1 MW Hot Cat Plant to follow Current 1 MW Plant

If you are wondering what Andrea Rossi might be doing after the current test of the 1 MW plant is over, he has just revealed at least one new thing we can expect — a Hot Cat Plant. Today on the Journal of Nuclear Physics he explained:

The Hot Cat 1 MW plant is object now of designing. We still do not have a prototype.
After the end of the test on course in the factory of the IH Customer ( F9) we’ll start the construction of a Hot Tiger.

Later he said more about the name after he was reminded that the Ukrainian ‘Tet’ group had already used the ‘Tiger’ name:

Andrea Rossi
June 16th, 2015 at 9:11 AM
Ecco Liberation:
Thank you for the information.
As a matter of fact, “tiger” will not be the name. The name will be simply “E-Cat” followed by a number that will correspond to the power in kW. Example for the Hot Cat of 1 MW it will be: E-Cat -HT 1000, where HT stays for the series with high temperature. For the low temperature series, it will be “LT”.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

He also commented on the same thread that they were going to try to scale up the Hot Cat reactors to 250 kW each, as they are now apparently doing with the low temperature E-Cat reactors in the 1MW low temperature plant. (Which I think actually has a potential 2 MW capacity, because from what Rossi has said, and the pictures we have seen, it seems that 4 250 kW reactors have been added to the 100 10 kW ones. He won’t confirm or deny that, however.)

  • V.p.S.

    Just dropping by after another half year… As far as I remember there was a prototype 1MW e-cat already installed at customer’s place. Any news about that one? Are there currently any predictions as for the customer test report that would be publicly available?

    • ecatworld

      I don’t expect we’ll see it this year. I hope in the first part of 2016 — but we really don’t know what kind of publicity they will give this report.

  • Gerard McEk

    I agree with you Jim, but see my reply to Robert Ellefson in this tread about my concerns about the Ecat efficiency which may depend on the process gas/flued temperature.

  • Omega Z

    Probably there will be upgrades to the LT E-cat design based on the data collected. I would guess at least 6 months before additional sales of the LT-1000 start & this will take place with little fanfare.

    In time when this makes the MSM, it will be done in the context of a new technology that is highly efficient. If COP comes up it will be like, You know. A Geothermal heat pump. It produces much more heat out then Electricity in.

    Only way this is a “Big Deal” is if Industrial Heat // Tom Darden wants it to be. At this point in time, It’s probably not in their best interest. Just putting product in customers facilities is all that is needed at this time. They can quietly build business relations & partnerships without a lot of fuss & fanfare.

    Most everyone following this technology crave for a huge news conference & all the buzz. That would be great for them. It is not necessarily great in a business sense.

    Demo’s, Show & tell tours, News Conferences all require large expenditures of man hours & money. Do you want that or would you prefer they spend all that time & money on the next major advance that actually gets a working product to market.

  • Roland

    1. Due diligence, i.e. reading the extant literature starting with the links at the top of the page, will assuage the doubts of any open minded inquirer.

    2. You assume Parkhomov, and, of course, Lugano is a special case, and yes, we are not fully informed.

    3. Rossi, whom most observers deem to be very bright, has been thinking about your concerns for decades and is as many miles ahead of you here as he is in many other regards.

    4. It is not a matter of whether what has been revealed is factual, our information is incomplete for good and compelling reasons, again Rossi is miles ahead of you. Blackrock was in the first hundred downloads of the Lugano Report, the Saudis changed strategy, the banks bailed on their carbon assets and the price of oil crashed; you’re wondering if anyone is paying attention? Hello…

    5. See above.

    6. See #1.

  • Omega Z

    “I don’t know of any other technology that has ever developed this way.”
    Apparently not much of an observer of life…

    Aside from that, Presently, IH/Rossi have no patent. That could change but ultimately, The Hardware can always be patented & portions there of covered by copyright. Note also that a patent only provides a small window of opportunity. Apples patent’s didn’t stop others from patenting & marketing Smart Phones of their own…

    All Rossi/IH need to do is get all their Ducks in a row before going to market. Properly done, this provides about a 2 year window of opportunity. Much like a Patent from the beginning would have provide.

    The Competition? This will involve those with big bucks. They will also require technology/hardware that can be patented/copyrighted. They will also need to run 1 year pilot plant tests. They will also need to go through all the safety certifications & regulations. This costs big bucks. It takes time.

    So, while a primary patent a couple years ago would have sped things up, Today it isn’t that important. It is well beyond that point. It is for the most part about a business plan & a window of opportunity. Rossi/IH have always expected competition.

