Industrial Heat the Only Remaining E-Cat Licensee?

Thanks to Artefact for posting this Q&A between Gerard McEk and Andrea Rossi on the Journal of Nuclear Physics today:

Gerard McEk February 21, 2016 at 6:26 AM
Dear Andrea, I have some questions if I may, all assuming F9 = positive.

1- You said that IH is licensed to produce E-cats for the Americas and China. Does that also include E-cat X’s (in the future)?
AR: yes

2- Is it right to assume that the rest of the world will be supplied by the Leonardo Company?
AR: yes

3- I believe you mentioned that Sweden will have a production plant for Europe. Do you intend to produce E-cats at more locations in Europe and Asia?
AR: eventually yes if opportune

4- You work strongly together with a jet specialist. Do you expect to test an E-cat jet this year?
AR: yes

So from Rossi’s responses here it would seem that only one licensee now: Industrial Heat, with Leonardo Corp. taking up the rest of the world. We have heard that over the last few years that some early licensees had there licenses bought back The only other licensees I am aware of that were still existing were E-Cat Australia, and Hydro Fusion (in Sweden). But lately Hydro Fusion seem to have become more closely aligned with Leonardo Corporation, as their www.ecat.com website is now the official site of Leonardo Corporation. The Hydro Fusion website (here: http://hydrofusion.com/) states “Being Andrea Rossi’s North European Licensee Group, we play an important role in the commercialization of both ECAT-plants and ECAT-home units.”

E-Cat Australia seems now to have changed its website — now they have this site: https://www.ecat.tech/, and the name of the site is E-Cat Solutions.

So it’s still a bit confusing to me about how all the business arrangements behind the E-Cat work.

  • jousterusa

    It’s amazing to see a megacorporation forming when no one (except a handful) have ever seen a product. I hope to do another CNN story when a device is ready to go.

    • LarryJ

      I agree it is amazing but maybe that is what happens when a truly amazing paradigm shift occurs and you are perceptive enough to see it happening and recognize it for what it is. This is arguably the greatest technological change in our history so normal rules do not apply. Remember that most of the world’s population do not see this happening at all so there is nothing surprising about it to them.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Rossi: “..We also are resolving the issue of the switch on/off in short time.”

    This has been mentioned also before, also by Fulvio Fabiani, but he now confirms it again. It’s very relevant for many applications.

  • DrD

    The one man jet pack suddenly becomes realistic.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Use the heat of the E-Cat X for the jet engine then after
    take off switch over to electricity to charge the capacitor of an
    electrogravitic drive.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye5W28OihN0

  • William D. Fleming

    Tom Darden gave Rossi a US flag which was in the photograph of Rossi with his first E-Cat X patent. That suggests that they are business partners regarding the E-Cat X. If so it bodes well IMO.

  • E-gatto

    Why aren’t Russia and China preparing their own LENR reactor factories yet?
    Couldn’t Parkhomov and Zhong Shen advance their technology over the last year?
    I doubt that Rossi’s US patent could keep Russia and China from manufacturing LENR reactors.
    Same as for TVs, electronics etc., most of the consumers won’t care where or by whom the reactors are made, as long as they can buy them and lower the energy bill.

    • LarryJ

      The replicators are probably still far from producing products.

      They would if they could but they can’t so they wont.

      • DrD

        Which , I believe, is why Andrea plays his cards close to his chest (some are surprised at that) and why he is ready for quick mass production before they can reverse angineer and copy.

  • HS61AF91

    He’s great. thanks clovis for that thoroughly enjoyed reading

  • Sanjeev

    And finally, a little off topic, but involves a cat (hint hint).
    A new player Looking for Heat is all set to launch in UK. http://www.lookingforheat.com/
    Here is their video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UkZIhScsk8

    • GreenWin

      Wait! Did the kid tell the CAT he was… the MAN??? Very FUN!

    • Jonnyb

      Shame I can’t get the phone number to work.

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Agaricus

        To be activated March 1st I would guess.

    • Mats002

      “Ready 2 glow & components” – MFMP Glowstick DIY kit for sale and the number goes to Bob Greenyer? Or some totally new player? Exciting times ahead.

