Some New E-Cat Milestones Listed on Ecat.com (Hot Cat Safety Certification, Patent Extendability, 60 Patents Pending)

Thanks to Pekka for pointing out this section on the ecat.com website (which is now described as the “Official E-Cat Website of Leonardo Corporation”) titled E-Cat Milestones (see http://ecat.com/about) There are many familiar events listed here but a couple of new ones to me:

July 7, 2013 – Safety Certificate of E-CAT -HT by Bureau Veritas

October 19, 2015: extension of the patentability of the US Patent in 124 Countries issued by the International Patent Office of the USPTO

Also, in the Patents section of the site (http://ecat.com/ecat-technology/ecat-patents) is this note:

Leonardo Corporation and its CEO & Founder Andrea Rossi have filed the applications to extend the US Patent in all the world in accordance with the received PCT from WIPO october 2015, (ref). Besides other 60 patent applications related to all the improvements of the technology are pending.

Industrial certification by Bureau Veritas would seem to be important and useful, since it is one of the top testing and certifying agencies in the world (see: http://www.bureauveritas.com/)

  • http://www.facebook.com/100002656573372 Ian Walker

    Hi all

    For the record’ one way competitors gain confidential information is by the process of goading. So a competitor, and this includes those calling for open source. Interestingly competitors in a market will often fund and support open source, and arrange for those in their employ to take positions of influence in an open source community to steer it to their own ends.

    Competitors will seek to gain information via:
    1) Saying the product is a scam.
    2) Or they may say that the confidential information has to be released for the public good so that all can benefit.
    3) Or they may use the trick of saying the patent protection is slowing things down.

    Or a plethora of other goads, you can tell it is a goad by how harsh it is.

    Competitors can do this through:
    a) Their own actions
    b) Paid intermediaries
    c) Winding up an influenced intermediary
    d) Journalists who are fed a story

    e) Discontented former partners or employees.

    I am sure both Rossi and the staff at industrial Heat and in particular Tom Darden are aware of all these intricacies and more.

    Sometimes the interminable queries of “Are we there yet?” from the children in back is quite amusing.

    Kind Regards walker

    • Mats002

      Are we there yet?

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Agaricus

      If some of Rossi’s competitors are using such tactics, it would be difficult to distinguish their actions from those of pathological skeptics of the ECN variety. As you seem to suggest, it’s probably all water off a duck’s back as far as Rossi is concerned.

      They might still indulge in a bit of IP tracing though, when comments of this type appear on JONP.

    • Axil Axil

      You forgot about the countries that don’t respect the IP of anybody. In this case patents are useless. If a nationwide reverse engineering team sponsored by a government with a few trillion in the bank, who is number one in IT hacking, wIth billions budgeted in commercial espionage, with the ability to use any tool that science has invented, and with a strategy to dominate the market segment, does Rossi delay the release of the product for a few years until he thinks up a way to protect his interest until he has a full proof IP protection technology in place? I am not goading anybody, I am just wondering about your grasp on reality in this world.

      The U.S. cannot stop this guys no matter what they do, how can Rossi stop them. And in this real world context how important is it if we say here. “Are we there yet?”

  • http://renewable.50webs.com/ Christopher Calder

    The fission competition to LENR is significant.

    http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/01/terrestrial-energy-gets-funding-for.html

    • Zephir

      If cold fusion works as claimed (no radioactivity, cheap chemicals), then the fission can never become competitive anymore.

      • http://renewable.50webs.com/ Christopher Calder

        I hope it works out that way, but the future is always full of surprises, some good and many bad.

        • Omega Z

          The problem with Fission is it will always require major shielding and will run at lower levels due to the risks. Thus it has never been able to compete with fossil fuels economically. So if LENR works, LENR will prevail. Ever more so if it creates electricity directly.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      Well, I do think LFTR (liquied thorium reactors) hold much promise.

      Of course both fission and fusion produce DEADLY amounts of radiation during operation. This issue of course can be dealt with by shielding the device.

      Fusion is preferred since there should not be any waste products from the fuel, but the “machinery” most certainly does become radioactive and significant shielding is required for both Fusion and Fission reactors. So any replacement of internal parts of a Fusion reactor will be radioactive.

      In fact a real sticking point for many to accept LENR is the “lack” of radiation during operation – this not supported to be possible.

      LENR looks to win the race over Fusion reactors hands down and this is “much” due to no radiation seems to occur during operation of an LENR reactor. And if there is any radiation during operation, very little shielding is required.

