Leonardo Corp. Looking to Sell E-Cat Heat at Customer Sites (Update: Rossi Confirms and Comments)

There’s an interesting find on the LENR-Forum today.

The Ecat.com website, which is run by Hydrofusion, a Swedish licensee for Leonardo Corp. in Europe, has a page on their website titled “ECAT Heat Energy” with the following information:

Leonardo Corporation now offers ECAT Heat Energy as a separate product solution. The ECAT plants are owned and operated by Leonardo Corporation while installed in the customers facilities or at a location in the vicinity of the customers facilities depending on local needs and infrastructure.

The ECAT Heat Energy is delivered by steam at 100-120 Celsius and extracted through the customers local heat exchangers. Return temperatures can be in any range between 5-95 Celsius.

Leonardo Corporation initially look for customers with 24/7 facility operation due to ECAT plants preferred continuous operation.

Please contact for quotes

ecat.com/ecat-products/ecat-energy

This seems to be a significant piece of news, since it looks like Andrea Rossi’s Leonardo Corporation has settled on a business model for selling heat. It appears that Leonardo will be selling heat, not E-Cat plants, and will be operating the plants on customer sites, or close to those sites. I’m sure one main reason for this is to protect the plants, to prevent customers from tampering with the E-Cats in efforts to discover secret information.

I’ve sent some questions to Andrea Rossi to find out more. I’m interested to find out where in the world these plants could be deployed. Industrial Heat, as I understand it, has licensing rights for the United States, and maybe there will be a similar arrangement in the USA. I’m not sure when these plants will be available, but maybe this is a sign that things are going well enough with the customer testing plants that they are preparing for deployment of plants elsewhere.

UPDATE: I have received the following response to my inquiry from Andrea Rossi:

“The service of energy sale will be supplied after the end of the tests on course. About the Territories wherein this service will be supplied, due information will be given when opportune.”

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Do you mean Oskar Schindler?

  • http://magicmusicandmore.com/ Barry

    Keep it up, maybe there’s strength in numbers.

  • http://renewable.50webs.com/ Christopher Calder

    “How China hopes to solve nuclear waste issue with hybrid fusion-fission reactor at top secret facility”

    http://www.scmp.com/tech/science-research/article/1840219/china-aims-get-hybrid-fission-fusion-nuclear-reactor-and

  • Albert D. Kallal

    This concept of selling what some new technology provides as opposed to selling the technology to the end user is not new at all. In fact this is TYPICAL of technology adoption.

    Recall many towns that just received electricity and that of refrigeration. Often in the central hotel or central market building you would find in the basement a LARGE commercial refrigeration unit and that would power “many” home sized fridge boxes that locals would rent out. In other words, you did not own your own refrigerator, but rented out one in the basement of a building.

    And we saw the same thing occurring when Laser printers and desktop publishing appeared for personal computers. Up sprung a whole bunch of business that had Laser printers that you would USE! So you would bring your document to that small business for printing. As Laser printer prices and desktop publishing software become wider spread, then MOST of these corner based desktop publishing and Laser printer shops went out of business.

    To be fair even today many a small business will STILL go to Office Depot or Kinko’s etc. for some of their printing needs. This is due to these “service providers” having equipment that is STILL beyond the practical needs and cost of small business. So parts of this “printer service” business model exist, but such providers are offering FAR MORE then JUST having a laser printer for you to print on. Thus these renaming business are nothing like the original boom that occurred in desktop publishing in which one could simply purchase a few laser printers and you are off to the races with a new business model.

    Rossi is really following the “same” above progression of technology. So if there not the technology for affordable home refrigeration unit, then you rent out some boxes that are cooled by your LARGER commercial refrigeration system in the basement of that commercial building.

    The additional beauty of the above business model is if next year you increase the performance of your system, then you reap the profits (not your end users!). In other words if your refrigeration becomes 2 times better (cheaper) then last years model then then you now can provide your services for HALF the cost, but in most cases you be charging the SAME price!

    And same goes for personal computers – as they dropped in price, you would thus benefit from the increased value of that computer (business ONLY purchase equipment like computers because they produce MORE wealth then they cost).

    So as a business, you are FAR BETTER off to own the technology, but only if such technology can be purchased at a reasonable cost.

    So with Rossi’ model, or other early technology examples, It is the provider of the server who reaps the most rewards, and even more so when the performance of whatever it is your service provides.

    So be it computers, refrigeration, or LENR, all have early examples in which it was MORE practical to SELL THE RESULTS of the technology then that of selling the actual system to the end user.

    This business model will of course change over time as the technology becomes more widespread. However given Rossi’s lead time, this model could be around for 10 years unless competitors can catch up.

