Rossi on New Hot Cat [Update #5: 1350 C for 10 Hours, Self-Sustaining 80% of the Time (First Model now Broken)]

Here are some recent comments from Andrea Rossi on the performance of the new version of the Hot Cat that he is currently testing. Most recent information at the top:

UPDATE #5 (July 28, 2015)

Andrea Rossi has just posted that the first model of the new Hot Cat has broken down. He wrote:

Tom Conover:
As I explained in another comment on this blog few hours ago, the new Hot Cat has been destroyed, but we are making another with a correction that should resolve the problem.

It makes me wonder if the Hot Cat went into some kind of thermal runaway mode. Rossi says that over the years hundreds of reactors have been destroyed by one means or another, sometimes intentionally. His experience should be helpful in making the needed adjustments.

UPDATE #4 (July 28, 2015)

It looks like there are some improvements in the new Hot Cat design. I asked Andrea Rossi about the performance so far coming from the new Hot Cat testing:

Dear Andrea,

So far, is the New Hot Cat showing longer overall SSM times than the Classic Hot Cat?

Andrea Rossi
July 28th, 2015 at 4:06 PM
Frank Acland:
Yes.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

A response to another who asked about the maximum value of temperature the new Hot Cat can reach is more revealing:

Andrea Rossi
July 28th, 2015 at 4:01 PM
Gerry Carillon:
We reached 1380°C and resisted for about 10 hours at that temperature, of which 8 hours in ssm.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

I think this is the most detailed information we have yet received from Andrea Rossi about the performance of the Hot Cat. He has previously said they have been getting very long self-sustain periods with the Hot Cat, and this comment states that it was self-sustaining 80 per cent of the time during a 10 hour period. We can’t calculate COP from this as there is no information about overall power-in/power-out, but anything maintaining a temperature of 1380°C with no input power is certainly remarkable!

UPDATE #3 (July 26, 2015)

Andrea Rossi
July 26th, 2015 at 4:20 PM
KD, Paul:
Here is a first update.
Here the time is now 05.00 p.m. of July 26. The 1 MW E-Cat is stable and regular. The New Hot Cat has worked out his first day of operation and so far the components have operated well. The efficiency so far is the same of the classic Hot Cat, but I am giving Her time to assess all the components. Anyway: it works. How well it works has to be seen yet.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

UPDATE #2 (July 26, 2015)

The new model Hot Cat has apparently started up:

Andrea Rossi
July 26th, 2015 at 12:22 AM
Paul:
In this moment here it is 01.20 a.m. of Sunday July 26.
The new Hot Cat is just started. She is promising well, but obviously before saying anything worth to be listened is necessary a period of several days.
Warm Regards
A.R.

UPDATE #1 (July 25, 2015)

Andrea Rossi was asked on the JONP why he was so excited by this new iteration of the Hot Cat, when he has made many changes over the years. His response:

Andrea Rossi
July 25th, 2015 at 8:11 AM
Albert N.:
Because I made a revolution in it. It is a completely new thing that, by my calculatons, should ( SHOULD) improve the “classic” one. It is an attempt: if it goes, the improvement, in term of ssm, will be strong. Otherwise, it is a wrong idea. The only way to know is to make an experiment. The funny part is how I got this idea: after the hernia surgery, when I woke up from the total anesthesy I got through, I had to stay some hour in a room, with pain. I am used to overcome pain relaxing and focusing strongly in something; obviously I focused on a new reactor and it came out. Now we did it, tomorrow goes in action. We’ll see if she is an abort or a baby. If she is a baby, is a M.me Curie!
Warm Regards,
A.R.

It seems that while Andrea Rossi is monitoring the performance of the 1MW plant (all recent reports from him about the plant are quite positive), he is also busy with the development of the Hot Cat (high temperature E-Cat), a test reactor which is also being subject to a year-long test in the shipping container where he is working.

Rossi has recently stated that he has had an idea on how to ‘revolutionize’ the performance of the Hot Cat, based on data that his team has been gathering during its test run. Here are some recent comments he has made about the current status of the Hot Cat R&D:

July 24:

“About my “life in the container”: it’s now 09.20 p.m. of Friday July 25 where I am, and She is working stable.Sunday, the day after tomorrow, the new version of the Hot Cat will be put in operation too, and, honestly, I am very excited about it.”