    What we have here is a FUD Fail…

    • Warthog

      “Aside from that, Presently, IH/Rossi have no patent.

      I suspect that they have quite a few patent applications “in process”, especially for the “HT” technology. I am certain that there are MANY “pesky little details” that have to be gotten “just right” to get the demonstrated high energy output and high temperature. All such are “just what the doctor ordered” for building a patent fence around the tech.

      • Omega Z

        Yes, Rossi has said many patents have already been filed for reactor designs & such since joining with Industrial Heat. If you can’t patent the source, patent the most efficient hardware/software Etc….

        These patents shouldn’t be an issue as LENR itself is.

  • Gerard McEk

    So let us think about what you can do if you produce heat of 1200-1300C. What can you do with it? The only thing I can think of is a heater for producing ‘super heated’ steam. But for that you need to pre-heat to make stam of water. Would you use the same plant for it? No, that is probably ineffcient (it would cool-down the hot cat too much and reduces the COP). So for that you would need an E-cat plant. Maybe that a combination of E-cat and Hot-cat pants and make electricity with it with a big genator. That’s the only thing that would really fit the purpose I can think of. All other purposes I can think of seem to be ineffcient. Maybe you have other suggestions?

    • Axil Axil
      • Gerard McEk

        Yes, but you need quite high temperatures for water dissisiation (>2000C or better >3000C to do it efficiently), so AR needs to do some additional development for that.

        • Axil Axil

          If you read the reference: 800C.

    • Robert Ellefson

      There is no reason that the reaction temperature needs to be the same as the process heat being exported. If the temperature is too high for an application, the appropriate combination of thermal flux and thermal impedance will render a resulting temperature of your design. For example, the explosion within an internal combustion engine is very hot, but the radiator water remains below 100C because of a combination of the amount of water constantly flowing and the thermal impedance of the cylinder walls. The same principle applies to nearly all applications of heating.

      • Gerard McEk

        In comparison to other power stations which use a steam turbine, only the Ecat suffers a reduction of efficiency (as a primary power source) when it is cooled down due to the process gas/liquid. That is a small disadvantage I see, that may be not easily be solved. One of the ways to tackle that is the multi stage approach (E-cat – Hot cat) I mentioned above. Maybe Andrea has another possibility than adding heat -like EM stimulation- to keep the cats at the required temperature where the longest SSM (and efficiency and stability) can be achieved (Axil would say that you can do that with the mouse), but I do not know. When Andrea has this other (than temperature) stimulation possibility, than we will soon see the birth of an E-cat power plant.

    • US_Citizen71

      You could heat air in an aviation turbine engine for thrust. Direct conversion to electricity can be accomplished more efficiently with TEGs at higher temperatures. If the TEGs are efficient enough you could power the reactor and a turbine to blow air across the assembly. With Rossi’s background with TEGs my money is on them being the direct conversion process being pursued.

      • Omega Z

        TEGs are no where near efficient enough as yet. However, Gerard’s concerns are unwarranted. The technology to alleviate it are already in use.

        • US_Citizen71

          I understand that, I just want to build my own cloud city held aloft by LENR turbine jets. 😉

          But, seriously I have been looking at TEGs for use in a fireplace insert I am thinking of building for myself. The TEGs would provide power to fans to flow air through an in firebox heat exchanger as well as fans to circulate air around the outside firebox to increase heating efficiency. All powered by TEGs on the flue. It is amazing the progress that has been made in the field of TEGs in the last few years.

          http://thermoelectric-generator.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/CMO-32-62S-OXIDE-ONLY-new.pdf

    • Ted-X

      A two-stage loop system would take care of the high temperature. The heat can be transferred to a larger volume of a medium (water?) kept at the operating temperature of the electricity generating turbines. High temperature is not a problem.

      • Omega Z

        Yes. Just like a Nuclear power plant. E-cats have most in common with them Fuel rods or LENR rods. Without the radiation concern.

    • Omega Z

      Gerard McEk
      You would use a heat exchanger similar to a Nuclear Power plant.
      You could heat liquid salts that boil water for the steam. Your ready to produce electricity.

      Of the various power plants, Oil, Gas, Coal, Nuclear- E-cats are most like Nuclear. Of course Nuclear is the least efficient in electricity conversion, It operates at much lower temps for obvious reasons.

