Rossi Gives Some Leonardo Corporation Updates (Update: Leonardo ‘Property of a US Trust’)

Andrea Rossi has been talking quite a bit about his plans for the E-Cat lately, and he often mentions it in connection with the plans of Leonardo Corporation (and barely ever mentions Industrial Heat now). Here are some recent statements:

1. Ecat.com Website

January 6th, 2016 at 8:08 PM

DEAR READERS:
Please go to
http://www.ecat.com
It is the new official website of Leonardo Corporation for the E-Cat.
It has been renewed substantially during the last 3 days, to prepare the new phase of Leonardo Corporation.
Leonardo Corporation will go through a process of strong development to prepare the huge work that will have to be done after the end of the tests on course. If the results will be positive, we will have a huge work to do. If they will be negative, we will have an even more huge work to do.
I think our website has been well improved. Suggestions are welcome.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

2. Scientific Committee Formed

Q: About the E-Cat X and its application to a jet engine: are you working on it in collaboration with that engineer connected with an aerospace industry you mentioned recently?

Andrea Rossi

Daryl:
Yes. He accepted now to be part of the scientific commettee I am setting up for the future R&D of Leonardo Corporation.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

3. Possible Licensing of E-Cat

Q: Your strategy will be only to produce E-Cats as final products, ready to go on the shelves, or also to produce E-Cats conceived as modules for heat generation destined to be used from other manufacturers to make any other product independently from you?

Andrea Rossi

S.:
Good question.
I thnk Leonardo Corporation will consider also the possibility you have indicated.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

I followed up on this comment by asking Rossi if this signaled that Leonardo was now open to licensing E-Cat technology. He responded: “To be considered in specific situations.”

This last comment is a particularly intriguing one to me, as it opens the door for Leonardo to start providing E-Cat technology for other companies to build products around. If the E-Cat is a truly revolutionary technology (especially now with the E-Cat X producing electricity directly), I would expect there to be a great deal of interest from companies around the world who see the great potential for new and improved products based on Rossi’s technology.

If Rossi hopes for a massive diffusion of E-Cat-based product, it would very difficult for Leonardo Corporation, as a brand new company, to do all the design, engineering, manufacturing, and distribution of new products using the E-Cat, especially in highly specialized fields such as aerospace where big companies have so much expertise and experience already in place.

So where does all this planning for Leonardo Corporation leave the Industrial Heat connection? Perhaps they are a manufacturing or distribution licensee only, and not involved in product development. It would be interesting to learn more on that front, but it seems that Rossi is now planning to have Leonardo Corporation lead out in moving the E-Cat into the marketplace.

UPDATE: Someone on the Journal of Nuclear Physics asked about the status of Leonardo Corp:

Giuseppe
January 10th, 2016 at 4:51 PM
Dear Andrea,
can you better clarify (if possible) who own E-Cat and who the IP, you, Leonardo Corp. , IH, Darden, some other.
Regards,Giuseppe

Andrea Rossi
January 10th, 2016 at 5:39 PM
Giuseppe:
The Intellectual Property of the E-Cat is property of Leonardo Corporation.
Leonardo Corporation is property of a US Trust.
Warm Regards
A.R.

Back in 2012 Rossi stated that Leonardo Corp. had become the property of an ‘investors trust’, so I guess that is still the case. Of course this begs the question: who are the investors behind the trust?

  • http://renewable.50webs.com/ Christopher Calder

    So, if on March 1st, 2016, the year long E-Cat test is revealed as robustly positive by the third party testing agency, the factory owner, and by Rossi, will that news have an affect on oil prices? Oil is rumored to be headed down to $10 a barrel. Will the E-Cat news be one more straw on the camel’s back? Place your bets here.

  • US_Citizen71

    Maybe Industrial Heat only owns right s in the USA?

    Julia

    January 11th, 2016 at 3:46 PM

    Dear Andrea,
    Congratulations for your US Patent.
    For any initiative in the USA regarding the E-Cat which is the proper contact ?
    Thank you,
    Julia.

    Andrea Rossi

    January 11th, 2016 at 5:58 PM

    Julia:
    The proper contact is:
    Industrial Heat, [email protected]
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • ecatworld

      Also Canada, according to another comment by Rossi today.

