ECW Orbo Testing Thread — Week 4 (New Power Pack Arrives)

Today is the start of a new week, and we have a new system to test, so it’s a good time to start a new thread.

For reference:
Week 1 thread
Week 2 thread
Week 3 thread
The Google document started by Ged which summarizes key information from testing so far .
The Spreadsheet with the terminal readings from the ocube
The video posted by Steorn showing some of the inner workings of the Ocube

Today is a start of a new week, and we have a new Orbo system to test which arrived today — courtesy of Steorn. I am told that what I have is the inside of Steorn’s ophone. See the video below to see what they have sent me.

The size of the potted section of the pack is 38 x 98 x 13 mm. The weight of the pack, including the 9 Volt battery is 98.8 grams.

 

Here’s a video showing the setup for the test I have started this evening.

A new spreadsheet for this test has been started here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UBIA4JTDb_kBwoytR9LP7OP7tH63yUeiPn2kKye4frY/edit?usp=sharing

Here are some comments from Shaun McCarthy regarding the recharging characteristics of the orbo packs:

“Its really not a linear relationship, the energy contained in it is very non-linear, its more of a step function. It has domains, so it might sit at a voltage for a long time, then make a jump when the domains click into place. Most people who test it expect it to be a cap with a long slow rise, but it tends to go up in steps, that’s because its not actually a capacitor its a domain structure!”

Below is a video of a Skype conversation I had with Shaun McCarthy today — I am sorry about the really poor quality of sound and video. I just pointed my tablet at the screen as we talked and shot the video. The sound is very poor, so please let me know if you have any questions about anything we discussed.

March 4, 2016

With the new Orbo pack showing little sign of life at the moment, I’ve started a new long-term experiment with the Ocube. I charged it up at ports U1-U2 to 4.71 V and put reference voltage circuit on it using two 9V batteries and a 1M Ohm resistor (When setting up I mistakenly put on a 1K Ohm resistor instead of the intended 1M Ohm. I realized my mistake at 9:37 am and replaced it with a 1M Ohm resistor. these changes are now reflected in the spreadsheet). Then I placed a 2.2K Ohm resistor across U1-U2. I’ll be updating the old spreadsheet with the progress of this test here: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SmmDLw9-g_Mamtk7qloWEeWNacHwEBpXxdwdTXnAZpc/edit#gid=0


New photo by Frank Acland / Google Photos

March 12, 2016

Because the cell on o1-2 had been losing voltage, I decided to try to charge it up using a 5V DC USB power source. After about 3 days with a 2.2k Ohm resistor in the circuit, I noticed that the 5.17 V on o3-4 had returned. I then tried to boost the voltage some more on o1-2 using a 22 Ohm resistor. Below is the video of a test I did this morning. I had to cut it short as I had to leave the house for the day.

A new thread has been started here: http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/03/13/ecw-orbo-week-6-testing-thread-new-life-from-power-pack-new-testing-approach/

  • Frank Acland
  • OM

    How to calculate impedance of the voltmeter (R1).

    1) Measure the voltage (V1)
    2) Measure the voltage with R2 shorted. (V2)

    V1 / R1 = (V2-V1) / R2

    R1 = R2 * V1 / (V2-V1)

    This assumes, that the impedance of the voltmeter is high relative to impedance of the battery.
    R2 may have any value, but it is better to choose it to satisfy V1 = V2 / 2.

    http://s13.postimg.org/w70k390gn/media_a02_a0269bcd_d0a4_4c66_bffa_ca2088ebba3b_p.png

  • OM

    How to calculate internal resistance.

    1) Measure the voltage with Rload disconnected. (Vemf)
    2) Measure the voltage with Rload connected. (Vload)

    (Vemf – Vload) / Rinternal = Vload / Rload

    Rinternal = Rload * (Vemf – Vload) / Vload

    This assumes, that the impedance of the voltmeter is high relative to Rinternal.
    Otherwise, a more complex calculations are required.