      They are built in a very robust fashion. Extra thick containers to minimize risk of containment failure & at lower temps for the same reason. Primary Fluids(about 500`C) from this containment vessel heat secondary fluids(about 290`C to 300`C steam) to power the turbines.

      E-cats/LENR plants wouldn’t need all the bulk & shielding of radiation. Primary Fluids could achieve 1000`C+ and secondary fluid/steam output could be about 650`C to 750`C. Your conversion efficiency could be 45%+ verses traditional 28% to 30% for a Nuclear plant. Such plants should be cheaper to construct then traditional power plants. And you would need fewer of them. About 1/3rd less.

      There are reasons Power plants are built in the manor they are & highly centralized. LENR plants would negate all of them. Thus they can be built much smaller & more local. All creating large cost savings in addition to the cheap fuel source.

      • Gerard McEk

        You are right, with higher temperatures you can reach better efficiencies, but you still need a wider temperature difference to get that high efficiency. With a proper control loop you can avoid under heating and over heating of the individual Cats with the flued or gas feed-back loop. It will not be easy to control and not cheap either.

  • Thomas Kaminski

    The quad copter problem is much simpler since there are very good aerodynamic models to predict the system behaviour. In the E-Cat case, the absence of a good model (maybe Rossi has one) is a detriment to modern control. As you mentioned, it took years to develop good models for nuclear fission reactors. Another problem is the inherent delay from the source of heat to the measurement of heat in the E-Cat. Delay is a bitch for control. In the case of quad copters, changing the motor controllers from 80 updates per second to 400 updates per second has a dramatic effect on system stability.

  • Agaricus

    Why not just assume for the moment that they do “have the best interests of humanity and science at heart”, and that verification has been carried out to the best of the abilities of those involved, even if the methods used were not perfect. This and the other quibbles you mention have been kicked around endlessly before by those watching this story.

    The truth will out, as they say, before too long. In the meantime it hardly matters what doubts you, I or other contributors here may have – we are just observers on the sidelines. Enjoy the ongoing mystery while it lasts!

  • Agaricus

    We have seen it. But I agree that discussion of possible future e-cat plants is very speculative until testing of the E-Cat LT 1000 has been completed.

    • Omega Z

      With the understanding that the 1 year pilot plant test goes well beyond just overall COP, There are still issues that could arise.
      That Rossi & his team is contemplating an HT-1000 prototype would indicate to me that the LT-1000 is preforming well. To this point anyway.

      It’s obvious to me that if they were having major issues, they would not have time to perform additional R&D on the Hot-cat & consider building a 1Mw prototype plant. I also don’t think Tom Darden/Industrial heat would be up to funding such a prototype if results to date aren’t very encouraging.

      Note: We could be looking at a very soft roll out here.
      No Big Reveal. LT E-cats will be revised/upgraded & quietly sold in the market. This will require an increase in personnel. Word will leak out.

      – – – On World News Tonight – – –
      There is a new advanced technology that is very efficient. It still requires gas or electricity to operate, but is very efficient. It is 1 more new green technology for the future. Thanks to Government funded R&D. (add the alphabet/omit COP talk)
      END OF STORY.

      It will garner no more attention then something like Bloom Energy.
      No one will ask about or why the P&F fiasco took place. People in power will not have to explain themselves.
      Those of us that should speak up about the facts are just Conspiracy nuts.

      • http://sifferkoll.se Sifferkoll®

        Agree. Soft rollout is in both Rossi/Darden and BigBank&Oil interest. Rossi need time test and produce products without big media spotlights (as Darden also talked about). The rulers needs time to exit current huge stakes in oil&gas in a controlled manner. They consequently will continue to insert doubts in trad. media without totally deny as long as they can since that is most profitable and geopolitially safe. These are mostly valid reasons I believe. I wrote a piece about here: http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/blackswanascending3.pdf

        • GreenWin

          Thanks Sifferkoll for insight on banks and oilcos reaction to LENR. The exit for these players appears to be available for another 6-9 months. After the HT1000 prototype results go public, that exit will close.

          Utilities are also feeling the crunch. Wall Street is preparing for the inevitable death spiral of electric utilities – first from solar/storage then from LENR.

  • Jimr

    I am sure Mr Rossi is not the only employee of his group. I believe he still has his 12-15 others. Can they not start the construction of such a devise. I am becoming (after four years) to think Rossi is a master of procrastination, I hope it is not to deceive.

