Statement From Andrea Rossi on IH Patent Application (Update: Document Provided)

The following statement was submitted by Andrea Rossi. I have not yet been able to find the patent application he refers to.

Today I have been informed that IH has again made another patent using my name as the inventor and my invention, to make a patent assigned to Industrial Heat, without my authorization.

This new patent is copied from my E-Cat 1 MW. Now, beside any forensic consideration, let me underline this: WHEN THEY HAVE TO PAY, THEY SAY MY E-CAT DOES NOT WORK, BUT, THIS HAVING BEEN SAID, THEY APPLY FOR ANOTHER PATENT WHEREIN THEY DESCRIBE A REPLICATION OF WHAT I HAVE MADE AND SAY THAT IT NOT ONLY WORKS, BUT IS AN INVENTION OF THEIR PROPERTY !!!!

And they do this now, with the litigation in full course, wherein they say that they say that they do not pay because I did not teach to them to make the plant that they have just patented, declaring that it works, to the USPTO of the government of the USA!

I leave to the intelligence of your readers any consideration on the issue.

Warmest regards to you and your readers,

Andrea Rossi

UPDATE: I asked Andrea Rossi if he could provide a reference to the document the document he referred to and he sent me this PDF:

http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/R_123621412_3.pdf

  • Roland

    The notion that there’s a 250kW E-cat is mistaken in this regard; there’s a 250kW module with common plumbing and power supplies that contains 15 individual Cold Cats that are conformed to make low temperature steam for industrial purposes.

    Four modules constitute a 1megawatt plant. In this special case there are additional modules available onsite.

    • wpj

      That’s not what others say.

      They (inc MFMP people) says it’s the layered wafer design from his patent. Comments on this in the current MFMP test.

  • C. Kirk

    I like Edmund Storms opinion on this….. http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2016/04/apr-12-2016-very-short-interview-with.html “The basic question is whether Rossi found a way to cause significant energy to be made by LENR using NiH. All of his actions make sense If we assume he was successful. “

  • Brent Buckner

    Perhaps Rossi hadn’t transferred all of the know-how involved in running and maintaining the 1MW plant (or simply didn’t trust anyone else to do it). He might then have continued babysitting the testing to get a successful ERV report whereupon he could readily claim IH was in breach upon non-payment (in this hypothetical scenario Rossi wanted out of the License Agreement without being established as the first to breach it).

  • HS61AF91

    Here’s another jab at publicity, this time politically, as relates to oil, commenting on the Opinion Piece by By Doyle McManus, Los Angeles Times, Published: April 11, 2016, titled “Horseshoes, hand grenades and Sanders”
    There is a ‘miracle’ for whichever candidate to embrace on a guaranteed
    trip to the White House. This ‘miracle’ will render obsolete the
    proposed Keystone XL oil pipeline from Canada to Texas, and all other
    mass oil providing modalities, (see the Leonardo Corporation Press
    release: MIAMI, April 6, 2016 /PRNewswire/). In it you will see, a
    energy catalyze-er (the e-Cat), performing the ‘miracle.: … “According
    to the independent third party report, over the 352 day test period,
    the E-Cat consistently generated energy at a rate in excess of six (6)
    times the amount of energy consumed by the plant.” … Proven and
    verified. See for yourself! The candidate that ge

    • cashmemorz

      Publicity. Besides the publicized litigation between AR/IH, how else to get the E-Cat specs out in the world to change its opinion of coldfusion/LENR. Word of mouth can be very slow for what AR wants to achieve. Any one in this forum that knows how to publicize such a thing as E-Cat in a massive way?

      • HS61AF91

        I’d just keep massively as possible repeating, over the internet in commentary, on any energy related article (they are few and far between in the Stars and Stripes Newspaper which I read as retired Air Force). Perhaps you have other communications outlets that you could add comments to, to energy related subjects. I have a Google search that provides any record that says ‘Andrea Rossi’ which snares articles like the Falls-Church News Press item below. Keep hitting the 1 goes in, 5 comes out ‘miracle’ which really happens, and that will provide publicity. The more that do this, the merrier!

      • Mats002

        I encourage, follow and help with info (for what it is worth, not much probably πŸ™‚ to experimenters in hope to asap get out a working DIY kit. I am very pleased with the developments over the last two years:

        – The number of experimenters increases
        – They are very skilled and open for communication
        – The first DIY kit is on market, still no repeatability though
        – The engineering challange seems to be solved, now everything is about finding the recipe
        – Some runs have given both radiation and excess heat but need repeatability still

        So this development have so far been rewarding!

