The Different E-Cat Approaches of Leonardo and Industrial Heat

We may be getting close to some important revelations about what cold fusion (in the form of Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat) can do, but it’s a time of increasingly high tension as we wait for the report of the 1MW E-Cat Plant to be delivered. Yesterday the countdown clock I had running on the site ran out and I’m not going to try to make another guess!

Andrea Rossi insists that there is nothing that will prevent the ERV (Expert responsible for validation in the 1-year 1MW E-Cat plant test) delivering its report. The big question is: what happens when that report is delivered?
If the report shows that the E-Cat can clearly and safely produce copious amounts of energy while consuming very little input energy and small amounts of inexpensive fuel over a period of one year, then that will be very significant news which would have important implications for the world.

If the report is delivered to Andrea Rossi and Industrial Heat, then they will have to make a decision about what to do next. Here are some possible options:

Andrea Rossi has said that there will have to be agreement between all parties involved about what is released from the test. These parties, I would assume are the Rossi/Leonardo, Industrial Heat, the customer who was using the energy produced in the test, and the ERV.

1. Release the report in full. This will give the public and potential customers the most information about the potential of this technology.

2. Release the report in part. Andrea Rossi has suggested that there will likely be confidential information in the report, but that non-confidential information will be published on the Ecat.com website. In this case the nature of the content removed will be of great importance. For example, it’s possible the the customer will not want to be identified, since they could be subject to a great deal of unwanted scrutiny. It’s also possible that the ERV will not want to be identified for similar reasons. If the ERV is not named and does not publicly sign off on the document, then its effect will be much less dramatic. With no third party coming forward publicly to verify the report, it will not be seen as being very credible.

3. Not release the report publicly at all. It’s possible that the report will be considered by all parties to be confidential in total, and perhaps only available to potential customers under NDA. This would help Leonardo/IH continue to operate largely out of the public eye and away from the gaze of competitors, but it would also leave the general public in the dark about what cold fusion can do.

Of the options above, I would consider number 2 the most likely outcome, but probably there will be negotiations between the parties about exactly what is contained in the report, and when and how it will be released.

As important as this report is, I would contend that the whole of the future of cold fusion does not depend on it alone. Andrea Rossi in recent days has been emphasizing that he is planning to give an important news conference in Sweden in June. It’s significant, I think, that this conference will be in Sweden because this is Leonardo Corp’s territory. Andrea Rossi yesterday confirmed that Industrial Heat has the exclusive licence for the E-Cat in the USA (where Rossi works), and it seems that Rossi could not give a press conference on his own in the USA without the agreement of Industrial Heat.

What will the press conference be about? My guess is that he will be announcing something to do with the first industrial E-Cat X plant, and I am thinking that the first customer will be Hydro Fusion with whom Andrea Rossi has been collaborating closely of late. (A few weeks ago, Rossi said that the first E-Cat customer is based in the UK; interestingly while Hydro Fusion operates in Sweden, and the principles are Swedes, the company is registered in the UK).

The Leonardo/IH approaches seem to be very different. While Industrial Heat has issued a few very carefully crafted and understated statements regarding their activities in the LENR field (barely mentioning Rossi and the E-Cat), and the potential of this technology, Andrea Rossi blogs daily about his work in progress has been very clear about his desire to massively deploy his E-Cats around the world and bring about an energy revolution.

What could account for these different approaches? Probably there are lots of reasons that we are not privy to, but I think we can see that the personality and ambition of Andrea Rossi accounts in part for his approach. Rossi does not want to be just an inventor — he sees himself as both an inventor and (more importantly in his eyes) an industrialist who can realize the dream of Nikola Tesla of making infinite energy available for all. Industrial Heat, on the other hand, seem to be focusing on using LENR to solve the problem of pollution — they have never made any statement about making infinite amounts of energy available, or even in making energy much less expensive.

I would like to thank Torkel Nyberg of Sifferkoll.com for publishing the map at this link which shows the different E-Cat licensing territories. One thing I find interesting is that Industrial Heat has licenses for the parts of the globe which are the biggest fossil fuel producers: North/South America, Russia, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. This might suggest that they are concerned about treading very carefully when it comes to upsetting the powers in government and industry which are dependent upon traditional energy sources for power and revenue.

