ECW Orbo O-Cube Testing Week 1 (Feb 9 — New Video from Steorn)

I decided that once the Ocube arrived I would start a series of threads to keep track of the testing experience. So here we go. I’ll add to this post day by day until the week is up, then start a new thread to prevent the posts from getting too long.

Feb 9, 2016.

The Orbo O-Cube arrived yesterday. It was shipped last Thursday from Dublin and arrived in the US on Friday, finally being delivered to my house Monday. For some reason the tracking number got changed during the shipment, so the first tracking number I received did not work.

As I explained on a previous post, on Monday morning Steorn sent me an email explaining that the Ocube I was sent did not have a Li-ion battery in it as it was supposed to — apparently an mistake on their part. They said they would let me keep this Ocube, but will send another one with the Li-ion battery in it. The purpose of the battery is to act as a buffer which is trickle-charged by the Orbo pack which Steorn claims provides the power for the Ocube

In my first few hours of non-systematic testing I found the Ocube was able to light up some LED arrays for quite long periods of time, but after a while the LEDs would shut off. After leaving the unit for a while, it seemed to recharge. So it acted like it had a battery in it, which seemed to contradict what Steorn told me. This morning I woke up, and the first thing I did was to see if the Ocube could now charge any of my mobile devices, and it turns out the answer was no. Nothing would charge. However, it was able to light up the LED.

So this is not acting like a standard Ocube, as it is supposed to be a charger for mobile devices. So I got in touch with Steorn this morning and I think we have the answer — this has a 5F capacitor in it, not a battery.

Here’s my first video, BTW.

Some more information from Steorn regarding the capacitance.

“It has capacitance and a 5F cap, but the LI battery is needed to give it charge ‘depth’ can you take the back off there are two measurement points.”

“You have drained whatever energy is stored in the units own capacitance – it will recharge itself, if you can get the back off the unit you can measure the recharge”

I asked if the I was able to run the LED lights for a long time when I first started using the cube was because it had been building up charge for days:

“Yeah, it’s not just the 5f cap, out tech itself has quite a bit of capacitance as well (a by product, not a design feature) . . when you get the back off the unit you will be able to measure the charge build up”

Feb 10, 2016.

A quick video showing my attempts to get the lid off!

Ocube test starting Monday February 10th.

Thanks to Anon2012_2014 and Wishful Thinking Energy for providing the ideas and important supplies for this test.

We are using a PortaPow Premium USB power monitor to measure output energy from the Ocube. The USB power monitor measures voltage, current, and time to find the energy passing through the meter in mWh. We are using a resistive load for the Ocube starting at 1k Ohm. We are planning on reducing the resistance to increase the load until we reach the stated output rating of 400mW.

The meter has a stated error of less that 0.2%. It is not powered by the Orbo but has a separate battery.

0210161912

0210161911

The ocube is plugged in at 8:30 p.m. with a 1,000 Ohm resistor.

0210162032 (1)

After 45 minutes with barely any change (Voltage varied between 0.0475 and 0.0482 with no amps) we are moving to a 100 Ohm resistor.

 

With a 100 Ohm resistor the reading is 0.000V, 0.000A, 0mWh

0210162127a

After 15 minutes, removed the 100 Ohm resistor and replaced with a 10,000 Ohm one.

Reading is 0.3890 V, 0 A, 0 mWh.

Feb 11, 2016

A new short video from this morning. Sorry about the blurriness!

I’ll repeat here what I said in a comment below:

This is my thinking. This version of the O-Cube is obviously no good as a charger or for powering any kind of USB device. With the output so limited, as we have seen, I think the best benefit for people interested in getting to the bottom of what this technology is, is to open it up. Steorn says inside the cube there are built in ports for testing purposes which they say can provide useful information. Even if everything else is potted, the ports should be accessible, providing Steorn is not making that up. So that is my goal. I have an appointment to see someone this evening to look at the cube, who should have the tools and hopefully know-how to get the lid off.

Here’s another series of tests from today:

Also, I do have a weight for this ocube unit: 1101 g.

Size:
The circumference is 420 mm.
From the top of the skull to the bottom of the chin is 144 mm.
From ear to ear is 118 mm.
Depth is 39 mm.
Thickness of top casing is 3 mm.

