E-Cat X Fix Requires Making New Material that ‘Does not Exist in Commerce’

After over a week of running the E-Cat X, Andrea Rossi’s new domestic E-Cat design, Rossi reported on Tuesday on the Journal of Nuclear Physics that it had, “burnt, as the first one”, but that they knew what the problem was, and how to fix it.

Today, Rossi explains that they will not be able to start it up again until next week, because they do not have a commercial source of the material needed to make the repair. Here’s his post to Gerared McEk on the topic:

August 20th, 2015 at 7:40 AM
Gerard McEk:
As I said, to repair the reactors and other parts of the plant now and again is the normality here, due to the fact that this is the first industrial real application of LENR in the History of technology.
We will start up the new E-Cat X probably at the end of the next week, because we have to produce a new material that does not exist in commerce to resolve the problem that popped out.
This attitude to make materials that do not exist is a legacy of a visit I made in the NASA concern od Huntsville, Alabama, during a meeting with their scientists: I saw their laboratory where they told me they make things that do not exist in commerce, because they have particular problems that cannot be resolved with the existing materials. I thought ” This is exactly the kind of lab I need”.
The technological characteristics of the E-Cat X will be published when the R&D on it will have been completed, and at that point will also be explained why it is more fit for household applications.
Thank you for your kind words,
Warm Regards,
A.R.

For a brand new product of this nature, it’s not at all surprising that you would have to come across problems as described here. When it comes to manufacturing this E-Cat X, it sounds like it won’t be able to be manufactured using easily available materials; there will have to be a means of making this new mystery material in significant quantities if there is going to be mass production of this domestic power product.

  • Axil Axil

    It looks like aluminum oxide has the same chemical character as potassium because of the superatom effect. Aluminum oxide may produce the same rydberg hydrogen formation function that potassium does. If Rossi is changing his tube material, he must add a potassium catalyst into his fuel mix. If Rossi reports a unsuccessful switch of tube material away from Alumina, then we know what he is doing.

    Al2O commonly exists as a gas, since the solid state is not stable at room temperature and is only stable between 1050 and 1600 °C. Aluminium (I) Oxide is formed by heating Al and Al2O3 in vacuo while in the presence of SiO2 and C, and only by condensing the products.Information is not commonly available on this compound due to instability, complex high-temperature spectra, difficult detection, and identification. In reduction, Al2O is a major component of vapors of Al2O3. There are also 12 valence electrons in Al2O

    One of the reasons why Parkhomov may be successful in his replication efforts is the presence of SiO2 as an impurity in the alumina tube that he uses. Together with Carbon, the pair of compounds creates a Rydberg Hydrogen Matter formation catalyst when Al2O is produced.

  • rocky172534

    i retract my last comment after rereading article.idiot(palm to forehead)

  • rocky172534

    first time I have been a little depressed about A.R. comment .material that doesn’t exist sounds like it will take a lot of time if at all.sure hope I’m wrong.

  • Andrew

    My best guess is that Rossi had mad an innovation that allows for a rapid start/stop as homes do not need 24/7 heat.

    • Michael S

      Start stop, possible with Classic gas/fuel appliance is probably quite far away – at least as long as AR/the regulator/we don’t really understand what’s going on. But a good sized boiler should allow to work with two (heating & warm water) low power cats working continously (winter two, summer one). A bit like heat pump. Anticipated weather data/ “many guest expected app” could allow to anticipate/fine tune power production adapted to needs. But maybe the team is really much further…

  • Obvious

    Rossi has mentioned very long delays for automotive certification several times. He apparently spoke to someone at Volvo about it. Many people want to do the automotive conversion. Many people probably will at some point. But getting an automobile with a factory LENR “engine” might be quite some time from now. How long such an engine might last will be a concern, of course.

  • theBuckWheat

    Improvise, adapt and overcome.

  • Jimr

    Somewhat off topic but can someone explain , by what methods the cat X can directly produce electricity. I am at a loss to understand how it would be accomplished without additional equipment.