      • Buck

        Frank,

        it seems reasonable to suggest that China is also included in the IH territory given the ongoing relationship between Darden and the Chinese’s interest in “Nickel Energy”

        • ecatworld

          Yes, I’ve read they have China also.

          • Omega Z

            This is all part of a greater partnership.
            The only question is what percentage does Rossi still own and how much control does Rossi still wield. In Mats Lewan interview with Fulvio Fabiani, there are 2 primary players. Tom Darden & Andrea Rossi.

            North America, South America, China and the U.S. Military were all held in reserve of Licensing agreements for the E-cat technology by Rossi. This all goes back to the days of Rossi’s dealings with Ampenergo.
            In Short, Any dealings with these 4 entities fully involves Rossi 100%. This is the Big Enchilada.

          • Brent Buckner

            FWIW “Roger Green of E-Cat Australia has said that Industrial Heat holds commercial license for the USA and China,” from http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/09/17/e-cat-commercial-rollout-leonardo-in-europe-industrial-heat-in-the-usa/

  • LilyLover

    The way I read this is –
    Darden wanted toabsorb all E-Cats. If not for personal profits, for his “name”. He and his team of lawyers came up with a harsh contract so as to “justify” this venture to risk-averse Cherokee. They simply did not “just trust Rossi”. So, dear doctor complied and outmanoeuvred Darden’s lawyers. Tit for Tat. He managed to own the electric E-Cat. Previously seen as pipe-dream by Cherokee/Darden, the realization that the electric E-Cat has become reality, has left them both burnt-hearted.
    Had they simply made a golf-course verbal deal with Dr. Rossi and offered him unqualified support, today, the dear doctor would have happily allowed them to take reign over the E-Cat X.
    The moment Cherokee presented him a “metrics based” iron clad contract, Dr. Rossi said in his mind, “As you sow, so shall you reap.” So, after his fulfilment of the contract after the long test, dear doctor has no more moral obligation to be associated with IH.
    Just as they were “looking after their interest”, Dr. Rossi has achieved the freedom to look after himself, nay, humanity and his E-Cat X.

    Note to investors: There is a time and place to follow standard contracts, and then there is a time and place to stop doubting Dr. Rossi’s claims.

    Doubting dear Doctor was the fall of IH. Legally, they’ll still get what was promised and could perhaps make short term profits. The problem they have is, the success of long-term test validates Rossi and foreshadows any IH-profit ventures as the credibility awarded to Rossi will fetch him the best and mightiest backers for the E-Cat X.

    This is not only a case of lost business opportunity for IH, but also a signal to all businesses that lawyering-the-hell-out-of good scientists doesn’t pay in the long run.

    Trust deficit exhibited by the IH, is in fact biting IH back.

    And all those who think dear doctor is fraud, you ought to salute him for conning one of the the most astute teams of businessmen and lawyers of the World. Agree?

    • Brokeeper

      I think you nailed this LL. Perhaps is why AR has not acknowledged IH/Tom Darden lately. He has learned how wolves in sheep clothing operate from his tumultuous past and become very aware of any subtle agendas embedded in paper handshakes. What better way to put in Trust, as name implies, to someone close to you like your loving spouse and confidant, as “the ownership, (who) will deem it opportune” to step down from CEO.

      • ecatworld

        Today Rossi has referred twice to Industrial Heat, both in terms of them being a licensee — for Canada and the USA. I think the Licensor/Licensee relationship between Leonardo and IH is intact.

      • Brokeeper

        My point was not to demonize Tom Darden, just the contrary; I admire him for his character and leadership as this planets steward. It’s just those representing him with protectionist policies that may bring caution to the embattled wary.
        It appears to me the E-Cat is in good hands with H/Cherokee/Tom Darden, but seeing greater potential with the E-Cat X may inspire another agenda contrary to
        Andrea Rossi’s plans for all concerned. All is good.

    • GreenWin

      Hi Lilly, and Happy New Year. You make a very good argument. However, it might not be as contentious as some think. An “exclusive license” to certain IP can be interpreted as an acquisition – but that’s not the fact. A license (which IH appears to have) transfers exclusive rights to the licensee while preserving the underlying patents and trade secrets (the empirical IP) to the licensor – Dottore/Leonardo.