Q: “1. How much time does it now take from start of the hot cat until it achieves COP >1?” A: 1- 1 hour circa

“We are trying to obtain a direct production of electric power [with the Hot Cat]. Just R&D so far, but we are getting something. I cannot comment further.”

“some hint of direct electricity production has been measured”

“Direct production, I can’t comment further. It could not work, as well as it could. This is just one of the many targets we have in program with the R&D upon this new concept of Hot Cat; the main target remains an ssm as long as possible, to raise the COP as high as possible. Production of electricity can anyway and without any doubt made by means of well known cycles, mainly the Carnot cycle. Direct production remains intriguing, though, and we have measured direct current exiting from the Hot Cat in some amount, so that we want to know better the issue. So far it is not technology, it is just a pursue of knowledge: ” Fatti non foste a viver come bruti…”

It does not sound then, at this point, that the Hot Cat is at a point where they can think about it being able to provide useful energy directly — but Rossi’s comment above about production of electricity being possible “without a doubt” using well known cycles is a strong indicator of the Hot Cat being able to deliver heat at high enough temperatures and COP for efficient electrical production.

To me it sounds like direct electrical production for a domestic unit is still quite a distant hope, but that using the Hot Cat to generate electricity via steam turbines is very probable. It’s highly unlikely that domestic reactors will be shipped with a mini steam turbine, but larger scale power plants could well use the E-Cat as a heat source. It will be interesting to hear what Rossi says about how the revamped Hot Cat performs.

  • Agaricus

    If the hydrate state is necessary then a gas hydrate slurry perhaps, such as methane hydrate (clathrate), or even CO2 clathrate. A metal hyrdate would leave deposits that could cause problems unless the metal is fully vapourised during the discharge, although perhaps this wouldn’t matter much during the R&D phase.

  • Mike Henderson

    Re: Massive Attack.

    Delusional? I want to believe in LENR as much as anybody but this just smells terrible.

    This is a guy who sits in a shipping box and who can scarcely write an intelligible sentence in English. Clearly he does not have staff or resources at his disposal. Massive attacks take organization, capital, charisma, and boots on the ground. There is no evidence for any of that.

    Edison was a rare breed – inventor + industrialist. The best of the rest (Jobs, Gates, Ford, even Musk to some extent) were masters of extending the ideas of others while marshalling the resources to make it big.

  • artefact

    Frank Acland
    July 30th, 2015 at 9:54 AM
    Dear Andrea,
    1. When you talk about a ‘massive attack’, does this mean making E-Cats available around the world all at once?
    2. Does the ‘massive attack’ involved first Industrial E-Cats (before domestic is available), or both at once?
    3. Will the ‘massive attack’ begin soon after the current test is completed (if positive)?
    Many thanks,
    Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi
    July 30th, 2015 at 11:11 AM
    Frank Acland:
    1- yes
    2- we’ll start with industrial that already are certified
    3- yes
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Bob