    Generally speaking, Rload may have any value, but it is better to choose it to satisfy Vload = Vemf / 2.

    http://www.technologyuk.net/physics/electrical_principles/images/internal_resistance_01.gif

  • FC

    Good morning, Frank.

    I’m watching your new discharge test and I am puzzled about the fact that O1-O2 remained pretty much stable overnight. I assume that the DC source was connected all night and still is now. Is that correct? Thank you.

    • Frank Acland

      Yes, DC circuit was charging all night with the resistor off o3-4, and it continues to be attached.

      • FC

        Thank you.

        The test is finished now and lasted between 52min and 1h 12min (assuming that 15:34 is a typo and the start time is 5:34; and also assuming that the finish time is between 6:26 and 6:46).

        The energy input was between 100 mWh and 139 mWh (assuming an average O1-O2 voltage of 4.47V over the duration of the test).

        The energy output was between 105 mWh and 145 mWh.

        Therefore, the net energy output was between 5 and 6 mWh.

        This is substantially less than the previous test due to a higher energy input caused by a lower voltage at O1-O2.

        • FC

          Whay did O1-O2 remain low through the night? Was it held down by the primary as it was recuperating from yesterday evening’s long test?

          By the way, the energy input from the end of yesterday evening’s test to the start of today’s test was in the order of 600 mWh.

          • DrD

            Hi FC, I was just puzzling over that aswell (O1-2) remained low over night. Based on yesterdays performance where it reached 4.84V, I’m surprised.
            It does seem to work much better (sustaining output current longer) when the primary (O1-2) is about 4.8V, not surprising as Shaun said it should be 5V to generate enough field.

            • FC

              I was going to tell you before that I can’t wait for Steorn to get rid of the input, but in the last moment I deleted that part of the comment.

              Well, now I’m writing it. This is becoming so complicated that we will never come up with a clear and concise result. Not only are the units complicated to start with, but they don’t work as they are supposed to. So I can’t wait for the day when we only have to deal with the output, as originally intended for the advertised Orbo products.

              • DrD

                True. I think Frank (us included) persevere because it’s all we have and It’s an interesting challenge.

                • FC

                  Exactly. 🙂

                • DrD

                  The other “challenge” is what went wrong, assuming it was ok when Shaun checked it, was it the potting compound or something in the shipping or –?

              • Frank Acland

                If you look in the test I did this morning, at one point the voltage on o1-2 rose.

                • FC

                  Yes, I saw that. Strange, isn’t it?
                  Was it an error of the multimeter?
                  A consequence of the dynamic interactions between the cores?
                  Who knows.

                • DrD

                  Yes, it’s odd. I think it is in an unstable region, if only we could get it up to 5V (Iknow — it’s just hope full thinking).

                • FC

                  It may just be a matter of leaving it charging for a full day or two.

                • DrD

                  Possibly, it’s very much a waiting game.I have to leave for a while now.

                • Frank Acland

                  Me too, back this afternoon

                • DrD

                  4.09V/4.38V without/with bias. I suppose we just have to be patient. Any news from Stoerm? Probably not as it’s weekend.

                • Frank Acland

                  Yes, just decided to see what might happen if I removed the circuit. The result was a sharp drop — I wonder where the voltage went?
                  Not much new from Steorn. Last I heard they were getting ophones ready.

                • DrD

                  It was being pulled up by the USB supply (the reading with the bias on wasn’t the real voltage).
                  For example if you shorted the 22 ohms you might see 5V (FORCED) onto O1-O2 or if the Orbo “wins” the USB will get pulled down to some intermediate voltage. but thats a bit extreme.
                  You seem to be doing what I was thinking only I was wondering about halving the 22 Ohms (you went in the other direction with the 18V/1Meg). I didn’t dare suggest halving the 22 ohms as I know some are worried about overdoing it but it might accelerate the recovery.