Another short video, this time testing with the smaller LED stick. I had not tried to discharge the Ocube since the last attempt on the previous video at 11:35 a.m.

An hour later, at 3:22 p.m. I did the same experiment as the one shown in the video immediately above with the small LED stick, and the LED did not come on, nor did the power meter.

Here’s another video showing the second two tests with the small LED stick.

February 12, 2016

Here’e a video showing the behavior of the internal LED that comes on any time you insert anything into the USB port (providing there’s enough charge to activate it)

Here’s another test of the internal LED as sugggested by SG

This video shows the internal LED lighting after waiting a variety of time intervals.

Finally got the back off the ocube

0212161821a

The weight of the ocube without the back plate on is 853 g

Sunday, Feb 14th 2016

Here are some closeup photos of the ocube.

  1. There’s a little bubble of what seems to be silicon gel (soft and flexible), through which you can see what seems to be the blue casing that we have seen in some Steorn videos that enclose the orbo power packs.

0214160614

 

2. The two sets of testing terminals.
0214160615

3. The capacitors/batteries/? Someone asked the size. Each is 45 mm long and the one on the left is 15 mm wide.
0214160616

4. The complete ocube
0214160639

Steorn has been in touch with me today and said they would be shooting a video to be posted on their Facebook page late today which will show some testing of this ocube. They also said that I’d be refunded the full cost of the ocube, and also be sent a new one for free “when we are happy with the correction to our charge controller chip.” I will of course refund those who kindly supplied funds for the initial purchase of this cube.

Here’s a video showing voltage readings across the testing terminals. Video was taken about 2:30 pm on Feb 14th:

 

Here’s the latest video from Steorn

https://www.facebook.com/thebatteryisdead/videos/10153531949942672/

I just received this email from Steorn. They had asked for me to give them a reading from the test ports

The two voltage measurement points on the unit are as follows:

1) the one that is rising is measuring across our power cells.

2) the second one measures across the mega-ohm resistor. This should measure circa 14volts. That is to provide a permanent electric field that causes the Orbo cells to recharge faster and to a higher voltage level than they would with just their own inherent electric field.

The second voltage being zero is certainly a problem, I think that it is one that can be fixed for test purposes (until we get you a full unit). It will require the application of a voltage and low to no current at one of the test points – I will need to look at this in the office tomorrow and get back to you on how to go about it.

Thanks.

  • SG

    My understanding is a cap is in place of the “main” LI. The reference voltage LI is a separate part of the circuit.

    • Blue Energy

      I have previously questioned that – but you seem to be correct. The explanation in the video seems to be that two 9 volt batteries, in series, provide a voltage charge to the electrets that respond by producing power that trickle charges either a li-ion battery (or a 5F cap in Frank’s only) that then accumulates enough juice that it can be used, up to twice a day, to charge a phone. The 9 volt batteries are prevented from providing power to the li-ion battery or the phone by a million ohm resister. If true, this would truly appear to be significant energy from nowhere – although it will still need to be tested in an environment that prevents changes in temp, magnetic field, etc. At the very least it would indicate a big advance in environmental energy harvesting.

      Hopefully, Steorn’s solution to the failure in Frank’s device, if it requires an additional power source to replace the 9 volt batteries, will also include a million ohm resister to make it clear that the voltage source from the outside does not contribute directly to the power being sent to the capacitor.

  • ecatworld

    I have started a new thread for week 2 of testing. Please add questions you’d like me to ask Steorn on that thread.

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/02/15/ecw-orbo-o-cube-testing-week-2-feb-15-post-questions-for-steorn-here/

  • Rob King

    This is what I think the layout of the circuit is. Hopefully Shaun and confirm this.

    • FC

      Thank you, Rob.

      Mine is almost an exact copy of yours. Good to know that somebody understood Shaun’s video the same way that I did. 🙂

      Let’s wait for confirmation.

    • Sanjeev

      This is how I pictured it too.
      Only thing that’s different is, the orbo terminals should be reversed (negative up). But I can be wrong here, pure guess.