How things will play out is impossible to know right now, but it does seem to me that there is some divergence in approaches on the parts of Rossi and Industrial Heat here. I’m not sure what IH thinks about Rossi’s approach (or vice versa), but I don’t expect Rossi to slow down in pushing for speedy production of his E-Cat X’s, and it will be interesting to see what he announces if the press conference in Sweden as it goes ahead as planned.

  • Omega Z

    The granted patent which is about the reactor design. There are at least 2 other patents in process submitted by Industrial heat with Rossi listed as inventor and assignee. However, I can’t locate 1 of them at the moment.

    As to the fuel components, you will find them listed in patent applications of Many other LENR players. Most seem to list half the element table.
    If there is a recipe for the fuel, probably one would need to look under copyrights.

  • Omega Z

    I would bet IH has members on the Board of Directors. It’s simple logic. Would you invest millions in a company without representation. It’s no different then having a large percentage of shares of stocks in a Corporation. You get to put people on their board of directors. That’s how they monitor their investment. As to Rossi, he will get royalties on every E-cat sold regardless who manufactures them. Anywhere from 2% to 5% of the wholesale price.

  • Omega Z

    In the 1 year test, Rossi was not compensated as he was compensated with the original agreement. Running the test was part of that agreement.

    Those working with Rossi(His Team) and the materials was financed by Industrial heat as they are funding “ALL” the R&D including the Ecat X/Quark.

    As to the IP, It belongs to Leonardo/Rossi. Not my opinion, just facts based on additional Patents submitted info. Submitted by Industrial heat- Inventor Andrea Rossi- Patent “Assignee is Andrea Rossi”.

    In return for the R&D Funding, Industrial heat holds both manufacturing and distribution rights for their designated market area. Rossi and additional licensees through various agreements hold manufacturing and marketing rights to all other areas.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Rossi’s answer to Frank’s question about number in Rossi lab is very discouraging “3 and pretty good too”, is very discouraging. The unlimited resources from IH are gone.

    • Frank Acland

      I guess it depends on who the team members are. Three bright heads could do a lot.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        I still believe Rossi is far ahead with LENR research, I just think it discouraging that more research resources are not flowing to him.

        • Nicholas Chandler-Yates

          I think you will be surprised who comes out of the woodwork when LENR finally goes mainstream. There are a lot of big companies that have surreptitiously filed LENR patents in recent years, so i suspect that Boeing/Toyota/etc have teams working on LENR in secret but won’t come forward until after it becomes mainstream.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            I hope you are right.

    • Brent Buckner

      Perhaps Leonardo is in line for a payday based upon the ERV report and thereafter Rossi might increase staffing.

    • Ged

      Not necessarily. I work with group of people, but only 3 are part of my lab. So if you asked me the number of people in my lab, I’d have to answer 3 to be accurate, instead of the many dozens whom I actually work with in collaborating labs/departments/etc. There are different payrolls for Leonardo and IH, more than likely, and Leonardo could be considered having had a grant from IH to collaborate on the technology (since IH bought some of the IP). Apparently, IH can now produce their own E-cats as a consequence of this collaboration, but the people directly under Rossi’s payroll and Leonardo’s roster may still just be 3 (as it has been for a long while, I believe).

      • Omega Z

        I believe Ross had 5 at 1 time, but the 1MW plant required more to build it. It also needed 24/7 monitoring for the test.

    • deleo77

      I agree on it being discouraging. Yes, sometimes small teams are more effective. But 3 people (I assume Rossi includes himself in that number) is eye-catching. It makes me think that IH is putting the bulk of its resources in other places.

      • Omega Z

        IH has always had a minimum number of people involved with the core technology. Only 5 or 6 involved directly with the 1MW plant that was under 24/7 test for a year. The more people involved at that level, the more chance of people leaking criticle info. But overall, there are a couple dozen involved making future plans and arrangements.

    • Omega Z

      Bernie, This is a new team for the E-cat X. This has actually been indirectly stated on JONP by Rossi prior to the completion of the1 year test.

      Rossi’s previous team(Which was larger) is likely still involved with the Lt 1MW plant making improvements that probably do not require Rossi’s direct involvment anymore. It would only involve engineering improvments.