      And the working parts etc. of a LENR reactor don’t seem to become radioactive over time (which cannot be said for Fusion or Fission reactors).

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

  • clovis ray

    Way to go,Dr. R.
    This is a very important document, as your kittens will soon be on the world market. and we want the world to know that you Dr. Rossi are the father of this magnanimous device.

    • Winebuff67

      What’s the chance we’ll see something on the market by 2020?

  • georgehants

    EFF Action

    Stop Patent Trolls: Support the Innovation Act of 2015
    The Innovation Act is the best patent troll-killing bill
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    E-mail your representatives
    The Innovation Act offers a host of reforms to stop “patent trolls,” entities that are exploiting loopholes in our current patent system in order to chill innovation and harm small businesses. Trolls extort money from businesses by threatening expensive lawsuits and forcing settlements. The Innovation Act provides much needed transparency, important litigation reform, consumer protections, and tools to challenge bad patents. By empowering innovators to fight back, this act will discourage trolls from making baseless demands in the first place.
    Please stand by innovators and job creators and support the Innovation Act (H.R. 9).
    https://act.eff.org/action/stop-patent-trolls-support-the-innovation-act-of-2015

    This is the year for patent reform.

    The Innovation Act (H.R. 9), introduced by House Judiciary Committee
    Chairman Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) and co-sponsored by a bipartisan
    coalition, offers a host of critical fixes to the problem of patent
    trolls. Trolls’ abusive litigation tactics have exploded in recent
    years, putting a drain on our innovation economy and harming innocent
    end users.

    Patent trolls buy up patents and use them offensively against
    unsuspecting businesses—without creating or selling anything themselves.
    Making broad claims of infringement based on patents of questionable
    validity is the troll’s favorite move. Most defendants choose to settle
    because patent litigation is risky and expensive, and trolls offer
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    The Innovation Act aims squarely at trolls’ litigation campaigns by
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    Help us stop patent trolls from gaming the system. Send a
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    • radvar

      Thanks for the link

  • Zephir

    /* Besides other 60 patent applications related to all the improvements of the technology are pending…*/

    This is quite an investment. And also anything good for public spreading of cold fusion technology.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Patents are what protect inventors and motivate people to invent, or so the theory of old went. What approach is used to market has far more impact nowadays.

      If IH follows current approaches like Elon Musk, and Steve Jobs have made popular the distribution could be quite rapid.

      If IH were for instance to specialize in a few premiere brand name complete models of core ala Intel Inside, making the plans for the housing control systems and all external apparatus public domain, and kept only the chips propitiatory, they would have a license to print the chips like casino chips. All the while profiting wildly off their patents.

      • Zephir

        /* Patents are what protect inventors and motivate people to invent, or so
        the theory of old went. What approach is used to market has far more
        impact nowadays */

        Color me impressed

        http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/P/bo6637375.html

        http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2014/06/18/13633/

        https://aeon.co/essays/has-progress-in-science-and-technology-come-to-a-halt

      • Omega Z

        The primary purpose for patents was to protect the little guy.

        I had a great Idea, but no means to implement it. Thus I go to those of means.
        They like the idea, buy me a Starbucks & send me on my way.
        They produce product from the idea, make billions, fly about in their private jet.
        While I sleep under a bridge in a cardboard box.
        Patents were to prevent this & see that you were paid/benefited for your intellectual property.

        Like all things based on good intent, there is always those who will find a way to game the system. To add insult to injury, it seems as if any attempt to fix it tends to benefit only the big players. Not those for which patents were meant to protect. We need the patent system, but we also need to find a way to fix it.

    • radvar

      If it’s important enough the government will force broader licensing

  • Mats002

    Pekka or if anyone else know: Is Bureau Veritas a government or private organisation? Are they open so we can get more information? We can learn a lot here, an interesting possibility!

    • ecatworld

      http://www.bureauveritas.com/

      It’s a France-based publicly traded company with operations around the world. One of the biggest testing/certification companies out there.

      • Mats002

        Thanks, to what extent are they open with information?

        • ecatworld

          I would guess that they keep client information confidential unless there is agreement to release it.

          • Omega Z

            They are not to disclose info as there may be proprietary information that could be used by competitors. At most, you may learn whether something received certification or not after the fact.. Even the certification can be of value to competitors. Thus, Rossi’s SGS certification was acknowledged only by agreement between them.