      • artefact

        Mats002, you wrote one month ago: “Our friend Freethinker was first with preparation like MFMP do now and
        he got clear gamma signals which should not be there if only chemical
        reactions occurs in the core. At that point Freethinker disappeared to
        earn some money which I hope was successful.” …

        • Mats002

          Yes good suggestion, but I just found at LENR-Forum this is a baby of Dr Bob, thanks to AlainCo: https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/2789-Dr-Bob-launch-Looking-For-Heat-web-site-for-LENR-Ltd-on-1st-of-March/?postID=14029#post14029

        • Freethinker

          I didn’t go far. Need to pay bills, still have my lab, but it need some tlc. I am working on getting some funds to do more research. But no, I am not about to sell any glowsticks.

          • artefact

            Good luck with the funding – and the bills.

            • Freethinker

              Thanks. Will be posting about it if and when I start up again

          • Mats002

            Hi Freethinker, glad you’re still around! Sorry for asking a dumb question, what is tlc? Also since I think we are close in geography I might be to some help with job/income, just maybe. But that should be discussed in a private forum 🙂

            • Freethinker

              Tlc = time, love & care

              🙂 Thanks for the offer, but I have a decent source of income, however full time.

      • Alan Smith

        Hi Mats. I am one of the culprits I’m afraid. We are not selling the glowstick, or anything like it, but a totally different type of low-cost and re-usable reactor system and all the needful other items to go with it.
        It’s a system that (with the right fuel and the right heater drive) can give fast clear and consistent results without any need for calorimetry. It’s just sensible engineering. We are not claiming any magic, but hoping to enable more people to test and replicate. I am told btw, that is is a little like some of AR’s earlier bench testing systems. But that’s a secret.

        • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Agaricus

          Can’t wait to learn more. Good luck.

        • Mats002

          Hi Alan. The best secrets should be burried openly on the net – no one believes it anyway 😉

          I hope you be a success, large parallell tests within known parameter spaces is a good – and maybe the only – way forward in this puzzling drama. Great initiative!

          • Alan Smith

            Hi Mats.To me the ridiculous thing is that in many cases the people involved are keeping the SAME secrets from each other. And, btw, thank you for your supportive words.

  • Sanjeev

    Interesting rumor:
    Executive summary of the test report can arrive in 12 days. (No sources mentioned)
    http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com/2016/02/feb-21-2016-lenr-executive-summary-of.html

  • Frank Acland

    No, but I’d like to.

    • artefact

      Who not 🙂

  • Sanjeev
  • Jonnyb

    Hi Clovis Ray, interesting, shame that it was looking promising for ‘Cold Fusion’ 20+ years ago and we are still not there, I think this time it will come to pass?

  • Anon2012_2014

    Low oil is more likely due to the carbon caps due to conventional cross substitution away from the high carbon fuels, by solar, nuclear, wind, and natural gas. This will take decades to finish, but the writing is on the wall. If ECAT is proven, oil will drop faster as ECAT will penetrate faster because it [hypothetically] is better than the alternatives.

  • Jonnyb

    Let’s hope so Guy.

  • artefact

    Rossi changed the answere 3!!

    “Andrea Rossi February 21, 2016 at 9:42 AM
    Gerard McEk:
    1- yes
    2- no, Industrial Heat has also other Territories in the license agreement
    3- eventually yes if opportune
    4- yes
    Warm Regards, A.R.”

    • Anon2012_2014

      He changed answer #2.

      • artefact

        I changed it.

    • Gerard McEk

      As Mats Lewan says below: IH may also have licensed Saudi Arabia and Russia as well. Further, Hydrofusion may have a license.

      • Sanjeev

        You are good at asking good questions. Thanks a lot.

        • Gerard McEk

          I was just lucky a few times.

  • Jonnyb

    The Jet being ready for test later this year is the nugget in this posting, in my opinion anyway.

    • DrD

      Me too. It shocked me and this year.

      • Jonnyb

        The fact that oil prices are so low should not stop the adoption of LENR if Anthropic Global Warming is the be believed. The Jet Engine would be another nail in the coffin of Fossil Fuels. Just fantastic really does seem as if a new world is coming.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Yeah, I assume it will be a while before we see an E-Cat jet
      in flight but that will be a real game changer. Virtually unlimited range. Much safer in a crash (no kerosene). Much lighter (again no kerosene). No oxides of nitrogen created in the exhaust.
      PS
      And it will make traveling to APS meetings much more
      awkward.

      • Jonnyb

        I wonder how they will explain that one, but it works, but it can’t must be magic.

    • Gerard McEk

      Yes, for me too. It would be fantastic if he could show something like that.

    • Anon2012_2014

      It’s a nugget. Unproven until shown. I have no idea how an E-Cat X is going to drive reaction mass/air out the back end of an aircraft; and do it for less weight than a kerosene based jet engine.