      The E-cat X will not require as big a team as the 1MW plant did as it is based on prior technology and does not require 24/7 monitoring.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Sorry, but I see no continued connection between Rossi and the IH 1MW plant used in the year test, and there is no indication Rossi is involved in the IH lab in North Carolina. If I missed something Rossi said that disagrees with above please tell me.

        • Omega Z

          There is nothing left to do with the pilot plant that requires Rossi’s attention at this time They await the ERV report. Thus Rossi can focus on the Quark.

          Andrea Rossi, March 23, 2016
          Frank Acland,
          The low temperature E-Cat too has been evolved during the 352 days of test, due to all the problems we had to resolve, but in a less revolutionary measure, due to the fact that we had to stay within restricted risk limits not to compromise the results, while with the Hot Cat we arrived to the E-Cat QuarkX thanks to our freedom of risk.
          Warm Regards,
          A.R.

          • DrD

            that’s very interesting because I felt sure he emphasized how all production would be based on quarks which conflicted with other statements. I suppose ALL doesn’t mean ALL.

            • Brent Buckner

              I’m sure that Rossi was only writing for Leonardo in that statement about production, not for IH.

      • DrD

        Except he keeps saying there will be no more E-Cat.
        All are now made from E-CatX (quark) which I take to mean also the 1MW plants. Which I agree is a little hard to comprehend. For example the last time he said it:

        Shan Tokley

        March 22, 2016 at 4:33 PM

        Dr Andrea Rossi

        I understand, from what you say, that the E-Cat QuarkX is the E-Cat X further modified and the E-Cat QuarkX is the same, further modified, in a continuous evolution process: am I correct? This means that Hot Cat, E-Cay X will no more be produced in the original form, because what will be massively produced will be the final result of the evolution process: am I correct?
        Godspeed,

        Shan

        Andrea Rossi

        March 22, 2016 at 8:03 PM

        Shan Tokley:

        Yes, you got it all.

        Warm Regards,

        A.R.

        • Omega Z

          There is still the Low temp E-cat.
          It is the Hot cat that has evolved to the E-cat X to the Ecat quark.
          Similar technology optimized for different tasks.

  • Brokeeper

    Some may not be old to all.

  • Ted-X

    The positions of IH and Leonardo Corp. may fall down like a house of cards at any moment, as soon as somebody (most likely in the so called Third World) will quietly solve the issue of the pre-treatment of Nickel and will declare Rossi’s patent invalid as not providing sufficient information to reproduce the invention, Gentlemen, a patent not providing sufficient information to reproduce the invention is invalid. Every patent attorney knows that. The unsuccessful replications confirm the lack of validity of Rossi’s patent. Sorry, but the things may develop this way.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      And if you have a perfect patent you run the risk of it being sequestered.
      https://ecatsite.wordpress.com/2012/02/27/belgian-lanr-patents/

    • Omega Z

      A patent must provide sufficient info that those skilled in the art can replicate. Several have already obtained excess heat. Should someone skilled enough to make it work merely proves enough info “was” provided that someone skilled in the art was able to do just that. They just validated the patent.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        yeah, like the first transistors.

      • Bruce__H

        A patent is a guarantee of protection in exchange for making a process or invention public. Rossi must divulge the secret “additives” in his fuel so that someone skilled in the art can replicate the effect using the same materials and procedures. I don’t think he has done that has he?

        Rossi can’t maintain that certain parts of his process are secret and at the same time patent them.

        • DrD

          I think that only means that those parts aren’t protected. Patent law is a minefleld, it keeps the lawyers employed and comfortable.

        • Omega Z

          Bruce,

          If 1 skilled in the art can obtain excess heat, that is all that is needed.
          Rossi makes no claims that you will obtain the same results he does nor is he required to do so. As to Rossi’s patent, read it and determine exactly what was patented. Everyone focuses on the fuel…

          • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

            if there is a secret recipe to obtain more energy, then anyone discovering it later can claim a patent on it.

            if you believe in patents, you have to patent all, asap, basic process, improved process, alternative process.

            anyway patents today mostly slowdown innovation, and damage even the owner.

            • Omega Z

              Alain, Did you notice that Rossi’s granted patent wasn’t published until just a few weeks before it was granted. It was kept in the dark by Rossi paying an additional fee. The patent period was also extend by over 600 days due to delays by the patent office.