      • Bob

        What would really be interesting to know is what is there certification. As I have posted here before, there is no “safety certification”. There are standards that one can get certified to, but no “industrial safey cerficiation”. For example, Rossi’s SGS se certification is to (Directive 2006/42/EC Annex I ). It specifically states Annex I, so only the requirements of Annex 1 are included. Also it distinctly states on page 2 the following is taken directly from the Rossi provided document:
        .
        .”This certificate relates solely to the above identified prototye machine within the limits of the request for voluntary testing of essential health and safety requirements relevent to Annex I of Directive 2006/42/EC. The certificate does not constitute a “product certification” and cannot, in any way, be used for commericial purposes and / or advertising by the company on whose behalf the certificate was issued. The machine must be used according to itw own instruction manual and in any case, according to the regulations and presriptions applicabe to the country of use”
        .
        http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/EFA-rep-1107.pdf
        .
        So if one takes time to actually read data and not assume what everyone posts is accurate, you can clearly see that Rossi does not have an SGS se safety certificate for the 1MW plant that has any commercial applicable usefulness.
        .
        Also it is interesting to note, that Directive 2006/42/EC specifically states that nuclear devices does not fall under it’s scope. So if the eCat is fusion, even cold, it does not fall under this scope. I do point out that there is a question as to the core process reaction. Some say fusion, others state a non-nuclear process.
        .
        So again… to state that one has a certificate means little. One needs to state what standard the certificate is to and what the scope that certificate covers. The SGS certificate, Job Number 12.6063, issued to Leonard Corp is not a commercial use certificate, covers a limited scope of a general standard and specifically states it is for the one prototype unit tested and not approved for any commercial use.
        .
        This is not to say that the certificate is useless! It does show that Rossi provided a prototype. That SGS evaluated the controls and general external apparatus and found no violation of health and safety as far as electrical and mechanical controls. It does not confirm anything about it producing heat at all, much less over unity.
        .
        This is a good example of a brief general statement getting some over hype.
        .
        Unless we know the standard the Vertias certification is to and any restrictions on that certificate, we cannot really state much about it at all. It could be a very important certificate! It could just as well be as the much hyped SGS certificate that has no bearing at all on commercial use. So I know nothing about this Vertias certification. It MAY be very important.
        .
        I DO know that the SGS certification is really of little value or significance as I have actually read it and it clearly states the parameters and restrictions. I am not guessing nor speculating. It clearly states exactly what it is.
        .
        Even though the SGS certificate is sometimes posted here as proof of the eCat has a safety certification, in reality it does not. The truth is the one prototype has a voluntary evaluation for general electrical and mechanical safety that is not applicable to commercial use. It does not apply to any other 1 MW plant, including the one currently being tested.
        .
        We know nothing about the Veritas certification can say almost nothing about it at this point, until the specifics are released and known. Again, one gets certified to STANDARDS not “safety”.
        .
        The weekend nears and I await good news…

        • Bob

          “does not have …..that has any commercial applicable usefulness”..
          .
          I need to amend my post to to predicate “that I am aware of or that has been posted or reported on the eCat World site”.
          .
          It is absolutely true that I do not have all knowledge of what Rossi / Leonardo Corp. has. They may have a certificate to a standard by SGS se for the current working 1MW plant and have not published or released the information. So I was in error stating that he does not have any certification. He may have and it has not been revealed. Thus my clarification!.
          .
          (Trying to take heed to the constructive advice some have given me lately!)
          🙂

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Bob, Bob,Bob: Negative, negative, why would anyone pursue a useless certification? Just to say he has a certification to sell his worthless scam; unbelievable.

            • Mats002

              The certification can have a good purpose for example for the control system. But if so, that certification will not cover the LENR/Rossi effect. I know nothing, just saying…