    Of course many a business men seeing what personal computers could do for a business thus concentrated on looking for business that had not been computerized. You introduce computers and that business would often take off, or see very healthy profits. You could often easy double the value of a business in less then 5 years by adopting this approach. So you purchase a business for say 5 million dollars, introduce computers and the increased profits will EASY allow you to sell such a business for now say 10 million! Smart businessmen can EASY see how such math works!

    So many a market play for LENR will be smart businessmen that look for business that will benefit by such lower energy costs – however, you only going to get REALLY reduced energy costs if you’re allowed to purchase a LENR plant in place of the current model of purchasing the energy. In fact this allows the owners of the LENR technology to purchase business that would not be profitable otherwise! (huge oppoturitiines exist for such owners of new technologies).

    Remember the only real issue here is delivering energy costs for less then what competition can. The ACTUAL COST of the energy is moot!

    A good example is to imagine that a star trek transporter was just created by you. You could thus transport a person from LA to New York for say $5 of electricity. However, you NOT sell rides to New York for 20, or even $100?

    Why?

    Current flight rates from LA to New York (market value rate) is about $400. So you price you transporter “flight” rate below that cars, but STILL at current market rates! This is in fact how and why technology can make your business money (you reduce the cost of delving something at current market rates).

    The result is you NOT get a flight for $5 from LA to New York despite that being the cost! (you will pay near $300 dollars!!!).

    Until such time that you can purchase your OWN transporter is the time that your realize such lower costs.

    So LENR is in much the same boat as above – you will see reduced energy costs – but only a reduction that has enough incentive for you to switch and consume that energy. The higher profits margins thus be realized by who OWNS the heating plants. Such heat will be sold at near market rates.

    The only way you realize lower energy costs is as the technology becomes more widespread, and hopefully lower cost units start being sold to business as opposed to purchasing the results of the system from the owners of the plant.

    Regards,
    Albert D. Kallal
    Edmonton, Alberta Canada
    [email protected]

  • ecatworld

    I am pretty sure Rossi has said they have not gotten a gas powered E-Cat to work yet. The ones in the plant are all electrical, I believe

  • Sandy

    One application of the industrial E-Cat plants might be keeping Olympic-size swimming pools warm.

    • Bob Matulis

      Super for outdoor pools too. My son freezes the beginning of every swim team season. Cheap heat would do the trick.

  • Observer

    Would all of this be half as exciting if LENR was a well accepted technology?

    Did the Bloom Box (fuel cell) create this much drama?

    • Mats002

      No, there are so many different dramas in this story; FP/CF LENR alone is enough drama but add to that Rossis claimed progress that this world need more than ever and add to that active denial from official science and the classic David vs Goliath drama and the quest for replications and we, the peanut gallery makes it all alive every day. What did I forget?

      • ecatworld

        There’s so much more potential for changing the world with LENR than with the Bloom Box. Things we can’t even imagine now could be possible if the promise of the E-Cat bears out.

        • Observer

          Still, there will come a point when it is just another water heater or electrical generator.

          People tend to think that if it does not cost much it is not worth much.
          Especially if the did not have to sweat or bleed to make it come about.

          I fear the response to our “I told you so” moment will be a “what ever”.

          • Mats002

            You are probably right Observer. I was deeply involved in the year 2000 (Y2K) bug and I know from tests I witnessed at the heart of some of the most critical systems in our society that it was a real problem and to me a fantastic drama world wide. The enormous money and efforts to find and mitigate this bug – race against the clock – monitored by UN worldwide – was a success although to a high cost. What did people not involved say in january 2000? “Nothing happened, it was a consultant scam to earn money, that’s it”. Well things did happen but not much reached mainstream media. Enjoy the ride while it happens, I will.

          • ecatworld

            I think the goal for many people following LENR is that it does become ubiquitous and commonplace — as ubiquitous and commonplace as say electricity or the internet is today. We don’t normally get too excited about having power and an internet connection, but I certainly appreciate both very much.

          • Omega Z

            ->”there will come a point””People tend to think that if it does not cost much it is not worth much.””Especially if they did not have to sweat or bleed to make it come about.” “I told you so moment”<- Don't sweat it.

            I was helping a friend work on his car. I said your doing that wrong. You're going to break it & will have to go to town to get new parts.
            He said no I wont, I know what I'm doing… SNAP!!!
            He looked at me. I looked at him and said, Who's driving?
            Nothing needs to be said. They'll just know…

            • Observer

              That is why it’s an I told you so “moment”; In its purest form nothing need be said.

              However, those who have been martyred for this cause should be properly canonized.

              • Omega Z

                I agree, but History says we shouldn’t hold our breath.
                What was it 400 years before the church apologized for the Galileo thingy.