        If/when we have repeatability I am sure we will see an avalange of spreading in a massive way!

  • cashmemorz

    Another take on what IH means by “unsubstantiated” could be: unsubstantiated by the world common opinion on cold fusion/LENR. Without a positive world consensus or opinion that cold fusion works, there is nothing that can be done to effectively market anything connected to LENR. It is a steep slope towards acceptance. Before a mass market can be penetrated this hurdle must be overcome. That IH and AR know the specs of E-Cat are solid it is only so in house.

    • DrD

      That couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s actually going to be the reverse.

      • Michael W Wolf

        As usual in life, the truth lies somewhere in between, more than likely.

  • SG

    So, a COP of 11 isn’t good enough to sell product? I think IH has at least some of the know-how, which is why their PR statement is such bunk.

    • Brent Buckner

      I don’t think we have on record whether or not that patent filing (that includes statements respective of testing) relied upon items made and tested completely by IH without any Rossi activity involved. For a time Rossi was Chief Scientist of IH; perhaps IH made filings stating that IH had done things that included activities performed by Rossi acting as Chief Scientist.

      • SG

        IH made the filing, not Mr. Rossi. So, it is IH representing to the USPTO that persons with skill in the art could make and use the invention. If IH could not substantiate the COP of 11 at the time, then they should never have made the patent filing.

        • Brent Buckner

          Yes, but I believe that IH would be entitled to rely on the reports and activities of their employees – and Rossi may have been amongst those employees at some relevant point.

          • wpj

            But wasn’t the filing date after everything had broken down between the 2 of them and the papers filed in court…………………….. and when they said that it could not be substantiated?

            • SG

              It was a series of filing made by IH over the course of years. When they say that they can’t substantiate Mr. Rossi’s claims, they are either lying to the public, or lying to the USPTO. There is simply no other way around it. I offer little sympathy to the argument that “Mr. Rossi made us do it.”

              • Brent Buckner

                What if Rossi had been Chief Scientist of IH and responsible for the testing that was reported in the patent?

                • SG

                  Then you would have to show that Mr. Rossi is currently the Chief Scientist at IH. Because last I checked IH has not filed a request to intentionally abandon any of the applications that they filed. So they are continuing to represent to the USPTO to this day that the technology has been substantiated, while denying to the public the same.

                • Brent Buckner

                  I don’t know what IH’s responsibilities to the USPTO would be in the case that they had filed something relying upon an employee, and have been unable to subsequently substantiate without the participation of that employee.

                • SG

                  The applicant, the applicant’s attorneys, and the inventors all have a duty of candor with the USPTO. If they have not been able to substantiate the claims, and publicly proclaim as much to the world, then they should not be pursuing the patent applications that they filed, and should intentionally abandon them.

              • psi2u2

                It depends which claims they are referring to. There is a lot of grey area here, it seems.

                • SG

                  But that’s the thing. IH made no qualification about which claims. They just said claims, and the statement is very forceful in the way they worded it. They can’t have it both ways.

                • psi2u2

                  I agree. This vagueness in the statement makes you wonder what they are not saying.

  • psi2u2

    Lugano fuel showed transmutations, something seen in many other LENR experiments. Did Rossi spike the ash from all of these experiments?

  • psi2u2

    When I asked Bob Greenyer what he thought of Rossi’s summary of the ERV report, he immediately replied giving a formula (which I didn’t memorize), saying, under conditions of this reaction, a COP of 50 was quite possible. So it may not require this kind of arrangement…..

  • Frank Acland

    Rossi is acting as if the contract is void now, so in his mind he might not feel restricted from commercializing in the IH assigned territories now. If Leonardo tried to do this, IH could certainly try to stop it via the courts, maybe via a different suit.

    • DrD

      Very true and AR might further justify ignoring the license by maintaining that the license doesn’t cover E-Catx (quark), as he seems to.

  • Brent Buckner

    One comment from Fabiani in that interview was that Rossi prepared all the fuel charges. Perhaps IH will claim that it did not receive all associated know-how.

    • HS61AF91

      that clever Doctore, way to go!

  • DrD

    Except hat isn’t what he said he was using. In the end It was four 250kW E-Cats.

  • georgehants

    Where is the report showing a COP of 50, Rossi guaranteed that it would be published soon?
    Who is stopping the publication?
    With the report published, IH have to show in court that it is a fraud by Rossi and prove it.
    Is Rossi a fraud, all the while the report is not open to scrutiny then nobody knows.
    Sod the court case and money, where is the report to prove Cold Fusion?