            • Bob

              Bernie,
              I am not negative nor positive. It is simply fact. For this site to propagate the fallacy that the SGS certification is valid for commercial use, for all eCats and meaningful is simply incorrect and harmful to the cause to a degree. It take away credibility when invalid statements get posted as fact or out of context. Read the certification, do not take my word for it!
              .
              (On a side note, I do not know where the worthless scam remark is related. I never stated that at all. Quite the contrary.)
              .
              I did state that the certificate was not useless. If one has experience or been involved in certifications, they would know why people get voluntary non-binding certifications. A voluntary, non-binding certification cost much less than a binding one. It is not unheard of for a company to first attempt to get a non-binding certification to see how their product will stand up to the standards. If it fails, they can then make the changes needed in preparation for the formal binding project. Also, sometimes a binding certification is not possible. A binding certification often requires the manufacturing process to be certified as well. If the manufacturing plant is not built or ready for production, then the binding certification cannot be obtained. There are reasons. It is not blind speculation.
              .
              So being positive about some unknown, undocumented post means nothing. It does not make it valid, not matter how much one wants it. There are posters on “anti-rossi” websites that make ludicrous claims. These continued ludicrous claims take away almost any legitimacy they have. Likewise, if a group clamors to any and all posts in a positive way, no matter how silly or unfounded the posts may be and support every item just to be “positive”, then it removes credibility in the same way.
              .
              We should be balanced. I admit and have admitted that I tend to be very scrutinizing of certain posts. Especially ones that get hype as being really meaningful when they are not. Rossi has posted about COP or SSM or even how long the reactor has been running. I have never posted a criticism about those posts because I have absolutely no evidence to post either way. Positive or negative. I have made several posts about Darden’s involvement being very positive. When there is a topic that is clearly being hyped or blown out of proportion, I do not hesitate to state what facts I know. Facts is the key, not desire.
              .
              So I do not know where you get the idea that I am saying Rossi is trying to sell a worthless scam? Because I do not blindly support every post he makes? Because I offer hard evidence that some posts on this site (Not Rossi) sometimes make extreme assumptions on a meaningless sentence. (Such as “safety certification”).
              .
              To one person’s negative is another person’s adhering to facts!
              .
              Since 2011 I continue to wait for factual significance…..

              • Bernie Koppenhofer

                Bob

                You can say the same thing in a positive way, in a hundred less words. Like, Rossi’s certification is a good first step toward selling his e-cat.

                • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Agaricus

                  Bob’s lawyeresque comments above about the nature of the ‘SGS certification’ appear to be entirely accurate and I for one welcome such factual input here.

                  As he says, it isn’t ‘negative’ to point out the facts of a situation (so long as fact doesn’t morph into opinion) and his cautionary comments do serve as a counterbalance to the slight tendency of some to go rather beyond the facts and to make unsupported assumptions.

                  That said, the SGS certificate is now ancient history, and as stated has no bearing on manufacture or sale of any current version of e-cat. It will be far more interesting to learn more about exactly what has been ‘certified’ by Bureau Veritas, the parameters of the certification procedure, and which country’s safety standards have been addressed by the tests applied.

                • Omega Z

                  How to certify a previously nonexistent device.

                  It appear Rossi has had many devices run through the certification process. Most if not all without the intent of marketing them. Merely prototypes.

                  Perhaps this is all ground work. To prepare the way for certifying the ultimate marketable product. A previous precedent has been set for certification..

        • Omega Z

          ->There are standards that one can get certified to, but no “industrial safety certification”.<-

          We build automotive brake shoes to a certain standard.
          That standard is focused on Safety 1st & foremost.

          I like that my furnace is certified to a standard. One of those standards is a safety switch on every burner. If a single switch fails, the furnace will not continue to operate. Those safety switches are themselves certified to a standard. A standard that should the safety switch itself fails, it is seen as a system fail & the furnace will not function.

          You've said there is no codes pertaining to furnaces where you live. If there were issues, there would be. There is no issue because furnaces are built & certified to standards(that 1st & foremost involves safety). No professional installer would install a furnace that didn't meet those standards. If he did, his insurer would cancel his business insurance policy & he would be out of business.

          The term standard in this situation primarily involves safety. It is why they are commonly called safety certification. Industrial certification has a lower (safety)standard then for private use as Industrial settings have technicians on premises.

          To argue that these certifications are not about safety is just semantics and kind of lame at that. Most here at ECW know that.

