Use of Frequencies in the E-Cat

Alan Smith’s article posted yesterday has generated discussion on a topic that I think could be interesting: what might the role of frequencies play in stimulating the E-Cat reaction. Here are three interesting comments on this topic from ScienceFan, Agaricus and Alan Smith from the comments in Alan’s article:

ScienceFan:

In the PDF of the October 6, 2011 E-Cat test, there was a line that always intrigued me that seemed to be overlooked by most people who read it:
15:53 Power to the resistance was set to zero. A device “producing frequencies” was switched on.
Overall current 432 mA. Voltage 230 V.
Current through resistance was zero, voltage also zero.
From this moment the E-cat ran in self sustained mode.
https://animpossibleinvention.files.wordpress.com201604test-of-e-cat-october-6.pdf

What if this is the missing piece and key to reproduction of LENR and high COP output: A radio frequency being broadcast on the test sample which catalyzes the heat output? This might explain why Rossi’s original E-Cat can produce energy at lower temperatures, while others struggle to get COP higher than 1.

If only I had the time and money to do my own tests… 🙁

Agaricus:

I couldn’t agree more. I’ve been intermittently banging on about this since 2011, when I speculated that one of the two ‘heaters’ in the benchtop prototype was redundant and may have been used to generate the ‘frequencies’ applied to the fuel mixture. My guess at the time was that Rossi may have tried induction heating of the core at some point, and found that this was the ‘secret sauce’ that made the difference.

Louis DeChiaro (NAVSEA) practically spelled out the importance of ‘resonant frequency matching’ in matrix-based LENR systems (Research notes, published on this blog: http://www.e-catworld.com/2015… ). A Ukrainian group appears to be using RF to directly drive their design of LENR reactor (http://www.e-catworld.com/2015… ).

I’m continually puzzled by the lack of attention given to Rossi’s mentions of ‘frequencies’ and to the apparent reluctance of replicators to either incorporate a suitable EM coil in their designs, and to feed it with various waveforms at different amplitudes during their experiments, or to incorporate a couple of tungsten electrodes so that pulsed DC can be applied to the ‘fuel’ mix directly. Like you I wish I had the time and resources to try these ideas for myself.

Edit: me356 seems to have fully engaged with ‘frequency’ drivers for LENR – I hope to see great things from this particular experimenter: e.g., https://www.lenr-forum.com/for…

Alan Smith

Hi Agaricus. Us chaps at Lookingforheat are well aware of the importance of ‘frequencies’. LFH AFAIK did the first analysis of (for example) the Lugano paper with its image of the PC-830 square wave output running at around 100kHz. Always aware that Rossi had no need to use 3-phase power to supply a >2kW heater and an awareness of the similarities between the way the Lugano dogbone was wired and the stator of a 3-phase motor we have been enxperimenting with various systems to drive our heater coils -and also various ways of wiring the coils themselves. So- in brief- sure that you are correct about the significance of this part of the ‘great mystery’.

  • Lou Pagnucco
  • ScienceFan

    For some reason, it didn’t include the forward slashes in the address when I posted my comment.

    https://animpossibleinvention.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/test-of-e-cat-october-6.pdf

    should read as:

    https colon forwardslash forwardslash animpossibleinvention.files.wordpress.com forwardslash 2016 forwardslash 04 forwardslash test-of-e-cat-october-6.pdf

  • Axil Axil

    The role of the EMF stimulus is to power the dipole motion of the electrons in the metal lattice. This alternating electric current produced by this dipole motion is where the power of LENR comes from. These lattice electrons are connected to photons by entanglement. When power is fed into dipole motion, the electrons can connect to even more energetic photons. For example, we can start out with infrared light, then go to visible light, and eventually get to UV and x-rays. It is these photons, balls of light as Fulvio Fabiani has described that produce the LENR effect. The electrons are bound to the surface of the lattice but can drive the balls of photons via entanglement and pass added energy to them.

  • LT

    Using the harmonics of the current pulses for stimulation of the ECAT has one problem. Unless the pulses are very small (But when you increase power, they become wider), the higher harmonics tend to roll off to very low values for frequencies where stimulation is expected to occur. See for example the harmonics plot in figure 5 of the Lugano report. It can clearly be seen that the amplitudes of the harmonics are becoming smaller for the higher harmonics. The question is then if for frequencies where stimulation is expected to occur, there is enough energy in those harmonics left to stimulate the process.
    One other possibility might be that the thermocouple in the tube is used as an antenna to get RF energy to the process. (The thermocouple connection seems to come from the control box ?). If you enlarge the part of the thermocouple wire going over the ceramic tube in figure 12a of the Lugano report, you can see some striping over the thermocouple wire. This might be due to RF energy interfering with the camera sensor element. (some people will remember the striping due to rf interference on old analog tv sets)
    So maybe the thermocouple is used for rf stimulation ?