    • DrD

      His attorney.

    • Roland

      Both IH and Leonardo have copies of the report. Rossi has stated that he will release the report (though he does not state that it won’t be redacted) when his lawyer gives consent.

      Rumor has it that we have a couple of weeks to go, which really isn’t much different from our expectations before the litigation began.

      P.S. The Lugano Report proves LENR through the isotopic analysis, whatever the wrangling about the precise COP; you could read it and explain it to the wife and workmates…

      • georgehants

        Roland, thank you, the Lagano report is irrelevant as it has not brought Cold Fusion into the World acceptably.
        The court case is again irrelevant, making money out of a discovery that belongs to the World is a sideline of no importance.
        Only Cold Fusion and it’s benefits, freely available to those that need it most is of any importance.

        • DrD

          Unfortunately George that is how our world works and we can’t duck that one.
          The Jury will decide that outcome, not us or the public. In which case he’s right in not releasing the report (to us yet). In anycase, as interesting as it will be, it’s said many times, it wll not
          do what you want. I doubt even the court can do that and AR is right,
          only mass manufacturing and distribution will achieve that and that
          needs funding of course which AR will provide from his own resources now. Inventions like this don’t grow on trees, they need financing and lots of it.

          • georgehants

            DrD, again thank you, you say —-
            “that is how our world works and we can’t duck that one.”
            Then it is time there are 10,000 comments on page demanding that society changes.
            Two and a half thousands years since Greek democracy etc. and we have advanced nowhere.
            While people just accept the insane Status Quo then humanity will remain in the same Dark Ages that have never ended.
            Only Cold Fusion and it’s free availability to everyone should be important to us, not conforming and discussing within a obviously corrupt and faulty system.

            • Roland

              Read Steven Pinker…

              Or history…

              • georgehants

                Roland I need to read nothing, I live in this World and am perfectly capable myself of deciding right from wrong.
                I make my own decisions.
                Many thanks for chat.
                Best

                • Roland

                  Contrary to popular opinion ignorance is not bliss. Steven Pinker makes a very compelling evidence based case for humanity’s steady moral and ethical evolution over the last 3,500 years and, indeed, uses ancient Greece as a starting point.

                  Reading’s good for you George…

            • DrD

              Actualy, I think I prefer it to the free for all that we see in many areas of the world but good luck to you.
              EDIT: I refer to our legal system.

        • Roland

          As Rossi has repeatedly stated, and your estimation of the impact of the Lugano Report substantiates this, only commercial products will make a dent in public opinion.

          Even then it’ll take some time before the meme changes for the general populace as witnessed by concepts that should have dropped from the common currency of understanding long ago, even the flat earth concept isn’t completely dead yet.

          If you’re waiting for ’60 Minutes’ to affirm Rossi on prime time TV don’t hold your breath.

          • georgehants

            Roland, I am assuming I am talking to intelligent people, you are giving reasons as if they are unchangeable, I am saying the comments on page should be about changing the system not working within it.
            Slavery and colour prejudice at one time was regarded as normal and most would have thought anybody saying the system must change as crazy, well I am crazy.

            • Roland

              I agree George, you are crazy but in a nice way.

              • georgehants

                Roland Ha, thank you and again thanks for cathartic chat.
                Best

        • Jarea

          George you are our voice. I fully agree with your view.

        • kdk

          So, what’s going to keep some corporation or the government from snatching up the patent, sitting on it and prosecuting anybody who tries to make one. while they wait to get as much out of oil and gas as they possibly can? Releasing the information “out for everybody” at this point in time, is going to result in the above scenario, unless somebody decent has the patent. That’s my worry anyway.

  • Roland

    None whatsoever outside the IH territories and, as I’ve suggested previously, given that Leonardo can attract either enough money or sufficiently strong partners Rossi could, potentially, ignore IH entirely and issue fresh licenses to better partners for IH’s territories and simply carry on with business; after all this is exactly what corporations in the modern world do as a matter of course.

    Make piles of money now, deal with the litigation later from a position of strength.

  • DrD

    But it seems IH did and that’s all that matters here.

    • Alex Fenrick

      Not true at all DrD. To a judge, a jury or any investor….a conflict of interest like this makes all the difference. There is a reason they call it “independent researcher”….unless this individual is truly independent of the inventor…it is impossible to trust the contents. No judge or intelligent investor would trust a tester with ties to the inventor…you can ask any lawyer on the planet…that’s just plain common sense even before you get to the court room….