      Is it going to use some unknown force to drive a turbo fan. Is it going to heat air up enough to drive a power turbine to drive the turbo fan.

      I for one which that Rossi would not make such extremely revolutionary proclamations until he provides a working prototype to a third party lab for validation. Maybe that is already doneand we are getting a validation report in 25 days, but this E-Cat Jet is cart before the horse and lowers credibility.

      It could instead be just the unfiltered musing of Mr. Rossi. I’d love to see it, but I’d love to see incontrovertible proof of any working Rossi device first.

      Sorry for being negative on the Ecat-Jet comment.

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Agaricus

        Have to agree. This claim makes me very uneasy.

        • GreenWin

          Keep in mind Airbus clearly has interest in LENR – likely for aircraft. And both GE Aerospace and Boeing Research participated in NASA’s SUGAR future aircraft concepts. That’s a bit of common ground for LENR turbines.

          • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Agaricus

            Yes, but note that Airbus Industries make airframes, to which they fit engines built elsewhere. Aircraft need power for all sorts of functions other than thrust, and A small reactor – even a thermal one for space heating – could come in very handy..

            • GreenWin

              Good point Peter. See my post above with links to GE/Boeing/NASA study for Subsonic Ultra Green Aircraft Research. I vaguely recall a recruitment effort of this caliber way back in 1998!!!

      • Pekka Janhunen

        “Is it going to heat air up enough to drive a power turbine to drive the turbo fan.” Yes.

        It’s nothing strange. Even fission powered jet engine prototypes were made already in the 1950’s, with all their heavy radiation shieldings. One saves the entire mass of the kerosene tank which is often a large fraction of the takeoff weight. Thus the engine itself need not be lighter than kerosene engine.

        • Anon2012_2014

          Exactly — direct cycle requires air to be sent to a VERY hot plenum supplied by heat from ECAT. How is the VERY hot plenum going to be supplied by ECAT?

          Not impossible, but I question its feasibility based upon the performance snippets we know about conventional ECAT and ECAT-X (light producing ECAT). It won’t be easy regardless and I would like to see incontrovertible proof first of ANY working Rossi device first.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            E-cat X’s 1400 C would be roughly the same what is nowadays used in jets. Turbine blade material is the limiting factor. Also, the engine’s specific impulse goes only as square root of temperature. Even if temperature would be significantly less than 1400 C, one might compensate it by energy density.

            Concerning energy density, Lugano E-cat weighed about 0.5 kg and produced some 2 kW of heat. The same mass of kerosene (0.5 kg) can maintain a 2 kW flame for less than 3 hours. For a 10-hour flight, for example, the equation looks good for Lugano E-cat and should look even better for E-cat X.

            • Gerard McEk

              Yes, Ecat X can have the size of a package of cigarettes and weigh about 300 grams, and produces 20 kW during a year, If I remember all details correctly.
              The question might be if he can efficiently heat-up air in a very short time.

              • Pekka Janhunen

                Yes, and probably one has to make the engine longer than kerosene engine. But that doesn’t necessarily increase weight much.

              • Axil Axil

                Air not required, see post above.

                • Gerard McEk

                  Yes, using e.g. a CO2 closed loop is another option.

            • Anon2012_2014

              Not sure how to transfer the heat efficiently to the working fluid (air). A gas turbine has the working fluid heated directly by combustion. In an Ecat, or for that matter a direct cycle nuclear fission reactor, we have to pass the working fluid (presumably air) through a sufficient ECAT/working fluid heat exchanger. Further, the efficiency is compromised unless it runs at very high temperature and has the large expansion ratio. So I am imagining a thermally white hot ECAT somehow being kept stable in temperature and then arranged to transfer heat to the air without melting (failing) any components. I think this engine is going to relatively heavier than a gas turbine or an air-cooled piston engine; although the fuel presumably weight is much less. I think this may come if ECAT works, but certainly not in 2016. I would much prefer incontrovertible proof on the basic ECAT as this ECAT-Jet is an order of magnitude more ambitious.

              In the best scenario, Rossi releases a positive report in March and ships commercial ECAT-X or Hot-Cat or 1 MW ECATs in 2016. At that point his company is established with revenue for this kind of heavy and ambitious R&D, or he licenses it to a company like Pratt and Whitney who is more able to handle the engineering challenges. All of it starts with the proof and then the delivery of first commercial units of any kind. Jets can come latter.

              I would like to have a personal jet that goes around the world for no carbon burn. Better is a personal spacecraft.

