory that circulate is that it is a fake customer.

        We don’t have enough data to attack or defend anybody, except to warn against each camp who can be dishonest , and to remind each can be innocent.

        if IH know how to build an E-cat, given what they signed, not keeping good relation with rossi (ie paying 89Mn, offering him cookies and escorts, flattering his ego in public), would be stupid …

        there is a problem.
        either IH is driven by psychiatric case, or simply they don’t know how to build an E-cat that works well.

        the 1MW test have no importance.
        this is why I find logical that they offered Rossi to stop making the test and focus more on a 100W test that works.

        • Engineer48

          Rossi has stated IH met the customer in the office of his attorney and that IH agreed to sell the customer 24MWht of heat per day or a payment of $1k per day.

          The customer was IH’s customer & the IH designed & built plant was IH’s plant.

          That the IH customer didn’t want IH or anybody else to see their production is not unusual as it may involve trade secret techniques.

          As I see it, IH wanted an early end to the test so Rossi would agree to less than the required $89m payout and not have go to market proof of a viable market ready LENR reactor.

          What Rossi wanted was the $89m AND go to market commercial PROOF that he had a commercially viable LENR reactor for sale as at the finish of the 1 year test.

  • kdk

    Yeah, there wouldn’t be a much better way to end the jig of your own scam than by doing that.

  • Engineer48

    I see 4 roof vents, 2 on each adjacent unit, so 2 roof vents for the 1MWt ECat in the 2nd from the top unit and another 2 roof vents in the 3rd from the top customer unit.

    The 1MWt ECat plant is heavily insulated, so say 5% waste heat loss in the top reactor warehouse unit for a thermal load of 50kWt. No biggie for those roof ventilators to exhaust that heat to atmo.

    As for the waste heat of the customer’s process I have no data but if the customer’s manufacturing process is heavily endothermic (heat is embodied into new or altered chemical bonds), as Rossi shared, then the customer’s waste heat could be moderate to low.
    .

  • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

    The court case may take a long time to get started but it’s not going to last very long. Rossi is saying white and Industrial Heat is saying black (it appears). They can’t both be right and the party that is right should have an easy time proving it.

    • TVulgaris

      This is a civil case between a plaintiff with a lot of money (AR) and a defendant with a WHOLE LOT of money- it will drag out as long as IH insists, with appeals and counter-suits. Proof is going to be MUCH less useful than procedural mastery, even with Rossi’s immense amounts of evidence. And the outcome ultimately pivots on which way court corruption (nearly as likely a thing in the US as in Italy) sways.
      I’m not sanguine with this prospect at all- but if the US just gets left a decade or two behind AGAIN due to corporate malfeasance and a total lack of initiative from the government to support LENR research in ways that could make a substantive and rapid difference, maybe the world won’t completely self-destruct. Our energy consumption, while growing, is slipping from 40% of the global total to something like 25% this year (it is still triple what it should be, but efficiency gains and conservation actually HAVE made a big dent, and there’s an even bigger dent from the recession and slow recovery), so maybe as we crumble while the big dogs tear into each other, the world will sail on into a better future on the back of our stupidity and venality.

      • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

        Fair point. The trial could drag out indefinitely on procedural matters. In terms of fact-finding and judgment/deliberation though it should be open and closed.

        Regarding the US falling behind, take heart. If the tech is real it will emerge soon. There are multiple pathways to success. Once perceived as real, research and development will skyrocket. Progress in both adoption and technical evolution should be rapid, worldwide. The potential is humongous and cannot be ignored.

  • Engineer48

    I negotiated with Rossi, in regard to a potential client, who had an interest in testing ECat 600C steam to drive one of many subcritical steam turbines the own at one of their brown coal thermal plants. I was informed by Rossi that 600C steam was not currently available.

    My client then expressed interest in purchasing a 1MW 105C steam ECat plant to run for extended periods to gain operational experience in how well the plant responds to steam load changes and how the overall plant is controlled and maintained.

    That process went forward but has not stopped until the current legal issues are settled. Rossi did say a visit to an operational 1MW plant could be arranged for my client. Of course thermal plant builders / operators are mostly engineering types, so very hard to pass their BS filter as they know steam tech like the back of their hand.

