Rossi: Relationship Between Leonardo Corp and Industrial Heat ‘as Perfect as Always’

Andrea Rossi has responded to a question on the Journal of Nuclear Physics which asked directly about the relationship between him and Industrial Heat. There has been some speculation recently that there might have been some change in the relationship, as Rossi has written numerous about Leonardo Corporation’s position as the owner of the E-Cat’s intellectual property.

The question was: “can you explain how is now your relationship with your American Licensee , to dissipate the rumors or give information about them?”

Andrea Rossi responded:

August 22nd, 2015 at 7:19 PM
Lakisha Madkin:
I am not a rumorist and I am spamming the B.S. I am receiving on the matter. The relationship between Industrial Heat and Leonardo Corporation is perfect as always and my work with my great Team grows up in harmony. I will spam all the next comments that will arrive on the matter, because there is no reason to talk about B.S.
Warm Regards,

Once again Rossi mentions Leonardo Corp — so it does not sound like he is simply an employee of Industrial Heat, as once was the impression. Industrial Heat seems to be a licensee, but an important one, as it appears that they have provided significant funding and personnel to help Rossi with product development and commercialization. We don’t know the details of the relationship, and probably never will. Rossi once mentioned signing a “mammoth contract” when he made the deal with IH — and he is careful not to reveal confidential details.

Rossi says that his plant and workshop are located on the premises of an IH customer, and that he has Industrial Heat employees as team members — and now he says things are perfect and harmonious, so it seems that things are on an even keel as far as Andrea Rossi and Industrial Heat are concerned.

  • LuFong

    The quote should be “perfect as always” and not “perfect as ever.”

    • bachcole

      And I thought that I was a grammer nazi. This is a nuance of grammar that completely eludes me. (:->)

      • LuFong

        This has nothing to do with grammar. It’s about quoting someone correctly. And just because something eludes you does not mean it eludes everyone else.

        • ecatworld

          Thanks, LuFong. You are correct on the quote. I have fixed the title.

  • EEStorFanFibb

    I wasn’t being sarcastic in the least. I’m a huge fan of Mats and just finished reading his book again (2nd edition this time). I really want to hear more from Mats about what is going on behind the scenes.

  • psi2u2

    I think we should not be talking sarcastically about Mats Lewan on this website. He’s been unique in his honest reporting of the Rossi saga over a long period of time.

  • psi2u2

    Very nice. Thank you, Frank, for another important update.

  • Paul

    The details of the agreement between IH and Leonardo are clear, they’ve been discussed here in the comments of a previous post and there you can find the whole truth. What is not clear is who has the control of Leonardo because if Rossi has the control it is a very bad news. It’s quite clear that other investors entered in Leonardo but not in what measure… This is the open question, perhaps a control in the companies database from a US expert could give an answer…

    • Omega Z

      “because if Rossi has the control it is a very bad news.”

      Explain why that would be bad news?

      Rossi’s intent would be to bring this technology to market, Else he would never become involved to begin with.
      All others involvement could be suspect. Possibly with the intent to bury such technology. However, with less then 50% control, this would be very hard to accomplish.

      If Rossi retains 51% control directly or indirectly kind of assures all other investors have intent to bring this technology to fruitation. Whether for the good of society or self enrichment, All involved would want the technology developed. Such arrangements tend to work well because of mutual interests. A product will come to market when all parties think it is ready.

      • Bob

        Because Rossi has been unable manage the business end of a technology.
        All the relationships he has had outside of Leonardo Corp have ended badly.
        He may be very good at edisonian development, but he does not seem to be able to make a stable business plan. Reference the Petrodragon problems, Home Depot statements, the 13 reactor statements, the previous two public reactor visit opportunities, the Navy demonstration, the licensee program, etc.
        Yes, if the relationship with IH has diminished or was never what it seemed, the eCat has a very slim chance of making it to market if the business end is controlled by Rossi.
        I hope IH and Rossi are “as perfect as ever”. I really hope that Rossi’s role is only the “Chief Science Officer” (his own words) and not the CEO making the business decisions. But that has all seemed to have changed. 🙁

        • radvar

          “All the relationships he has had outside of Leonardo Corp have ended badly”

          “All”? Please ennumerate.