              • US_Citizen71

                With the claimed electrical output of the Ecat X you could put a scaled up version of this in the front pumping air in: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__60329__Dr_Mad_Thrust_90mm_12_Blade_Alloy_EDF_1250kv_3700w_8S_.html

                Further compression if needed can be done by compressor being turned by the exhaust, result in less power needed to turn the compressor if it is needed at all. This would translate into lower temperature being needed from the exhaust of the Ecat X. That would allow thrust control as well.

                If you are going to put a multi-megawatt energy generator on a plane that can reportedly generate a useful amount of electricity it makes sense to go directly from kilowatts to horsepower.

                • Omega Z

                  Jet engines have a compressor on the front end. It is powered by turbine blades on the back end. X-cat provides the 900`C heat instead of kerosene flames.

                • US_Citizen71

                  I understand how turbo jet engines work. Thrust control is through the amount of fuel burned. Unless Rossi plans to base his design off of the indirect cycle nuclear jet engine he won’t have thrust control as the reactor won’t heat up or cool down fast enough. But if the coupled compressor stage is replaced with a large EDF, thrust can be controlled by the power sent to the EDF without the weight and complexity of using the general design of the indirect cycle nuclear engine.

                • Omega Z

                  OK, So the cigarette sized fingerlings would transfer heat quite fast to the compressed air much like burning fuel. Their small size would also be well suited for fast ramp up/down of the temperatures. Possibly in seconds dependent on the power applied. Also, utilizing 1000’s of these would provide additional output/thrust control.

                  These are the issues Rossi is addressing and this would be well suited for inline replacement of the combustion chamber. The next issue is durabilty as that chamber is very turbulent. Will ceramics work or will Rossi need to use Tungsten.

                • US_Citizen71

                  I agree with everything you wrote. I just do not believe seconds will be fast enough for the change of thrust for flights of the average airliner and middle of the road pilots. During flight at altitude it would be quick enough. But, at takeoff sitting with the brakes on while the engines take 10-15 seconds to reach max thrust will place heavy wear on the braking system and tires. During landing thrust will be middled and then need to rapidly go to minimal in order to slow down, if the aircraft needs to abort the landing the thrust will need to go to maximum as close to instantaneous as possible for safety so that the plane can climb out. It’s takeoff and landing that make me think another method will be needed beyond throttling the reactors up and down.

              • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Agaricus

                I still prefer the idea of a helium airship in which the heat component from e-cat augments lift, while electrical output drives propellers and on-board systems.

                An armchair and a glass of wine in the observation lounge is infinitely preferable to something from the ‘mini-bar’ and a view through a small plastic porthole, even if the airship is limited to a mere 150 kph or so..

            • Omega Z

              Pekka,

              Many don’t realize that jet engines are just superheated 900`C compressed air. If Rossi’s X-cat can operate at about 1500`C, the 900`C superheated air should be possible.

              • DrD

                I had a the same thought. I believe he only works at 1400 deg C because of material constraints.

        • Alan DeAngelis
      • Axil Axil

        Think single stage to orbit

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-stage-to-orbit

        Holmlid is producing hydrogen molecular fragments at close to the speed of light. This tech does not need air to function. It might be possible to take off from a runway and go direct to Pluto in short order with the space plane completely unmodified, that is, without staging.

        • Anon2012_2014

          Axil,

          Any hydrogen fragments (protons) going at close to the speed of light, say 0.8c is 1 GeV have a tremendous amount of ionizing radiation and are going to kill everything behind it. This high energy particle propulsion works well in space, but on earth, it is closer to a death ray until such point as the energy is thermalized.

          For earth propulsion, we need safer reaction mass, either water or air. Air has the advantage that we don’t need to carry it with us. If it could be done, a LENR high-bypass ratio gas turbine would be just the trick for the first stage until we get high and away from people so that the ionizing beam propulsion can take over.

          We have also been reading about non-reaction mass propulsion from NASA using microwaves. This is also very exciting, but again, anything that will move your spaceship/aircraft on earth is going to cook everybody in the exhaust path. Toasty.

          I think we are all Trekkies/Star Wars people on this blog by nature, but we have to let the scientist in us ask for scientific method rather than just hope whatever Dr. Ing. Rossi says is true. I HOPE Rossi is right. I can’t know. We have the cart before the horse. I’d love for this to happen next year but I doubt it.

          • Axil Axil

            Your assumption does hold true in standard science but it does not hold true for what is happening in LENR. It’s magic indeed.