    Two observations follow. Both related to testing this “new model”, yet bring up very different questions.
    1) I believe it is said that Rossi is testing the new model in one of the “shipping containers”. He either has an extremely powerful air conditioning / air transfer unit or he is swapping out one of the reactors in the “multi reactor” 1 mw plant. Running this test with an air exposed reactor at this high of a temperature (1380) for 10 hours, would make the container uninhabitable if special air conditioning was not involved.
    If he is changing out a reactor module, then this would be kind of “messing with the customer”, which also relates to my final conclusion below. If the 1 mw plant is under validation testing, it would be kind of odd that one would be doing R&D on core components at the same time. What if a new design reactor malfunctioned in a large way and damaged and shut down the plant. The 365 day run requirement would be in danger! This continuous run time seemed to be such a critical test.
    2) It is a bit of a stretch to think that a “general customer”, i.e. an unrelated business entity to the IH / Rossi enterprise, would allow R&D of a new, unproven and possibly nuclear reactor on their premises. There is no confirmed theory, of which would assist in giving the likely hood of possible chain or run away reaction. Spikes in dangerous radiation have been reported in earlier tests at high temperatures / high COP. Would a customer allow such unknowns be conducted in a building with their employees at hand?
    Therefore a bit more evidence to support my previous conclusion…..
    The secret customer is almost certainly a Darden owned facility. Not that this invalidates anything, (other than gives the skeptics fodder) but it does tarnish the presentation. Why such a deal about “secret customer” and “customer requires 360 day run time” etc. etc. when the customer is actually themselves?
    Rossi’s statements normally are proven true, but most often not in the exact view that most initially read them. Rossi stated he had a “major US company” investing in the eCat. Industrial Heat is hardly a major company, actually a start up specific for the eCat. It depends on how you view it. The backers (Darden) of IH are rather big. But it is a stretch to call IH a major company.
    Rossi stated he had certification on the eCat. Indeed he did! But it was a safety certification that did not certify the eCat worked or even had a use. It simply stated that it was not dangerous under the provided circumstances. Yet his statement was validated, just not in a way most expected.
    The statements about not being able to release information about the eCat due to the “secret customer” does not quite bear out either. The customer does not own the eCat brand and design….. or does he?
    My point being this. Rossi’s statements normally bear out but not in the same view as many expect. I believe many will be disappointed when the customer is revealed. It will be a Darden owned facility, most likely of small size. Possibly even a building / organization that was newly created to test the eCat. I.E. was not even a production facility before.
    This will cause many to ask why the drama? Why the “secret mantle”. The customer CAN control all the strings on the eCat because the customer is Darden himself. Rossi can conduct R&D at the 1mw plant validation site because it is a Darden owned facility.
    This does not make anything Rossi has said untrue, it just casts a bit of a shadow over it. It will give the skeptics heaps of fodder to continue their blah blah. This does not invalidate testing, but it will cause many to suspect it.
    It is a bit of a shame as it seems it could be handled better. 🙁

    • Private Citizen

      “2) a stretch to think that a “general customer”…would allow
      R&D of a new, unproven and possibly nuclear reactor on their
      premises.”

      Point taken. Nor that security for the most disruptive cutting-edge research in the 21st century would be trusted to the back lot of some heat factory.

      Again, also curious that interests with $billion spy apparatus, who readily fight $trillion wars to preserve even a fraction of the energy market, must be far stupider than us, the clutch of geniuses who penetrate to the real Rossi truth here, to allow this go on in secret.

      • Omega Z

        PC
        The problem is to many have tunnel vision. First, the technology isn’t a threat until there is an industrial proven product. There are many technologies being worked on that could be considered a threat that aren’t for this same reason. Nothing yet on the market.

        Energy companies are looking for alternatives themselves. They know that it’s a matter of time that their current products are coming to an end. Big Oil for example. How many 40 to 50 billion barrels of new reserves can be found every year. In 40 years, their products will price themselves into nonexistence. The advent of LENR could actually prolong their existence.

        Why would Big business need to spy on Rossi. Check out the Cherokee funds & their connections. Many of those can merely call Tom Darden & get an update. What’s Rossi’s progress. Will it be 1, 2, or 3 years before it debuts. Think this is not likely-

        Consider those who are already aware of Rossi. NASA, NRL, Boeing, Airbus, Russia, China, India, Sweden, Norway, Etc, etc, etc,…
        The only thing that confuses people here at ECW is if all these entities are aware, How come so silent. It’s Simple. Agenda’s. They want to position themselves before informing the General Public.

        One Big Agenda is Carbon taxes. A little secret. Once a Tax is created, Like a New Government Agency, They are near impossible to get rid of. For the last Year, Certain Entities have been Screaming to get these taxes in place. It would be near impossible to get such taxes enacted once LENR enters the public realm.

        • Private Citizen

          “First, the technology isn’t a threat until there is an industrial proven product.”

          The US govt. has seized over 6,000 patents under the Inventions Secrecy Act. Not proven industrial products, just ideas. Industrial espionage is endemic worldwide. Not stealing finished products, stealing R&D. Conspiracy lore is rife with tales of oil companies buying up nascent competing technologies and just sitting on it. There are also less believable tales of inventors being killed to staunch threatening new tech, certainly there are many here who see a massive conspiracy to discredit P&F (i am among those).