  • Josh G

    Good question. But Fabiani no longer works for IH. He set up an independent consulting company. Leonardo corp. might have hired his services to continue working for them…

    • wpj

      Well, in that case, the court case could be interesting if he is one of IH’s people who oversaw the year long test.

      I thought his role was to sort out the control systems for the plant.

      • Josh G

        Yes, but he was also there on the ground all the time. I don’t know whether IH relied on him for oversight.

        • wpj

          Well, they saw that they had independent people verifying that there was no COP>1, and he was one of the 2 IH people there on site. Doesn’t mean that he agrees with them.

          • Josh G

            I’m not sure that’s what they said. I know they said (through proxies) that they disagree with Penon’s conclusoin with cop>1, but they didn’t necessarily say that their observers found that out. It’s just Rossi who has been saying “they had eyes on the ground the whole time.” They can be witnesses to shenanigans, but I don’t think they will be material to the COP issue.

          • bachcole

            At that particular moment in time, do we know that he was I.H.’s guy or Rossi’s guy or his own guy?

  • Josh G

    I think you are confusing Fabio, the ERV, with Fulvio, an engineer hired by IH to work with Rossi on the 1 MW. The quotation comes from Fulvio, not Fabio. The skeptics keep repeating that these are “Rossi’s guy’s” but they haven’t offered a shred of evidence to support that. I think they believe that if they repeat it often enough, people will just accept it as fact.

    Now that Fulvio is no longer working for IH, he set up consulting company using Rossi’s lawyer. He might even have continued to work for Rossi, though it’s unclear. But even if he is “Rossi’s guy” now, that doesn’t mean he started out that way. In fact IIRC he stated in his interview(s) that he did not know Rossi prior to starting his work at IH. Fabio also has no known connection to Rossi until he was hired by IH to do the initial validation test back in 2012 (or was it 2013) for their acquisition of an e-cat license.

  • Brokeeper

    The arXiv.org article, ‘Nuclear Catalysis Mediated by Localized Anharmonic Vibrations’ by
    Vladimir Dubinko), best describes the LAV forces playing on the nuclear-active
    environment (NAE) based within the catalyzing LENR reactions which help to overcome the Coulomb barrier via quantum tunneling. This is started and exacerbated by the applied time-periodic modulation of the odd harmonics frequencies of a square wave (prescribed within the E-Cat patent) specifically tuned to the hydrogen atom restricted within the nano-cracks/lattice. It appears sustained LAV frequencies are then maintained from the resulting induced frequencies (maybe heat) from the fusion reactions like long vibrations of plucked violin strings (SSM).
    http://arxiv.org/abs/1510.06081

    • FRC

      I agree with you. The anharmonic conditions are not very well understood and take a well coordinated monitoring, to make a tune that raises COP.

      It like playing the piano by ear to a tune nobody else knows. An the tune Rossi is playing is a silent one heard only by his ears.

  • Skip

    Or he has figured out how to do it automatically, but has chosen not to implement it. When it runs on it’s own, who needs him? He’s not dumb…

  • Zephir

    The emission and catalysis of LENR by radiowaves has greatest support in Frank Znidarsic theory of cold fusion, according to which the orbitals behave like elastic bodies across to which resonate longitudinal and transverse waves. Frank derived the characteristic frequency of this resonance: under such a conditions the orbitals undulate heavily, which can enable the merging of atom nuclei.

  • KeithT

    On February 1st, 2015 a question is asked by Paul

    Andrea, What do you do all day when babysitting the 1MW plant?

    On February 1st, 2015 at 9:07 PM Andrea Rossi replies

    Paul: control of temperature, steam, flow rates, correct operation of pumps, electromagnetics, just to give an example

    So there appears to be a requirement to control the electromagnetics.

    • Axil Axil

      IH is in a pickle. They are in a position that the first plane designers were in if asked to replace the pilot in their bi-planes.

      They cannot get their designs to work because they need Rossi to control their reactor minute by minute, second by second.

      Rossi has spent years learning how to keep his cats under control, but IH is faced with a cat stampede and cannot get those tigers to do what they want them to do. So Sad…

      • Jonnyb

        Does any one know if IH were to pay up would they be able to us all the iterations of the E-CAT? If this were the case I would pay up and apologise. If they only get an older version or only the E-CAT and Hot CAT then maybe they need to ask themselves why they signed the contract in the first place.

