Not Just Nickel, but Palladium and Platinum on the Table for the E-Cat

We don’t know for sure what the E-Cat X is comprised of, but Andrea Rossi has said it uses different materials in the reactor compared to the old version of the Hot Cat tested at Lugano which used nickel powder along with lithium and hydrogen. From some recent comments by Andrea Rossi and Tom Darden it might be that the E-Cat X is using either palladium and/or platinum.

Steve Karels asked Rossi today on the Journal of Nuclear Physics the following questions, and Rossi’s answers are provided:

Dear Andrea Rossi,

In you posting with Hank Mills, you indicated that eCat technology with other metals, namely Palladium and Platinum, might be possible even though they are more expensive than Nickel. Can we therefore assume:

a. You have experimented with Palladium and with Platinum in eCat technology use? AR: yes
b. Are you saying that for specific, unique applications, Palladium or Platinum might have a possible advantage over Nickel? AR: this issue is the subject of a patent we are preparing

Separately, in Tom Darden’s interview with Fortune Magazine he specifically mentioned platinum and palladium when he talked about the patent that Andrea Rossi was recently awarded by the USPTO. He said:

Rossi was awarded an important U.S. patent recently, which is part of what we licensed, covering the use of nickel, platinum or palladium powders, as well as other components, in his heat-producing device.

The fact that Rossi is currently preparing a patent that covers Pd and Pt may be a hint that they are used in a technology they are currently developing — this could point to the E-Cat X.

One issue the use of palladium and platinum raises is that of cost. Nickel is far cheaper than these metals, and being able to use a common metal like nickel in an E-Cat has been one of the attractive features of E-Cat technology. If Pd and Pt are going to be used in the reactor mix it would raise the price of fuel — although it may be that only small amounts would be needed. If demand for E-Cat technology was high, this could also drive up the price of the metals used. There’s not much information to go on so far, but Andrea Rossi seems to think that there are a lot of advantages in the E-Cat X compared to the old Hot Cat (although he does not specify exactly what they are), so maybe if there are cost differences, the advantages may outweigh the extra expense.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Platinum, Pt and maybe even palladium, Pd will become cheap.
    Remember, Mitsubishi can transmute abundant tungsten, W into platinum, Pt
    And they can transmute abundant strontium, Sr into molybdenum, Mo.
    And maybe (my guess) they could transmute the molybdenum into palladium.
    Mo + 4d > Pd

  • Omega Z

    Those who have worked with Pt or Pd claim it Doesn’t consume them in the process. Well just have to wait & see.

    Anyway, Nickel works. I would expect that using the rare metals Pt or Pd is directed to more specific uses.

  • Iridium is a platinum group metal, not just a shot in the dark. For a long term deep space probe LENR power system, I would use iridium instead of nickel just to ensure reliability. You are not likely to melt it. The cost difference would not matter much as you would not likely need more than $2,000 worth of iridium for such a small but costly project.

  • Axil Axil

    Black-body radiation has a characteristic, continuous frequency spectrum that depends only on the temperature of the hot object called the Planck spectrum or Planck’s law. The spectrum of the emitted light peaks at a characteristic frequency that shifts to ever higher frequencies with increasing temperature. At room temperature most of the emission is in the infrared region of the spectrum of light. As the temperature increases past about 500 Celsius, black bodies start to emit significant amounts of visible light. Viewed in the dark, the first faint glow appears as a diffuse grey. With rising temperature, the glow gradually becomes visible even when there is some background surrounding light, first as a dull red, then yellow, and eventually a “dazzling bluish-white” as the temperature rises to a temperature near melting point. When the body appears white, it is emitting a substantial fraction of its energy as ultraviolet radiation.

    Palladium, platinum and iridium are maximally reflective in the ultraviolet light range. This characteristic is important in regards to Nanoplasmonic performance. The better that the reflective capacity of the LENR substrate is, the less dispersion of light energy suffers when the photons bounce back and forth between the substrate and the dielectric insulating gas(hydrogen).

    If Rossi’s E-cat X glows white hot, it is producing a large amount of UV radiation, the optimum light frequency for the platinum based substrate, Whereas nickel works well in the infrared frequency range as a nanoplasmonic mirror, platinum based metals are best used in extreme temperature applications.

    • bkrharold

      Axil Thank you for sharing that interesting video. Since I am unfamiliar with polaritons, would you please explain what role they play in LENR?

      • Axil Axil

        Surface Pasmon Polaritons (SPP) solitons are the site of the generation of the forces that produce the LENR reaction. SPP solitons produce two mechanisms for LENR causation: one is the generation of intense nano scale asymmetric magnetism for the production of high energy LENR reactions and second, multi-particle quantum entanglement (tunneling) that result in low energy LENR reactions.

