Rossi: Conducting R&D for Direct Electricity Production from Hot Cat [Update: Rossi has said E-Cat Gives ‘Electrostatic’ Charge]

There was an interesting question and response on the Journal of Nuclear Physics yesterday regarding the production of electricity from the E-Cat.

A reader asked:

Dr. Andrea Rossi, the thread of research to arrive to produce electricity directly insid the E-Cat has been abandoned?
Mathilde

Rossi responded:

Mathilde Posas:
No, it has not been abandoned, and I am working also on it in the Hot Cat that we put in operation inside the computers container, here in the factory where the 1 MW plant is working for the Customer of IH.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

This is very interesting news. If direct electricity production can be realized it will make the E-Cat much more versatile and compact. Ross has said that ‘so far’ the Carnot cycle is considered the only way to produce electricity efficiently — which would involve adding on bulky, expensive and complex turbines. We don’t know how this R&D will turn out, but it could be a very significant development.

We don’t know how the E-Cat could produce electricity directly, and I am sure Rossi won’t provide details, but remarking on this development, Hank Mills says, “”The most obvious source of electrical power could be the magnetic field of the fast moving alpha particles. If a portion of their KE could be converted to electricity instead of heat, a significant amount of output could be produced.”

Rossi has a lot of time on his hands in his shipping container, and I hope he can give this effort lots of attention. It could turn out that the home e-cat as a heater and generator is not as difficult as once supposed.

UPDATE: Here is some information from Andrea Rossi from a post made here on August 7th 2014. Hank Mills asked these questions and got answers from AR:

Could you please tell us a little more about the electromagnetic fields detected from your device? They have nothing to do with the upcoming report which is only measuring heat production, so I hope you can share just a bit of info. For example:

1 – What form of EM fields are you measuring? Magnetic? Electrostatic? – electrostatic

2 – Where are they detected? Inside the reactor? Outside? – outside

3 – What is the strength of the field in Tesla, if it is a magnetic field? – see 1

4 – Is it pulsing or constant? – pulsing

  • Jarea1

    Jousterusa
    how are you?,
    i hope you are well and you are fighting!
    I wish you the best.

  • jousterusa

    You say, “it will make the E-Cat much more versatile and compact.” And immensely more valuable, because it delivers power for free.

  • malkom700

    It’s very correct remark, because there are many competitors who can any time overtake IH and get this historic primacy in industrial exploitation LENR.

  • Axil Axil
  • Axil Axil

    Can you discuss what some of the challenges are in going to a gas-fueled eCat compared to an electricity heated eCat?

    For example:

    1. The difference in time constant between the application and removal of heat between electric heating and flame?
    2. The difference in heat transfer for gas-fired versus direct electric windings?
    3. The difficulty in providing adequate ventilation for gas-fired system (incoming air)?
    4. The difficulty in exhausting the exhaust products?
    5. The energy efficiency of gas-fired (how much energy goes up the chimney)?

    Rossi responded:

    None of them.
    The problem is deeper and has its roots in the core of the know how. It is not a problem of heat exchange or of heat conservation. Otherwise, it could have been already resolved.

  • Axil Axil

    http://phys.org/news/2014-06-laser-like-1000x-power.html

    Could the mouse be a poloriton laser? A highly efferent laser has been developed that produces coherent light that uses electricity as a stimulant. In his Mouse, has Rossi developed a deep infrared polariton laser driven by EMF? At one time Rossi was developing a natural gas driven reactor where natural gas combustion produced heat for his reactor. But that design did not work. The heat produced by the gas was not coherent.

    The Hot cat reactor has an alumina shell that is transparent to infrared light in the LENR reactive range. Could the Mouse be producing light that gets through the alumina shell of the Cat to stimulate the Cat?

    The light produced by the Mouse can be tested for coherence by using Spectroscopy. If the line produced by the light is monochomatic, that is, produces a single sharp line in the spectrograph, the infrared light is coherent.

  • Axil Axil

    Regarding:”To this , Allan Kiik has asked:

    So, if Rossi is telling the truth, does this put down the ideas about any kind of quantum condensate or spin-glass forming as the basis of the reaction”?