  • Paul

    The cost of the materials of 1 MW E-Cat should be, roughly, of the order of 50.000-70.000 euros or dollars, not more. So, with the current COPs the production costs of a prototype should be repayed in a very short time (a few months or less). This model of business, however, cannot be used on a large scale for many reasons. One is that every single protoype needs its different certification, not being a mass production; the other is that if this technology is prohibited for an accident before the plant will pay off, there would be a (potentially huge) financial loss; the third reason is that IH could be a target for the contrary lobbies, and it would be too small to survive an possible, if not probable, attack of some kind…

    • Omega Z

      Paul, I suspect your estimated cost is way to low at this time. I would put a 2 at the front end. Beyond that, fixing a price at this stage is premature as it’s a continuously changing device & we also have far to little info on what that final device will look like or consist of.

      As to the business model, I doubt this is it. This is likely an interim phase taken due to the fact it is to new & unproven. Rather then having a complex contract & being paid after a period of time, it is better to just sell the heat outright. An actual product sale can take place latter once the customer has built confidence in the technology.

      As to certification, There are different types. As long as the basic technology has no major changes, it is 1 & done. Another type of certification is after installation. Certain entities will certify that it has been installed as to federal/State/Local codes.

      As to your final concern, No one will take this boiler as a threat anymore then any other competitors product. It is merely a competitor to them at this time. By the time they realize what it really is, it’ll be to late. It’s then time for them to play catch up.

      • Paul

        1) Price. The cost of the materials of a 1 MW Hot-Cat (old design 2014) is around 50,000 euros, I know for sure this from an insider, so I guess that a low temperature E-Cat has a similar price.

        2) The business model. Yes, I meant that in this phase a sort of lease will be adopted, as the post is on this subject

        3) Certification. I agree. However, consider that also the space shuttles were all “prototypes” in a certain sense, I mean that they are different each other, so it depends on the certificator… it is a great responsability with an unknown technology that could (potentially, as in the first Focardi’s experiments or in sme Russian experiments on Ni-H systems) produce dangerous radiations (Neutrons).

        4) Not sure, the interests are TOO BIG! The E-Cat would destroy the whole traditional energy business. It would justify every action to stop Rossi and IH. I hope for them to find a bigger company with strong shoulders otherwise they will be wiped out from the lobbies. Please consider that Obama is pro-E-Cat, but what about the future President???

        • Omega Z

          ->The cost of the materials is around 50,000 euros.<-
          Material cost is where our views diverge. There is much more to cost.

          I had 4 tons of rock chips poured in a driveway. $4 a ton=$16 plus about $2 tax. Not to bad. But an additional $75 for the truck & driver to deliver & pour it which he did a pretty good job, but still, another $25 for the guy who helped me do the final leveling.

          In many products, Materials are cheap. It's all that comes after. If your manufacturing- Buildings, machines & equipment, office equipment, utilities all cost money as does it's continuous upkeep. There's also multiple business vehicles with on going expense, insurances & business travel expense.

          Office personnel: sales agents, purchasing agents, production management, secretaries, as well as maintenance people, delivery/setup employees. All need wages & health Insurance along with paid vacations. Not 1 of these people build product, but are necessary. Then finally, you get to those laborers who actually build product with their wages & benefits. Pension or match+ Social security costs.

          Add to this, Insurance in case employees get hurt on the job, Product liability insurance, warrantee costs, Taxes & a necessary profit if you intend to stay in business. There's also continuous R&D cost among other expense that have to be included. Just an idea of how 10 cents worth of material(Grain) results in a $4 box of cereal. My statement of adding a 2 in front of your numbers may be to conservative. Note there are many more expenses then those I've listed. All are part of the cost of the product. Materials are just a small part.

          The whole traditional energy business will not be destroyed. E-cat or not, It will just change. The transition will take decades. They have plenty of time to adapt their business model. Does Big Oil seem concerned with Elon Musk's Tesla or his Mega battery plant. No. They know that oil is limited & EV's are not their issue. The eventual depletion of viable Oil is.

  • Andy Kumar

    Bachcole says: “Everyone knows that I adore Andrea Rossi and that I believe in the reality of the E-Cat. But I would hardly call what he said about the military “pilot plant” a fact. It might qualify as an .89Xfact.”
    .
    Although I may disagree with the multiplier (.89) , I will thumbs up that. It is a bit hard to swallow that a *secret* military customer will buy anything after a very *public* demonstration. Bach seems to be taking a more cautious stance on this now a days.

    • US_Citizen71

      It happens all the time in military R&D, the program is public until it’s not. Then they look at you like you are crazy and imagining things if you bring it up. Take the F-117 stealth fighter as an example; it started public went black and then became public again.