          • Bob

            Certainly not to state that all were Rossi’s fault nor that I am privy to every relationship he has had.
            I do stand corrected.
            However, most of the relationships that were made public by him or published via eCat website etc., however have not been positive.
            Such as Stremmenous
            Certainly Defkalion
            Aldo Prioa and Prometeon (A very competent entity)
            (?) Green from Austraila and several other license holders.
            Italian Local / state government (Petrodragon)
            U.S. Navy *
            Seimans *
            National Instruments*
            Brian Ahern – (My understanding there has been some issue. I could be wrong)
            And while there may have not been a falling out, I cannot understand why any of the Lugano testers have not made ANY defense on their test or Rossi? Complete silence. Something must have happened.
            *(While not necessarily negative at one time the relationship was hyped and now not ever mentioned. Indications that any relationship has now ceased, thus somewhat negative. )
            Do not get me wrong. I am not saying Rossi is a fraud. I do believe he has something. I also believe he is not very good at business. I hope he lets Darden direct that portion so the eCat will come to commercial reality.

            • Omega Z

              The situation involving Petrodragon was not of Rossi’s making, but of outside interests looking to stop his technology. Considering those involved likely influenced Rossi to bring his E-cat technology to the U.S.

              There’s no issues between Rossi & Stremmenos, Only Defkalion(DGT) & their shenanigans of which Stremmenos publicly denounced them for.

              The biggest business mistake one can make is having to much trust in his fellow man. I believe Rossi learned well from the (DGT) experience. And thus it would be naive to think Rossi didn’t have several offers prior to his selecting Industrial heat/Tom Darden.

              National Instruments & Siemens were of a consultative nature. (Control instruments & Turbine requirements). Neither were derogatory towards Rossi & National Instruments went so far as to publicly post that consultations had taken place.

              License holders, This involved Industrial heat in some way. Word is they had suggestions for Rossi including dumping some of his associates & Rossi obliged them. However, several License holders are still engaged & I believe that includes Roger Green.

              Navy, NRL I assume. See it for what it was. It was exploratory in nature & a means for a Government agency to channel funding to technology of national interest that appears promising. DARPA did the same by funding SRI tests of Brillouin’s device. Such arrangements take place all the time.

              “Brian Ahern”- Snarking is common among competitors, But I note that Rossi has given props to Ahern on JONP that some of his LENR work has merit.

              As to Rossi’s business acumen, He is aware of his weaknesses(As he has indicated on JONP) & has others to deal with much of the business end. Even tho this effects us, It is really none of our business. The E-cat is his creation. Not Ours.

              If Rossi has majority control or final say is actually Business 101. If one forfeits control, Others can do as they wish with your creation. Recall what happened to Steve Jobs in 85.

              Don’t Kid yourself, Industrial Heat is in reality, Venture Capitalism. The coup d’etat of VC is gaining majority control of any investment. If Rossi has retained majority control speaks well for him.

              Lugano: I believe they inadvertently released more info then intended. Regardless, I believe they have been silent, because they are still trying to understand the results themselves. Thus, they are building their own LENR device. And note that they’ve had discussions with Parkhomov. We haven’t heard the last from them. Stay tuned. Just don’t hold your breath. It will still be a while.

        • GreenWin

          “Catastrophizing is an irrational thought a lot of us have in believing that something is far worse than it actually is.”

  • Observer

    It is not a question of being uncomfortable; It is just good business sense. I am sure Steve Jobs regretted bragging about the Macintosh operating system to Bill Gates.

  • US_Citizen71

    I have a different read on his comment. To me it is more like the answer a parent would give after being asked for the hundredth time ‘are we there yet?’, while on a road trip.

  • Sanjeev

    Well then, its perfect !
    Don’t trouble the genius at work. See the countdown clock, we don’t want it to count up.
    I too suspect that something has changed but whatever is their relation now, it all depends on the public announcement of the results of the 1MW customer. Neither IH nor Rossi will speak up before that.