    In his blog comments, Rossi tells us that the “Mouse” and the “Cat” are two separate fueled modules. Only the mouse receives input power. Rossi also tells us that the mouse stimulates the Cat. The Cat produces almost all of the power since the Mouse has a COP of just over 1.

    The question that is central to this method of stimulation is as follows: “How does the Mouse stimulate the Cat”. I would dearly like to see an experiment designed to answer this question. I feel that there is new physics involved in this stimulative process.

    I believe that the “mouse” is producing a “quantum condensate” that somehow is affecting and stimulating the Cat possibly though the transfer of coherent heat energy. These energtic bursts in power are at the very core of Rossi’s control problem. The Rossi reactor module that receives input power seems to be susceptible to extremely energetic bursts in the LENR reaction produced by discontinuities in the AC current that drives the input heater.

    Open source replicators have seen these bursts blowout their reactors when these reactors have a full fuel load. However, when the fuel load is significantly reduced to 1/3 of the standard fuel load, the bursts seen are contained by the structure of the reactor. It seems that the way power is applied to the reactor affects how the LENR reaction behaves.

    Rossi has found a way to overcome this problematic blowout behavior. When the Cat is stimulated by the mouse, the LENR reactor does not burst and a blowout does not happen. The Mouse acts as a kind of stimulation filter to mellow the effects of the EMF stimulation. It may be that the heat produced by the mouse is coherent. Heat applied by a flame is most probably ineffective in stimulating the LENR reaction.

    I am interested in seeing how this Mouse and Cat stimulation process works and therefore hope that an experiment is configured to explore this issue.

  • Axil Axil

    It was apparent to some of us some 10 months ago that the Cat was basically just a cartridge with a fuel charge. It is activated by the mouse.

    Omega Z • 10 months ago
    This electrostatic pulse occurs during both the drive mode and self sustain mode at high temps.
    Curiously, It is detected only in the Cat reactor, Not the mouse.

    As I understand it, The Cat has no resistance heaters. It is basically just a cartridge with a fuel charge. It is activated by the mouse.

  • Omega Z

    From Rossi-
    The electrostatic pulse occurs during both the drive & SSM mode.
    Takes place only at high temps.
    Is produced by the Cat, not by the Mouse.
    And apparently from his description, takes place outside the fueled reactor core & inside the reactor shell.(Somewhere in between)

    My question would be is it worthwhile to harness. Generating a few watts. why bother. Would tapping into it stop the effect. if so, you wouldn’t want to do that. Answers to these questions could lead to follow up questions.

    Before that, I would want to know more about tapping into it. Like efficiencies & cost. Many things in life are possible while not being practical.

  • GreenWin

    Just the opposite clovis. I was poking fun at little e-dog.

  • GreenWin

    The renegade “GreenWin” banned from ECN for suggesting pathos are racist? That Green?

  • Ted-X

    If the electrostatic field is pulsing, than it is the same as a moving electric charge (or a flow of current, so it must create a pulsing magnetic field as well). Any conductor placed in the vicinity of this “pulsing electrostatic field” will generate electricity. Since pulsing means “up and down”, the direction of the generated electricity will be changing at a pulsing frequency. A diode bridge could convert the pulsing electric currents from the conductor into a “pulsing DC”.

    • mcloki

      That’s really interesting. I wonder how large you could scale this “Electricity” generator. If all it takes is creating more e-cats, scaling this up would be relatively easy. This opens up a ton of possibilities.

    • Omega Z

      A couple questions need answered 1st.
      Is it strong enough to bother with? Possible doesn’t translate to practical.
      Would tapping into it disrupt the Rossi effect? Is it necessary for the effect to take place?

  • Agaricus

    Andy – yes, your honesty in using a consistent tag is welcome, although others from ECN who post under new identities (and apparently even use extreme troll tactics such as multiple proxies) still tend to be pretty obvious.

    I find your personification of contributors on this blog as over-sensitive and dogmatic ‘believers’ rather ironic, given the consistently narrow minded monoculture of ECN and the predictably sneering reaction to any dissent there.

    I note that you have not been able to justify your post by identifying any statement by Rossi to the effect that magnetic fields are not generated by e-cat reactors.