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Agaricus

      I can’t see yours for some reason. This is mine (probably the same):

      http://www.health-answers.co.uk/orbo.png

  • ecatworld
    • Dieter_G

      where have the 4.5V gone you measured yesterday ?
      Did you check if you can confirm the 1MOhm that should be on the lower terminal ?

    • Dieter_G

      according to them, thats what the circuit should look like, with the path on the right probably beeing broken.
      When you measure L1 – U2 you are basically measuring the voltage of the battery. If you measure L1 – U1 you are measureing [the voltage of the batt minus the voltage of the Orbo-pack].
      Anyway, you should measure about the same from L2 – U2, because (compared to L1 – U2) there is only is the additional 1M-resistor. As you measure only 0.8V from U2 to L2 it indicates that the 1M-resistor is broken.

      • FC

        “the 1M-resistor is broken.”

        Maybe it’s just loose, as some people have suggested.

  • Sanjeev

    The new (corrected readings) by Frank make more sense. It seems something is wrong around the L2 terminal, perhaps one of the battery drained off, got shorted or something.
    Today’s experiments and troubleshooting will make it more clear.

  • georgehants

    Very good that Mr. Steorn is now involved, it would seem best to just wait for him to give clear instructions on any procedure that will show this device is working as stated.
    If he cannot give the advice to easily check this unit, then there is a problem that only the new complete and tested unit should solve immediately on arrival.
    Any news on delivery of the new unit?

  • fritz194

    … almost as expected.
    What concerns the 9V Blocks – a lifetime of more than 5 yrs is pure fiction. 18V on 1Meg gives 18uAmps, if shorted – this would give a duration of more than 16.000 hrs, thats 2 years. In this setup, the battery operates on a load around 2.9V – 8 V – so its more than 2 yrs – otherwise there is a self discharge – and the available amp-hours are cut by 50% after 5 yrs. So I would think about 3 yrs. If the orbo cells can be charged up to 16-17V – maybe 5yrs.
    The energy provided by those batteries is 300mAh x 16,5V – around 5Whrs – thats less than you need to charge a smartphone. (And keep in mind that it takes more energy to charge a smartphone – as what is printed on the battery – you have to power the phone during charging… ).
    The LiIon-cell in the video looks like its composed of 4 cells in series – but who cares.
    BTW there is lots of room to improve this “tech” – if it really works.
    I would buy a single orbo cell for $100 – but not this molded tinker-mess.

    • Dieter_G

      “I would buy a single orbo cell for $100 – but not this molded tinker-mess.”
      Word !
      but at the moment, not even that.

  • DrD

    Here’s a theory:
    It explains
    1) How Frank managed to power the LED’s for hours initially.
    2) Why it couldn’t be repeated.
    3) Why Franks Orbo doesn’t seem to have the 18V reference.
    4) Why the other shipped units showed over 8V output.

    Just suppose they made a small wirring mistake. It’s hard to believe but clearly something is wrong.
    Just possibly one of the 9V battteries was innadvertantly linked to the output via a low resistance route.
    If so, In Franks “no Li battery” version, power to drive the LED’s would, initially, come from this 9V battery which would discharge after a few hours. Maybe someone could check that. Once discharged, the Orbo would no longer work efficiently (9V bias, not 18). It would still work a little. In fact we would observe exactly what I listed above. The other units would also see the 9V from the same alkaline battery over riding the 5V from the orbo. i think it would also discharge soon.

    I apologise if this is nonsense. I wasn’t able to view the video as I have just arrived at work where fb is not accessible. Could some one help by pasting the video here?

    Finally, I have to say that it’s incredible they would make such an error but clearly they’ve made some kind of mistake. Also, it’s hard to believe that a wirring error would take so longs to detect and correct, a design flaw makes more sense and conceivable but how ever could they have missed it up to the point of shipping.
    One other concern — alkaline batteries don’t last for ever!!!

    • Omega Z

      “but how ever could they have missed it up to the point of shipping”

      You should retract that statement. 🙂

      A million widgets recalled yesterday. A million gadgets recalled today, Tomorrow a million……

      • Andreas Moraitis

        And millions of cars as well. Obviously, nowadays many companies tend to outsource testing procedures to the end-user. However, this strategy will only work out if they are able to cover the costs of possible call-back campaigns. I am not sure if small start-ups like Steorn are well advised to try it the same way.