                • Frank Acland

                  I’m trying a different tactic now by putting more Volts on o1-2 with a 1M Ohm resistor. So far it seems to be holding at about 4.08 V with 25 Volts. I might add another battery to see if we can push it a bit higher.

                • DrD

                  Yes I noticed that.
                  It doesn’t seem to have been behaving very consistently. It did well yesterday after the long rest.

                • Frank Acland

                  Yes, and SM says that’s typical for how Orbos behave. He said it’s more like a stepwise charging pattern than a smooth gradual one.

                • DrD

                  Right, just what I thought when i noticed the improved output yesterday when it reached 4.84V. Only I thought Shaun had said >5V. I assume 5V would be better still, right now we seem back on no mans land..

                • DrD

                  haha, 220 ohm on o3-4, that will kill it.

                • Frank Acland

                  Yes, maybe, but I think we should give it a workout.

                • DrD

                  I would love to know what went wrong. I wonder if Steorn have any idea yet. We all seem to agree it doesn’t appear to be the regulator in this unit. It’s as if there’s a leakage path across the primary. Did you try measuring the resistance across the surface of the filler? If you get a reading of a few 10’s of Meg Ohm or less, that would explain it.

                • Frank Acland

                  I get a reading of overload if I try to measure resistance across the surface of the block in every direction.

                • DrD

                  ok, sothat is normal, no fault there

  • OM

    Guys, you are doing it somehow wrong. It pains me to look at this.
    Research must be carried out consistently and meticulously.
    1) Take your high-impedance voltmeter, measure a known voltage through
    a known resistor and calculate the impedance of the voltmeter.
    2) Measure the voltage on terminals O1O2, O1O3, O1O4, O2O3, O2O4, O3O4.
    3) Measure the voltage on terminals O1O2, …, O3O4 using the same voltmeter with a known resistor (or resistors) in parallel.
    4) Calculate the impedance and the EMF of the voltage sources O1O2, …, O3O4.
    5) Try to guess the device circuit diagram.
    6) Only now you can begin to explore the device internals…

    • FC

      Thanks for your concern, OM. We did that one day after receiving the test device.

      By the way, I think we got O1-O2 wrong. They may be oriented the other way around.

      http://www.health-answers.co.uk/phone_3.jpg

      • OM

        How do you explain this?

        quote:
        ——————————————————-
        Frank Acland ECW Admin OM • 8 days ago

        o1-2 +3.659 4.65
        o1-3 +2.14
        o1-4 +2.17
        o2-3 -1.46
        o2-4 -1.48
        o3-4 -0.004
        ——————————————————-

        • OM

          Excuse me, I have copied the post with my adding (4.65).
          The original post is:
          ———————————–
          Frank Acland ECW Admin OM • 9 days ago

          o1-2 +3.659
          o1-3 +2.14
          o1-4 +2.17
          o2-3 -1.46
          o2-4 -1.48
          o3-4 -.0.004
          ———————————–

          Why do we see O1O4,O1O3,O2O3,O2O4 voltages when the parts of the circuit are isolated from each other?

          • FC

            As you’ve probably noticed, we’re all here scratching our heads to try and figure out the reason why there appears to be a leak from the secondary core and also why that leak increases when O3-O4 is shorted through a resistor. One of the hypothesis we are entertaining is that there is an unintentional contact between the primary and the secondary cores. That could possibly explain your question. Or the other way around: your observation could confirm our hypothesis. 🙂

            What’s your opinion?

            • OM

              We see 2.17V on o1-4 and 1.48V on o2-4 directly from voltage source or we see this through some internal resistor?
              Do you know the answer?
              In the second case the voltage value may be distorted.
              Is there a way to calculate the internal resistor value, if so?
              Yes, it is.

              To understand where the leak is, we should try to guess the circuit. And I think that it is not leakage.

              • FC

                According to Shaun there is no resistor.