      This is a good thing for inventors (who are artists) as it frees them to research and develop new, improved variations on their IP – since they retain ownership. While I would like to think Tom Darden is not out to “own” Dottore Rossi – the Doc has taken the smart (and typical) position of always retaining ownership to underlying IP.

      We see this in copyright law where the author of a bestselling novel licenses certain, specific rights to a media company to produce a film. Typically the media company tries to obtain rights to “derivative works” – an attempt to own the author’s future ideas. Good lawyers refuse to assign derivative rights – unless they have little leverage. What they MAY do is write an “option” for the licensee to obtain derivative rights in a future negotiation. This may be the structure of the Leonardo – Industrial Heat agreement.

      Regardless, we should not see IH/Darden and the Cherokee investors as an adversary. They are the visionaries who risked investment in Rossi when 99.9% business community wouldn’t touch him. Tom Darden and his silent investors are to be lauded for their courage and faith in a highly controversial technology and its inventor. Let’s not lose sight of that fact. LENR needs friends with vision for a better world. The Darden/Cherokee track record confirms this – for me.

      • LilyLover

        “Tom Darden and his silent investors are to be lauded for their courage and faith…”
        >>
        That I do GreenWin! What I’m complaining about is that the Cherokee took a 75% leap of faith instead of 100% leap of faith.

        I’d still have complained if they had taken 99% leap of faith with 1% distrust and hence paper contract.

        My complaining is not so much about Cherokee, but about Cherokee being influenced by the Wharton MBAs and Harvard Lawyers for insisting upon that “paper-contract”.
        Even if at 1%-level, that written contract represents distrust – a crack that grows to burst the dam or a match-stick that burns down Union-carbide.

        Had Cherokee taken the step with 100% faith and assumed that investment as a sunk cost, then, with freedom, doctor Andrea would have allowed them to be a bigger part of the history of E-Cat X.

        That 1% crack in the free-willed friendship is always introduced by the “contract” language. This eventually becomes like a friendship – wherein Francisco Scaramanga opens the champagne cork with his golden gun as a welcome gesture.

        • GreenWin

          I’m hearing and (feelin) you Lilly. However, as you already know, judgment, be it of high or low people, (i.e. the homeless, or Wharton MBAs) does not serve us well. The fact Darden (an Ivy League JD) and company are the only people to step up and invest in Rossi when consensus screamed “fraud, felon, fake” is instructive.

          You and I are likely the personality type that goes 100% or nuthin. But we must respect the less adventurous and more pragmatic of our comrades. Tom D represents a couple B$ of hard working peoples’ money. The fact he stepped up and took this risk is courageous. Further, that it was an “ivory tower” guy who did so — is important. IF we can deprogram our best and brightest from the “life is combat” pedagogy… we will evolve faster. IMO – 🙂

    • LarryJ

      Pure conjecture with your only evidence being your lack of evidence. IH are Rossi’s licensees in North America which we know and possibly China which is conjecture too but seems likely. I would conjecture that IH are licensees for all of Leonardo’s products in the regions they serve. Seems pretty simple and I have seen no evidence to the contrary.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Just wondering, Rossi and IH might be having a little fight, could it be because IH filed a patent in their own name?

  • ecatworld

    On the JONP: Q: Which is exactly your position inside Leonardo Corporation?

    Andrea Rossi
    January 11th, 2016 at 8:49 AM

    Christel:
    In Leonardo Corporation I am the CEO (Chief Executive Officer). So far.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Q: Can you foresee up to when you will remain the CEO of Leonardo Corporation ?