        • DrD

          On our despatch boxes we have in big bold print:
          “the customer is the next inspector – quality matters”
          🙂

  • Dieter_G

    Now this video really convinced me – that it is scam !
    I guess I know why it took 8h to produce it. Not because of any 8h test as they claimed (which test, where is it in the vid ?). But now they knew their 9V batteries (which powered the device during the first two hours) are just a small cut through black electrical tape away from detection so they had to create a story that would explain their existence.

    This reminds me of dreams, where everything is morphing and transforming, like: at one moment you have a hammer in your hand and the next time you look at it, it became a screwdriver.

    Now all of a sudden their “tech” needs a push start from batteries. No mention of that ever before.
    How often did they say the following in previous vids :

    “again, as the short is removed, the voltage immediately bumps back, which is a behavior different from any known electrochemical cell”.

    And now, all of a sudden the behaviour of their “tech” changed and it takes extended periods to “charge up”, with its voltage slowly rising. Also it now has a seriuos ammount of capacitance to it and became kind of a storage device also.

    This video aims exactly at explaining what we have seen here with Franks O-cube (and in case of the batteries, what was about to be seen). Unfortunately it contradicts some of their older claims.

    The tissue of lies starts to collapse.

    Sorry for beeing so negative and sarcastic. Not meant as an offense against anyone here of course. I’m just very disappointed at the moment. Even a scam could have been done alot better than that.

    • SG

      Funny how I had the exact opposite reaction. My understanding of the circuit post-video and post-email is much richer.

  • ecatworld

    I’m checking out for the night. Thanks to all for the support in this interesting project. Crowdsourcing at its best!

    • FC

      Thank you for giving us the chance to watch and participate in this most exciting project.

      • DrD

        I second that.

  • Anon2012_2014

    We have to see now that it does more energy than 2 9 volt batteries, eh?

    I always leave open the hypothesis that there is no effect here.

    I suspect this is a conventional energy harvester. I have heard now a Maxwell’s daemon approach to modeling. I need to be disproven and frank may be able to do it. I will therefore reserve judgement on the master level of bull* till later.

  • Pweet

    Having watched the video, I think I can see now how it works, or is supposed to work.

    The Orbo power cells are just a number of ultracaps connected in series, probably 4.
    The two alkaline batteries are the power source and are used to trickle charge the ultracaps. (alias the Orbo cells)
    The video says the batteries are only a reference source, but you will notice that when the orbo is charging a phone, the voltage on the so called ‘reference source’ slowly drops until the phone is disconnected. It eventually dropped to 3.4 volts, and yet the ‘reference source’ should be putting out a constant 18 volts if it was only being used as a reference voltage and supplying no current.
    For the voltage to be lower than 18 volts and slowly dropping as the orbo discharges, clearly it has to be supplying current. Very little, but at least some. ( works out to be about .3 milliwatts which is consistent with the very slow recharge rate we are seeing)
    Obviously it must be used as more than a reference if the voltage drops during the discharge process. A ‘reference source’ should be just that, a constant voltage to use as a reference for another device.

    Also, when the load load on the Orbo is removed, the ‘reference voltage’ slowly increases.
    That can only be the case if the reference voltage is actually charging up the Orbo ( i.e. capacitors) and thus making the voltage across the 1 megohm current limit resistor decrease.

    There was no sign of any induction coils anywhere on the video as previously assumed by me so it is highly unlikely to be harvesting any emf’s from anywhere. I think we can now discount that possibility to zero. In fact, for myself, having seen whats inside, and the video of it supposedly ‘working’, I can now discount the possibility that it is harvesting anything other than the energy out of the two alkaline batteries.

    Another point; The voltage measurement taken at the inside test points will have been highly unreliable due to the 1 megohm resistance in series with the two batteries.
    The input impedance of a voltage meter can be around 1 megohm even for a half descent meter, thus straight off that would mean the volt readings would be halved. So, my previous assumption that one of the batteries might be flat is probably incorrect. It would only be correct if the input impedance of the volt meter was say 10 megohms or more. (and a good meter would be that or better).
    Depending on what the input impedance of the voltmeter is, both batteries might be ok.