                As to guessing the circuit from those readings, I’ll leave it in your hands. You’ve done a pretty good job before. 🙂

                • OM

                  According to Shaun there is no direct connection between circuit parts… but…

                • OM

                  Try to act on the plan…

                • DrD

                  I think you will do well if you can add more circuit details than the guys already did because we are not just dealing with passive components and as FC mentioned, there seems to be leakage current flowing even though there is supposed to be no direct connections between the two cell stacks. According to Shaun, the primary cell is supposed to immerse the secondary cell in a field (O1-O2 which should be >5V). It might be inductive or capacitive or something else, plus the characteristics of the electret cells are a bit of a mystery. We believe there is a dc-dc converter and regulator feeding the output (O3-O4 =5V). What do you think.

                • OM

                  Yes, I also think that there is a dc-dc converter (O3-O4).
                  We need the voltage and impedance for the rest OxOy.
                  Then we can make some assumptions about the circuit.

                • DrD

                  Do you mean you don’t believe the circuit we already have? By all means you should do it, I’m curious how you will derive impedances from only DC voltages.

            • DrD

              Snap haha, I think we just said similar, gotta go now though

              • FC

                No worries. Catch you later.

          • DrD

            Because Franks meter has a very high impedance which means it can detect potentials from nearby fields,especially if the “inusulator” isn’t very good, which is one theory that might explain the leakage from the primary circuit.

            • OM

              Do you know the impedance of the voltmeter?
              The value, please.
              You have measured those voltages with a known resistor as a load?

              • DrD

                its mentioned some where but from memory, I think at least 10Mohm.

                • OM

                  It should be checked.
                  And we need to calculate the impedance for OxOy.
                  Only then can we draw conclusions.

                • DrD

                  OM, You must assume it is correct at 10Meg or look it up in the comments.10Meg is high enough to eliminate any errors except for the very high resistance terminals which we suspect may be faulty anyway.
                  But how will you calculate impedance from only DC resistances? You can’t unless you know some very clever secret.
                  Anyway, the main objective is what Frank is doing which is to try to get it working and verify that it can or can’t generate it’s own power and for that he already has been told what the terminals are.

                • Frank Acland

                  Here’s the manual for the meter: http://site.ldbepurchase.com/Manuals/VC97.pdf

                • DrD

                  Thanks Frank.
                  OM, The manual confirms 10MegOhm on the ranges that were used.

          • OM

            This should be verified / confirmed.
            And we need to calculate the impedance of OxOy.
            Only then can we draw conclusions.

            • DrD

              I think we have confidence they are correct so try them, see what you get.
              But how will you know for example that it’s a regulator output from knowing only the impedance and how will you measure impedance from only DC resistance measurements.

  • Frank Acland

    The video I made this morning is posted above. Unfortunately I had to leave before the Cell on o3-o4 was depleted.

    • FC

      Thank you, Frank.

      Excellent job, both with the video and with the ongoing test.

      I’m sorry for asking, but regarding the ongoing test, is that really a 22 Ohm resistor across O3-O4? Or is that a typo and the spreadsheet should say 220 Ohm?

      I find it quite amazing that now, with an energy input rate in the order of 50 mW, we’re getting an energy output rate of 1.21 W (if that’s really a 22 Ohm resistor). And since this test has been going on for 2 hours now, that amounts to 2.42 Wh, which is a very respectable amount of energy for this test device.

      • Frank Acland

        Thanks, FC — I am sorry, I was mixing up my resistors. It was a 220 Ohm resistor on o3-4. It’s a 22 Ohm resistor in the DC input circuit. That’s fixed in the spreadsheet now. Thanks for asking the right question!

        • FC

          No worries, Frank. 🙂

          Ok, so the test is finished now. It lasted between 1h 36min and 1h 50min. And the device delivered between 194 mWh and 222 mWh.