    Andrea Rossi
    January 11th, 2016 at 3:32 PM

    Ryan:
    Until the ownership will deem it opportune.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • GreenWin

    If one expects a closely held corporation to generate $$Bs income…

    “One of several different types of charitable trusts, including
    Charitable Lead trusts and Charitable Remainder Trusts, established to
    benefit a particular charity or the public. Typically charitable trusts
    are established as part of an estate plan to lower or avoid imposition
    of Federal (and some states’) estate and gift taxes and/or to save
    capital gains tax. It can be a win win situation since the donor is able
    to achieve a tax reduction while still providing for a very worthwhile
    charity that provides a great service to the public. When this is done
    during life an income tax deduction is available then the property is
    out of the estate for estate tax purposes or will generate a deduction
    to remove it.”

    http://www.floridaestateplanninglawyerblog.com/2006/12/charitable-trust-definitions.html

  • Mats002

    Mills demos has been some fire crackers going off in front off the investors, I am not impressed with nor his demos nor his non-existing deliveries of his promises since many years back. I put him in the Keshe group of entrepreneurs. Hope to get some reason to change my mind about him.

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Agaricus

      At least this time he’s dumped the welder. Ignition of the water (actually, steam in this iteration) now seems to be initiated by 4 induction coils or capacitors, apparently assisted by mixing hydrogen into the fuel flow.

      Looking at this creation I would guess that most of any energy release would be absorbed into the structure (including the photocells) as heat, and dumped at the radiator, with maybe a few percent converted to electricity. Perhaps it will work for long enough to drive some milliammeters and a laptop display – until deposits of spattered spark electrode material and overheating do for the PVs.

      • GreenWin

        Looks like he’s addressing the serious issue of heat at the PV collector. At best PVs are about 15-20% efficient – so the stainless will absorb / radiate energy.

        Kinda miss the old Raney nickel / H2 days at BLP. Back then his Ni/H2 reactors appeared to presage those of Dottore. Still, Mills is closer to achieving the 65 year old hot fusion claim: “We put the Sun in a bottle.”

  • Ophelia Rump

    Clovis Ray, I am too uninformed to understand the significance of a US Trust. Can you please enlighten me?

    • passerby

      Sounds like he thinks it is a “trust company” instead of a regular trust which anyone can set up. We have no way of knowing either way.

      • Ophelia Rump

        I tried researching it, the best I could come up with is there is big money behind it. That is probably an awfully bad evaluation of what he means.

  • Bob

    The trust must be a relative new entity. Below is a link to the Florida Department of Corporations that shows Leonardo Corp.’s status as of Jan. 2015. It was not in a trust at that time, so the trust is less than a year old. (This is not a negative, just stating that it must be a new development)
    .
    http://search.sunbiz.org/Inquiry/CorporationSearch/SearchResultDetail?inquiryType=DocumentNumber&aggregateId=domp-p10000091220-e18d294e-6d0c-4011-a0a4-ba045b78b5b0&directionType=Initial&searchNameOrder=LEONARDO%20P100000912200&searchTerm=P10000091220
    .
    It lists Andrea Rossi as the CEO and a Henry Johnson as president.
    .
    I guess it should be noted that a trust can be one person, such as Andrea himself or his wife. So again, I caution that we do not read too much into this statement. It could be positive news or it could be rather meaningless. The statement “property of a US Trust” carries absolutely no information of value at all. It is complete speculation that the trust is “This is great news…” or it is also speculation that it is meaningless. The sentence as presented, without factual specifics is however meaningless.
    .
    A “Trust” in the US is setup for the following primary reasons:
    .
    1) Protect personal assets against litigation
    2)Avoid probate
    3)Preserve privacy
    4)Replaces a power of attorney
    5)Avoiding certain taxes
    6)Benefiting charities and institutions
    (Not my opinion, search for reasons for US Trust)
    .
    A trust in no way requires the inclusion or relationship of a large corporation or governing board. So again, we should caution about reading too much into this sentence.
    .
    It is of some meaning that Rossi does not mention IH/Darden at all in his response to a question that specifically inquires of them. It is not a positive sign that Rossi leaves IH out of his response. However, I will also state that absence of a response is not confirmation that a break in their relationship has occurred. It is worrisome (my opinion) that while in the past Rossi often touted his relationship with IH, that it has been a very long time since he has made any post mentioning them.
    .
    An interesting point that Rossi made the statement “…I am setting up for the future R&D of Leonardo Corporation”. Darden mentioned a while back about a facility expansion at the NC Research Triangle park for R&D. Here Rossi mentions future R&D of Leonardo Corp. but nothing about the new IH facility. Hopefully they are one and the same, but the new facility was current to my understanding and not future.
    .
    It will be of great significance, once the status of their relationship is factually known. I sincerely hope that all is well. Darden lends a tremendous amount of “positive significance” to this story!
    .
    The weekend is almost over and my waiting will continue next week….