    The voltage reading at the USB output port would be accurate however as the output impedance would be very low compared to the meter impedance.

    I’m surprised anyone would include two 9 volt alkaline cells in a device which is supposed to last forever. They are notoriously unreliable due to the fact they usually have six x 1.5 volts cells inside connected in series to give the 9 volts, and the connections to each is only by way of a contact pressure connection.
    Six cells in series means only one cell or its connection has to be defective for the whole battery to stop working.
    Reliability is inversely time dependent. The older they are the more unreliable they get mainly due to corrosion of the end contact points.
    Since the design does not allow for them to be easily replaced, that alone makes it worthy of a ‘fail’ assessment.

    All up, I’m really not at all surprised. I would have been much more surprised it it actually worked and was getting some unexplained energy from somewhere,.. anywhere.

    • Anon2012_2014

      They could have an inductive ferrite rod energy harvested in each of the blue shrink wrapped “Orbo Power packs”. Or it could be as Zephir says the first commercial version of Maxwell’s Demon or of an Electret energy harvester. Let’s see what it can do before passing judgement yes or no. I doubt it uses unconventional physics — hence I think it is most likely an energy harvester. I am building one at home to prove it.

      • Pweet

        If it actually is an energy harvester, the question is then, why put in two alkaline batteries as a reference source?
        It would be far more logical to bleed off a very small amount of the output power, via an isolation circuit, of which it already has one, store it in an ordinary and cheap tantalum capacitor, (because it’s only a reference voltage and doesn’t need to supply any significant current) and use that as the reference voltage.
        There is nothing technically difficult in that other than, it would remove the magical ‘free energy’.
        I’m happy to wait and see what it can do, but in the first instance, with the device supplied and the explanation as to how it works, I think the first assessment has to be that it does nothing. We certainly haven’t seen anything other than it was originally sent with a small initial charge.
        If that conclusion was contrary to expectations I would be a bit slower to lock it in, but I have to say, it is pretty much consistent with initial expectations.
        Most other people with engineering experience would have the same expectations and not even bother to look at it. I’m usually a sucker for new ides and until something is shown to be unworkable, I’m quite happy to look at it, just out of curiosity.
        Mostly people wont let you look at their brilliant ideas but in this case, Steorn was, which gave me some hope that it might actually work.
        Also, if everyone else reported their units worked perfectly I would be more inclined to believe this one was a rare exception and the idea still might work, but that does not seem to be the case. From what is reported I suspect there is not a single device anywhere which is working to specifications. Even at the officially reported failure rate, it does not look good, and I suspect the rate is higher than reported.
        Given that it has been ten years in the making one would expect all the minor bugs, such as overheating, loose connections etc would have been worked out long ago.
        They probably have, and it still doesn’t work.
        I take that as an indication that the underlying idea is not valid.
        I would be very happy to have it proven otherwise but so far it hasn’t been.

        • Anon2012_2014

          Your skepticism is fair.

          The batteries could be to bias the diodes close to the conduction point thus making the energy harvester more efficient at low input voltages from the antenna.

          • Pweet

            Possibly, but then it still isn’t working. Why not?
            The explanation I give above is consistent with what was in the Steorn video and what we are seeing from the supplied device.
            If we start to see anything different, my explanation will then be proven to be incorrect.
            Unlike the Orbo so far,. I will stay tuned. 🙂

            • Blue Energy

              With the exception that this *particular* O-Cube might be faulty beyond repair, that’s the great thing about this situation compared to all the other Steorn-related situations in the past 10 years. There is no need to feel compelled to come to judgement before everything is known. The motives of Steorn in doing one thing our another are up in the air and may never be fully known. But, the device itself is available to test. We will ultimately know whether this particular O-Cube generates more juice than it uses – or not. I take great satisfaction in that.

    • _Jim

      This whole thing looks to be a Rosemary Ainslie device, and we know that did (not) work out …

    • SG

      I disagree with you on many levels. I’ll expound in a follow-up.