    • bachcole

      I’ll be Bach. You be Chopin.

  • http://lenrftw.net LENR G

    We know that once Rossi and Cherokee formed Industrial Heat that they tried to and in many cases succeeded in buying out Rossi’s existing licensees. I speculate that Hydrofusion is more or less acting on their own here as one of the licensee holdouts. They may or may not be on ‘good’ terms with IH.

    I don’t think this advertisement by Hydrofusion necessarily represents any strategy of IH. IH has probably just given Hydrofusion some general guidance and a timeline (consistent with the existing licensing agreement) and Hydrofusion is trying to get some sales in their pipeline for the geographic area to which they have the rights.

    When IH finally decides to actually create a market for E-Cats or E-Cat heat it’ll be somewhat more obvious I expect.

    • Paul

      I think that the CEO of Hydrofusion is in contact only with Andrea Rossi and that Darden has never considered the possibility to interact with the Swedish guys. I know that he never replied to licensees who contacted him, not exactly a good behaviour for an apparent gentlman… but we know that at a certain level what matters is only money and power, nothing else, even if in their speeches they mention ideals and bla bla…

    • Omega Z

      LENR G
      Your probably close to reality.
      Rossi’s post seem to be of not being fully aware of this info initially.
      Likely this is more to do with Hydrofusion then anything else. As to buying out licensees, It appears only certain ones were targeted. Only those who didn’t quite fit in to Rossi’s criteria or a couple that were of questionable integrity. Like a used car salesmen.

      Note at the time this buy back took place, Hydrofusion was taking on investors to expand it’s involvement. Perhaps they are a part of the Leonardo concern. As I’ve posted before. There are many more entities involved then we are aware of.

  • Observer

    It is obsolete when they no longer sell the replacement cartridges (think HP).

    By the way, do you really want the coolest heater?

    • bachcole

      OK, I want the grooviest heater.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    The name “Industrial Heat” suggests that the sale of heat has been IH’s business model all along.
    I suggested this strategy (sale of energy rather than hardware) to Rossi three years ago.
    “You could sell electric power to cities, utility companies, and large industrial users. That way you could better protect your intellectual property. My small town (population 2,500) sells electricity to its citizens, but buys all its power from the grid. As you know, there are many small remote villages that use diesel generated electricity produced with diesel oil barged in at great expense . . . Some small island states could use your service without any bureaucratic interference.”

    Rossi responded by saying that “Our strategy is to sell the reactors, but your suggestion could become of actuality in future.”

    • Omega Z

      Iggy
      I would suspect this to just be an interim strategy. 1.) to protect IP until a patent is obtained. 2.) to finish up R&D by real world use.

      Any real deployment of this technology & money to be made is by licensing the technology.

      • nightcreature3

        Yes, but any money made selling heat alone, can help finance the overall commercialization of the e-cat, whichever path that will take. This is a very positive development, and it’s a pity that Iggy’s suggestion wasn’t taken up earlier.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Apparently we have a lot to learn about the contract between IH and Rossi.

  • Paul

    Probably Rossi can do what he wants for some countries where Leonardo Corp/EFA have still the commercialization rights. This is a smart move, because it will force IH to take a decision, whereas from the Darden’s speech at ICCF-19 it seemed a matter of years for better develop the technology… Rossi is becoming old and has no intention to wait years, but only months… There are many chances that the second plant will be in Europe, also to prevent possible lawsuits from the licensees having licenses expiring in this period, a potential legal nightmare for Rossi…

  • Bob

    ““The service of energy sale will be supplied after the end of the tests on course….”
    I am very puzzled by this statement and have mentioned it before.
    1) My understanding is that Leonardo Corp and IH are entirely separate entities.
    2) The 1 MW plant is a customer if IH, not Leonardo Corp.
    3) If 2) above is correct, the customer could put no restraints on Leonardo Corp. and
    what they might do with new and separate eCat heating plants. This makes no sense.
    4) The advertisement was on Hydrofusion’s site, a European entity. What could the 1 MW
    customer have to say about this? Nothing.
    Therefore…
    The “waiting period” is entirely a device created by Rossi and along side Darden perhaps. They probably want to be 100% sure about the longevity / durability of the reactor cores. This test is most likely has nothing to do with “positive or negative” as far as LENR is concerned, it is strictly for gathering data on life of product. I.E., if the plant produces heat at a COP of 15, that is great… but if it costs $750,000 to build and only lasts one year before major refurbishment, it may not be viable yet. So Rossi / Leonardo Corp is not going to take any orders for plant until they are sure that after 1 year of “real world” operation, the data projects the reactors will last “x” number of years. Otherwise, one could not establish a price point.
    I believe this test has nothing to do with LENR. Hopefully for Rossi / Leonardo Crop and IH, that is settled and truthfully MUST be even after 6 months of operation. 3 months for that matter! What is being determined now is reactor durability / life cycle. I cannot believe it has anything to do with the “secret customer”. The customer is probably a Darden owned facility that is being used to test the commercial viability of a eCat powered boiler.
    Hopefully this is the case as it makes much more sense that “the secret customer will not let us make one statement about our technology” !!! And it would mean that the technology is even further along that many might expect…… production prototype being put to real world testing.
    Keeping fingers crossed.