          The argument about those aware of Rossi and withholding info to position themselves because, ah yes, their silence is proof positive of their great achievements, is a classic ad ignoratum. I just might have magic antigravity paint which i will not reveal. How come so silent? Ah ha, proof i have it!

          Of course it is possible to craft an unprovable/disprovable fantasy as to how Rossi has the goods and the govt. is allowing one rogue eccentric to develop it slowly, because something something carbon taxes. There is always a way to preserve faith in the absence of hard evidence. All i ask is the hard evidence.

          We’ll stay tuned here to see what develops.

          • Omega Z

            The “Manhattan Project” was something certain entities watched, but wasn’t considered a serious threat until the 1st successful detonation.

            Like LENR, it wasn’t considered possible by most(Including Einstein). Nor even among most of the participants of the project. A few thought that should a reaction take place, it could wipe out the earth before stopping. Others expanded on that to include the Solar system, the Galaxy & even the Universe.

            The Majority however thought that aside from the high explosive you would get nothing. Some thought maybe a small fizzle. Only after the successful detonation did any realize what they had accomplished many in awe & horror. And Oppenheimer stated- “I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.”

            I’m totally aware of the over 6,000 seized patents(Documented) & all the conspiracy theories(Most are BS). Are you aware that the Patent Office submitted Rossi’s technology for security review. Which is strange considering their stance on anything CF/LENR.

            As to TPTB, espionage & If they wanted they could take it. Over the last couple years, I have backtracked many of Rossi’s partners & associations. The “Question” you should ask yourself- Is Rossi already hooked up with the foot soldiers of TPTB. Many of Rossi’s associations would fall into that class. Industrial Heat is quite secretive in it’s membership. Just another strange element in the Rossi saga.

            • Private Citizen

              “The “Manhattan Project” was something certain entities watched, but
              wasn’t considered a serious threat until the 1st successful detonation.”

              Wrong again. Germans and Japanese had their own frantic atomic bomb programs. Soviets were 100% paranoid of the Manhattan project; Stalin reportedly received daily briefings.

              “Like LENR, it [nuclear chain reaction] wasn’t considered possible by most(Including Einstein).”

              Wrong again. Before the Manhattan Project even started, Einstein became convinced of the possibility of the critical nuclear reaction, authored and signed 3 separate letters lettering urging FDR to research and build the A-bomb.

              “In the course of the last four months it has been made probable — through the work of Joliot in France as well as Fermi and Szilárd in America — that it may become possible to set up a nuclear chain reaction in a large mass of uranium, by which vast amounts of power and large quantities of new radium-like elements would be generated. Now it appears almost certain that this could be achieved in the immediate future.”

    • wpj

      Temperature and heat output are quite different; it may only be a 1Kw reactor to test the theory.

    • Omega Z

      “an extremely powerful air conditioning” Is not necessary.

      The Hot-cats we have seen are the equivalent of a single burner on you gas range. A 12,000 Btu AC would be plenty to get the job done.
      It is not the temperature (1380) that is the issue but the total Btu output.

      As to the secret customer, I would be surprised “only” if it were not someone connected to or well known to Tom Darden. As to being kept secret, I can guarantee If it were I, It would be in the NDA agreement. I don’t need a peanut gallery checking out my business. It’s disruptive. Besides that, I don’t want my competitors to be aware.

      A safety certification is just that. It’s certified to be safe when used as instructed. Validation of the technology is a different issue that some may have confused with certification. Being of the nature it is, only a working product in the market will provide validation & even then it wont come quickly.
      ————————————-
      “I believe many will be disappointed when the customer is revealed. It will be a Darden owned facility,”
      ————————————-
      Possibly “some” will be disappointed, but that would be their own unrealistic expectations. However, I doubt it is “Dardens Facility” but quite likely someone from his circle of acquaintances. Darden is for the most part a business man that contracts work to other companies in his brown field projects.