    Nothing Rossi shared triggered any BS filter. The client seemed to have their own sources of LENR data. I mean what dirty brown coal thermal plant owner in the world would not be interested in 600C steam from a LENR driven boiler to replace their dirty brown coal boiler? They all watch this space as they know it could well be their future pathway to save stranding their dirty brown coal driven thermal plants.

    From what they shared with me, there are massive undercurrents flowing and moving in the large scale thermal power plant industry. Those plant engineers and their managers are not fools to swallow the current media BS storm.

    Just like the US Navy would not publish this without 1st checking the validity of the data they used in the Sept 2015 slide.
    .

    • Engineer48

      I’m sure you realise what these stainless units are?

      My take is they are bolt in boiler heater replacement elements with a IH HotCat 1,400C Dog Bone reactor inside each heater element.

      Being heated by 1,400C HotCats would sure boil a lot of water directly, without needing any heat exchangers. Hey maybe cut a few holes in an existing coal dust boiler furnace and eliminate the need for coal dust to heat the steam. For sure would withstand the required pressure.
      .

    • Stephen Taylor

      Extremely interesting, thank you for sharing your experiences. Please do keep us posted on how this plays out. Logically, if the technology is valid at some useful level and there are customers lined up and ready to put it to work we should see this begin to happen relatively soon wouldn’t you agree?

    • Stephen Taylor

      Mainly, what Lou DeChiaro related was his unbridled enthusiasm for the field of LENR. He just reviewed the facts as we all know them and stated what the entrepreneurs are claiming to have.

  • Stephen

    There are some interesting exchanges and information on the Vortex mail archive:

    https:[email protected]/

    Under the Topic “LENR and the feline nature of the e-cat” would be interesting if an HVAC engineer could review some of the comments there. Especially regarding comparable electric heater boilers and waste heat.

    I think Jed’s been miss informed about some things maybe accidentally from misunderstanding the data. He assumes AR still uses the 50 units that are backup units for example instead of the 4 250 kW units. And seems to confuse electrical boilers with much larger ones using fire tubes. I hope his conflicting data about output doesn’t come from the backup units.

    • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

      Seems Jed is starting to backtrack after Peter Gluck’s latest observations.

      There used to be a guy on Vortex-L, Roberson I think, who did all sorts of heat modeling regarding various E-Cat designs. I’d be interested in his analysis on the waste heat issue if he’s still around.

      On the face of it the large factory(ies) with high ceilings, venting (maybe even back doors open sometimes), air conditioning and conduction seem more than adequate to handle the situation but some careful calculations would settle it.

      If Industrial Heat is forming a case around calorimetry that’s off by 50x and faulty waste heat analysis, then there is a lot of hot air around indeed.

      • Omega Z

        The heat argument is B.S.
        I’ve worked around high temp operations and 1MW isn’t anything.

        Jed’s problem is a lack of real world experience around large volume heat application. He’s being fed misinformation with nothing to judge it by.

        LENR G, Your statement about high ceilings and conduction are spot on.

    • http://www.chatwing.com/eestorchat EEStorFanFibb

      Jed Rothwell confused and misinformed? Shocking!

  • Gerard McEk

    About these endless discussions on EgoOut with Jed, Anonimous and whoever: I believe that no one on these blogs is aware of what really happend. Jed’s ridiculous claims that the full 1MW was continuously being dissipated in the one or two halls and not used for any production, can be just as far off as any other claim of the ‘other side’. It has no use to react on it. Let us wait for the judge. I just hope Rossi has very good and verifiable data to settle this all quickly.

    • Andre Blum

      If I were APCO, I would find someone who is well respected in the LENR community, but with a somewhat critical stance towards Rossi, and feed him some info and put words in his mouth.
      Not saying this is happening with Jed, but wanted to make the point that no one can be trusted to not have an agenda right now.

  • passerby

    Is the plant still in use by the customer?

    • Engineer48

      Unknown.

      Weaver claims IH “trusted engineers” came to Doral for the 1st time and padlocked the container doors of the 1MW ECat plant after the test was completed.