    • ecatworld

      I agree, Bob. I don’t think they have any doubt that LENR or the E-Cat works. Someone decided that a year-long test was needed. I know that Rossi is very curious to find out how long a single charge on this plant works. I think they are hoping that one charge of fuel will last at least one year, but they don’t know for sure yet. That will be important information once they have plants in the field.

      • kenko1

        ‘ I know that Rossi is very curious to find out how long a single charge on this plant works.’

        What if they find out, with all the recent developments and discoveries, that it dosen’t need a recharge? LOL An Energiszer Cat instead of a bunny!

    • Mats002

      Let’s speculate that each single E-Cat loose balance intermittently and need a special gifted human brain to trim it back to balance and that not yet any computer algoritm or trained AI network can do it. Then the cost of plant and fuel is not the obsticle for business (F9), but operation cost is. How many special gifted people are needed to re-balance fallen cats?

      • Omega Z

        Such issues as you mention will be taken care of by the control system. Of course, you need to know what those issues will be. Thus a 1 year test to find out. R&D…

    • Omega Z

      Bob
      The “positive or negative” is of the overall test. As you post- the durability etc and also much to learn about the control hardware/software.
      Many tend to forget that the Pilot plant is a part of R&D. I’m sure Rossi has a list of to do’s & revisions for the next 1Mw plant. Likely this list will increase as the test progresses.

      • Uncle Bob

        The ‘pilot plant’ was sold to a secret military customer three years ago and performed to specifications. We know this to be a fact because Mr. Rossi said so in response to questions a number of times.
        The only thing different in this latest variant is the control electronics, and systems control electronics is a very mature area of expertise.
        I’m wondering if there hasn’t been some divergence in the Rossi/IH partnership and so Mr. Rossi is looking to spread his options.
        From earlier announcements it sounded like IH were the controlling partner in all areas and aspects of the e-cat development and implementation, but now it sounds like there are other entities back in the mix, including Leonardo Corp, which I thought had sold all its interests to IH.
        All very strange and on the face of it, just a little contradictory to previous announcements.

        • bachcole

          The ‘pilot plant’ was sold to a secret military customer three years ago
          and performed to specifications. We know this to be a fact because Mr.
          Rossi said so in response to questions a number of times

          Everyone knows that I adore Andrea Rossi and that I believe in the reality of the E-Cat. But I would hardly call what he said about the military “pilot plant” a fact. It might qualify as an .89Xfact.

        • kenko1

          “The ‘pilot plant’ was sold to a secret military customer three years…”
          The plant performed flawlessly ??? And they only want one??? After three years of successful operation I would think the military would want hundreds , if not thousands by now.

          Do they just build one tank? One stealth fighter? Have just one base???

          • Mytakeis

            They mastered reverse engineering. Only needed one. My opinion.

        • Paul

          According to Rossi the buyer was US Navy (as also in an old post published on this blog), but according to a my US source (SPAWAR) they did not buy E-Cats. So, my conclusion is that it is only a story, probably US Navy was interested like NASA, but also NASA did not make agreements with Rossi…

        • Omega Z

          I consider the Military(NRL) ‘pilot plant’ to be more of a proof of concept.
          So when I speak of pilot plant, I’m referring to the 1 on the customers premises. It is the 1 that involves on going R&D.

          As to the former, I consider that to be a fact, but not because of Rossi says, but more a confirmation from a competitor who also had a device under test by the NRL. As to that plant, I think people give it to much emphasis. It was never meant to be put to use, but studied. Probably by now it has been dissected, studied, crated up & in some huge warehouse never to see the light of day. Like in the movies. That sheet really exists. I have a relative who could confirm this tho he’s not to speak of it. All those crates are full of car parts…

          As to Leonardo Corp, Made up of Multiple entities as is Industrial Heat. Industrial Heat lists 14 entities of which only 2 are known. Curiouser & Curiouser. As I’ve posted before, this involves many people & is much bigger then many are aware of. It includes many in positions of power & influence.