  • Daniel Banks

    interesting, so looking forward to a time that we do not depend on a grid, but be grid less, unite and stop asking the glass ball it always points to undecided LOL

    • Omega Z

      Technology & economically, I think were going to see a grid for many decades to come. However, I wouldn’t mind a more localized grid. It sucks when your power is out & you have to wait for them to fix storm related damage 150 miles away. Followed by additional repairs 50 miles away & finally the local damage.

      Being local, Repair may only be a few hours away rather then 3 days. Done that before.

      I think what Rossi is envisioning is a CHP system that carries the base load. I don’t think the economics work for providing all your own needs to cover all peek demands. You also get back to waiting should you need a service repair.
      You call & say- My refrigerator is broke.
      I’ll be there Wednesday.
      Tomorrow great.
      No A week from tomorrow. But that’s good. It gives you a week to arrange financing.
      🙁

  • http://www.linkedin.com/pub/john-dituro/8/aa6/820 John Di Turo

    I process I had mentioned in the LENRConnects section maybe of use here. It is called Cold Tempering. A company in the Midwest provides this service. Basically they take metal parts and slowly bring the temperature down to 300 degrees below zero. Then slowly bring them back up again. At that temperature atoms arrange closing any gaps or cracks. The overall dimensions of the part does not change, however the part obtains 5x longevity. This would be perfect for improving the coils. Let me know if anyone needs the contact info.

    • Ted-X

      This process, if connected with compression (or “hammering”) may actually create a substance containing some BEC (Bose-Einstein condensate). In Rossi’s patent application he mentioned some “crushing” of nickel. Please note that metals are becoming glass-like (fragile) in low temperatures. The process would correspond to the condensation of liquid air and the compression would replace going to nearly 0 deg. K needed to achieve the BEC in the published papers. Compression and low temperature causes condensation of gases. In the field of metallurgy there is a “fringe” belief that compression may cause formation of unusual metallic forms (ormus and other forms; it is partly supported by some patents).

    • Ted-X

      My bets:
      1. The catalyst is the Bose-Einstein-Condensate made by cryogenic hammering of nickel, and not an exotic element. Tungsten is not used.
      2. In the new eCat-X, the heating/inducting wires are copper and he uses the principle of the inductive heating, that is a welding-transformer concept with rectangular or oval (toroidal) reactor/secondary “coil”. It is safer than the high temperature resistance elements.
      3. eCat -X does not generate electricity directly.
      4. Nanoparticles of nickel, suspended in hydrogen, are the main source of the LENR effect. These nanoparticles are formed from nickel carbonyls.

    • Omega Z

      In the Bearing manufacturing industry, that is called aging.
      The steel will shrink, but only by 1 or 2 thousandths of an inch.

      You have an inner race were the ID is to large by a thousandth, you freeze it for 30 to 60 days & shrink it to standard size.

      This may result in the outer race being to small, but you can grind the rollers a thousandth oversized to compensate.

      Alternatively, You can just let it set on a shelf for 20 years & accomplish the same thing. It really is aging.

  • Jimr

    Who ever felt the cat X would be ready by the end of this year ( as someone stated on this site) or even 2016, is in for a disappointment. It will be some time before it would be approved anyway.
    Also it appears the 1meg plant is having far too many problems to start shipping early next year. i think we are all in for an extended wait.

    • Axil Axil

      Didn’t Rossi say it will take 20 years to get a safety certification?

      Andrea Rossi
      August 14th, 2015 at 3:14 PM
      Paul:
      The excess heat is not the issue. The issue is the certification ( not less than 20 years).
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

      • Obvious

        That was for automotive applications.

        Paul
        August
        14th, 2015 at 3:03 PM
        Andrea,
        Could you run a e-cat X in the trunk of your car (Tesla, Nissan Lief, Volt,
        Toyota Prius Plug-in), or would getting rid of the excess heat be a problem?
        Paul

        • Axil Axil

          Isn’t the home and the auto essentially the same in terms of safety?.