    • Jarea1

      I also think so. He is delaying and delaying the product to the market. Here there are many that excuse him, but he already said many things about the home ecats he wanted to sell and unfortunately, i am still waiting for them. Besides, there is still not mass acceptance of LENR and a real product would provide the prove for everybody even all the pathoskeptics. I want that product Dr Rossi and i want it now.
      Will the 1MW plant change something once it is finished? I fear that Rossi or IH will put again another excuse and tell us that this is a private product and the company will decide if they allow visitors or access to the measurements data or not.
      In the end, will this 1MW plant change something if it is a secret?
      I would like a clear statement of the roadmap and the purpose of the 1MW plant.
      Moreover, i would like to have an independent stament of the customer and i expect that the customer is a big company which we can trust. That would give a lot of credibility to Dr Rossi. If that is not the case, then we will have waited 1 year and the pathoskeptic will still be negating and negating… i

      • Sophareth

        During this time, TeslaEnergy of Elon Musk is solding its Powerwall home storage Li-Co battery for 10 cents per kilowatt hour and right now only at 5 cents/Kwh.

      • psi2u2

        One is obliged to point out that Dr. Rossi is not required to produce something just because “I want want [and] I want now.”

        While you are waiting, study some English. Normally I don’t care how people speak, but when they are bad mouthing Dr. Rossi, I think they should at least know how to do it in something resembling correct English. Rossi will do what he does when he does it. You are not his keeper and he is not yours.

        • Omega Z

          psi2u2
          They have watched to many J.G. Wentworth commercials. It’s My Money and I Want It Now. ROF LMAO.

          • psi2u2

            Well put.

        • guga

          You should not criticize somebody here because of his English language skills. You don’t know the other person’s background.
          No matter if you like what the other one says or not. Or maybe it is even worse if you complain about it just because you don’t agree with his opinion.

          • psi2u2

            You’re absolutely right. I shouldn’t. And you shouldn’t criticize Andrea Rossi. You don’t know his background, or what he is doing. You are speculating, and offer “critique” based on your personal subjective hopes for something. Rossi doesn’t owe you anything.

            • Jarea1

              That is not true. This is not about criticize Andrea Rossi. Please focus on my message and about the facts that have been happening. The previous facts are not speculation. And i think it was clear that what i want is the product so that we can really show LENR to the world. It was not a personal attack. And you don’t earn anything by body-guarding in that way.

      • Omega Z

        You Fear?
        “this is a private product and the company will decide if they allow visitors or access to the measurements data or not.”

        You should pay attention. Rossi said this from the beginning. It is a private company & they will determine who will be allowed to visit the plant. That only a SELECT FEW will be allowed to visit the plant. This is a common practice. It is a place of Business, Not a Recreation Park.

        As to the Home E-cats, They depend on data that will be collected from the industrial units. I think Rossi thought it would be a simpler process, however, being a new unknown technology, the Government will require substantial safety data before consumers can have them. I am not the least bit surprised.

        As to what Rossi says. Sometimes he misspeaks. However, there is also much attributed to Rossi that he never said. It is not Rossi’s job to monitor the internet & correct people’s assumptions or intentional twisting of the facts.

        Industrial Heat has their own Business plan. Probably it is quite different then what anyone else may want. Doesn’t matter what others want. It’s there’s to do with as the see fit.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Actually, I do agree it is frustrating. It often feels like we are watching paint dry!

        I also think that in the last 6 months we seen amazing progress. The improvements in just months (not years) are beyond amazing! So everyday we actually hear BETTER and BETTER news.

        One of Rossi’s greatest advantage is FEW people believe him! This buys Rossi/IH huge time in the marketplace. Without any other players, then there no real sense of urgency to bring a product to market exists! Rossi has NO competition right now!

        If only Brillion could make a product announcement – but they are likely 2-3 years behind Rossi.

        And I do think the current plant is really near market ready. They simply never run such a plant for a year, so how can they even tell a customer how much the plant will cost to run on a yearly basis! They simply cannot tell the customer what the costs are going to be – and thus a very hard sell!

        And if the hot-cat is so much better, then much like purchasing a smart phone today, you would NOT be very happy if one month later a cheaper, better, faster and lower cost phone came out from the SAME vendor! So some fear does exist that the hot-cat plant could cause some further delays in the bringing this product to market. On the other hand Rossi has mentioned that a “list” of buyers already exists for the current setup.

        The “funny” issue here is Rossi/IH don’t need nor really want much press – since no news means they have more time to build a better product!