      • Gerard McEk

        The only thing we know is that AR said the 1MW plant was being recharged after the test was done. I would assume it is still in operation somewhere. Because the plant is of IH and build by IH, I would assume they are continuing testing it. I do think that AR’s continuous personal attendance contributed to the high COP and that IH will not be able to do that them selves. I think Andrea more or less said this in one of his comments.

        • Omega Z

          ->”AR said the 1MW plant was being recharged after the test”
          I think that all came to a stop and the building locked up when IH refused to pay up.

      • psi2u2

        Unfortunately the location is still apparently listed for rent, which contradicts Rossi’s assurance that the site is still rented by the customer.

        • TVulgaris

          The building my business has been in for 10 years has been listed for rent for most of that time.

          This is a standard come-on for owners and agents for many, many decades, and even an incentive to break the lease, legally or not. There’re very, very many people who will push such things past the letter of the law, counting on enough wins if ever taken to court, to net enough to make it worthwhile.

          • SG

            Sad but true. That the building is listed for lease means little.

          • psi2u2

            I see. Thanks for the clarification.

    • Alain Samoun

      According to Rossi talking to Lewan: All the equipments of the customer has been moved back to their factory and also for testing the accuracy of their instruments. The E-Cat reactor seems to be at the same location of the test, protected by locks owned by IH and Rossi…

  • SG

    Someone claiming to be Jed Rothwell (I’m assuming it probably is Jed) stated the following on the Ego Out blog comment section:

    “It is not in self sustain mode as far as I know. I don’t know where you heard that, but there is no excess heat. The only thing coming out is what they put in.

    I am sorry, but I cannot discuss any specifics, except for the information that Rossi has made public, such as his claim that the machine produces 1MW and he spend hours inside it. That cannot be true because he would be cooked.”

    So, his current contention for why I.H. is right and the ERV is wrong is because Rossi would have been cooked by spending time in the 1 MW plant. This doesn’t seem to be a very well-thought-out attack. Any one of numerous explanations could refute this position. Such as, thermal insulation, air-conditioning, ceiling chimney, or most importantly, the fact that there were two containers and Mr. Rossi has stated many times he spent most of his time in the second container with the computers. Is Jed really going to hang his hat on this one?

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Usually I appreciate JR’s comments, but I think in this case his argumentation is indeed weak. I had exactly the same thought about the second container. Obviously, he is not adequately informed about all the details.

      • Engineer48

        Additionally Weaver claims the 1MWt plant was in an adjacent warehouse unit and fed the steam through a hole in the common wall to the customers production, which could be an endothermic reaction that embodies most of the heat energy as new or altered chemical bonds.

        That means there was 2x the volume of either warehouse unit to handle any waste heat and the warehouse unit with the 1MW reactor only needed to handle it’s lost waste heat, which if properly insulated as it appears to be, should be maybe 50kWt, assuming 5% lost heat from 1MWt of generated heat.

        As an engineer, have read a lot of fairly uninformed statements about the heat that when worked through just do not stack up. So sorry Jed and Weaver, it was not a killing zone inside either warehouse.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          See also:

          Andrea Rossi
          May 15, 2016 at 10:15 PM

          Oystein Lande:
          Inside the computer container we had a 3 kW air conditioner. Keeping the doors closed we could work well ( the computer container is m. 9 x 2.5 x 2.5 ).
          Of course some heat was lost inside the factory, but the ceiling of the factory had many air exhausts and the warm air, being lighter, goes toward the ceiling and the factory has a good height.

          Warm Regards,
          A.R.

          It should be possible to make some rough calculations on the basis of these data, assuming a maximum room temperature.

          • Engineer48

            Remember Weaver has claimed the 1MW plant was in an adjacent warehouse unit and fed the steam to the customer’s warehouse unit through a hole in the common wall.

            To me this seems to be what any good engineer would do, separate the waste heat from the reactor into it’s own space and that of the customer into it’s own space.

            From that, assuming a 1MWt generation and 5% waste heat radiation into the 1MW plant’s isolated warehouse space, gives us 50kWt of heat to deal with in the volume of the warehouse unit. For sure not the killing field some would suggest, but yes AC in the computer contained would be nice.