          You have Boeing, Air bus, Siemens, NASA, & a whole list of entities who’ve had contact with Rossi in some form or another. WE can’t be 100% certain of what Rossi really has, but there are a lot of major entities that are watching closely. They haven’t written him off.

  • Teemu Soilamo

    So, I can’t be the only one to whom this has occurred… heat as a service wouldn’t technically validate the E-Cat as a working product since anything could be inside that “black box” operated by the Leonardo Corporation.

    • US_Citizen71

      You are correct but the customer won’t care, if it saves them money.

      • bachcole

        Your economic insight is no better than Teemu’s. If the E-cat is bogus, how does Leonardo Corporation pay for the energy that they supply to the customer at a deep discount. They would go belly up very quickly.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Yeah, but it would be a troll in the larger sense.

    • bachcole

      Not quite. If the E-Cat was bogus, it should be obvious to the most casual economically enlightened observer that Leonardo Corporation would quickly go bankrupt.

      (I’m think that you may be a liberal.) (:->)

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Please explain why is he a “liberal”. (: I agree he is misinformed.

        • bachcole

          Liberals seem much more interested in how things should be and not very interested in how things actually work.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Those damn libruls with their green agendas and renewable energies. Drill, baby, drill! YEEEEE-HAW!!!

            Yeah, I’m liberal. I’m European and not a stereotype type person.

            You’re supporting innovative green energy. Are you sure you aren’t a liberal?

          • Bernie Koppenhofer
        • Mytakeis

          Political leaning should not sway very much, the availability of getting free heat in your clutch.

      • Ryan

        How nice of you. I could say derogatory things about conservatives but I don’t think I’ll bother sinking to your particularly low level.

        • bachcole

          Conservatives seem much more interested in how things actually work and not very interested in how things should be.

          (:->)

          It is all about balance.

          • http://magicmusicandmore.com/ Barry

            If we could take this kind of polarity and harness it we wouldn’t need the Ecat. America is so deeply polarized, makes me think it’s time we try to open-mindedly try to understand one another. Our country would grow as a result.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Yes, it would. It’s called “trolling”. What do you mean by liberal? Compassionate and smart?

        • Omega Z

          “Compassionate”
          As in if they disagree with your point of view, they should be shot or imprisoned. Doesn’t sound at all Compassionate to me.

        • bachcole

          I have never seen a working definition of “trolling”. How would the E-cat be trolling?

          It is not smart to try to make government too compassionate since all taxes and all laws are not voluntary. Love CANNOT be coerced. I am 110% in favor of compassion. But government is an agency of force. It can never be the one doing the compassion. Liberals want to be charitable with other people’s money.

    • Omega Z

      If your putting 1Kw of energy in that “black box” & getting 10Kw out, do you really care whats inside. Perhaps it’s some super battery that outputs 10x the energy put in. In which case he could patent that & still be a hero. Oh wait. It appears that’s what he has done. Give him his patent.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Yeah, I do. Because nothing else than a working E-Cat could sustain growth for very long.

  • ecatworld

    So it seems that this announcement by ecat.com is to get people thinking and interested, but nothing will happen until the 1MW test is over. If the test turns out negative, everything will presumably go on hold, but if it is positive, they will have an idea of the amount if interest out there and scale their production accordingly. According to AR, the outsourcing arrangements have already been made.

    • georgehants

      It is I think clearly irrelevant to Cold Fusion if Mr. Rossi’s test does not totally live up to hopes. 320 days out of 365 or whatever it is.
      The cat is out of the bag, he would not have kept going this long if there where any doubt of it’s possibilities.
      The World is Cold Fusions oyster and as we see re. Iceland etc. many hands are already working, not counting the usual black funded conspirators.

      • bachcole

        I agree, sort of. A positive result will accelerate the LENR Juggernaut even more than it is already moving. But it is now moving and it is now unstoppable and we will be seeing more replications as time goes on.

  • malkom700

    This step be a final blow against the opposite interested lobby groups. Let us remember that introduction the first freezer was delayed fifty years.

    • Mats002

      You talking about tyy, Maryyugo and those times silent Pomp?

      • malkom700

        Maybe so but in this case the investigating bodies will be a lot of work.

  • Observer

    One advantage of this arrangement is that early adopters do not get stuck with obsolete equipment.

  • georgehants

    The chances of Russia, china and North Korea not developing their own Cold Fusion is zero.
    Stalin was being updated daily on the Manhattan project by American spy’s and the British where clever enough to sell them a license to manufacture the Rolls Royce jet engine.
    Cold Fusion is not a difficult breakthrough once the magic formula has been found.
    Rossi only in recent times has developed further than the most basic working device, since when it has been virtually hidden.
    Once that basic formula is generally available, thousands will be working on the subject Worldwide and hopefully the poor will get their share, unlike with so many other technology’s and drugs where only the rich gain.
    Viva Cold Fusion.