          • Bob

            I understand your point and see that I have not communicated by statements clearly.
            .
            Yes, many certifications are about safety. When someone on this site states that Rossi has a “safety certification” for the 1MW plant under test… because a post from 4 years ago showed a certificate from SGS-se does not make it true!.
            .
            The point I was trying to make is that a certification is much more than a simple statement. My whole point about the SGS certificate if one reads it, it clearly states:
            .
            1) it is only for the supplied prototype. No other eCat. Certainly not the one under testing now, which has went under major redesigns. People keep referring to the SGS certification as if Rossi could go commercial tomorrow with it. You have to read the certificate to see what it means. A posting on the eCat website about a Vertias certificate means really nothing unless you know what the certificate actually states.
            .
            2) The SGS certificate dealt only with external electrical, mechanical and occupational safety. It had nothing to do
            with reactor content, fuel, fuel handling, fuel disposal, radiation safe guards etc. etc.
            I could take a empty metal box, with a few switches and light bulbs on it and get the same voluntary certificate. (A silly example, but it gets the point across)
            .
            3) There are other certifications:
            A) Certificates of manufacturer origin
            B) Certificates for energy consumption ratings.
            C) Certificates for renewable energy compliance
            D) Certification for minority owned business
            E) Certification for NAFTA and EU excise
            and on and on..
            .
            My point is that it is the standard and the details of the certification that are important. The SGS certificate was very specific. It was only for external and general functions such as wiring and mechanics. It had nothing to do with the reactor, shielding or fuel handling!
            .
            My point is not about safety. My point is that because a post is made that states “Safety Certifciate by Veritas” is almost meaningless if you do not know what the certificate really states and is limited to.
            .
            I ask you.. Is the SGS certificate valid for the current 1MW plant? – No- not the one published in 2012 anyway.
            .

            Is the SGS certificate approved for commercial use? – No
            .
            Is the SGS certificate valid for legal liability purposes? – No
            .
            Is the SGS certificate valid for a nuclear device? – No
            .
            Why do people keep referring to it that it is some major stamp of confirmation or that it is an industrial safety certification?! It is not.
            .
            So my point is, that people keep referring in posts that the SGS certificate is a safety certification for the current 1MW plant and that it is of commercial value. It is not. IF you can provide data to show otherwise, I will gladly recant.
            .
            That is my only point. The same goes with the Vertias certificate. Unless it is available to get the actual facts, no assumption can or should be made of it. As one post has already stated “This is a very important document…” We have absolutely nothing to base that kind of statement.
            .
            Night falls and I will happily wait to see the actual Veritas certificate. Perhaps is will be of major value…

  • pg

    Sorry everyone but it is getting worse for Rossi every time he talks this way, now that he is not with IH any more.

    • US_Citizen71

      Nice piece of FUD have any proof or is it your opinion?

  • georgehants

    As Alain put up on another page, safety can only be judged in comparison to the many thousands of deaths Worldwide attributable to Carbon Monoxide poisoning etc. from present technology.
    It cannot be judged in isolation.
    Below an interesting link on the effects of patents on people.
    http://watchingamerica.com/WA/2015/11/16/patents-kill/

    • Warthog

      Once again you ignore the real purpose of patents: 1) to protect the inventor, and 2) to assure that technology will NOT be lost to society due to inventors keeping ideas secret,. Are patents occasionally abused…..yes, in a small minority of cases. But over all, their effect is overwhelmingly positive for society. The Founding Fathers were not very enamored of Kings, yet they included the idea of patent and copyright directly in the Constitution.

      • Zephir

        /* But over all, their effect is overwhelmingly positive for society */

        I’m not so sure about newly issued patents. They’re usually formulated in very general way, which isn’t opened to replication anyway. Also the patent law serves for manipulation with information.

        https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics_AWT/comments/2ojeab/the_us_government_has_a_secret_system_for/?ref=search_posts

        • ecatworld

          Comment is here.

        • Warthog

          I’m sorry, but you are simply wrong. Without the patent system, there would be no independent inventorship at all, and we would be right back to the bad old days of technology loss. Have you ever taken an invention to successful market?? I have. It ain’t easy.

          Your posting is rife with errors and misunderstandings. If you RE-invent a catalyst that Rossi has already patented, you simply lose. Rossi already invented it. And any patent that does NOT allow replication can be voided. Many have been.

          Yes, some patents are kept secret in the event of national security. Would you like to see some technology published that allowed the easy synthesis of, for instance, the smallpox virus??

          • Zephir

            This is like to say, that without science we would never have the cold fusion working. But the last one hundred years are filled with systematic suppression of cold fusion findings just with scientists. Every truth has its dual, sorta dark matter side which isn’t attractive but repulsive.

            Of course the official science is important for progress, but it should never get too much power or we will suffer the consequences of this power. The patent law is similar story.

            • Warthog

              “…..last one hundred years…..filled with systematic suppression…cold fusion finding….”