    • ecatworld
    • LarryJ

      Rossi has been pretty clear on his website ecat.com that he anticipates manufacturing to begin late this year or early next so your continuous restating of your disappointment in having to wait seems a bit, well, overstated, as if he has somehow let us down. If nothing is manufactured by the end of the first quarter 2017 then we all might have something to weep about. In the meantime try and keep a stiff upper lip.

      Updated Aug 2015: The ECAT 1 MW currently operates as a Pilot Plant
      gathering useful data to feedback in preparation for the mass production
      which is planned to start late 2016 to early 2017. The first Pilot
      Plant is undergoing a certification process where certification will be
      finalized in first quarters of 2016. You can pre-order the ECAT 1 MW for
      Heat generation by filling out the inquiry form on the right. http://ecat.com/ecat-questions

      • http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/ barty

        According to Rossi I should have an ecat in my basement since 2012-2013 😉

        I fully understand Bob’s disappointment.

        If IH saw that they invested in a scam, it’s clear why they quited the relationship as silent as possible.

        • LarryJ

          And he would have delivered but for certification issues that surprised him as much as anyone. He was quite clear at the time that certification for domestic use was on hold until he could show safe operation in an industrial setting. That will probably happen late this year and once a year of safe operation is demonstrated then the home reactors will probably be on the market in 2018. This is an issue that is out of his control.

          • Warthog

            LOL. Anybody who is even remotely familiar with the process of bringing “any” new technology to commercial reality will not be surprised with Rossi’s current time frame and rate of progress. Indeed, the surprising thing is that he has progressed as rapidly as he has.

            There are ALWAYS “snakes under rocks” that crawl out and bite you at inopportune times.

        • LarryJ

          I am not aware of any evidence that IH and Rossi have parted ways.I think it’s great that Rossi keeps us posted. If you know of any other developers of this technology who say anything at all then please let us know. I’m sure there would be great interest. Rossi says as much as he can say and still protect his and his investor’s interests. If you believe he has nothing to say then I think it would make more sense for you to stop reading them than for Rossi to stop commenting. This is a show I would not miss for the world. If you can’t take the heat you should get out of the kitchen.

        • Omega Z

          Darden recently signed contracts with a Chinese concern.
          Just committed to build a 20,000 square foot facility in N. Carolina.
          Both E-cat related.

          Posted November 25, 2015 on ECW
          http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/11/25/fulvio-fabiani-discusses-rossi-and-the-e-cat-with-mats-lewan/

          “Fulvio states that he is at the head of a group of 12 engineers, and later he mentions that there are 10 or 15 ‘top level managers’ which include Darden and Rossi.”

          Yet you post a split with IH/Darden due to a (scam or not working technology) being silent because of a NDA. Never mind the fact that this would make Darden an accomplice if there were any truth to your statements.

          This is total FUD.

      • Omega Z

        “The first Pilot Plant is undergoing a certification process where certification will be finalized in first quarters of 2016.”

        And that fits my thoughts that the 3rd party or referee of the 1MW plant is a certification company. (SGS??)

        • ecatworld

          Bureau Veritas, another testing/certifying company was also mentioned on ecat.com

    • Gerald

      I found what looks linke a nice overview regarding the changes in Leonardo, It’s from a site who don’t believe the e-cats are reel so read with caution.

      http://freeenergyscams.com/andrea-rossi-ecat-industrial-heat-llc-conclusions-drawn-from-the-n-c-radiation-protection-report/

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Agaricus

        Good find, looks well worth trawling through for new info (unfortunately I’m halfway through plastering a ceiling!).

        The malicious text about Rossi is very much in the style of George Hody, especially the repeated use of the word ‘felon’ – a maryyugo favourite – I suspect this page was probably ‘contributed’ by him.

      • LarryJ

        There’s no news like old news.

    • Brent Buckner

      You wrote: “It was not in a trust at that time, so the trust is less than a year old.”
      I see nothing that lists the shareholders of Leonardo Corporation, so I don’t see anything that contradicts Leonardo Corporation being owned by a trust.