    • Omega Z

      “thousands will be working on the subject Worldwide”

      I’m sorry George. I have to disagree. They wont delve into something that does not exist. Saddly, Even after IH/Rossi put this to market, it will take a while for their beliefs to change. Perhaps offer them a cup of Tea. Followed by a refill.

      • Mats002

        Thousands already work on the subject, we see only the tip of the iceberg IMHO.

        • Omega Z

          I doubt there are Thousands. Hundreds more likely & only working indisputable products in the market will change that. Most of those involved are of a lone wolf nature that may affiliate with a loose fit pack, Like MFMP. Which can make it appear larger then it is.

          Even those like NASA, Boeing, Air bus have small skeletal teams involved. However, comes the time, they can scale up faster.

    • Mats002

      I am afraid that for the first time you are behind the development 😉

      • georgehants

        Mats, Ha, for once as I put “I think” I am allowed to speculate, therefore I cannot be wrong on something that cannot be known until the clear Evidence is available.
        Time will tell and then we can buy whoever is right a nice glass of red.
        Only those that think their “opinion” becomes a Fact after they say it, or do not clearly state my “opinion” or “I think” are half-wits, which of course is most of science. 🙂

        • Mats002

          Ok, until next time GH…

  • deleo77

    I think this has to do with the inability to get a patent. Don’t let anyone else take ownership of an e-cat. Just sell what it produces. Put a lock on it and don’t let anyone look inside. Other companies have employed a similar strategy.

    • Stephen

      It could also be a good strategy to distibute the technology. If a company or municipality is just buying the heat they are not taking risk with the equipment. This could be important when the technology is new and not yet widely accepted.

      Andrea Rossi and his team could for example offer this as an initial purchase and allow them to purchase the complete unit later once it is established and more widely accepted, by the company boards and local government representatives.

      I suppose purchasing the heat at a under the general market rate would be attractive to those organisations and would be a good source of reveniew for Industrial Heat.

      • Omega Z

        Yes, what you post while at the same time protecting the IP.
        Also a good starting point while unknown issues can be learned & fixed.

        • Stephen

          Yup and distribution in scale would give more opportunities to test verify compare and update and give a much larger data set for future analysis.

          Getting the orders in now means they can prepare and hit the ground running in Spring next year hopefully.

  • Sanjeev

    Sorry if it sounds negative, but the licensees of Rossi sometimes act like a herd of cats. They publish strange things, which Rossi later denies. It would be good to ask him about this.

    This will become the news of the year, if true. It appears as good as a commercial launch.

  • Stephen

    If cheep and simple under road heating in winter might be a good application and improve safety significantly.

    I wonder how much hot water that would translate to a day?

    • US_Citizen71

      Simple math…if the average tap water temperature of 13C is the input temperature, then 1 MW of continuous heat would produce 11.49 litres per second or about 993,103 litres per day.

      • Stephen

        Wow that’s a lot of hot water!

  • oceans

    so now we have a new business model where you can buy your heat from a vendor, at prices much lower than your utility company.

  • Daniel Maris

    Hmmm – well that IS interesting… 🙂

    If this is genuine, it seems to mark a significant step forward.

  • Asterix

    100-125C steam, it would seem to me, isn’t very suitable for distribution over a distance. Those pipes lose quite a bit of heat and a customer expecting “dry” steam may instead, find himself with little more than a trickle of hot water.

    Does Leonardo have a demonstration site for this–or do they intend someone to sign up based on a “good idea”?

  • Mats002

    In Sweden we have district heating, heat pipes digged down under the roads, going into a lot of houses. Each district equals a business case for retrofitting oil or garbage burning plants.

  • Bob Greenyer

    In india – they have solar powered AC systems using ammonia. Here is a company.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz-kquRmvqk

    and the process is explained in this dodgy vid

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7mFtVzDpjE

    Basically, part of the cycle requires heat to boil NH3 from water – the process temp from the E-Cat would be perfect for this and would mean he could provide cooling and heating from one plant.

    • Omega Z

      Heat absorption chillers.
      These have been around for a very long time. The problem with these systems is that they are very expensive. Thus (1 of) the reasons we developed & use compressor driven cooling systems.

      You will find these in use today at large meat packing plants & cold storage facilities etc… At very large scale they can be economical. Of course at industrial scale, everything needs to be built very robust regardless what system you use thus eliminating any advantages of a compressor system & gaining the advantage of using N-gas that is much cheaper then electricity.

      Note that (NH3)Ammonia is the most efficient chemical for this purpose & is certified for Industrial use as only qualified personnel will be involved. An (NH3)Ammonia system can’t be used in residential unless separated from living quarters. It is very toxic & deadly. Thus you must use an exchanger system to transfer the cool air to the home.