            • Stephen Taylor

              It is nice and soooo typical of how things are actually done in industrial production areas.

              • Engineer48

                1MW plant and adjacent customer warehouse units at 7863 and 7861 46th Doral.

                Each of the 2 warehouse unit has 5,925ft^2 of usable floor space, 20ft ceilings and are approx 40ft wide and 150ft long.

                There are 2 large ventilation fans shown on the roof of each unit plus a smaller A/C unit.

                • Stephen Taylor

                  Great information. I was not aware the ceiling vents were already verified. This, along with your analysis of the most sensible heat flow for a normal process completely blows away the cooked lobster foolishness. It is incredible how much wasted thermal energy can simply be vented to atmosphere as anyone who has toured a glass plant or worked in a filling and packaging environment can attest to. Those little air conditioned cacoons are a great place to hang out and monitor process parameters! The larger roof A/C might not even be used most of the time as the vents are doing the bulk of the waste heat removal.

                • Engineer48

                  No one who understand the engineering involved would ever make such foolish statements other than to mislead those who do not understand the engineering.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Good find. Makes complete sense except he didn’t mention a ceiling vent/ exhaust fan. If there is no hole in that ceiling Rossi is in deep doo doo.

        • Stephen Taylor

          Yes again, all this silly talk of lobster steaming makes no sense to those of us from industrial levels of production steam. Vent to atmosphere all lost heat. End of story.

          • Engineer48

            Yup. Done deal.

    • DrD

      I couldn’t agree more. Surely they can’t be serious, whoever it is. If most of the 1MW was piped out of the container as steam the 3kW aircon or even a fan would easily take care of the rest.
      A shot in the foot (own goal).
      At least the argument that the factory itself would be rather hot has some credibilty but this is?
      Edit: What does “it is not in self —” mean? It’s current condition is irrelevant, is it just wrong use of current tense?

    • http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/ barty

      Whether Rossi is getting cooked or not is depending on the efficiency of the heat exchangers I would assume?

      When the produced heat is transfered to where it is needed, the container should be more or less “cool”.

      • Engineer48

        My understanding is there were no heat exchangers as the 4 x 250kWt ECat reactors directly received the return water feed from the customer’s plant, generated steam internally to the reactors (like the original pillow box reactors as attached) and then sent the steam to the customer via a hole in the common wall of the 2 warehouse units.

        So 2 adjoining warehouse units, one with the 40′ 1MWt plant container and the smaller 20′ computer container Rossi and 2 other IHers worked in and another warehouse unit with the customers production setup.

    • sam

      Oystein Lande
      May 15, 2016 at 3:17 AM
      Dear mr. Rossi,

      what size of HVAC system did you use to keep the working conditions cool inside the 1MW container?

      I assume a few percent of the 1MW was lost as heat inside the container, which you would need to remove.

      Andrea Rossi
      May 15, 2016 at 10:15 PM
      Oystein Lande:
      Inside the computer container we had a 3 kW air conditioner. Keeping the doors closed we could work well ( the computer container is m. 9 x 2.5 x 2.5 ).
      Of course some heat was lost inside the factory, but the ceiling of the factory had many air exhausts and the warm air, being lighter, goes toward the ceiling and the factory has a good height.
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

    • Omega Z

      Jed should stick to what he’s good at. Cataloging LENR papers.
      He’s obviously not an expert on heat and how it dissipates.

      Guaranteed, a 3 foot by 3 foot open door on an industrial furnace. 1600` F and you can stand within four foot of that opening 8 hours a day. You will not be cooked.

  • Alain Samoun

    Frank: Do you know how many days or hours the plant has been producing at a COP of 50 during the test? Has this question been asked to Rossi?

    • Engineer48

      Rossi’s filed complaint against IH claims the heat energy generated by the 1MW ECat plant, over the course of the ~1 year test, versus electrical input energy over the same period was significantly greater than a COP of 50.

      • Engineer48

        Information released by the US Navy in Sept 2015 indicates they received the same information on the 1MW Ecat test at about the middle of the test period.