        And I would LOVE if some customer invited people to tour their plant – but again if I was running a commercial greenhouse growing food and using 1/10th the energy cost of every other company in the area? I would be CRAZY to announce this! Let those other silly business figure out how to save money! You see, once the other business adopt LENR, then my cost advantage will disappear! Why would any businessman with a brain tell competitors how to save HUGE energy costs? I can slightly under cut everyone for several years until they grow some brains and adopt my business practices.

        So even assuming next year that sales of the e-cat start to occur, it will have to be a “booth” at some energy or industrial heating conference that will REALLY set the world on fire so to speak.

        And as for cost savings and numbers? Oh, I suspect you just have to read the product brochure! – the cost numbers will likely be used as a great selling point!

        PS – your English seemed just fine to me!

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • oceans

      There is no delay Rossi has told everyone over and over again it will be January 2015 February at the latest.

      • Jimr

        I am aware of that. But is it not possible to start another test until the present test is completed. I’m sure they can afford an additional shipping container. I believe IH is offering no guidance to Rossi and are only funding him.

        • Omega Z

          Jimr

          People who have worked with Rossi will tell you he is not a procrastinator but a continuous innovator. While they test out a design, he has already made advances. Example, Here is what we found in our tests & Rossi says all well & fine boys, Now test this one.

          If you notice in the thread, They are now starting to design a 1Mw Hot-cat prototype. Your question seems to be why this hasn’t already been done. That would be because the Hot cat has been under going R&D advances. Simply, It wasn’t ready until now.

          Many months ago, I pointed out that the Lugano reactor appeared to be a 3.5Kw reactor tho many including myself had speculated about the 10Kw hot-cat. About 2 months ago, someone asked Rossi on JONP what was the most powerful Hot cat he had produced. SURPRISE- 3.5Kw. There hasn’t been a 10Kw Hot-cat prior to the Lugano test.

          Note that the Lugano reactor/Dog bone whatever you choose to call it, is nothing but an R&D device. Not a product. And Rossi has stated a couple times, what they learned from the Lugano test has led to many advances & changes. We now hear him speak of 100Kw, 250Kw reactors. Rossi has always shied away from these in the past. Obviously, He has learned a lot since Lugano.

          • Agaricus

            We are only ever seeing the tip of the iceberg – as it was some months ago in most cases.

          • EmTee

            Call me pedantic, but please write kW and MW not Kw and Mw….:-).

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt#Multiples

      • pg

        I ll be back!!!

    • builditnow

      What would you do if you were Mr. Rossi?
      If I were Rossi with a 2 billion fund behind me (Cherokee Investment Partners), I’d work hard to develop products that were so far ahead of everyone else, that those competitors could not catch up. I’d also be going for certification and for a production cost as cheap as possible, all before the public wakes up.
      I’d keep an eye on experimenters and consider bringing them into the fold when they make progress.
      When I have all my ducks in a row, I’d covertly assist these experimenters to have success, that way, I (as Rossi and IH) can avoid being the subject of as much public interest, I can put this attention on to the experimenters.
      I (as Rossi) can then “be cool” and play hard to get to the media. I’d have a certified product ready to go in volume. I’d say “buy my product”.
      When will IH and Rossi consider they are ready?

      But, I’m not Rossi, so what do I want. Well, I want LENR sooner rather than later.
      How can we do that?

      It could be up to us to push things along.

      The way for us to get LENR devices sooner could be for more of us to run experiments so that we eventually get a successful formula for a reactor many of us can reproduce. Those that can’t do the experiments can back those who can. Those that can but need backing can ask for help.

      So, who wants to run experiments and need help / support?

      Who wants to support the experiments?

      How do we facilitate the connection?

      • pelgrim108

        I think the guys that are experimenting with hho, bedini motors, joule thieves, Stanley Meyers tech ect. would be the first to be interested in glow sticks. They already have most of the needed equipment, and have no problem with PID control cirquits.
        I think that it would speed things up if there was a youtube video of somebody making and operating a glowstick.

  • pg

    T1000 is the villain from terminator 2! let s hope the e-cat HT1000 does not follow the same path!!

  • http://renewable.50webs.com/ Christopher Calder

    “He also commented on the same thread that they were going to try to scale up the Hot Cat reactors to 250 kW each” Yes! Now we are talking.

    • http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/ barty

      Now we need a scientific usable replication…

      • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

        more and more people start to think that rossi manage a careful uncertainty to block opponents and competitors…

        I don’t think this is a good strategy, as being the leader while the success is clear would give him a big advantage and a big funding…
        Today he is the dry leader of a desert.