          The total energy input during the test was between 99 mWh and 113 mWh (assuming an average O1-O2 voltage of 4.755V for the duration of the test).

          Therefore, the net energy output during the test is between 95 mWh and 109 mWh.

          This isn’t enough to cover for the 5-6 Wh input over the last 4 days or so. But at least we have a workable device again, which is great news.

          • FC

            It’s strange that O1-O2 keeps falling 15 minutes after the test.

            Maybe the charge is leaking into the primary core, now that its voltage is at its lowest level and the voltage difference between the secondary and the primary is highest?

            • DrD

              Very interesting. It would also be very interesting to know what happens if the output power was set equal to the input power of circa 50mW.

              • FC

                Absolutely. That’s definitely something we should do. Although Frank may have to tinker a little bit to produce a ~533 Ohm equivalent resistor.

                • DrD

                  I don’t think it matters as long as he’s within about 5%.
                  I’ll “stick my neck out” and predict that the unit will continue to charge provided that the secondary is above about 4.8V

                • FC

                  You mean that O1-O2 will rise or remain stable, right? That’s definitely probable. But personally, I’m not betting anything on it. 🙂 The unusual interactions between the cores under dynamic conditions and their effect on the unidentified leak introduce a great deal of uncertainty in this device. I’m looking forward to find out, though.

                • DrD

                  Right, and I agree I wouldn’t put any money on it. It’s also clear that even though the secondary cell isn’t connected to the primary cell, it still draws power from it when it’s feeding a load. Transformers do that with ac, it doesn’t surprise me that this happens with DC in fact Shaun demonstrated an ac waveform in the video of the last skype call, I forget which signal it represented now.

                • FC

                  Good point. I was watching the video of the Skype conference again and I think that the blue wave is the output from the chip, while the two flat lines correspond to the primary and the secondary cores. But then again, although the lines appear flat, they may have some noise to them.

            • DrD

              I assume the reason is partly because the step up converter/regulator has intergral capacitance and continues to function unitl it’s charged and/or the primary cell continues to charge for a while. We know the cells are capacitors. I agree there seem to be a problem with leakage aswell because according to Shaun we shouldn’t really need the battery, the primary should supply the bias.

  • Frank Acland

    Now it looks like we could be looking at an April delivery of the report — or later

    Andrea Rossi

    March 12, 2016 at 8:05 PM

    Achilles:

    Obviously the report will be delivered and all this mumbojumbo tango of the obscure forces or suppositions of any kind has no merit at all.

    The time normally necessary for the formulation of a report based upon tens of millions of data collected in one year of test is a couple of months and the test has been completed on the 17th of February. Every person with a minimum kowledge of the matter understands that if the ERV takes a couple of months to complete his work, it is totally normal.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

  • http://www.russgeorge.net/ russ george

    Frank, How about posting a quick reference to your Orbo and O-phone cell testing, something like your countdown Rossi colck. I suggest a simple daily scorecard of where the two ‘O’s” are you could make it graphic by using simple smiley emoticons with :(, ;), & 🙂 as where the score stands… the more smiles the better of course… for example if you are seeing a ‘best’ signal to date of 5.16v holding for 30 minutes that might deserve a 🙂 🙂 score…. It is good to see you sticking with this over the long term… keep up the good work. alternatively perhaps a learned watcher like Sanjeev might be the score-keeper

  • Frank Acland

    Ok I just did another test with the 220 Ohm resistor on o3-4 and had to cut it short because I have to leave.

    Bottom line is that the 5.16 voltage over o3-4 did not drop for about half an hour with the resistor connected. I made a video which I will put up later. Back later in the day. I’ll be on and offline during the day, but the orbo pack will be at home.

    • DrD

      Really? What changed.

    • Sanjeev

      Interesting.
      From 3 mins to 30 mins. Big improvement.