  • Omega Z

    The Pilot plant is of many purposes 1 of which is to determine dependability & longevity.
    As to Current power plants, they are put/taken off/on line regularly for maintenance among other reasons. If an E-cat plant can operate non stop for 1 year & only need occasional maintenance & be operational overall for years, they will fit right in.

    Why Full SSM. Current power plants are connected to the grid and draw power from it continuously to maintain operation & control. In fact, they will not operate without external power. Nuclear, Coal, Gas, Geothermal, Hydro makes no difference. They all need external power.

  • Omega Z

    A steam turbine is not a direct electrical conversion. It is a mechanical process utilizing a generator. A conversion efficiency rate of 3 heat to 1 electric.

    The meaning of “Direct” in this thread is to bypass the mechanical & capture electrons directly from the process or something similar. There appears to be a lot of research in this area taking place in silence.

    I’ve no idea how successful they’ve been or how efficient such devices are. Some claim it is theoretically possible to exceed the Carnot Cycle. Possibly 80% to 90% conversion efficiency.

    As E-cat energy is to Fossil energy cost, Such a conversion system could be to the mechanical costs. Not only would you have cheap energy production, but cheap energy conversion. Beyond that, you could also reduce the need for power plants by at least half or more. You could possibly have 2 cents a Kilowatt to the meter on your house.

  • Axil Axil

    Dear Hank

    Your preconception is not consistant with what Rossi himself said about the activator (mouse)

    Dear Dr Joseph Fine:

    Please don’t go too far: just, for now, let’s limit to what I wrote about the Activator/E-Cat cycle. Please read carefully what I wrote. More than that is not possible to get, so far. Our basic module is made by an apparatus in which we have 2 components: an activator, which consumes abour 900 Wh/h and produces about 910 Wh/h of heat. This heat activates the E-Cat and then goes to the utilization by the Customer, so that its cost is paid back by itself. This activator stays in function for the 35% of the operational time of the syspem of the apparatus. The E-Cat, activated by the heat of the Activator, works for about the 65% of the operational time, producing about 1 kWh/h without consuming any Wh/h from the grid. Combining these modules we can make E-Cats of 1 kW , 10 kW, 100 kW, 1 MW , respectively, of power.

    Warm Regards,

    ===============

    A resistor cnnot have a COP over one. The muse must be an independent reactor in order to produce over unit heat.

    Here, Rossi says that the Cat is not powered.

    ——————————-

    Andrea Rossi

    May 12th, 2013 at 9:50 PM

    Dear Frank Acland:
    while the E-Cat is turned on, no other source of energy comes to the system. When the Mouse is turned on, the E-Cat is turned off and in this phase the Activator draws energy from the heat source. When the E-Cat is turned on ( about 65% of the operational time) the denominator is zero, no energy comes from any source to heat the Activator and the E-Cat, while the E-Cat is turned off ( about 35% of the operational time) the activator draws energy from the heat source, but at the same time produces for the Customer an amount of heat that is equal or more than the energy consumed, so that irt is pays the energy that consumes by itself.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    ====================
    Note the term “equal or more” . A heater cannot produce more power than it consumes.

    ======================

    Andrea Rossi

    May 10th, 2013 at 10:08 AM

    Dear Steven N. Karels:
    First of all, we must make a distinction between the fact that we are working to make bigger modules ( “tigers”) from the fact that we have mofified the configuration of all our E-Cats, putting in a apparatus two components, one of which is the activator and the other the E-Cat. One thing is indipendent from the other. The power of the activator depends on the situations, but being its COP more than 1 the energy of the activator is paid by itself, indipendently from the E-Cat.
    The activator works for the 35% of the operational time of the system, while the E-Cat works for the 65% of the time.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    ===============================
    If the activator and the E-Cat were an integrated unit, they would both be activated together.

    • Hank Mills

      The activator and the cat are one unit. Apparently, Rossi thinks that these resistors produce excess heat. I believe there have been cold fusion experiments using wires of certain alloys that produce excess heat when current is ran through them. Rossi has already said his resistors are doped with something. For all we know, he may load them with hydrogen. I think the simple answer is either the resistors do produce a tiny bit of excess heat or Rossi believes they do.