  • jousterusa

    I think IH and Cherokee never had $89 million to give him, so they tried a) competing with him and b) suing him to give themselves some time and jury-rigged justification for not paying him. They IH and Cherokee) are a pair of professional thieves, IMHO.

    • John Littlemist

      It was Rossi/Leonardo who sued, not IH/Cherokee.

    • DrD

      It’s certainly curious that they (IH) seemed to have no intention of starting the trial.

  • jousterusa

    I’ve been trying to reach Frank Aclan to advertise my book, POWER, but all his emails bounce me. Frank, would you please get in touch asnd give me the rates. I have already sent the ad and want to get started!

  • LCD

    If the ecat is exactly what we think it is he was never a loser. If it is what we think it is 89 million was not enough and suing is the exact wrong move. Lots of things don’t make sense.

  • builditnow

    I agree with Bob Higgins of MFMP, his statement here.
    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/2997-Statement-From-Andrea-Rossi-on-IH-Patent-Application/?postID=16747#post16747

    I
    would add that after spending 26 years in Silly Con Valley, having been
    through the Dot Bomb era, it is always a cat and mouse game between
    investors and inventors. It’s an unwise investor who gives up all power
    to an inventor and it’s an unwise inventor who gives up all power to an
    investor. Both generally don’t work out for the invention, investor or
    inventor. I’ve seen it close up and personal.

    My guess is that Rossi has withheld some of the secret
    sauce to make sure that Industrial Heat actually pays up the $89
    million according to the contract. He wants a court to decide so that
    both parties are forced by the court to deliver on the contract. This
    could be a smart approach. Neither side could be telling the “exact”
    truth to us, just yet. Expect some spin at this point.

    My guess is that the court will quickly
    decide that Rossi has to provide the full secret sauce and Darden has to
    pay the $89 million to Rossi and follow the agreement in the future. Regardless of how “honest” Darden might be, he could be pressured by bigger players and perhaps Darden would want it to end up in court to take the pressure of him personally, Industrial Heat or Cherokee.

    This could also be Rossi’s way of making sure that the contract is firmly adhered to, his invention gets produced. A positive viewpoint, I agree.

    • SG

      I view this as plausible. Let’s hope that Mr. Rossi first insists that the $89 be placed in escrow, so that a neutral party can decide whether or not to release the funds.

    • timycelyn

      Cherokee may have a cloud over their future anyway, and be short of cash……

      http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=127890

      • Roland

        Exactly.

        • timycelyn

          Yes – my apologies, that was where I got the link from, I should have mentioned that…

      • pg

        Is it safe to assume that the information has been sent to Rossi on the JONP?

      • Mats002

        Any Idea what they paid and then invested in Charleston Asset?

        • Roland

          There’s at least one other property, near Denver if memory serves and according to a post on another thread, that’s also in trouble and has tied up assets since before the 2008 crash.

          The remediation business can turn sour in a hurry if your estimation of the problem is inaccurate in any way.

    • Roland

      Having read Bob Higgins’ analysis, twice to be sure I’ve understood him properly, he has apparently not read the filing documents for Rossi’s legal action, nor given any credence to the sequence of events whereby IH invested $11.5 million and in, in turn, how IH induced Woodford to invest a further $50 million.

      The investments by IH were predicated by two demonstrations of the technology, both of which contractually required a measured COP>6 in order to secure the financing on offer. That, indisputably, IH made investments of, sequentially, $1.5 million and then $10 million should permanently lay to rest any talk of COP>2 and yet here’s Bob still beating that very dead horse.

      In reiteration of a previous post, the statement of claim filed by Rossi’s attorney states that the EVR report in Rossi’s possession proves a COP>50 when the contractual requirement is only COP>6. I defy anyone here to find an attorney that will stipulate that their client has done anything more than provide the lowest standard of proof required to meet the contractual obligations in question before a court of law.

      I think we can safely assume that Rossi’s attorney isn’t a moron and that a filed statement of claim pivotal to Rossi’s case is fully supported by the EVR report and a number of first person witnesses.

      Further to this point, the old cold cat is sustaining a COP>50, there are three more iterations of the technology that, from what as arrived here by largely through Mats Lewan’s efforts, offer substantially improved COPs over the E-cats under test for the EVR.