      • Ged

        This is very interesting. It seems your and FC’s thoughts on the output core being disordered and needing recovery are correct. I am still concerned about the drains on the reference core, but induction could do that perhaps. Have to see if it starts outputting more energy than Frank fed in with the DC.

        • Sanjeev

          I’ve speculated so much that I’ve forgotten what I speculated. 🙂

          • http://www.russgeorge.net/ russ george

            ‘There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.’

    • DrD

      I wonder if 01-02 broke through that threshold? I notice the 1st reading this morning was the highest it’s ever been since receipt.

  • Sanjeev

    The last measurement shows that the voltage immediately recovered within a minute. Its close to what we saw in the steorn’s video. However, it may have gone up just slightly above the cutoff, not 0-5V as might appear.

  • Sanjeev

    It seems the voltage booster is working nicely.
    So what is the current flowing into the reference cell? Can it be quantified/measured?

    • Frank Acland

      Based on 5.04 volts (USB output) and a 22 Ohm resistor it’s about 0.23 amps.

      • FC

        Frank, don’t forget that currently the voltage drop across the 22 Ohm resistor is only 0.39V (5.04 – 4.65).

        • Sanjeev

          I did a rough calc. From 6:58 to 7:01, about 1.2 J in and about 21.8 J out.

          Of course, it ate a lot of energy before that. But if it continues to do this, we may find it useful.

          • FC

            Just don’t forget that the energy input is going into the secondary (or reference) core, whereas the energy output is coming from the primary (or power) core. And according to Shaun, the cores aren’t physically connected.

            • Sanjeev

              Good point. The 21.8J can be considered to be coming out of primary only with zero input. But since its a black box, all energy needs to be accounted (to be formal).
              There seems to be a slight leakage from reference to primary (the ref voltage dropped after loading and discharge).

              • FC

                True. Under the black box setup, there’s no way to know whether the energy input is going into keeping the secondary from from draining to an unknown sink or if it ends up in the primary core.

                And given the fact that the drainage from the secondary core speeds up when the primary core is shorted through a resistor, the possibility that there is actually a physical connection between the two cores cannot be discounted, although that alone doesn’t seem to explain the drainage during idle times either.

      • Sanjeev

        I was going to write exactly what FC wrote !
        There is a opposing voltage source in the loop.

        It can be only 0.017 A or it can be zero.

  • Sanjeev

    The problem is its not even working like a Zn-air battery, its dead 🙂
    With all that potting I don’t see any way to get air/O2 in, but you have a point.

    Anyway, your hypothesis can be easily tested by placing a (working) orbo in an inert atmosphere or vacuum. Frank may like to add this test to his list of tests. There is a possibility of energy production via slow reaction with oxygen, so thanks for suggesting it.

  • FC

    In today’s first discharge test with the second test unit, the output was in the order of 12 mWh. Nothing to write home about, but better than yesterday’s almost nil result. Therefore, it seems that the charging mechanism devised by Frank is slowly bringing the unit back to usable condition. Well done, Frank.

    • Ged

      A pleasant surprise!

      • FC

        Hi Ged. I’m not that surprised, to be honest. In fact, I’m a little disappointed. 🙂
        But under the circumstances, I think we can’t complain.

  • FC

    Hello Alex.

    Thank you for your interesting comment.

    Yes, our main focus here has been to try and get enough energy from the test devices to rule out the hidden battery hypothesis. Unfortunately, for different reasons neither test unit works according to expectations. So that approach has become impractical and we’ve decided to focus on characterizing the charge/discharge cycles to try and find similarities/dissimilarities with the behaviour of batteries.

    Regarding the 9V batteries, yes, they have been the main sticking point for most people. We’ve been offering suggestions to Steorn on several alternatives. But we’ll have to wait for the next devices to see if those suggestions work and if they have been implemented.

    • DrD

      Yes indeed, In fact Frank said that they told him that the new nodels don’t use the 9V batteries. They will be selfbiased from one of their Orbo cells. This is the very method used in the one Franks testing right now but it has a battery aswell.