    • SG

      >> The Orbo power cells are just a number of ultracaps connected in series, probably 4.

      Highly unlikely as you would need caps that together have a capacitance of about 960 F to explain the behavior observed by Frank in the first couple of hours following unpacking and testing. This part is still a mystery and cannot be explained away with conventional super caps.

      >> The two alkaline batteries are the power source and are used to trickle charge the ultracaps. (alias the Orbo cells)

      Highly unlikely as we have a zero potential measured across L1 and L2–the two terminals across the 1Mohm resistor. This indicates an open circuit. With an open circuit, you will have zero current flowing from either of the series-connected 9V batteries. This was not the intended configuration as expressed by Steorn. This part is still a mystery and cannot be explained away as being the power source for the Orbo cells. Even so, we would at most have about 5-6 charges of a smart phone if the two 9V batteries were the primary energy source. So we will eventually be able to rule this falsify this conjecture fairly handily.

      >> The video says the batteries are only a reference source, but you will notice that when the orbo is charging a phone, the voltage on the so called ‘reference source’ slowly drops until the phone is disconnected.

      This is due to the placement of the probes. Run the
      loop and apply Kirchhoff’s. Just because there is a voltage drop across the Orbo power pack, which decreases as it empties its charge into the phone, does not mean that any significant amount of current is flowing between the two 9V batteries and the Orbo power pack. And indeed, with a 1Mohm resistor in series with the two 9 V batteries, the current draw from the two 9V batteries would be minuscule.

      >> It eventually dropped to 3.4 volts, and yet the ‘reference source’ should be putting out a constant 18 volts if it was only being used as a reference voltage and supplying no current.

      Again, look at the positioning of the probes in the video. If you were to place the probes on either side of the 1Mohm resistor, you would see a higher voltage.

      >> For the voltage to be lower than 18 volts and slowly dropping as the orbo discharges, clearly it has to be supplying current.

      No, that is not so clear, IMHO, at least any significant amount.

      >> Very little, but at least some. ( works out to be about .3 milliwatts which is consistent with the very
      slow recharge rate we are seeing)

      There is currently no current flowing through the 1Mohm resistor (not even .3 milliwatts). So we cannot attribute the recharge rate to that. And the amount of current that would flow through the 1Mohm resister were there a proper circuit would be in the micro ampere range. We have seen recharge rates as high as 1 milliamp, and that was assuming only 5 F of capacitance. So even in the “broken” state, this Ocube is delivering *more* than can be explained by the two 9V batteries (assuming they are connected to the circuit–which it appears they aren’t). In short, all of the evidence points to the opposite of what you presume.

      >> Obviously it must be used as more than a reference if the voltage drops during the discharge process.

      See above.

      >> A ‘reference source’ should be just that, a constant voltage to use as a reference for another device.

      It appears to me that is what it is.

      >> Also, when the load load on the Orbo is removed, the ‘reference voltage’ slowly increases.

      No, the voltage across the Orbo power packs slowly increases.

      >> That can only be the case if the reference voltage is actually charging up the Orbo ( i.e. capacitors) and thus making the voltage across the 1 megohm current limit resistor decrease.

      Incorrect. Even if the reference voltage was connected in a closed circuit with the Orbo power packs (which currently it appears that it isn’t), the microamps of current can not account for what we have observed, even with our “broken” unit.

      >> There was no sign of any induction coils anywhere on the video as previously assumed by me so it
      is highly unlikely to be harvesting any emf’s from anywhere.

      I think it might harvest a little, but agreed, very little if any. It is not constructed as one would expect a harvester to be constructed. At least not an EM content harvester.

      >> I think we can now discount that possibility to zero. In fact, for myself, having seen whats inside, and the video of it supposedly ‘working’, I can now discount the possibility that it is harvesting anything other than the energy out of the two alkaline batteries.

      I agree it is unlikely to be harvesting EM energy content, but disagree on the alkaline battery conjecture for reasons stated above.

      >> Another point; The voltage measurement taken at the inside test points will have been highly unreliable due to the 1 megohm resistance in series with the two batteries.
      The input impedance of a voltage meter can be around 1
      megohm even for a half descent meter, thus straight off that would mean the volt readings would be halved. So, my previous assumption that one of the batteries might be flat is probably incorrect.