        Presentation here:
        http://www.scoop.it/t/lenr-revolution-in-process-cold-fusion/p/4052680550/2015/10/02/low-energy-nuclear-reactions-lenr-phenomena-and-potential-applications-louis-f-dechiaro

        Past discussion here:
        http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/10/05/us-naval-sea-systems-command-presentation-on-lenr/

        What is new here is the US Navy seems to have obtained a copy of the 3 monthly ERV reports or were briefed on its contents.

        • Stephen Taylor

          I was in attendance at the IEEE presentation by Dr. Lou DeChiaro referenced above. The most impressive verifiable fact he presented that evening in September last year was the Stan Spazk, Pam Mosier-Boss 100% reproducibility on PdD2O co-deposition results from 2012. Dr. Spazk’s wonderful interview with Ruby Carat is available on her website ColdFusinNow.org
          Now that’s the kind of science I can get enthusiastic about. What an amazing interview!

          • Engineer48

            Yes I agree and it is people like this that come forward to share intel that makes be 100% accept LENR is very real and alive in many labs all over the world.

            • Stephen Taylor

              Me too, but I’m very worried by these recent developments. It seems maybe very hard to get a robust, reliable and reproducible system that will provide worldwide significant power. Hopeful, but very worried right now. Damn.

              • Engineer48

                I’m not worried but I suspect IH may be very worried.

                • Stephen Taylor

                  My sense is that they are honorable. I regret to say that I am very worried Dr. Rossi may be over stating his level of mastery of the science, such as it is.

                • Engineer48

                  The only was Rossi’s claims are incorrect is that fraud occurred by the ERV in the measurement system he engaged or in the measurements taken and the reports from the customer.

                  BTW IH agreed to the ERV’s sensors and measurement protocol prior to the 1MW plant test starting and agreed to the ERV test report being the single determination of the IH obligation to pay Rossi success money..

                  Plus the customer needs to be lying about the quantity of the deliver heat they received.

                  Rossi claims to have the ERV report, the customer’s electricity bills & a monthly report by the customer’s engineer on the amount of delivered heat.

                  Would seem someone is engaging in activities designed to defraud either Rossi or IH big time. A very sharply defined black & white line has been draw by both parties.

                  So pass the hot buttered popcorn and a cold beer or two or maybe a cheese plate and a glass or two of a nice Barossa red.

                • Stephen Taylor

                  Yes, I’ll sip mine this afternoon while pondering the cost of a substantial active solar array in the back yard.

                • Engineer48

                  Nice!

                • Warthog

                  Heh….the answer to the problems of “little birdies” was figured out long ago….put a “perching site” close to but not over the solar panels… Birds will virtually always choose the highest vantage point to perch on.

                  You still need to clean the panels, but not nearly as often.

              • kdk

                Once they start to understand the causes of the thermal runaway, which more than a few replicators have run into, Pd-D will probably work for making energy, besides just the Ni-H-Li system. There are probably more combinations that would work for LENR than just those 2.

    • Frank Acland

      That’s the average for the whole test apparently.

  • Owen Geiger

    If all this is true (and I have no reason to doubt it) it points to an out of court settlement.

  • kdk

    I would say the data being released would make it “case closed”. Maybe one of our skeptics could calculate how many pots of tea could have been brewed. Of course, Rossi didn’t make any tea so we know it’s bunk.>.>

    • Engineer48

      You think that is strange, well check this out:

      2016 IH patent application is basically a copy of 2014 Ecat Lugano report. Note image 18D showing claimed COP > 3.6.

      https://thenewfire.wordpress.com/2016-industrial-heat-patentapplication-is-a-copy-of-lugano-report/

      So IH now claim no excess heat from the reactor they designed, manufactured & had tested by the Lugano team, yet claimed excess heat in their patent application.

      Bit strange that.

      • Engineer48

        I now wonder if the USTPO will invalidate this IH patent application as IH are now claiming the HotCat DogBone reactors they designed, manufactured & supplied to the Lugano team did not produce any excess heat as the patent application claims.

      • DrD

        If it’s priority date is post Lugano and the details were already in the public domain it wouldn’t be valid. Maybe the patented details weren’t published.