    • Bob

      I am strongly convinced that the 1MW customer is Darden. Via one of his subsidiaries. If IH is no longer or never was in executive control of the eCat, there will be no public announcement. There were supposed to have been two previous customer announcements that never materialized. If IH is not in control, this will probably end up similarly. Going to the next design or improvement development and testing cycle with
      public info being released after….
      If IH is still in control, then I am more confident that an announcement will be made if the results are positive. If negative, we probably will not hear anything. I am very concerned that we have not heard even a single “still in progress, still supporting Rossi” release from IH.
      While I understand the need for durability testing, over unity has most certainly been factually proven or disproven by now. If not proven, then the process is so marginal that it would not be economical anyway. 6 months of COP > 6 would be ace of spades proof. (Durability would be an engineering process, not a new discovery process) This “must wait until customer gives me permission” cloak is a bit bogus. One, the customer most likely is a Darden owned entity and two, the customer would not have any say in whether Rossi could announce that he has a 6 month test proving that eCat is over unity or not.
      I have no confidence in the count down clock. We have seen it before. I am afraid that I must hope for a IH / Darden announcement. Hopefully sooner than later. Even a simple acknowledgment that the project is progressing would lend 10 times more validity to the eCat story than all the recent Rossi posts combined. “F9”! 🙂
      I also recognize Darden, Rossi or their cat does not have to tell me anything! It simply is that Rossi DOES, on his own accord, make public the very statements that cause these controversies. IH/Darden must be aware of this. In my experience with corporations, and (Darden seems to be very professional and experienced), most would shut down this pipeline. I.E. work privately. Some would control the “image” of what was being published. I.E. prepare the foundation for an upcoming major public announcement. Neither of these seems to be the case, which is another concern about the relationship and who is managing the project.

      • bachcole

        “I am strongly convinced that the 1MW customer is Darden. Via one of his subsidiaries.

        Sounds good to me. Of course, this would reduce but no eliminate the power of any announcement.

      • Sanjeev

        If IH itself is the customer then it will not add to the credibility of the E-Cat. If Rossi’s own partner says that it works, its only as good as Rossi’s own claim.
        Lets hope that the customer is someone independent and completely unrelated to them, and if the customer is a well known name, much better.
        I think the statements that they will not do anything at all till the customer approves it are an excuse, there is something going on behind the curtains. Just today Rossi answered a questions which reveals that they have manufacturing facilities ready. (I do not think anyone will believe a simple “yes” answer, but thats all we get from Rossi).

        • bachcole

          I already said that, Sanjeev. You need to keep up.


          • Sanjeev

            Yes, I wanted to add to what you said 😉

            • Bob

              My opinion that Darden (subsidiary) is the customer is based mainly upon Rossi’s own statements.
              1) Research is going on at the 1MW reactor site. – It is highly unlikely that a totally unrelated company would allow R&D of a possible nuclear device in their facility. Enclosed only in a shipping container none the less. The liability would be too great. It is almost inconceivable that this would be done at a true customerss plant. However, a Darden owned facility could very well be the R&D center for IH. Of this I am convinced.
              2) It keeps being stated that the secret customer is calling the shots about announcements. Again, an unrelated customer could not control the release of general product information. Certainly about who the customer is, where they are located or specifics about a contract. But they could not control release about, “yes the test has proven over unity, etc.”
              3) Darden is not saying anything about a plant even being tested. Even in his ICCF presentation, he did not state there was a test going on. Only the process of “looking into alternative power” concerning LENR. Originally, he did not even confirm anything about Rossi. Only later when specifically asked, he seemed to support some aspects of Rossi himself, but even then, did not confirm a 1MW plant or a customer. This leads me to believe it is being totally kept internal for the time being.
              4) Rossi tends to not be clear or sometimes exaggerates statements. He stated that the original Hot Cat test was a independent third party test. While partially true, most would not agree that it was not completely independent. The second test much more so, but again elements of “control” still lingered. HIs statement that the plant is at a “secret customer” certainly would not be surprising if it is revealed as a Darden owned subsidiary. It would still be “true” to some extent but most would not view them as customer. As you said, this would diminish the impact of any reporting but I believe would not completely refute them.
              I believe this test is for Darden, for Darden only and done in a Darden owned facility. Darden, seemingly a professional and cautious individual, is determining for himself the validity of the technology. That is what this test is about. If he becomes convinced, then going forward, the technology and development will be handled very differently.
              It is this future handling that may have driven a wedge between Rossi and IH. Rossi wanting absolute control and Darden stating things will be done his way? Just an opinion, but I believe a viable one that matches the clues presented.
              I truly hope that Darden is able to management the project and I also hope that Rossi reaps a very large reward for his efforts and invention. I truly think Rossi will receive a lot more reward if he let’s Darden manage the introduction of Cold Fusion to the world than if Leonardo Corp is holding the reigns!