      Agreed. I believe both 9V batteries are fully charged.

      >> It would only be correct if the input impedance of the volt meter was say 10 megohms or more. (and a good meter would be that or better). Depending on what the input impedance of the voltmeter is, both batteries might be ok.

      Agreed.

      >> The voltage reading at the USB output port would be accurate however as the output impedance would be very low compared to the meter impedance.

      Agreed.

      >> I’m surprised anyone would include two 9 volt alkaline cells in a device which is supposed to last forever.

      Shaun gave an explanation. We can now test his claim. I don’t think Steorn have ever claimed the Ocube will last forever. They have promised a 1 year warranty.

      >> They are notoriously unreliable due to the fact they usually have six x 1.5 volts cells inside connected in series to give the 9 volts, and the connections to each is only by way of a contact pressure connection. Six cells in series means only one cell or its connection has to be defective for the whole battery to stop working. Reliability is inversely time dependent. The older they are the more unreliable
      they get mainly due to corrosion of the end contact points.
      Since the design does not allow for them to be easily replaced, that alone makes it worthy of a ‘fail’ assessment.

      That might contribute to the expected “25% failure” rate.

      >> All up, I’m really not at all surprised. I would have been much more surprised it it actually worked and was getting some unexplained energy from somewhere,.. anywhere.

      I’m not convinced one way or the other. This require much more testing before we can draw any firm conclusions. It is useless, IMHO, to jump to conclusions. Far too many unknowns at this point. But we are getting closer to answers. 😉

      • Pweet

        I don’t think any of the test points are on the 1 megohm resistor. Where did that info come from? Not from the pics in the video.
        From the video, two of the test points, and I think it’s the two points which show the highest voltage, are across the output of the two batteries.
        The circuit looks to be tp1 -> bat 1 negative, bat 1 positive -> 1 megohm res, other side of resistor to bat 2 negative,then -> tp2.
        Thus any voltage measurement at these two test point have to give an indication of voltage across the resistor, providing there is 9 volts in each battery.
        That is consistent with the variable voltage measured by different meters, depending on their internal resistance.

        In the video the volt meter always remains across the series battery / resistor / battery connection. It is this voltage which is almost 18 volts open circuit ( it would have shown 18 volts except for the internal resistance of even his good quality meter.) and drops to 3.4 volts when under load, so the remaining 18 volts minus 3.4 volts must be dropped across the resistor. So long as there is 9 volts in each battery.
        A 15 volt drop across a 1 megohm resistor means a small current is flowing.
        It just has to be.
        Even Mr. Kirchoff could not disagree with that, if he were still alive.

        • SG

          >> I don’t think any of the test points are on the 1 megohm resistor. Where did that info come from?

          Sorry, I could have been more clear. We are developing a fairly rich history of testing of Frank’s Ocube and much of my post pertained to that. I’ve since edited my post to indicate when I was talking about Frank’s Ocube versus Shaun’s latest video.

          >> The circuit looks to be tp1 -> bat 1 negative, bat 1 positive -> 1 megohm res, other side of resistor to bat 2 negative,then -> tp2. Thus any voltage measurement at these two test point have to give an indication of voltage across the resistor, providing there is 9 volts in each battery. That is consistent with the variable voltage measured by different meters, depending on their internal resistance.

          Agreed

          >> In the video the volt meter always remains across the series battery /
          resistor / battery connection. It is this voltage which is almost 18 volts open circuit ( it would have shown 18 volts except for the
          internal resistance of even his good quality meter.) and drops to 3.4 volts when under load, so the remaining 18 volts minus 3.4 volts must be dropped across the resistor. So long as there is 9 volts in each
          battery. A 15 volt drop across a 1 megohm resistor means a small current is flowing.
          It just has to be. Even Mr. Kirchoff could not disagree with that, if he were still alive.

          Agreed–in Shaun’s video. Kirchoff would agree. And that is actually what Shaun states is the intended configuration. That is not how Frank’s Ocube is behaving. So we think Frank’s Ocube is “broken” in this sense. And when the proper electric field is applied, the expectation is that the charging rate will go up. Not due to 15-18 micro amperes from the two 9V batteries. No, that minuscule amount of current cannot explain what we have seen–even with a “broken” configuration.