            The normal expectation of re-emission might not be happening in LENR. Holmlid produces many billions of high speed neutral particle fragments per laser shot whose speed is a goodly fraction of the speed of light. And yet, Holmlid is still alive. The gamma radiation that should be produced when these high speed particles hit the structure of the test bed does not appear. The distance that these particles fly is very far from the point of creation. The gamma damping mechanism has a very long reach,

            Some sort of BEC shield must be thermalizing the gammas produces by the high speed neutral particles. This strange mechanism might be used in space to protect astronauts from cosmic rays.

            Holmlid;s convection that he is producing hot fusion does not fit with the lack of gamma that are seen in his tests.

            If the normal processes that occur in hot fusion happened in Holmlid’s tests, he would now be dead.

            • DrD

              Hello Axil,
              Do you think this process is occuring in A.R’s Ecat? I find it hard to believe that he could be testing an engine this year unless it utilises the same processes (or almost) that he uses in the E-Catx.
              I see no reason why 1400 deg C is the limit other than materials so that’s a degree of freedom he might utilise, or not.
              I am just curious — Thanks to people like yourself and AR we may be seeing much change in theoretical physics. It is hard to follow.

              • Omega Z

                The materials(of moving parts) in a jet are limited to about 900`C. External air is drawn into the engine to assure this. As the X-cat reactors aren’t moving parts, the 1500`C heat output could transfer 60% of it’s heat to compressed air providing superheated(900`C) compressed air for thrust.

                NOTE: Rossi likely means a proof of concept jet engine in 2016. Not a product.

                • DrD

                  Agree, I would be more than a little amazed if he meant a product.

      • GreenWin

        NOTE this NASA Technical Reports – Advanced Concept Development SUGAR Phase II, abstract including LENR. Section 3.0, Section 6.2.3, and Table 6.3 provide some background on this project and LENR as a future aircraft propulsion system:

        http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20120009038.pdf

        Participants include Boeing Research & Technology, NASA Langley Research Cntr., GE Aerospace, and Georgia Tech.

        • GreenWin

          Further Note: Figure 6.3 LENR Technologies Roadmap (page 101) calls for Conceptual Design of Aircraft to begin mid 2016 and end 2017. Heat Engine testing begins 3rd quarter 2017.

          How could we forget this long term (speculative) plan kids?

      • Frechette

        A kerosene based engine in an aircraft requires tons of jet fuel usually stored in the wings and center section of the airframe which would not be the case for one powered by the E-cat. The weight saving in and of itself would revolutionize air transport.

        • Ophelia Rump

          What does a steam powered jet expel for thrust?

          An electric propeller driven solution makes more sense.

          • Frechette

            An e-cat powered gas turbine would not use steam as the working fluid. The e-cat reactor would be used only as a heat source instead of the kerosene burners used in conventional jet engines.

            The air in an e-cat jet would be compressed and then ducted to the e-cat to be heated in a heat exchanger. From there the heated and compressed air would be expanded through the turbine and exhausted in the tail pipe to provide thrust just as is the case for a conventional gas turbine. No steam is involved. The e-cat would simply replace the kerosene burners.

    • Heath

      And Elon Musk is rumored to introduce an electric VTOL aircraft at some point this year. I would love it if these two things were tied together. The one thing I trust about Elin is that he has a very open mind.

    • Stephen Taylor

      Broady speaking a jet could be a turbine?

  • DrD

    Curious, how would the jet work? This year?

  • http://www.animpossibleinvention.com/ Mats Lewan

    As far as I know, Hydrofusion is still a licensee (but of course I could be wrong). And I think some other remain. However, all the initial licensees, included Hydrofusion, appeared to me to be only commercial licensees, whereas IH has acquired also a license which includes the knowledge and the right to produce E-Cat based products. That should be an important distinction.

    • http://www.animpossibleinvention.com/ Mats Lewan

      I also think it’s interesting to note that Rossi says the E-Cat X is included in IH’s license. This has not been evident to me before.

    • http://www.animpossibleinvention.com/ Mats Lewan

      BTW, in Dec 2012 Rossi told me in an interview that IH had acquired the license for North and South America, China and Russia. In April 2013 I asked again, and he then told me that also Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates were included. I suppose I need to verify this though.

    • Omega Z

      I believe Rossi very recently affirmed Hydrofusion is still a licensee on JONP. I believe Roger Green, the Australian is still a licensee as well, tho it’s possible that the territories may have been altered.