        • Omega Z

          Had IH paid up, they would have access to all iterations of the E-cat.
          If found in breach, they could end up with zero rights to any E-cat technology.
          All depends on the ruling.

      • Karl Venter

        HI Axil
        In hydrogen embrittlement of steel you find the embrittlement on the grain boundries of the steel/nickel
        Could the difference in crystal structure at these grain boundies – not face centerd lattice but ” Tetrahedron . octahedron ,pentagonal bi pyramid , cap trigonal prism and bi – tetrahedron be the activation zone for lenr – why maybe the wire worrk well due to work hardening.?
        The grain boundry (GB) seems to have a different lattice structure and the capturing of a H atom in the structure is well studies

        • https://www.facebook.com/app_scoped_user_id/100002656573372/ Ian Walker

          Hi all

          This was where I came in. 🙂

          Kind Regards walker

          • Karl Venter

            Hi Ian
            any comments about H embrittlement and LENR

  • Lou Pagnucco

    I believe the term “heavy electron” applies to an electron wave-function moving at a slow translational speed, but driven by a (relatively) constant force impinging on a potential barrier. Then the wave-function acquires high momentum (and mass) via escalating more oscillatory frequencies in its envelop, while not attaining higher translational speed. See –

    “Electro-Weak and Electro-Strong Views of Nuclear Transmutations”
    (Slide 12) University of Rome on July 15, 2013 – Allan Widom
    vglobale.it/public/files/2013/Cirps-Widom.pdf
    I think the same result can be derived using Ehrenfest’s Theorem for a quantum wave-function subject to a constant force encountering a barrier.

    • ScienceFan

      I thought that ‘heavy electrons’ referred to a double-electron Hydrogen ion. The Hydrogen has its electron shell filled while having a negative overall charge, in effect acting as a massive electron which has higher inertia and momentum.

      • Lou Pagnucco

        I believe inner shell electrons in an atom are “heavier”, i.e., more energetic, hence more massive than outer shell electrons. Likewise a quantum particle confined in a potential well in a high energy eigenstate will be more massive than if it was in the ground state, even though the particle’s waveform is stationary.

        • bachcole

          Really great idea, but upon what do you base your belief. Theory would be nice, but evidence would be much better.

          • Lou Pagnucco

            Bachole,
            Nothing controversial about this.
            Any particle in a stationary higher energy eigenstate has more energy (= mass) than a lower energy eigenstate. This does not mean its waveform must have a higher translational velocity. The simplest example is a quantum particle confined in a deep potential well. It can possess different discrete energy (or mass) levels while trapped in the well.

  • Axil Axil

    https://animpossibleinvention.com/2015/11/25/rossis-engineer-i-have-seen-things-you-people-wouldnt-believe/

    Rossi’s engineer: ‘I have seen things you people wouldn’t believe’

    Talking about the validity of the E-Cat technology, Fabiani continues:

    “With the failures, I found myself having to believe in it. Why? Because when something fails, you see the behavior of the object. The next time you adjust it, then you see that it behaves very differently. And then you realize that it is something unique. We have it all filmed, which still cannot be disclosed. We have photographs of creatures that emit pure light that have completely melted the reactor down, all in a very quiet way. You just turn off the stimuli system and the reaction is switched off. It’s impressive.

    Note… You just turn off the stimuli system and the reaction is switched off. It’s impressive.

    • psi2u2

      So, Axil, I personally find this testimony rather impressive for its content. But I’m not a tekkie or an experimenter, and you are, right? What is your opinion of Fabiani’s testimony? You seem to imply that you find it credible, but I wonder if you could elaborate on that for us? No doubt someone else has another opinion, and we might have some fruitful dialogue on it.

      • Axil Axil

        I look for consistency. Do the dots fit together? This statement is totally consistent with my understanding about what is going on in the LENR reaction.

        • psi2u2

          Yes, I have to agree from my limited understanding.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Fabiani sounds credible to me. I think I read he is now employed or working with several companies…..I can’t wait for the movie.

    • Stephen

      Actually that makes more sense of his statements that he needed an external power supply, if the stimulus was RF stimulation or something else other than heat that required a electrical power source.

      Especially if the stimulation needed to be controlled by logic hardware and Software that also required a power source.

      • Axil Axil

        Rossi could not get the gas heated E-Cat to work because some sort of EMF stimulation is required to power the reaction.