      There is are no compelling reasons, to date, to assume IH has $89 million and a number of historical antecedents with Cherokee’s past business dealings in property remediation to suggest that they don’t have the money.

      If the statements of claim regarding the statements made by IH regarding the ownership of the contested IP and IH’s attempts to file patents to which they have no intellectual claim and IH’s attempts to delay the project to avoid having to complete the contract are truthful, and there is no reason at this point to doubt these claims as any of them that the court and/or jury finds to be false will scuttle the case, Rossi is not interested in settling this case, or in receiving IH’s money.

      Leonardo is a trust whose beneficial ownership and financial strength are a black box. Ask yourself this, with a proven COP>50 technology, and fresh generations that exceed this number, and capital costs that crush every known power technology how much money could you raise?

      • DrD

        A very fair assessment I believe. So what is IH’s game? Why did they seem to want to delay it indefinitely? Why risk losing the contract?

        • Roland

          IH had acquired IP for a COP>6 technology for a total cost of $11.5 million which they, apparently, promptly started shopping around as theirs.

          Completing the test, granting Rossi maintained a COP>6, would require a further investment of $89 million for what they seemed to view as no particular improvement in their position. It now seems likely that they don’t have the money to complete the contract and it’s possible that they never did have their own money to meet this obligation.

          I would posit that IH dramatically underestimated Rossi in a number of regards.

          IH didn’t expect radical improvements to the underlying technology which would leave the IP they had access to stranded.

          IH completely misread Rossi’s potential response to their peddling the IP as theirs.

          IH failed to note Rossi’s resolve and tactical skills in shielding the evolved IP from them.

          IH failed to anticipate the impact on their plans to raise funding by Rossi discussing his progress, on this forum and others, with evolved designs and IP IH had no access to. I used to wonder why Rossi was so public about his progress, especially since Christmas, the rational is much clearer, to me, now; counter-pressure.

          In short IH expected to acquire, read steal, the IP for peanuts and for Rossi to quietly fold when pressured enough.

          The contract has been at risk from the moment that IH made claim to other parties that they owned the IP, from that point forward the die was cast and they were committed to a course of action that, in hindsight, was monumentally shortsighted with no way back into Rossi’s good graces.

          • Argon

            @Roland your explanation is very close to what I have started to think also. I would just like ask your opinion on what do you think about, in addition what you wrote, Rossi changing his mind about license conditions on course when learned about new things about his technology. Maybe he just didn’t like this way better cats to be covered by license, and in the other hand IH see no worth paying 89m$ just COP6 technology after Rossi seemingly had better in Leonardos possession. There was many weak points for Rossi in license agreement if it would cover also COP ~50 and quarkx technologies (no good temination period/clauses, no revenue sharing model etc.)

            • Roland

              IH had already made irrevocable decisions, and engaged in actions that breached the contract through their business practices, before Rossi had the insights that led to the HotCat, E-cat X and the Quark.

              My read is that Rossi formed a fresh opinion of IH from the moment that IH claimed to own the IP; an action which predates the start of the year long test.

              • Argon

                Ok, makes sense. Thanks. I was not very much aware of timing of these events.

                • Roland

                  The court filings make for an interesting read; there’s a link in Mats Lewan’s recent thread.

          • DrD

            It does seem to explain a lot.
            So one might expect that IH has been building a manufacturing facility and must be close to launching since they will be aware of AR’s plans?
            What do you think about the conspiracy theory that IH have been induced to delay and discredit LENR?
            It did make me wonder if people like Bill Gates knew something we don’t when projecting beyond 15 years.

            • Roland

              I don’t think IH has the capabilities to go into the manufacturing business, starting with financing.

              If IH were inclined to go down that path it’s now closed to them because they’ve committed to IP that’s obsolete.

              Gate’s prognosis is a simple extrapolation on the costs of renewables; the current ratio of investment in renewable electricity generation to traditional methods is 2:1 with a bullet. In 15 years no one on the planet will dream of building a coal, oil or gas fired plant or a new dam with, or without, LENR.

              • DrD

                So the big remaing question is:
                DID AR, sign away his future IP, especially E-CatX, with electric/quark included and, if so, will he get out of it.

                I think the concensus here is still split on that one.

                • Roland

                  The contract does require that he reveal the IP for the current E-cats, but those provisions really aren’t enforceable till Leonardo receives $89 Million; should the contract be completed through payment of monies due we should expect that this issue would be settled by the jury as part of the resolution.