      • FC

        True. We’ll have to wait a little longer to see Steorn’s next surprise. Perhaps they’ll come up with a totally new approach.

    • Alex Fenrick

      Ah gotcha. I am extremely interested to see what alternative Steorn provides to replace the potted off-the-shelf 9v batteries as I find it very odd a company would use Duracell batteries as reference in a device..seems very amateur or suspicious. I know you guy are staying clear of conspiracy and sticking to analysis/research…but I do believe we might have to look beyond readings if Steorn comes up with another odd illogical way to reference voltage other than a replaceable battery or better yet a regulator like every other device in the world that uses reference. I eagerly await to see how they rectify this…

  • Frank Acland

    A bit of a development to report:

    Over the last 2-3 days I’ve had a DC power supply (5V USB output) connected to o1-2 on the Power pack, with a 2.2 k Ohm resistor on the circuit. I just wanted to see what might happen if we got some charge into the reference cell. Now the reading o1-o2 is 4.23 V, and we once again have 5.17 V reading on o3-4, which seems to indicate that Shaun’s diagnosis of the control chip being blown is not correct.

    This still does not solve the underlying problem of current drainage on the reference cell, but we might have something we can do some more testing on.

    • Ged

      So strange. We are still at a loss as to how it was draining, but maybe we can track it down now that it recharged. Interesting the reference charged into the same general range as the Ocube, despite less cores. Maybe that can tell us something about core configuration.

      • FC

        Good observation, Ged. Maybe when Shaun talks about a full Orbo core, he means two in series (or two halves in series), as needed to provide 4.7 V.

      • Frank Acland

        Well I wouldn’t say it’s recharged, since Shaun said it was 5V+ before it was shipped from Dublin. I have applied some more DC and have got it in the 4.7 Volt range, but it is dropping again. I would like to find a point where we can keep it at above 4.5 V with a bias circuit on.

        • FC

          I think that what Ged has been saying for a few days now is that a 5V orbo core has never existed. It is an inadvertent error from Shaun. All orbo cores (except for the half power core, or primary core, in the second test unit) are rated at 4.7V.

          • Frank Acland

            Shaun has been pretty clear that they want the reference cores to be over 5 volts, although we have never seen that with this one.

            • FC

              Right, but as Ged points out, all our observations show 4.7V to be the maximum voltage for our test devices. We’ve never even been able to push them past that level.

            • Ged

              Maybe there is something fundamental not functioning in both the Ocube and the Ophone core. But I can’t guess what it could be. If a DC charger can’t push it above 4.7 V, it’s hard to believe it ever could be. But if something essential is broken inside the core, maybe…

    • FC

      That’s great news, Frank. And a really smart decision on your part to charge the unit. As you point out, the readings confirms our theory that the cores (and the rest of the components) are in good health, but they are draining somehow.

      Now we need to think about how to test it. The problem here is that you’ve probably input in the order of 200-300 mWh with the DC power source. And that’s probably more than we’ll get out by discharging it.

      • Frank Acland

        I think if we can find the input needed to keep o1-2 stable we could do some meaningful testing of the active orbo cell.

        • FC

          Very smart again, Frank. With some trial and error we can find the drainage rate and counteract it by adding some extra juice to the bias circuit. It won’t convince everyone here, I think, but it may be enough to do some testing again, as if nothing had happened.

          • Frank Acland

            Right. That’s what I’m working on at the moment. The question I have is at what voltage do we want the reference cell to be at rest. I think definitely about 4.2 V since that has apparently been enough to activate the primary cell.

            • FC

              As pointed out by Ged, 4.7V appears to be its rated maximum ordered state (which is supported by all our previous observations with both test devices). Therefore, I would aim for 4.7V.

              • Frank Acland

                With a 47 Ohm resistor on the 5V input o1-2 seems to be holding at 4.52 V

                • Ged

                  Sounds like a good point to start some tests. The thrill of science begins anew?