        • Frank Acland
        • Stephen

          I suppose finding the right frequency combinations and stimulation for a particular device and materials might be quite difficult? Or perhaps not if its just noise or a square wave or something.

          • Axil Axil

            Rossi uses mica between his heater and fuel. That mica might form a sort of filter that lets pass the correct simulation frequency. I wonder if a spark surrounded by graphite or mica layer would let pass or possibly produce the proper stimulant frequency waveform from or in the hexagonal filter/generator.

            • nietsnie

              I have no direct evidence, but I also suspect that EM frequency stimulation is the secret sauce. I think what is needed is a controlled step-wise experiment in which a long series of specific frequencies are induced and results tabulated rather than attempting random combinations – even though it may be true that Rossi accidentally discovered what was needed in that way.

              • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Agaricus

                I agree that in the absence of Rossi’s inspired approach, a methodical approach is the best substitute. This is a comment I posted at the end of last year that seems relevant:

                “Until EM ‘driver’ input in particular is methodically addressed, IMHO the chances of a successful replication of the Rossi effect are low, and ‘replication’ attempts based on guesses at what might work are probably futile (but laudable anyway).

                In the absence of any convincing theory of operation, some kind or organised Edisonian approach seems to be the best option. This would require the use of a ‘test bed’ reactor which can be quickly and easily re-loaded with differing fuel mixes in sealed capsules, and incorporating a low resistance driver coil separate from the heating coil, through which a wide variety of waveforms and pulses could be injected. To speed up testing, it might be useful to design an algorithm that cycles through a pre-set series of inputs to the driver coil, which could be progressively refined when results become available.

                An apparatus like this should allow identification of ‘hopeful’ candidates and perhaps relatively rapid progress towards finding optimal combinations.”

  • Nigel Appleton

    Perhaps that’s how Parkhomov got his first replication with plain AC – while the reactor was running, someone unlocked a car or rang the doorbell with a 300 MHz device frantically to get his attention.

    No?

    Well, it’s as likely as some of the other theories flying about.

  • Frank Acland

    From the May 2013 Ferrara E-Cat Report, p.3

    Device and experimental set-up: TheE-Cat HT-type device in this experiment was a cylinder having a silicon nitride ceramic outer shell, 33 cm in length, and 10 cm in diameter. A second cylinder made of a different ceramic material (corundum) was located within the shell, and housed three delta-connected spiral-wire resistor coils. Resistors were laid out horizontally, parallel to and equidistant from the cylinder axis, and were as long as the cylinder itself. They were fed by a TRIAC power regulator device which interrupted each phase periodically, in order to modulate power input with an industrial trade secret waveform. This procedure, needed to properly activate theE-Cat HT charge, had no-4-bearing whatsoever on the power consumption of the device, which remained constant throughout the test.

    https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1305/1305.3913.pdf

    • psi2u2

      ” in order to modulate power input with an industrial trade secret waveform.”

      That sounds pretty unambiguous to me.

    • Thomas Kaminski

      The Triac regulated power supply will cause sharp voltage edges that have high frequency content. Perhaps this is the “high frequency excitation” source required. The Lugano test also did not use the self-sustain mode. Turning off the excitation AC power would have also stopped the high frequency excitation.

  • SG

    Applying direct current through the fuel is partly responsible for the “Rossi
    effect” and is expressly disclosed in WO2016018851A1 and in particular, the
    underlying provisional application 61/999,582, also publicly available
    from the WIPO website. The provisional application is more to the point and expressly states that “This is the Rossi effect.”

    • Andreas Moraitis

      61/999,582 mentions an anode and a cathode whose purpose is accelerating electrons. It does not imply that a current is conducted through the fuel. You could not maintain 100 kV in a short-circuit, because either the voltage would break down or the fuel would be vaporized (depending on the power of the source).

      • Pekka Janhunen

        I doubt that Rossi would have a 100 kV DC voltage source included in the device. Maybe it is some AC phenomenon that can accelerate some electrons to those energies, or maybe 100 keV is just a guess, intentional misleading or a typo.
        False or superfluous information does not harm in patents.

      • SG

        Accelerating electrons “up to 100KVe” and direct current is mentioned. The term “up to” can mean “you accelerate the electrons up to 100KVe for the effect to work” or it could also mean “you accelerate the electrons for the effect to work, and they can be accelerated anywhere from a little all the way up to 100 KVe.” I tend to interpret Mr. Rossi’s words as the latter, because it also talks about being able to control the effect by the voltage.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          It might be that the electrodes reach into the free space of the reactor chamber but do not touch the powder. The applied voltage would then lead to an ionization of the gas and a discharge after a short time. That way one could maintain the high voltage at least for a moment before the discharge begins.