              Really?? There have been instances where researchers “thought” they had seen excess heat in various LENR-like systems, but I know of no cases of active suppression. That phenomenon is limited to the post Pons and Fleischmann era, and is well explained, in, for instance, Beaudette’s book.

              • Zephir
                • Warthog

                  “That phenomenon is limited to the post Pons and Fleischmann era, and is well explained, in, for instance, Beaudette’s book.”

                  Said suppression(s) have zero to do with “evil corporations” and everything to do with academic professors protecting their grant money. And that includes the patent office, as those same academics sold the idea of cold fusion being scientifically impossible.

                • Zephir

                  I didn’t talk about “evil corporations” at all. The sad truth is, the cold fusion has always been suppressed mostly with scientific community itself. This is also the reason, why I provided it as an analogy of patent law, which has been also introduced with noble intentions, but the actual reality is far less satisfying.

                • Warthog

                  What would it take to make patent law “satisfying” to you??? I have hands-on experience with the patent process, both as an employee of a major corporation and as an independent inventor, successfully in both cases, and from my perspective, the patent process works very much as intended by the Founding Fathers. Has the process been abused on occasion?? Sure. But those cases are BY FAR a minority effect.

                • clovis ray

                  HI, Warthog.
                  I am so glad we have folks like yourself, that is so knowledgeable in this field,
                  thank you for your wonderful insight, it is so needed, here sometimes,

                • Zephir

                  /* But those cases are BY FAR a minority effect */

                  Honestly: you’re as relevant here, as you were relevant regarding the scope of cold fusion suppression with mainstream physics. Not surprisingly, these two problems are deeply related each other.

                  http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/P/bo6637375.html

                  http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2014/06/18/13633/

                  https://aeon.co/essays/has-progress-in-science-and-technology-come-to-a-halt

                • Warthog

                  LOL. I have rarely seen so much BS gathered together in one place as your post above. You need to recall “Sturgeons Law” (90% of everything is crap). The mere fact of obtaining a patent is NO measure of whether an invention is commercially feasible (as was the case with the Concorde, which was killed by the (now proven temporary) energy crisis…it simply burned too much expensive fuel and hauled too few passengers to be profitable).

                  The REAL thing that was different in the world “post 1970’s” was Lyndon Johnson’s “Great Society” and its successors. Money that had been spent by the feds to fund R&D was diverted into social welfare programs. That was what crippled the Space Shuttle (if you recall, the original design called for recover-ability for both Shuttle AND booster stages). The solid rocket boosters that came to be used were a cheap kludge developed after severe reductions in NASA’s budget, and the direct cause of the Challenger disaster. And that/those funds diversions continue today. Funding for R&D has dropped, and dropped, and dropped.

                  And frankly, I know a whole lot more than you about the “suppression” of LENR…I lived through that time period, and followed it pretty much in real time. Said suppression had NO RELATIONSHIP WHATSOEVER to patents, patentability or anything at all to do with patents, despite your notion that it does.

                • Roland

                  Though there may have been cases where LENR was attacked due to the threat it posed to academic or commercial interests by people who knew/know that LENR was real I would suggest that the almost all the cases of rejection of the very possibility that LENR was/is real arise out of memes that have no place for the phenomena in their description of reality and that people holding to those memes reflexively reject the idea out of hand as obviously incorrect and/or fraudulent without any investigation of the evidence or potentialities whatsoever.

                  Any objective examination of some very widely held views demonstrates the power of belief to resist evidence to the contrary and, generally speaking, the more these beliefs are in conflict with observed fact the more vociferously these beliefs are defended in a fashion that can only be described as delusional as witnessed by the widely held view that the earth is about 6,000 years old. This particular meme is so compelling to some folks that they’re insistent on remodelling the education system to force children to adopt their ideas…

                • Warthog

                  I think it is collectively called “relying on a “trusted” authority”. If a group of “big names” at institutions of “big rep” collectively put forth a viewpoint, competing viewpoints will be ignored by those who don’t have the time or direct expertise to pass an accurate judgment. It doesn’t matter that the “real” driving force of those “big names” and institutions is to protect their budgets.

                • Omega Z

                  There are 1000’s of products that never made it to market that were not suppressed. The inventors just couldn’t find anyone with interest to produce & market them.

                  Then there are those who proved to be short sighted. Who wants to watch a box with flashing images in it. And Video recording is just a fad, but luckily there were a few who went with it anyway.