                • Frank Acland

                  Ok, started a new test with the 220 Ohm resistor over o3-4
                  Data on the spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UBIA4JTDb_kBwoytR9LP7OP7tH63yUeiPn2kKye4frY/edit#gid=0

                • Ged

                  Am I right to assume the DC is still connected?

                • Frank Acland

                  yes

                • FC

                  Doesn’t it appear as if the primary core is still too drained to output any meaningful amount of energy? It’s as if, while the secondary core is back to normal levels, the primary core is lagging behind. Perhaps it need more time under a strong bias (i.e. with the secondary core near its maximum voltage) to charge up again?

                • Frank Acland

                  Yes, that’s the way it seems. The primary cell may have recovered just enough to kick the voltage controller into action, but not much more. So it may need more time to recover enough to carry some load for a decent length of time. I think I remember Shaun saying that in optimum conditions this cell might give maybe two hours of work with a 220 Ohm resistor on in a 24 hour period..

                • Ged

                  How are the reference cores still dropping? Especially with DC input. They aren’t supposed to be directly tied to the output core.

                  At this rate, I’d be tempted to say the reference core IS the output core, and we’re measuring the real core or the controller chip.

                • Frank Acland

                  That’s the mystery, Ged — but I’m pretty sure this is not the active cell from all I have discussed with Shaun. I have a 47 Ohm resistor on the DC input.

                • Ged

                  And only 220 Ohm on the output. And we thought the Ocube was confusing.

                • FC

                  I would leave it as it is now, and try another discharge in the morning. Maybe by then the primary will have recuperated a bit more.

                • Ged

                  Seems the best course of action at this point.

                • FC

                  But personally, I would try to bring the secondary as high as possible before going to bed in order to increase the bias to the max.

                • Ged

                  Looks like it recovered from the output induced drop.

                • FC

                  Right, which goes to prove that the drainage rate increases when the primary core is being discharged. Perhaps due to the electric field interaction between the two cores.

                  But I’m not sure we can infer yet that the drain only happens to the secondary.

                • Frank Acland

                  I replaced the 47 Ohm resistor with a 22 Ohm — which should help recharge the secondary. I’ll leave it on overnight.

                • FC

                  Good job, Frank.

                • FC

                  Now, going back to your comment above, Frank:

                  “I think I remember Shaun saying that in optimum conditions this cell might give maybe two hours of work with a 220 Ohm resistor on in a 24 hour period…”

                  That’s 300 mWh per day according to my calculations, after allowing for a 20% loss across the controller chip. This, in turn, is equivalent to an average self-charge rate 12.5 mW.

                  And since Shaun also said, if I remember correctly, that the unit’s average self-charge rate is 40 mW, there seems to be a discrepancy between the two numbers. Unless of course, the efficiency of the controller chip is much lower.

                • Ged

                  It seems like it’s way too big a drain though. How can it be being charged by a 5V source on a 47 ohm resistor, yet be beaten by a discharge at 5.17V on a 220 ohm resistor? Especially when it isn’t supposed to be directly tied to that discharge event.

                  There must be an explanation, but it doesn’t seem like it’s really working at this rate? Though, the new 22 ohm resistor on the 5V DC charger is definitely working to push it higher.

                • Frank Acland

                  Definitely too big of a drain, and that’s been the problem and mystery since I got this. I hope we can figure this out.

                • Ged

                  In theory, we can calculate that unknown drain rate due to your work. That may give us a list of suspects that could operate on the same order of magnitude.

                • FC

                  Don’t forget that the drain rate may be different under static or dynamic conditions, just like the polymer’s resistivity to electron tunneling.

  • Ged

    Uh yeah, one short video, and you don’t need to reverse or correct anything because these “errors” of yours are -irrelevant-. If you wish to exist in your own little world of hyperbole, I can’t help you.