          • US_Citizen71

            Maybe the ac signal causes voltage spikes like a sodium vapor light ballast varying the acceleration levels of the electrons?

            “In practical use, the lamp is powered by an AC voltage source in series with an inductive “ballast” in order to supply a nearly constant current to the lamp, rather than a constant voltage, thus assuring stable operation. The ballast is usually inductive rather than simply being resistive to minimize energy waste from resistance losses. Because the lamp effectively extinguishes at each zero-current point in the AC cycle, the inductive ballast assists in the reignition by providing a voltage spike at the zero-current point.” – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-vapor_lamp

  • Gerard McEk

    I do not believe that in the Lugano experiment RF was used. The power to the reactor was measured with a power-analyser. I hope the ‘professors’ had also a proper oscilloscope to measure the current/voltage to the reactor, so high frequencies would have been detected. Very annoying the the ‘professors’ never took the initiative to react on the many questions that came after that test.
    I believe that in the Lugano experiment, currents ran through the fuel, caused by the three phase coils and the high voltage difference between them and because the Al2O3 tube starts to conduct at temperatures higher than 1000C.
    Older designs have additional electrodes, which also were used to run currents though the fuel. See Rossi’s Italian patent.
    Obviously currents through the fuel can also be initiated by induction or RF, so I agree this is something that surely must be investigated.

  • Montague Withnail

    I think Robert Godes has always said that the waveform is the secret.

    Also Peter Hagelstein makes a big deal about Dennis Lets’ experiment, where he stimulated a long self-sustained excess heat using lasers at defined frequencies.

    • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

      frequency domain were different (MHz/GHz vs THz)
      but it is true .

  • http://www.e-cat.co.nl Paul Harmans

    “There was an element missing… but one which they were receiving “by accident.” Without it, they would have never seen cold fusion.

    They were in the basement, and in this basement there were other things going on they did not know about. Now I’m going to tell you something that you’re going to see in the news soon. The potentials are, at this moment, that you’ll see it within two years… perhaps even sooner. Two things were going on in the room. One was a mild magnetic field, created by a transformer on the other side of the wall which has now been removed. But the other thing, the more profound thing, was that there were a number of oscillations in the megahertz range being created by a piece of equipment that had nothing to do with their experiment in the basement. Call it residual oscillation if you wish, but it was there, singing a song.

    They saw cold fusion because, dear ones, cold fusion requires ultrasonics. When you add the ultrasonics to the chemistry that you expect, watch what happens. Here’s a hint for those who are scientific minded: you’ve got to have two ultrasonic generators for this to work. It was an anomaly in that basement to have these oscillating frequencies beating against each other, almost in unison but not quite, to give remainders of the nulling which added to the chemistry, and spoke to it in a way that created the results of cold fusion. Some of you will know what I am talking about now, and some of you will know it later when it comes out in your news. Watch for it. Ultrasonic cold fusion.”

    The above quote comes from this 2004 article ,maybe Rossi did read it and understand that his experiments needs a specific frequency to come to an cold fusion reaction?
    http://peswiki.com/index.php/Article:_Key_info_inadvertently_omitted_from_Pons_and_Fleischmann_report

    In this 2012 interview Rossi is asked about his radio frequency generator:
    ‘RADIO FREQUENCY GENERATORS —
    In addition to the catalysts, a question was asked about the radio frequency generator that somehow interacts with the reactions inside of the core. Rossi stated this information is very proprietary, but gave a few clues. First, he compared the use of the radio frequencies to martial arts. He claims that the radio frequency generator allows the forces that would normally prevent the fusion process from taking place (Coulomb forces) to work for you, and not against you.’
    http://pesn.com/2012/01/14/9602012_Momentous_Breakthroughs_Announced_During_Anniversary_E-Cat_Interview

    • Red-Z

      Nucleus excitation is well known and can be done using radio frequency
      or ultrasounds. The methods that utilize these effects in spectroscopy are known as Nuclear Magnetic Resonance and Nuclear Acoustic Resonance. Nuclear acoustic resonance is less known, as it is experimentally difficult. Nuclear acoustic resonance can go through several mechanisms (quadrupole etc.) and the corresponding frequencies are different. There is a patent (US) by Cook (I think) claiming LENR by acoustic means.

  • georgehants

    Good to see this page as I do know that Peter has for a long time been interested in the subject.