          • Obvious

            The average home doesn’t zip down a highway at 120 k/hr, or crash into things at a statistically reliable rate.
            Although a giant battery in car that could short out, catch fire, and spew nasty chemicals really isn’t that much safer than an ecat probably.

            • Axil Axil

              It is true that a LENR battery is as safe as or even safer than a lead acid or lithium battery. Why would safety certification take 20 years?

              • Obvious

                Is it true? Nobody knows the long term effects of LENR.
                At least with batteries there are decades of experience, and things like runaway are still being looked at.

              • Omega Z

                “Why would safety certification take 20 years?” Government!

                You need better questions if you want to stump me…
                This was way to easy…
                🙂

            • Omega Z

              “down a highway at 120 k/hr”

              Huh. So your the guy that’s always holding up traffic.
              You do know some of us have places to be right?
              Anything less then 160 k/hr should be grounds for revoking your license.
              🙂

    • Omega Z

      Jimr

      That is one of the purposes of the 1 year Pilot test. To identify problems before mass production. It’s the Beta version.

      However, you need to fix the issues before shipping. Unlike software, updates after roll out are much more costly.

      They can’t be downloaded. Not enough bandwidth. 🙂

  • Axil Axil

    It is difficult to find a refractory material that can be used as a heater element at the very high temperatures that the XCat is running at. Oxidation will eventually cause the high temperature heater element to fail. One solution to solve this issue is to run the heater element in a vacuum like is done in an incandescent bulb where a vacuum protects the filament from oxidation.

    Since the XCat produces power without the need for heat transfer to a coolant, a vacuum bottle containment structure might be added to the design of the XCat. Such a bottle may not be available COTS and must be custom ordered from a vender who will produce the item as a custom build. I doubt that Rossi’s lab would manufacture this device internally as a custom build product.

    I told Rossi publicly how to solve this problem yesterday by using a ceramic oxide that can conduct electricity: YSZ. If Rossi is too proud to accept advice offered in good faith, let him learn the hard way as is his custom. .

    • Ted-X

      Inductive heating, welding-transformer-alike would do the heating trick, even using copper wires.

      • Nigel Appleton

        I can certainly melt steel with my tiny induction heater setup (provided the steel is well-insulated to reduce radiative loss)

        The copper pipe work coil is water-cooled, but barely gets hot anyway because said insulation stops the heat from reaching the coil.

        The bigger problem is dumping the heat from the MOSFETs and capacitors!.

        • Ted-X

          Are you using the high frequency approach or the 60 Hz welding transformer concept?

          • Nigel Appleton

            High frequency in the work coil via a resonant tank circuit, but overlaid with pulses of varying frequency and width by means of a PWM.
            I’m still learning about how to vary the frequency at the work coil

            • Ted-X

              I was trying to promote the idea of a “welding transformer”. It is undrstood in mechanical engineering and in the technology of melting brass and aluminum. There are two coils in a welding transformer: the primary coil with many windings and the secondary coil with a very few windings. For melting alloys (brass, aluminum, etc.) the secondary coil is really a single loop, short circuited by the molten or “to be molten” metal. It works at 60 Hz and is very simple.
              —– —– —–
              I noticed that this discussion list is populated by scientists with the background in physics with perhaps two or three engineers with practical orientation. This is the reason that the “concept of a welding transformer” heating seems to be not resonating or not understood.
              ————————
              This forum should attract more ENGINEERS with experience in electrical engineering, metallurgy, materials science, mechanical engineering, chemical engineering and process development.
              ————————
              I do not know how to attract people like that to this forum, but perhaps Frank, the blog administrator, could start a topic “How to Attract Engineers to this Discussion List”.
              ————————-
              In industry, we use processes based more on “Edisonian Approach” than on theories. Typically, process development goes from the lab to a pilot plants before a processing installation is built. It is a 90% Edisonian process.

              • Nigel Appleton

                Although a mere biologist, I believe I have a grasp of the principle of the “welding transformer”
                What is not clear (to me) is how it can be applied to the e-cat

              • Obvious

                Do you mean an arc furnace?