      There are other chemicals that will suffice, but they aren’t nearly as good. Just safer & require larger systems to obtain similar results. Last I checked, no one manufactures anything smaller then a 5-ton residential system priced at about $30K cash & carry. The air-handler & evaporator system etc, is all extra$ as is installation costs. The primary system is about the size of a side-by-side refrigerator. Note they still require about 700 watts to operate plus the blower motor at the evaporators coils. You’ll easily use 1Kwh per hour operating.

      The cost of this system hardware alone would exceed my lifetime cooling costs. We must always keep in mind the economics of the system. It’s not what we can do. It must be practical.

      • Thomas Kaminski

        I got a quote for a 10-ton (35 kW cooling capacity) Yazaki lithium-bromide absorption chiller for $US23k in 2009. Lithium bromide is typically used on absorption chillers for HVAC use. Typically absorption chillers are used when there is an abundance of waste heat from an industrial process along with a need for cooling. An inexpensive source of heat might change the economics. Most commercial chillers are in the 100 to 300 ton chilling capacity.

        These devices require essentially no maintenance and pay off in the long run with reduced maintenance costs. There are few companies who make small, residential capacity units — about 5kW is the smallest I recall.

        Link to Yazaki device: http://www.yazaki-airconditioning.com/fileadmin/templates/pdf_airconditioning/data_sheets/FT_WFC_SC_SH_10_en.pdf

        • Omega Z

          “10-ton (35 kW cooling capacity)” or 120K Btu’s. Redundant. Just kidding.

          An Ammonia system is more efficient, but deadly thus the Lithium-bromide. There are other mixes as well.

          Yes, As I stated, in large industrial use, they can be economical & the minimal maintenance has a lot to do with that. Which is related to there robust build. That & the N-gas in place of electricity.

          Once upon a time, I did HVAC and a little bit of everything else. My partner had a side contract $80K a year with a major meat packer. I personally have little hands on experience with it, but I studied it.

          I spent much time studying many things over the years with the Idea of a minimal maintenance low cost home. I finally determined you need an underground home designed for flat lands. You start like a basement, berm it up with a single above ground structure. Piped in light, false windows(OLED screens) & you only need to condition the fresh air flow. Even most of that can be done with heat exchangers.
          By piped in light, I’m not referring to sky lights. This technology exists & can be economical. OLED hasn’t yet been economically scaled up.

  • http://bobmapp.com.uk twobob

    In England we have the Palace of Westminster.
    That heats up All of the country.
    But It ain’t Steam.

  • http://bobmapp.com.uk twobob

    I would see the Dutch having a use for steam.
    They do grow a lot of stuff under heated glass.
    I am fairly sure that that is a 24/7 operation.

    • ecatworld

      Greenhouses, yes — how about a laundry?

      • Omega Z

        Laundry? YES.

        By Low Energy Nuclear Reactions.
        They be radiated “bacteria/virus” free.
        Obviously we charge extra for this service.
        (F9) My disclaimer… 🙂 Advised by my Lawyer…

  • oceans

    clearly Rossi plans on taking an early lead over Brillouin Energy, players now jockeying for the position.

  • oceans

    clearly Rossi plans on taking an early lead over Brillouin Energy is what this is about, we have players now jockeying for position.

  • wpj

    If they could use Dowtherm and get to 180C, then there would be hundreds of chemical plants that could use it.

  • Bob Matulis

    This same model is used for solar generating systems. Solar Energy Companies own and operate the solar panels on a customer’s roof and the customer fee (presumably less than grid energy) profitably pays for the system. This approach would help keep the technology proprietary yet get it out in the “real world”.
    BTW, there are a lot of Universities I have surveyed that use a LOT of steam.

    • Bob Greenyer

      The whole of Moscow and many eastern european cities have common building heat.

      Right there is a MASSIVE market.

      One guys house I visited in Moscow, had a 100kw gas boiler (It was a big house and it gets real cold).

      • Curbina

        Just by chance I just watched again the movie “The Saint” yesterday and one major plot theme was exactly how energy dependent is Russia for home heating in winter. The lack of gas had people burning furniture, and a political crysis for the same reason. I’m sure Russia could be a market if the price is good.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Moscow is massive – it is a Monster of a city – and it’s community heat infrastructure is collapsing.

          There is a very large fortune to be made in that one city.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Very wise – A swimming pool is a perfect candidate – as suggested many moons ago.

    • Stephen Taylor

      Yes, boil and add 100 pound tea bag please.

      • Bob Greenyer

        hahaha – classic – that’d show them.