                  And then there are the orphan products with no patent protection that no one will manufacture as it’s expensive & no protection for the financial risk.

                  As to LENR, There has been some active suppression since P&F, but the biggest constraint has been analytical technology. To be able to see & understand the workings at nano and atomic scale besides a lot of guess work.

                • georgehants

                  Zephir many thanks for your contribution, you have shown the case proven beyond any reasonable doubt. but there will always be those skeptics that refuse to even consider changing their position.

                • Warthog

                  Not.

            • Warthog

              LOL. Rossi’s approach was largely Edisonian. He probably done more experiments on compositionally different LENR than the whole rest of the LENR community in toto.

              The Apple patent is a “design patent” which is quite different from a standard patent. It is actually more like a copyright of a very tightly defined and very limited entity.

        • Warthog

          The reddit posting (at least the part about Rossi) is ridiculous. Rossi is an American citizen, and has been for a long time. After Rossi’s legal problems in Italy, he emigrated to the US. He brought with him his IP on converting waste to generator fuel, upon which he apparently had a US as well as Italian patent. He LICENSED that technology to a US company, and it was a commercial success. And the money he garnered from that transaction (and further work in the US) is what he used to develop the E-cat.

          • Zephir

            /* Rossi is an American citizen, and has been for a long time */
            Really? When he got US citizenship?

            • georgehants

              Zephir, the Facts could be interpreted as Mr. Rossi selling (donating) a 1Mw unit to the defense dept long ago in return for them “leaving him alone.”
              It is unknown if he is continuing to supply them with updates on the X-cat etc. but would explain in part why he has not been shut down on the secrecy act like many other important innovations. (possibly)
              ———
              Secrets of Antigravity Propulsion: Tesla, UFOs, and Classified Aerospace … By Paul A. LaViolette, Ph.D.
              https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=AiqZwmquWKkC&pg=PA148&lpg=PA148&dq=anti+gravity+deemed+secret&source=bl&ots=ou6ub6xE5I&sig=kNgBmbPk37NTM4AZkeKSqCpWWS0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzvIaPzZrKAhWI0RQKHTx7ANQQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=anti%20gravity%20deemed%20secret&f=false

            • Warthog

              Yes, really. I don’t know the date he acquired citizenship, but the fact that he is a citizen of the US is available in multiple places, including comments by he himself.

              And the fact that Rossi’s technology has NOT been “stamped classified and seized” basically disproves your whole position. I’m well aware of the “Invention Secrecy Act”.

              • ecatworld

                I thought he was a US Resident, but not citizen.

                • Warthog

                  I thought I had seen comments to the effect of US citizenship somewhere, but on checking, I am having problems finding ANY information on his citizenship. Certainly he has made comments lauding the US for his success(es).

                • georgehants

                  My wife has asked. If wrong then I will of course apologise to Warthog
                  ——-
                  jackie
                  Your comment is awaiting moderation.
                  January 8th, 2016 at 11:18 AM
                  Dear Mr. Rossi could you clarify please, are you an American resident or an American nationalized citizen?
                  Many thanks.
                  Jackie

                • georgehants

                  Edit, very strangely the question has dissapeared, he seems to have a problem answering it.

              • Zephir

                This is just the point – if A. Rossi got American citizenship BEFORE he got his first USP regarding E-Cat – or after it. But You didn’t provide any source, so that it actually doesn’t matter.

                • Warthog

                  Since Rossi HAS obtained a US patent (and apparently has many more in the works) on his technology, I don’t see where his citizenship matters, one way or another.

                • georgehants

                  Perhaps an apology for your mistake would be in order rather than trying to cover it up.

                • Zephir

                  /* I don’t see where his citizenship matters, one way or another.*/

                  I’d say, you cannot recognize many things about contemporary society.

            • Omega Z

              If you go through all the info in Rossi’s patent application, you will find it was handed over to ABC agencies & reviewed for Security concerns. It was determined not to be a threat thus it was not hidden in secrecy.

              • Zephir

                This is just an evasion – the primary reason is, the USA didn’t want to leave such an important finding in hands of Italian individual/government – so that one of conditions for granting of patent was the selling the technology to American company. During “waiting time” many other LENR patents were granted in USA (Boeing, NASA, etc…)

      • Zephir

        I’d like to ask Mr. Ackland, why this comment has been censored from here?

        https://i.imgur.com/JshQmJC.gif