    • Michael S

      I don’t remember him writing it is only producing electricity and no heat ?

      • Axil Axil

        The XCat produces lots of heat, so much so that Rossi melted his tube. He might need to go to a tube with a higher melting temperature.

  • Curbina

    Whenever you are in new grounds of practical matters, this happens. Years ago we worked with high salinity culture medium for extremophile microalgae. There’s no commercial oxygen sensor for working under these conditions, so we had to create a whole work around to measuring dissolved oxygen under such conditions (20% w/v solution of NaCl).

  • Ted-X

    I think that he is after a toroidal ceramic “tube” for the “welding transformer” concept of heating the reactor content.

  • BillH

    Maybe that’s just as well, since AR can concentrate on repairing the 250KW unit. As for the E Cat X that’s just another +5days till OTS, as he might say.

    • Omega Z

      I don’t think Rossi actually builds the X-cat reactor as he is always in the container watching over the 1Mw plant. He has implied that the positive outcome of the pilot plant is vital to future plans, thus, the X-cat is of secondary concern..

      I believe he relegates this to others to build at his instructions.

  • Gerard McEk

    Yes, AR is pushing things to the limit. I am sure that you can buy exotic heating wires or or reactor tubes that are not off the shelf, if you pay for it and have direct contacts to suppliers. Now he has got more financial room for manoeuvre, he will do this to get the best results quickly.
    It is a pity that he did not answered my question why this very hot E-cat is more suitable for domestic usage and didn’t gave an indication of the direct electrical power output. As many of you I am very curious about that.

  • stefenski

    nanoX = nanomaterials

    therefore E-Cat X will be utilising nanomaterials

    probably stating the obvious

    • Gerard McEk

      Indeed also the new fuel material may be not on the market in the micro shape AR wants.

      • Nigel Appleton

        Tungsten hydride 😉

        • Warthog

          Tungsten (and tungsten hydride) was researched thoroughly by Irving Langmuir at GE Labs during his research into improved filament materials and fill gases for the incandescent lamp. Langmuir, an extremely careful and thorough experimentalist, was convinced that he had seen “over-unity” results in some of his experiments. He entered into correspondence with Niels Bohr, who convinced him that he had to be wrong, as over-unity “was impossible”. So Langmuir dropped the effort.

          Think of what the world would like today if Langmuir had ignored Bohr and persevered in his research………

  • Nigel Appleton

    I wonder if he means a totally new material, or an item made of an existing material but that doesn’t exist in the shape or form he needs it; so he can’t buy it off the shelf
    I find it a bit difficult to believe that anyone can conjure up a totally new material in a week or so

    Maybe one of the REALLY refractory alloys which would have to be shaped by powder metallurgical techniques, or by electrical or laser machining

    Interesting

  • ecatworld

    It sounds to me like they need to make a new material for a resistor. Rossi said the E-Cat X gets hotter than the old E-Cat, and now the E-Cat X has burnt.

    • clovis ray

      yep, that would be my guess as well.

  • clovis ray

    Hi, guys. i understand the process of building new things, something comes off the shelf, and a lot of things has to be constructed,modified, combined, and given new names, and the later, is one of the fun parts, i’m sure that nasa had a great lab, i truly appreciate a well equipped and safe work place, with machinery that can be used, to create new things.

  • f sedei

    Things are really becoming more sophisticated and complex. Not surprising in this world start up of new physics. New energy = new methods and means. Best wishes to Rossi’s endeavors.Also, affirmation to his ongoing relations with NASA?

    • ecatworld

      Rossi had dealings with NASA back in 2011, but I’m not sure if they have an ongoing relationship. Mats Lewan’s book records how NASA wanted to buy the original 1MW plant, but the deal fell apart when they wanted full disclosure of the tech before they made the purchase. Rossi wouldn’t agree and walked away.

      • f sedei

        Thank you. But, I’d bet they had unofficial “conversations” since then. LENR is too big for NASA to disregard totally.

      • Paul

        This is the public version. The reality followed to a private test was much worst, for NASA reputation, so I cannot go beyond.