      Also keep in mind that Industrial Heat is made up of 14 entities of which only 2 are publicly known. It could be anyone of those (Secret)entities that have a manufacturing facility. These entities exist as they are designated on the official paper work, but the names are withheld.

      As to the Skeptics, If what Rossi has works, They no longer matter with the exception that Rossi can use them to confuse his competitors. The only down side is he may also confuse his supporters. If the E-cat works, that also wont matter in the long term.

  • gregha

    “As I explained in another comment on this blog few hours ago…” I totally missed this, still can’t find it.

  • Nigel Appleton

    Induction heating allows the use of such temperatures – I’ve melted a number of bits of steel tubing with my (quite tiny) induction set-up.
    And, of course, the induction coil itself acts as a heat-exchanger when a coolant is run through it.

  • Agaricus

    Mills over-complicates things to the point of impracticality. The only thing that needed to move was water, and the bizarre contraption he came up with to move blobs of gel into the ‘firing line’ was always a non-starter for many reasons. It seems probable that engineering constraints will force him to adopt simpler and simpler solutions until he is more or less back to the concepts already explored by Stanley Meyer and others.

    http://waterpoweredcar.com/stanmeyer.html

    http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=536.0

    http://rwgresearch.com/open-projects/stanley-meyers-wfc-tec/stanley-meyer-wfc-water-injector-technology/

    My guess would be that he is now injecting water directly into an open reaction chamber containing a fixed catalyst, and discharging his welder across tungsten electrodes within the chamber – IMHO the solution he should have started with.

    Next he will probably be forced by very low efficiencies and waste heat problems to dump the ‘suncell’ lensing and PVs in favour of his original MHD generator idea, or even to use a semi-closed reactor design with a turbine in the exhaust.

  • Gerard McEk

    Reading about temperatures of 1380 C, I wonder what kind of heating coil AR is using. We all know that Kanthal A1 does not last so long even at much lower temperatures (1200 C). Would he be using SiC or isn’t he that advanced yet ;-)? Obviously, if only the fuel has this temperature then things may be different.

    • Bob Greenyer

      One of the Inconels we secured melts at 1430 – but no readily available, affordable resistance metals work at these temperatures for very long.

      The real problem is watts per cm The power has to leave the surface of the wire and bulk reactor temperatures may require a very high W/cm.

      But we may be overlooking something, depending on the geometry, the coil may only need to act as a balance/damper for thermal loss and a carrier of triggering/damping RF/Magnetic pulses. If the fuel is generating heat – which is the whole point, it could be that the centre is at 1380ºC whilst the resistance coil at a larger diameter could be running much cooler. This would be consistent with the “coil shadow” – presuming that was due to IR and not merely visible light.

      Note that in the early []=Project Dog Bone=[] experiments, the fin tips were 100ºC lower than the groves – radius, material and form matters as I am sure you know.

      Note that Kanthal A1, if able to radiate to free air, can manage 10 hours.

    • Ted-X

      The good doctor (Rossi) might be using my idea of the toroidal coil (generally, the welding transformer concept). The “transformer-toroid-short-circuited” will work on 50 Hz in Europe and on 60 Hz in the USA/Canada 🙂 The transformer concept is essentially induction heating of the short-circuited toroidal loop (in a welding apparatus, this toroidal loop would be used for “electrode-welding”), while the primary coil has several hundreds of single-wire “turns”.

      • Ted-X

        SUPPLEMENT: The primary coil could be even made of copper!

      • Gerard McEk

        Hi Ted, in principle I agree with your idea that a toroidal coil may work well, but there are some mechanical disadvantages. To make this with of ceramics with fuel is not easy. Because of that I would take the approach of Rossi and Parkhomov. Besides that I would obt for higher block wave frequencies and short high current pulses. (I am an electrical engineer ;-).

  • Albert D. Kallal

    Actually, that 80% figure does give some hints as to the “kinds” of COP Rossi is realizing.

    As noted, there has been “speculation” that the plant is seeing a COP of 20-80.