                  I predict, going out on a limb here, that IH has no ability to pay and no means to raise the funds under current conditions and even if they were to attempt payment Rossi would simply appeal to a higher court while continuing to build his business as though IH doesn’t exist.

                  Bill Gates is a master at this…

  • Jag Kaurah

    To me the legal battle is a side show.

    Since the start of the legal battle, Rossi has a strong incentive to speed up production and supply of his units – that is a positive for the world. Initially, he may only manufacture and sell in territories not in dispute with IH.

    What are the strong incentives to move quickly?
    a) His reputation;
    b) Money;
    c) Proof to the courts handling the legal battle that his technology is good;
    d) Get USPTO to grant his remaining patent applications;
    e) Prevent competitors getting a march on him;

    I am sure the great community here can think of other reasons Rossi has to move quickly

    It would be great to find out how we could help him move faster. I would like to help with manufacturing, marketing, funding… but have not contacted him on it. Best if Frank can find out on our collective behalf. Together, we can surely help Rossi and with that our poor little suffering blue dot.

    • SG

      Also, Mr. Rossi is in his sixties. As strong and keen of intellect as he is (which is very impressive, at least to me), he doesn’t have 15 or 20 years to be patient and mess around, like allowing the 1 MW plant to just sit there for a year. He wants things to move, I believe, because his remaining time with us is relatively short.

    • Axil Axil

      Rossi has always believed from the very beginning that a LENR product on the market is the only evidence that science, the public, and the government will accept as proof that LENR is real. IMHO, this is absolutely true. Any effort to keep the LENR product off the market is an effort to suppress LENR as a valid energy source.

    • bachcole

      It sounds good, but just exactly how does Rossi work faster? Does he ask all 33 of his employees to put in 16 hour days? Given the rewards, I would think that they would want to put in longer hours. I also worked in Silly Con valley for a few years, and I knew youngish engineers who owned airplanes. Just think what sticking with and boosting Rossi inc could do for one’s fortunes.

      • Jag Kaurah

        I know how inventors think – the biggest weakness is to want to keep improving forever and they get carried away. They are happy and comfortable inventing, insecure and afraid in unfamiliar tasks. So they avoid them as long as possible.

        At some point they have to say “this is good enough to market” and switch to a production phase.

        This change is what I am hoping comes about in Rossi.

        Whatever the COP, the e-cat in the market would be an unbelievably large phenomenon.

  • Axil Axil

    Intellectual property (IP) is a term referring to creations of the intellect for which a monopoly is assigned to designated owners by law. Some common types of intellectual property rights (IPR) are trademarks, copyright, patents, industrial design rights, and in some jurisdictions trade secrets: all these cover music, literature, and other artistic works; discoveries and inventions; and words, phrases, symbols, and designs.

    Unless the USPTO recognizes these discoveries and grants Rossi a patent for his LENR specific related product discriptions, those descriptions are not rightfully considered IP under the law and therefore not covered by the licence agreement between Rossi and I.H.

    • SG

      As much as I respect your technical and scientific analysis, I simply have to disagree with you on this narrow construction of IP. For example, IP includes trades secrets, pending patent applications, and the like, which are recognized under the law. Pending patent applications can be licensed, transferred, used as collateral, and the like. They exist by law. The rights have not fully matured, but they are considered as IP.

      • Axil Axil

        I am not well versed in the legal system and I am grateful for your tutelage.

        What is your take on this…Since the USPTO does not consider LENR as a valid technology, LENR cannot produce IP. Therefore the reference to IP in the LICENSE AGREEMENT(LA) is not valid legally.

        Only non LENR technology such as boiler design and heat transfer can be considered IP and therefore subject to the LA.

        • SG

          I don’t think that view has much strength either. The USPTO has been granting LENR patents in the past few years to the likes of SPAWAR and NASA. The outright refusals to even consider LENR patent applications of yesteryear no longer apply. Is it still hard? Yes, unfortunately, yes. It is a travesty what happened in the suppression of LENR, not only by the USPTO, but by the scientific community. But the situation seems to be improving.

          • Axil Axil

            How does a court determine if a LENR pending patent application is valid as IP unless the USPTO recognizes the technology and grants the patent. Is all pending patent applications considered valid a priori under the law?

            • SG

              Patent validity is a question pertinent only to granted patents, because with pending applications, the claims are still malleable, and therefore, no way to adjudge their validity in view of the prior art. But that doesn’t mean that patent applications are not intellectual property, because of the reasons mentioned above.

              • Axil Axil

                It all makes sense, thanks for the time.