          • Pweet

            That’s true.
            But I think the results we are seeing with Franks Orbo probably indicates it actually does have a Lithium battery fitted, as per what should be there and what Steorn said in the video.
            That would fit perfectly what we are seeing.
            Lithium batteries, along with most others, have a small regeneration capacity when the load is removed, even when caned half to death.

            It seems very strange to me that a production facility would assemble a device to send out to a customer and forget to put one of the major components into it. Specially since it actually has so few parts. Sort of like sending out a new car but forgetting to put the motor in it. But hey,. anything can happen I suppose.

            Rather than get a refund, I would be more inclined when all else has failed, to carefully cut it all up to see just what is in it. Specially the Orbo cells.
            Most likely options which would fit what the thing looks like are-
            ferrite rod with a coil around it and a capacitor to resonate, plus a diode pump to take off a milliwatt or two.
            Or,.. 4 small ultracaps,
            Or, eye of newt, and toe of frog, Wool of bat, and tongue of dog; Adder’s fork, and blind-worm’s sting, Lizard’s leg, and howlet’s wing.
            Well maybe nothing that complicated but just some of it?

            • SG

              >> Franks Orbo probably indicates it actually does have a Lithium battery fitted

              We have all wondered the same. But I’m inclined to think it is as Shaun has stated with respect to Frank’s unit: that it was shipped with a 5 F cap instead (aside from the two 9 V batteries–separate matter). The reason is that Frank believes that he accidentally shorted out the terminals of the Ocube power pack one time. The voltage quickly dropped to 0.01 V–not the behavior of a battery. The voltage then began to gradually climb once again. In that sense, it didn’t behave like a battery. In addition, Shaun’s estimate that each Ocube power cell can hold about 1500 J of energy (x8) correlates quite eerily to Frank’s observation that initially for ~ 2 hours he could light LED banks that ranged from .75 W to 1.5 W. Do the math. You’ll see what I’m talking about.

              • Pweet

                Lets say an average of 1 watt for a combination of the two lamps. Just an approximate figure to check feasibility.

                Energy required for 2 hours run time;-
                1 watt for 2 hours, -> 3600 X 2 = 7200 Joules.
                We only need to find a possible source for 7200 joules.
                It wont be a 5F capacitor. 1/2 X CV^2 even if we can drain it completely.
                5 X 5 X 5 / 2 = 62.5 joules. It’s miles too low. ( sorry,. mixed units)
                And eye of newt is definitely out due to a shortage. of such. (And the maths is still unproven.)

                But,..
                Let’s say it’s a lithium battery with a rating of 1000 mahrs. at 3.7 volts
                1.0 X 3.7 = 3.7 watt hrs X 3600 = 13,200 joules, provided it was fully charged. More than enough to run the lamps for two hours.

                And a half charged 1000 mahr litihum battery would fit perfectly.

                Regarding shorting out two terminals;-
                Even a lithium battery has some internal resistance, and the better ones have a current limit to guard against damage and possible explosion if accidentally shorted out when fully charged.
                Even if it was shorted out, I don’t think it would be the end of the battery.
                I’m still for the lithium battery.

                • SG

                  Do you still believe that U1/U2 are across terminals of a lithium battery? (Just curious given the measurements and experiences of today.)

  • Casual_Observer

    Hi Frank,

    Some of your regular posters are rather disrespectful and spiteful of the mainstream scientific establishment. Now that you are going through a formal testing process yourself, I’m sure you are seeing firsthand how difficult it really is to do things methodically and accurately from the start, without making mistakes. I’m sure you are also seeing how easy it actually would be to make an error, if you didn’t have dozens of people monitoring and scrutinizing your every move.

    My hope is that by seeing you genuinely struggle to be rigorous in your testing, that your readers – especially those who are hard on the scientific community – might gain a better appreciation for how difficult even the simplest scientific work actually is!

  • Anon2012_2014

    portapow is a combo power meter and not designed as a voltmeter or multimeter. That’s why it’s impedance is likely lower.