      • Axil Axil

        Dear Hank.

        Here Rossi says that the mouse is a reactor.

        Andrea Rossi

        May 1st, 2015 at 7:48 AM

        BroKeeper:
        The ssm is enhanced by the fact that with the control system directing multiple reactors we can obtain a synergy between them using some of the reactors to drive others, where the driving ones ( mouse operation) are less than the cat ones. This way the ssm phases are substantially more that the driving ones. This synergy, obviously, is possible only with big plants ( so far).
        I cannot give the numbers, as correctly Steven N Karels anticipated and, also, after consulting Orsobubu, I have to add that what we have now is not the final result, things can worsen substantially in time and the final results could be either positive or negative ( this last phrase could be substituted by F-Something).
        Warm Regards,

        • pelgrim108

          There is also the possiblity that resistor plus – some thin LENR layer – constitutes the mouse. This mouse can then have properties that are tailor made for starting ssm in the cat. Also there would always be some LENR process going on would maybe make it easier to start ssm. This thin LENR layer could be a modification of an old E-Cat variation that was very easy and quick to stop and start but had very bad ssm properties.

          I checked this scenario against the Rossi comments you quote here and find no discrepancy.

          • ecatworld

            Maybe this is what Rossi meant when he said that the resistor of the Lugano test was ‘doped inconel’.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Perhaps that could also explain the resistance drop in the Lugano test. Proton conduction might be a candidate.

            • Andreas Moraitis

              And that would presumably require AC, since there is neither a proton supply from outside the reactor, nor would protons be able to escape without being de-ionized.

  • Axil Axil

    Since electrons are fermions, the voltage of the electrostic charge is proportional to the number of electrons that have accumulted in the electrostaic field since every electron must have their own energy level. This voltge may get to be very high.

    http://www.chem.bg.ac.rs/~mario/VdGG/vdgg_lighting.jpg

  • Axil Axil

    What would a pulsating electrostatic field look like?

    http://www.strangefarmer.com/images/content/149787.jpg

    The hair of the people near the reactor would rise and fall in time with the electostatic field pulsations.

    • georgehants

      Wonderful, that looks just like me in the morning, but I’m no where near as beautiful.

      • Omega Z

        And when She’s 70, she probably wont be either.
        However, She’ll probably still have more hair then either you or I.

  • clovis ray

    Hi, guys, I am excited by the possibility of a solid state reactor producing only electricity, ac /dc wow what a giant step that would be for mankind, and our space exploration, I love the idea, can we call this new reactor solid state, to me, this would be without moving parts, they don’t ware out as quickly, when you put a life time guarantee on it, you mean what you say,– lol .

  • theBuckWheat

    One more question, sir? (After the interrogation style of TV detective Colombo) what is the frequency of these pulsations that you mentioned?

  • Sanjeev

    Are you educated ? If yes, how did you see any question there or see any attempt to insult someone? Its just a statement.

    I usually do not feed the trolls, so this is just to inform others. I wonder why this person is not banned yet. He takes a comment and twists its meaning in order to attack the commentator. Frank, why is this allowed ? This happened countless times.

  • Agaricus

    Where exactly does Rossi ’emphatically’ state that no magnetic fields are produced?

    • GreenWin

      We have seen this “show” repeatedly. Twisted words fulfilling the ulterior motive. It doesn’t take a gumshoe.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Instead of the alumina tube, have a cylindrical p-n junction (a p-doped silicon cylinder inside a n-doped silicon cylinder) to generate electricity from the alphas formed in the following reaction: Li(7) + p > He(4) 17.3 MeV.

    A cylindrical p-n junction instead of the flat p-n junction in the video (at 0:40 min). Silicon’s melting point is about 1,400 degrees C. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy0kHQASsX8#t=37

    We discussed this before.
    http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/04/08/rossi-helium-found-in-e-cat-reaction/#comment-1954104125

    • Gerard McEk

      Interesting idea, however I doubt Andrea has reached that level of techonology in his container yet.

  • Sanjeev

    If it is pulsing, it cannot be “electrostatic”.