              Even tho not public, his IP was still protected, but there is a trade off. Anyone who used his IP during that time can’t be punished for infringement. However, they are required to cease and desist upon it being published or they can be charged with infringement and possibly to the original filing date. Also, Rossi has said over 60 patents have been filed. Probably also in the dark.

              As to secret recipe. Like others, you focus on the fuel which was almost like a footnote in the patent. The patent wasn’t about the fuel, but the device. The E_cat Reactor design…

      • Ted-X

        I think that there is also a condition for the invention to be commercially useful. A 2% excess heat is not really commercially useful, although, I agree, it can be debatable.
        —————————-
        In my opinion, there is no secret catalyst, it is just the pre-processing of nickel which makes the difference. Presence of traces of carbon (for surface carbonylation and perhaps the formation of a small fraction of volatile nickel carbonyls) and the cryogenic pre-treatment of nickel (combined with mechanical “pounding” of the particles; compare the papers by Carpinelli in Italy for some clues) might be what makes that difference. The temperature needs to oscillate to create nickel nano-particles “in-statu nascendi”. My friend with his crystal ball confirmed it 🙂 He is right in 95% of the cases 🙂
        ———————————————————–
        The chemical processes at the conditions of LENR are governed by the kinetic and phase-equilibrium, with very simple chemistry. Complex catalysts are excluded at these temperatures. Aspen or ChemCAD modeling would be very useful to analyze the interconversions/interactions, although alloying transitions might not be in the Aspen software as yet.
        ——————————-
        Somebody just needs to do that pre-treatment. Commercial cryogenic services are available at a very low cost; they are used by the mechanical shops to change the structure of alloy-based and carbon steel tools, to make them harder than from the tempering process.

        • Omega Z

          You’ll find many patented items that have no commercial value. Further more, If your spending millions a year for electrically produced heat, 2% can be the difference of make or break for many businesses. 2% is commercially viable

          As to Rossi’s patent, if you can obtain any excess heat, it’s good to go. He is not required to show you how to optimise it. But note, even if you replicate Rossi’s fuel precisely, you will not get the same results. Because like most, you are blind and can not see.

          Have you read the patent. If not, you should. Then determine what was actually patented. Here’s a clue. It was not the fuel composition…

        • DrD

          There is no requirement for a patent to be commercially useful. I have quite a few and that issue never arises So 2% It is not debatable.
          Where did you get 2%.
          It’s atleast 600% according to his specification and in reality, the newer E-catx may soon have an infinite COP, supplying all it’s own input energy so the terms “excess heat” and “COP” become a bit meaningless.

        • psi2u2

          “I think that there is also a condition for the invention to be commercially useful.”

          To get a patent. I’m not an expert, but based on what I *have* read this is just not so.

  • clovis ray

    true bill, but we don’t know what was in the agreement-contract, he may have obtained the rights to anything found, while working on it, i know i would have if possible, they may have just thought they had the rights, to the x-cat, and like all good vc’s tried to take advantage. and was set strait about who owned what. you better believe I/H will not lose their hold on what they have, that being a hand on the golden goose, and you better believe that Dr. Rossi knows who owns that goose.

  • Zeddicus23

    I know it was published in 2011 but assumed that people could read that for themselves. The point was to inform those who may have started following the Rossi saga after 2011 and so may not have been familiar with Ampenergo, as well as to remind those who may have forgotten, some of the other possible key players since I have not seen these names mentioned recently in the constant discussions about Industrial Heat. Any updated information would certainly be of interest but it seems evident from Brokeeper’s response that some of the names mentioned are still involved, although we still don’t know all of the details.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Well, I’m thinking about the full analytical package that has to be compiled. The mass spectral analysis of the ash.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Pardon me. I just wanted to get a little off topic thought down before I forget it while we’re waiting:

    Maybe the reaction could be followed by following the disappearance of lithium-7 hydride by infrared emission spectroscopy. The
    remaining lithium-6 hydride (that would be slightly blue shifted from the lithium-7 hydride) could be the internal standard. Maybe (a lot of maybes here) some sort of window that is transparent to these IR regions could be put into an E-Cat X quark.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/13750414_Far-_and_Mid-Infrared_Emission_Spectroscopy_of_LiH_and_LiD