  • Private Citizen

    The convergence of asteroid mining for palladium and platinum with a greatly increased demand for these metals for LENR might be a happy synchronicity.

  • Omega Z

    Note, aside from the rest of my post, I found something of interest that may be a clue that Rossi is playing with Platinum or Palladium. Nickel is ferromagnetic where Palladium & Platinum are Paramagnetic. I was unfamiliar with paramagnetic.

    On Wiki- Under Paramagnetic, there is a section on “Curie’s law”
    Is this reference to Rossi’s M. Curie X-cat
    Also separate on Wiki- Curie’s law and Palladium hydride.
    Some time ago, someone(?) involved in LENR determined there isn’t enough Palladium and Platinum in the world to supply all the Worlds current energy needs even with 100% recycling. Note those energy needs will increase by at least 2 fold in time.

    Platinum occurs at a concentration of only 0.005 ppm in Earth’s crust.
    Best guesstimates is there’s about 66,000 tons of Platinum on this planet(Almost all of it, some 95 percent, is located in the Earth’s crust of South Africa) & even less Palladium exists & much of it wont be reclaimable. Thus, one of the reasons they are looking for alternative materials for batteries, catalytic converter, fuel cells and such.

    Note even at present prices(A temporary market situation), many mines operate in the red. It’s expensive to extract at 3 to 4 grams average per ton of raw material.
    This however doesn’t exclude the possible use of Palladium and/or Platinum in LENR. It could be alloyed to Nickel with Nickel being the primary. Thus insignificant amounts of Platinum or Palladium may be needed per reactor charge & the net gain being greater then the 2.

    Platinum or Palladium devices could also be used for special requirements where the cost is offset by the benefit. Note that a gain in temperature isn’t necessarily the primary gain in LENR. It could be a gain in performance (Increased COP or stability) at the same temperatures.

    Palladium’s melting points is 1554.9°C. 100°C higher then Nickel. Platinum is 1768.3°C or a little over 300°C higher. Also, As the temperatures increase, containment(and accessories) becomes an issue that require more exotic & expensive materials.

    • Obvious

      The arctic, primarily the Canadian and Russian parts, and probably also Greenland, has lots of Pt and Pd in deposits that are yet to be exploited for the most part. It is contained, sort of conveniently, in large nickel deposits. Norilsk produces a substantial amount of PGEs (platinum group elements) as a byproduct of nickel mining. The rest are largely uneconomic at present due to high infrastructure and labour costs. A large number of magmatic nickel deposits contain PGEs, as do some porphyry copper mines. South Africa has some rich PGE deposits, but cheap labour is a strong reason the PGEs are primarily sourced from there. The currently uneconomic deposits are not included in most world wide resource estimates, although they may be considered strategic reserves by some countries.

      • Omega Z

        The 66,000 tons is a calculation of occurrence from the U.S. Geologic.
        Not based on known or even unknown deposits.
        You can also extract it from depleted Nuclear fuel if you can get past the radioactive issue.

        However, If it is not consumed in the reaction as seems to be the case, you could easily use it for special needs as in Aircraft, Spacecraft etc. It is just general populous use that there isn’t enough to go around.

        Note just using this in catalytic converts made the price sky rocket from $60 an ounce to $1060. Attempting to use it for all energy needs would be anything but cheap energy.

    • Obvious

      Check out “diamagnetic” then envision what happens when all these aluminum, nickel, lithium, and hydrogen compounds start decomposing, ionizing, and recombining in a pulsing magnetic field.

  • Chris the 2nd

    PD and PT much more common in space, if we go off world, no point sending it back here but if you wanted a more powerful energy source for space based applications e.g heat your space station/ship and drive electric, propellant? etc would not be difficult to obtain ( only roadblock current current lack of manufacturing infrastructure in space. but baby steps)

  • Gerard McEk

    It would be interesting to know what exactly makes these metals suitable for LENR. Is it just that they are metals, or the chemical comparability (all belong to the same group)? Can molecules be made that may also be suitable if these substances can form a cristalline structure? I am just thinking of the developments of higher tempertature super conducting materials, which are now slowly arriving on the market. If we really understand how LENR works, then that can be a huge potential for further development.

    • f sedei

      “How LENR works” is the real issue. When that is discovered, it is a new ball game, and the new energy revolution will really begin. Rossi and his team, among others, must seriously be investigating this phenomenon.

  • Iridium might work as well. It has a melting point of 2,447°C. I once asked Mr. Rossi if he had tested iridium, but he said that he could not answer the question.