              • Sanjeev

                There were rumors before that Darden/IH bought the plant. This is possible but at this time its a mere speculation. Its also possible that there are multiple relations like customer/r&d partner/licensee/investor etc.

                Rossi clearly distinguishes between a partner and a customer. I can’t recall anytime that he referred to IH as a customer. He took the position of CSO in IH. It would be odd to call his own employer (or its subsidiary) as a customer.
                IH/Darden has never hinted that they have the 1MW plant, I see no reason to keep that secret, when they already came out in open regarding Rossi.

                But I must agree with the issue of control. Recent statement from both Darden and Rossi makes it appear that LC is in full control and major decisions are being made by Rossi, not Darden.

                Of course, its all a speculation and we may see the situation clearly only after this 1 year long test, if….. nothing changes.

                • Omega Z


                  Consider Industrial heat as Venture Capital(VC)
                  The (VC)Industrial heat is an invested in Leonardo Corp.
                  Then you can envision a board of investors/owners/shareholders who have meetings to discuss the path or course to be taken according to information at hand at any given point. E-cat still being for the most part, R&D, things would be subject to continuous change.

              • builditnow

                I’m surprised that “we” e-catworld followers have not uncovered the location of the 1MW plant. “We” usually are good at uncovering such things. Perhaps we have no one in Raleigh / Durham to do some on the ground checking. Any pilots in the area? The plant does appear to be well hidden. Do people go from Darden’s / Industrial Heat’s location to the plant? Where does Rossi live and sleep?
                Is it worth trying to find out, what would be gained?

              • Omega Z

                Bob, Test runs of the X-cat is being undertaken in the control container. However, it’s development is taking place elsewhere. You use Nuclear in a scary manor. Keep it in perspective. This is not of the same nature your using it in.

                As to the Customer. I would be “Very” surprised if this isn’t someone of Industrial heats circle of connections. It is so much easier to keep a lid on this technology at this stage. Besides, Are you aware of Tom Darden having any facilities outside of an Office. I believe he is a relegator, delegator, contract it out kind of guy.

                If you want to run a Pilot plant, You can bet a Customer wants his say about what info is released. Curious people can be a major nuisance to normal business operations. It’s costly to deal with & how much can you save if you have to double down on security costs.

                As to additional product detail, That falls on Rossi/IH. Details at this point could be misleading. There are many issues yet to be resolved. That is the purpose of the 1 year test. Rossi surely has his opinions, but until the test is concluded, That be all they are. Opinions. Final conclusions may be different. Keep in mind that the Pilot plant is a Beta version. Not yet a final product.

                As to Tom Darden not making public statements. He has said he doesn’t like the task. However, there is plenty of evidence he is still strongly in support of Rossi. And Ultimately, What is there for Darden to say until the Pilot test is concluded. Anything he would say at this point would be premature & in his view, a waste of time better spent doing other things.

                This is after all, just one of many things Darden is involved in. His primary job is CEO of Cherokee Investment funds among a few others. If he did make a statement, aside from being premature, there would be those wanting followup statements on a regular bases. This would be a major distraction to his other obligations. So staying silent is in his best interests at this point in time.

      • GreenWin

        “Catastrophizing occurs when we look to the future and anticipate all the
        things that are going to go wrong. We then create a reality around
        those thoughts (e.g. “It’s bound to all go wrong for me…”). Because we
        believe something will go wrong, we make it go wrong.”

  • Sanjeev

    Its not convincing and has very little info, but I think its best to not to read too much in between the lines. His “angry tone” and “spamming” of comments is an everyday affair 😀

  • bachcole

    I didn’t get that at all.

  • bachcole

    I do wish that he would stop mincing words and come right out and tell us what he means.


    Seriously, when he says “spamming”, he does not mean that he is trying send emails out to obtain money from other people. He is saying that he is going to send those emails fretting about rumours into his “spam” folder.

    • psi2u2

      Exactly. He means that he is putting them in his recycle bin and not posting them.

  • Observer

    Or Industrial Heat owns a major or a controlling percentage of Leonardo Corp.

    • I asked Rossi several weeks ago if Industrial Heat LLC was a major owner of Leonardo Corporation stock, but he did not answer my question. He did answer an unrelated question, however. So, their exact relationship is secret for now.