      • Bob

        You very well may be correct. It appears that the Florida Corporation website lists changes in the Corporations status of officers. After a second look, I have to agree that the website does not specifically call out whether the corporation is a owned subsidiary.
        .
        Based upon that, I do recant that the trust is less than a year old. There is no information I could find currently available to factually state any age of the trust.
        .
        I still stand by my overall point that the statement of Leonardo Corp. being owned by a “US Trust” is meaningless. I did confirm that a trust in Florida can be wholly owned by a single spouse or other person. The stipulation is that the executor cannot be the same person as the beneficiary. These trusts are used for the reasons stated above and have no real impact on the LENR / eCat story.
        .
        About one and a half months to wait for the projected test date…….

        • GreenWin

          I disagree. A charitable trust owning the majority of an entity like Leonardo Inc. will have a huge impact on the e-Cat story. Simply because in order for the trust to remain in compliance – it must give away a portion or majority of its income. This means if Leonardo generates income of $2-3B – the charities the trust benefits receive significant income. In some charitable trusts this is essentially ALL net profits.

          I’ll add that this is the approach of socially conscious billionaires. e.g. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation Trust holds the huge $$ endowment (Bill’s fortune, Warren Buffet’s gift installments) – while the separate Foundation distributes grants.

          Bottom line Bob is there’s a lot more going on here than you are able to see. The things you consider “meaningless” – may charitably benefit the most disenfranchised human beings. That is meaningless only to those who fear loss of power or the there is not enough mentality.

          Considering consensus science (our best and brightest) admit to their ignorance of all but 4% of our universe – there is a reasonable chance there IS enough – for everybody. 🙂

          • Brent Buckner

            You wrote: “A charitable trust owning the majority of an entity like Leonardo Inc. will have a huge impact on the e-Cat story.”

            I think you should have written “would have a huge impact” instead of “will have a huge impact” as I am unaware of Rossi being more specific than “a US Trust” or “investors trust”. Do you have a direct quotation of Rossi available respective of “charitable trust”?

            • GreenWin

              You are correct Brent. I do not have that info.

  • Sceptic

    It’s becoming more and more resembling scam by Rossi . Nothing specific, only some vague general remarks. And its going for years.

    • LarryJ

      The lineup of people Rossi fooled has become embarrassingly long.

    • US_Citizen71

      yawn

    • bfast

      Its the lineup of people like me who want to give him my money but can’t that really challenges your position.

    • GreenWin

      I kinda miss Alpo Tenza too.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    I’m just thinking about how Rossi could make the reactors
    like Intel makes microprocessors for other companies to use.
    http://www.notebookcheck.net/uploads/tx_nbc2/intel_pentium_e5700_02.jpg

    Have this logo on a jet engine.
    http://1zi1nw7qb8j26yrfx15kzsp4.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/e-cat-trademark.png
    inside

  • Ophelia Rump

    I think we can take a hint from the names that Industrial Heat has a very particular market and role, and that Leonardo Corp is more of a more creative and inventive role.
    I would not be surprised to see a few more specialized corporations pop up as new products and distribution channels are developed.

    Dotttore Rossi is in with very sophisticated investors now. Expect corporations to fly off like sparks in every direction. The scope and magnitude of his inventions are unprecedented.

  • Jonnyb

    Has anyone asked him directly if Industrial heat and Leonardo Corp are still tied together, and if so, what is the nature of collaboration now?

    • f sedei

      From previous comments,it seems Leonardo Corp would handle the European market place, only. It makes sense to me not to place all the market place “eggs” in the same basket. Caution has always been a part of Rossi’s strategy.

    • Omega Z

      When asked Directly, Rossi always responds that nothing has changed.
      That said, In the past Rossi has called it a partnership.
      All appearances is that this is a Consortium of multiple entities(Investors).

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Yes, no reply

    • Andreas Moraitis

      He just characterised IH as their (should mean Leonardo Corp’s) „licensee“:

      Andrea Rossi
      January 11th, 2016 at 8:47 AM
      Byron:
      Thank you for your very kind words and important attention.
      We pass it on to our Licensee for Canada ( Industrial Heat ).
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.