    • Agaricus

      I suppose that an asymmetric electric field might rotate to produce regular variation of field strength at any given point, but mechanisms that might give rise to such a phenomenon aren’t immediately obvious.

      • Sanjeev

        I have no clue what it is, unless more information is given, such as the strength of the field, the instruments used to measure it and the temporal behavior.
        As usual people will expand the single word answers of Rossi into anything they like. It seems Rossi is simply fielding the questions out of courtesy, he is in no mood to give away the detailed info anytime soon. I caution all to not to make a mountain out of the mole hill.

        • Agaricus

          Unfortunately, actual facts are few and far between. If we didn’t continually over-interpret Rossi’s comments this blog would rapidly dry up completely. The only fact we can rely on is that most of the speculation here is just so much hot air – and it doesn’t matter one jot.

          • georgehants

            Peter, it is True that speculation when clearly marked as such is both fun and possibly constructive.
            It is also perfectly True that if comical and dangerous egotistical “expert” opinion, is interpreted by those with very little sense or ability to mean that “opinion” is in any way regarded as Fact, then science or any subject becomes nothing more that a laughable joke.
            Cold Fusion is just one small example of this retarded expert opinion possibly costing the World a great deal of unnecessary suffering.
            I must apologise for repeating these Facts, it seems some people do not like to be reminded of clear scientific failures of principles or method etc.

    • Observer

      Electrostatic “pulsing” implies that he has a load (bleeder resistor) between his cathode and anode, and that what ever is creating the charge difference between the cathode and anode is periodic or intermittent.

    • Gerard McEk

      I suppose that discarge pulses could be meant. Perhaps the ‘fuel’ is being charged while LENR takes place and that at a certain moment the fuel discharges to the (grounded) coil or the TC.

  • GreenWin

    Ah. IF only our best and brightest were allowed to work on truly interesting phenomena. Instead, they bang their heads on giant magnets hoping they can build a bottle able to hold “a star.” 65 years later, they’re still banging away on taxpayer $$.

    If as some evidence indicates LENR reactions “spike” on voltage transitions (small transients spike reaction) – program phased transients into the array to produce oscillations driving induction.

    If the mouse squeaks correctly the cat will be tamed. 🙂

  • Axil Axil

    ALpha particles are positive ions. These positive ions would require electrons to produce hydrogen as the stable product of the reaction. Alpha particles mean a positive electrostaic charge.This is unlikely. The LENR reaction might well be producing subatomic partiles that decay into electrons.

    Remember that the mouse has a COP of 1.02. The mouse is surrounded by three or more unpowered Cats. The mouse is driving unpowered Cats into producing electrons inpulses from NOTHING. The input power pulses that drive the mouse produce an increased LENR reaction in many dead Cats. If electrons are produced, then there are an equal number of positons produced to meet the requirement of the conservation laws. What neutralizes the positrons? But these positons somehow go away without gamma production. The electrons must be coming from meson decay.

    In SSM, what produces the pulses of electrostaic charge?

    • Gerard McEk

      Axil, I do not understand the phrase: “These positive ions would require electrons to produce hydrogen as the stable product of the reaction.” Why would that be neccesary?
      Besides that: I doubt that electrons produced in a hot cat would be able to pass the hot- and ecat tubes to enable the mechanism you are describing. The same counts for the alpha particles. If anything would be able to do it in that way, then I would go for gamma rays.

  • J Storrs Hall

    Actually the obvious thing to try, given that you have a reactor that glows white hot, is surround it with photovoltaics. I believe lab prototypes have gotten up to 40% efficiency in the solar spectrum, but you’d want a bit of R&D to match that with whatever blackbody the reactor turned out to be.

    • GreenWin

      This is just what Randell Mills is doing with his SF-CIHT generator. But heat is a problem for PV.

      • J Storrs Hall

        Engineering — a car engine produces three times as much energy as heat than as mechanical work. So we add coolants and a radiator (which should actually be called a convector).

        • Omega Z

          Light is of multiple spectrum & PV’s are limited to a narrow range or specific spectrum. Not only do they lose all spectrum outside their design, but a fair portion of those they are designed to catch/convert. As of yet, No one has figured out a way to capture all the spectrum. And even if you do, you still have many other issues of limited hours of light. Present battery tech is also not the answer. It is not even close to cost effective.