                • SG

                  Of course. I contribute what I can here. I also appreciate your contributions.

                • DrD

                  A bit late but that unmentionable site gives:
                  “Intellectual property (IP) is a term referring to creations of the intellect for which a monopoly is assigned to designated owners by law.[1] Some common types of intellectual property rights (IPR) are trademarks, copyright, patents, industrial design rights, and in some jurisdictions trade secrets:
                  all these cover music, literature, and other artistic works;
                  discoveries and inventions; and words, phrases, symbols, and designs.”
                  So, it’s not just patents.

        • Omega Z

          Yet the USPTO is and has been granting patents on LENR/CF to Government agencies. The is even a code category for it. The patents applied for by Industrial heat specify LENR/CF. Not by name, but by the coding. Any patent inspector will know this.

          • DrD

            Can you give an example, because I haven’t found one yet and that category doesn’t mean anything other than that’s how they list it.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Yes, the Wright brothers flew for five years before the
      world took notice. It’s the physical invention that counts.
      https://www.nps.gov/akr/wrbr/learn/news/images/6AFDC452-1DD8-B71C-0704CF93DBA7C15D.jpg

      • builditnow

        … and the Wright brothers only gained sudden massive traction when they finally flew to mass crowds near Paris, resulting in full front pages new across Europe, instant hero status, little to nothing mentioned in the US until they also flew over similar crowds in the US some months later.

        Rossi could expect a similar reaction if he demonstrates his reactors doing something spectacular to mass crowds. Something fun, like, generating steam to power a steam turbine boat and generate the electricity to supply the 1/50th electricity for control and large advertising lights, sail around some populous area like New York or San Francisco, take on passengers and keep it up for weeks on end without refueling. Signs saying “Cold Fusion is here, get your local congress person to push through approval. Don’t let Cold Fusion get squashed yet again.” πŸ™‚

        • SG

          It is an interesting idea. Tesla essentially did the same thing at the World Fair in 1893–a giant showcase.

  • SG

    I view Mr. Rossi as holding the advantage as well, although IH is going to fight as hard as they can to make him out to be the bad guy (wait until you read their response in court as I predict it will be scathing).

    Mr. Rossi can focus his production in Europe, India, and other markets while the battle plays out in the U.S.

  • Rossi Fan

    Wait, the skeptics are not going to let the matter go this easy. Rossi claims he got $10M big ones from IH. Now he claims IH got $60M big ones from some company in the UK. Someone has some explaining to do. We are talking a roughly $100M heist here.

    Regarding SEC and Industrial Heat Company search on this site shows the last filing in 2013 and only a single item: statement of ownership. It is safe to assume that IH is not a public company. There would be many more filings if it were.

    http://www.sec.gov/edgar/searchedgar/companysearch.html

    This appears to be a private matter. Someone fleeced someone. If Rossi scammed IH then IH scammed other investors an order of magnitude greater.

    Whether or not the e-cat works could be a criminal matter.

  • Michael W Wolf

    IH purposely were deceptive in their last public statement. Apco is involved. case closed. There is
    something very fishy about their statement. I mean how easy is it to say
    the 1mw ecat reactor does not work? As rossi claims? What do you claim?
    Could not substantiate the technology? So they can’t be talking about
    the reactor they claim to have built and tested at 11COP. People call us
    gullible? The skeptics want to pick apart everything Rossi says and
    have not cracked his shell as of yet. But IH? they can’t read between
    the lines? Please. They are either agents or blinded by hatred. IH made 2
    vague public statements and we’ve already shown they have contradicted
    themselves. IH gets cracked after 2 statements. I am with Rossi until we
    catch him lying like IH. I want to see what they will say under oath.

    • SG

      IH’s statement was calculated to hurt the community supporting commercially viable LENR. It was a huge bone thrown to the pathoskeptic crowd. As long as LENR is a curiosity only and not capable of revolutionizing the energy sector, then safe. Once you talk commercially viable LENR, and based on what we know, e-Cat has the most evidence in its favor, then trillion dollar interests are on the line, and everything gets twisted and spun like a political spin room.

    • Eyedoc

      I do keep a shred of hope that this is all a show, to get publicity for LENR…. but everything is getting so APCOesque (can that be an adjective now?) that I worry.

  • US_Citizen71

    LOL! He is eccentric enough and likely available.

  • Brokeeper

    AR must have stoked up a lot of camp fires in the container to make the customer happy.