    If an e-cat reactor has a COP of 3 (say like the one from the 3rd party test), then if SSM is 80% of the time, then we talking about a COP of 15. However, if the COP is 4 times during non SSM, then we get a COP of 20. (this is based on assuming that SSM mode produces the same output as when feeding the core power – likely not an ideal assumption on my part). But thus we take the number as an “average” during the SSM mode for this discussion!

    Regardless, the above does hint that an “average” output of 5 times the input energy with 80% SSM will give a COP of 25.

    What the above mean means is the “rumored” COP of 20-80 does seem in the correct ball park for those of us trying to make an educated guess as to the COP the plant is producing.

    At such rates, this is an energy revolution.

    Regards,
    Albert D. Kallal
    Edmonton, Alberta Canada
    [email protected]

    • ecatworld

      I believe that the rumors of COP 20-80 have all been in connection with the 1MW plant, not the Hot Cat under test. I think that Rossi is testing a single Hot Cat reactor, whereas the plant is made up of multiple reactors, which Rossi have said work in a ‘synergy’ that allow for greater COP. That’s my best understanding, anyway.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Yes – a rather good and fair point on your part.
        Rossi did state that the h-cats have a performance “better” than the regular cats.

        I mean, if the h-cat is say in the 10x range, then in SSM we get a COP of 50!

        If a regular e-cat is say 5, then we get that COP of 25 with a SSM mode of 80%.

        And sure, the longer SSM mode is likely due to having lot of units working together.

        So sure, I would much state these numbers are speculative, but they do seem in the relative ball park of previous information “dribbling” out over time. In the search for truth, it is good to see numbers coming out that support previous claims and ones that make “sense” given previous information.

        The REMARKABLE issue here is that if hot-cats work as claimed, then they run well above the magic high temperature that allows water to become super-critical. Super critical water is important since no matter how hard you
        squish and pressurize the water – it remains a gas and thus has very little
        wear and tear on the turbine blades.
        Water as a liquid hitting the blades cases all kinds of wear and tear and loss of performance, and even promotes corrosion.

        As such, these hot-cat temperatures pave the way for large scale production of electricity via traditional steam turbines we use today.

        With such great news, then the only real “waiting” game left here is when commercial delivery of energy begins from Rossi/IH. In a funny way, it kind of like seeing the Wright brothers fly – ok – really works – now when can I go for a ride!

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada
        [email protected]

        • ecatworld

          Good points about supercritical steam, Albert. Yes, I think Rossi really likes to talk about his work, and share what he can. He really is telling us quite a lot. Some say he could be making it all up, but I have my doubts about that. In the end there may not be too many surprises for those who have been following the story closely. Others may be very surprised when it all comes out.

          • mcloki

            Supercritical steam changes everything.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    Well, it’s only logical that we see (big) improvements of the LENR process. I imagine that LENR may also be possible at much higher (3000C+) temperatures and possibly after startup can run in complete SSM mode 100% of the time.

    As we proceed discovering the effect, I expect all sorts of advances in the application of LENR as well as finding new functions.

    Having said all that, 80% of the time in SSM seems to indicate a very high COP. I would not at all be surprised if the COP will turn out to be 50+. Very exiting news.

    • Omega Z

      3000`C, I doubt it but-
      Please no. There is no good reason for temps that high.
      To start, there are few materials that can handle those temps & those that do have very short life cycles.

      Steam turbines run out of steam so to speak at about 900`C regardless what materials are used. Even Gas turbines have to draw in external air to keep the temps from being to extreme & damaging the turbines.

      Spinning a large mass at several 1000 rpm is 1 thing & quite another when heated to extreme temperatures. Things quickly become out of balance & start flying a part.

      There is research on Thermal to Electric conversion that may reach conversion efficiencies of 75% plus theoretically if they can find materials that can withstand temperatures between 1000`C & 1200`C. Of course, this is not of much use if it only lasts a short period of time.

      As to COP, We’ve witnessed what appears to be COP=3(?) with continuous power(Always on) & with SSM of 80% would indicate a possible COP=15. Given 1/3rd conversion efficiency would be 1watt in verse 5watts out. A Gain of 4. If 45% conversion can be achieved with higher temps(Above 700`C steam) could provide about 1watt in verse 7watt out. A Gain of 6.