  • Observer

    Possible methods of direct conversion to an electro-potential (voltage):

    > collection of beta particles on isolated electrode
    > photo-electric effect from generated x-rays
    > thermo-electric converters (TEC)
    > magnetic flux fluctuations in a coil (difficult if fluctuations are extremely localized)
    > piezoelectric effect on supporting substrates (assuming chaotic “burst” reaction events)

    At the end of the day, efficiency is what matters. you can generate an electro-potential by rubbing a balloon against a cat, however it is not very practical as an energy source.

  • Andre Blum

    He is. They locked him in a shipping container.

  • modernsteam

    I’ve been following all kinds of advanced energy work. Though LENR is a part of it, I’m also keeping an eye on LPP Fusion (Focus Fusion) in New Jersey, They’re working on their own “hot” fusion system which would, if it works, convert boron-hydrogen fusion directly to electricity. Mr. Rossi may want to consider getting a license from them for that direct electricity conversion from the LENR reaction. I would warn us all, though, that Eric Lerner, the head of LPP Fusion, is vehemently opposed to the idea of LENR per se, despite the advances made with it since 1989. He has called it “unproven”, just short of using the word “impossible”.

    • pelgrim108

      Eric Lerner is a great scientist, and not afraid to take a minority stance ( watch?v=1Lwup7WD15w ) . I would like to hear or read it from himself however to believe that he is “vehemently opposed to the idea of LENR”.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        yes, “unproven” is a mild word, it can be used of any tech which is not yet in the market. Rossi’s “result could be positive or negative” means the same thing.

  • Gerard McEk

    There are two possible ways where AR may be looking at:
    1. The electrostatic way: If LENR produces fast moving alpha particls, you may be able to catch these particles on a surrounding plate that can be electrostatically loaded with a positive charge. It is like a capacitor that is being charged.
    2. If LENR produces electromagnetic pulses, they can be converted into electricity using a coil. The frequencies can be in the THz area and you need very special electronicls to convert that to usuable currents and voltages.
    I believe Andrea is looking at number 2.

    • GreenWin

      Using several reactors in a phased array could generate an oscillating EM field converted to current by one or more induction coil. We’ve yet to see hard data on these EM fields resulting from glowstick experiments. DGT claimed they were seeing very high EM but we never got supportive evidence as I recall.

  • GreenWin

    Seriously. 🙂

    • georgehants
      • GreenWin

        Dear George, yet another wonderful mind disrupting the “laws” of physics!

        “There’s no ultimate law of physics. All the laws of physics are mutable and that mutability itself is a principle of physics.” John Wheeler / Chris Fuchs

        • georgehants

          Yes but the more everybody in science looks and “speculates” it opens the subject up to wide scrutiny.
          Eventually they will have to face reality, which can never happen until all these areas are wide open to Research and investigation.
          It has been hidden as much as possible for 70 years, now may be time to set the beast free and face up to the Truth.
          Best

          • GreenWin

            Fuchs’ work is greatly heretical. Accepting our wold as completely subjective is pure sorcery to modern “science.” Perhaps it is the work of our hologram, seeking out the few who do not bristle at the suggestion consciousness creates matter.

            If we were to graph the probability of E-Cat as a wave function – it would reflect collapse at release of the Lugano Report. Up to that point probability has risen steadily over 4-5 years. As dear Margarette Mead insisted:

            “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can
            change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.”
            M. Meade

            • georgehants

              Seth states quite clearly that there are always a number of advanced beings volunteering to return to this sim to try and keep a little sanity progressing.
              Lets hope they are successful. 🙂

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    We can’t forget that Rossi researched heat to electricity over 20 years ago. It would be exciting if he could make a breakthrough in this technology with the E-Cat. Talk about a disruptive technology!!

  • Skip

    I wonder what technology he is experimenting with. My hope for TEG efficiency is currently an order of magnitude and years away, I suspect.

  • Nixter

    Direct production of electricity from Rossi’s Ecat process is the most promising and interesting aspect of this technology. Nothing could more quickly change our planet than something like this becoming realized.