  • asey

    Problem for Rossi might be with licensing IH for Americas and China and losing any profits from this areas even with new designs of E-Cats

    • Axil Axil

      Let me know if this opinion is wrong…

      Rossi has a technology called Self Sustain Mode(SSM). Rossi uses one reactor called the activator to power 15 satellite reactors which are unpowered but identical to the activator.

      I.H. has applied for a patent of the activator which was based on the Lugano test results. They must beleive that the activator works since they patented it along with Rossi.

      Rossi gave I.H. the IP for the activator which has a COP of 1.5. He has not given them the tech for SSM which pushes the COP to over 50. I.H. wants the IP for the SSM mode. Rossi has not received the patent for SSM and therefore it is still R&D info and not IP.

      I.H. will not pay Rossi the 89M until they get SSM.

      What does Rossi IP mean?

      Rossi has one patent based on the Lugano Hotcat. Rossi was preparing 204 other patents and these may have been submitted to the USPTO but this information is not IP until one or more of the 204 patients have been approved by the USPTO. IP does not include patents that have not been granted. I.H. does know how the 1 MW plant works to some level of detail because they built it. They have the right to patent that info in Rossi’s name and site themselves as co-inventors. They do not have the rights to other designs that Rossi still has patent pending or has not yet submitted and that Rossi has not yet revealed to I.H.

      When Rossi properly holds back pending info, I.H. shall not connect that act of revelation of R&D data with the agreement to base final payment solely on the report of the ERV. But let the court decide.

      • Brokeeper

        I think you’ve got it. IP is ongoing process whereas the $89M is not.

      • clovis ray

        HI, Guys
        Axil, what wrong with scenario, I/H wants to A.R.’s first commercial E-CAT,
        they want to see it work, they bring in the ERV, to make sure everything is on the up and up, they both agreed on his ability to collect the real time data he and everyone was satisfied, that it worked as advertised, so sill not sure if it was ready for the market, hence the 1 year test, if it performed well, they would pay a payment of 86 mill, so the test was made, with Dr,Rossi keeping his kitties in control, and they performed excellently. when there was no payment after the test was concluded, I/H was in b o c, end of story, they lose everything it would seem to me, but what do i know, smile.

        • billH

          The only reason I can see in running the 1 year test to it’s conclusion
          and then appear to claim it’s not functioning as expected is that it works after some fashion but it’s not altogether reliable. If you look at the logs from the test you will see that there are several instances where one or more of the reactors were down. If the COP during the first month was less than 4 I can see no reason why the test would have been allowed to continue since it was destined to fail. Conclusion, the test may have finished prematurely because it was no longer possible to meet the terms of the contract. By my reckoning the test should have lasted between 360 and 390 day, not 352.

      • wpj

        So how come they claim 11.4 in the “patent”, which appears to be the 24h test of the MW reactor.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        But if the court would decide that IH must pay the 89M, AR could not withhold his IP a lot longer. If his objective had been to keep the IP, he would have been better advised to go without the money instead of filing a lawsuit.

        • Karl Venter

          I agree Andreas
          Rossi wins — he is in bed with IH and all Ip to IH
          Rossi loses– he does not get the 89m but has ip and has control and will get new investors if he has a purported Ecat x

      • Brent Buckner

        Generally, trade secrets are regarded as IP. That’s specifically the case in the License Agreement (http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.2.pdf ) – see for example the Recitals (the first “Whereas” paragraph).

        • SG

          Pending patent applications are also commonly considered within the totality of the meaning of IP. Although the rights haven’t matured, there is a priority date, and a pending right.

      • Eyedoc

        I think you are very close except for the last 3 sentences;)

      • Omega Z

        Should the patent be granted, the patent is retroactive to the filing date.

        • Axil Axil

          If the technology is not valid, it cannot be patented and therefore cannot be considered IP.

    • clovis ray

      hi, Asey,
      THEY NO LONGER HAVE ANYTHING, ZIP, NADA NOTHING, THATS E-CAT RELATED.

  • Gerrit

    I think there are more fitting actors. Better leave it to the professional casting directors

    • US_Citizen71

      Al Pacino? ; )

  • US_Citizen71

    So you are saying Rossi is mutant with special powers!?

  • Gerrit

    The story would become even weirder if MFMP would produce the irrefutable proof that the thing is actually working.

    Who should play Bob Greenyer in the upcoming blockbuster ? How about Elijah Wood ?

    • Andrew

      Share the load Frodo!

    • Michael W Wolf

      Tom Hanks would have been great a few years ago.