Rossi Warming to Battery Powered E-Cats

Andrea Rossi has been quite positive lately in his comments about the length of self-sustain periods he is able to obtain with both the 1MW plant, and the Hot Cats under test in his laboratory. Earlier this week he stated that his team had been successful in extending the self-sustain periods in the Hot Cat.

Precisely how long these periods of self-sustain are, we do not know, and Rossi is not disclosing COP numbers, but obviously the longer E-Cats and Hot Cats can operate without any energy input, the higher the COP will be. If indications are correct, it could come to a point where there only needs to be very short periods of energy input to keep the E-Cat operating.

I put this question to Rossi:

You report success with long periods of self-sustain-mode, which would mean higher COP, with less energy input required.

If this is the case, it seems to me that it should be easier to provide the drive for the E-Cat with a battery or other energy storage device. This would allow for the operation of an E-Cat from solar or wind input with no grid connection needed.

Is this something you are considering?

He responded:

Frank Acland:
Yes, of course!
By the way, I found in the last issue of the magazine of NASA ( Tech Briefs) an advertising of batteries lasting up to 40 years. Very interesting, I am looking for them.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Then added:

To complete my answer: we are talking of “Tadiran Batteries”:
http://www.tadiranbat.com
Based on lithium thyonil chloride.
Very interesting.

When I asked whether they were considering battery input for domestic or industrial E-Cats, Rossi replied:

This is an R&D issue: I will get back to you when appropriate. We have to study and test.
Thank you for your question.

Many people have hoped that an E-Cat could be self-looped — i.e. drive itself without any need for an external source of power, but Rossi has said that an external drive is required for safety reasons. Of course if the E-Cats start to produce electricity, it would seem to be a trivial thing to charge batteries using a portion of the electrical output — and in that case, it would be as good as self-looping.

A year ago, when asked about the possibility of battery powered E-Cats Rossi responded, “That is also a line for the R&D we are making. Batteries are very expensive, though, and their pay back period is not quite convincing. So far.” It seems like his thinking has evolved somewhat from that time.

  • http://renewable.50webs.com/ Christopher Calder

    If you Google and Google News *graphene supercapacitor*, you will get lots of hits and information about companies all over the world (USA, Canada, Korea, etc.) working on them. Even if they never develop a totally leak proof supercapacitor design, I think the odds are they will develop a design that works well enough to make a E-Cat power plant work. As they don’t wear out and are estimated to cost 90% less than a lithium battery the same size, I think we should be optimistic about that issue. There is also the dual-carbon battery from *Power Japan Plus*.

    http://www.gizmag.com/dual-carbon-fast-charging-battery/32121/

  • Gerard McEk

    Yea Robert, I read about it. Unfortunately I could not find the maximum voltage and the volume or the size, so it is not possible to calculate the specific energy of these supercapacitors.

    • Robert Collins

      As far as volume/size they claim 10, 000 farad in a unit the size of a paperback novel. Not exactly a scientific measure. I’d suggest checking out the paper ucla published on the prototype. It’s probably got better info, though dated. They’re working on scaling it down further, and they need to. Keep in mind a farad is the number of electrons equal to 1 amp second at one volt. Maximum voltage in a capacitor is pretty much whatever you want it to be. So what you have here is a thing about the size of a paperback that holds slightly more total juice than a AA battery but can jump start a car. Once. However it also recharges almost instantly. You’d still need a big old stack of them to do anything interesting. Considering not too long ago a 1 farad capacitor was the size of a tuna can, this is pretty exciting. Especially given a nearly unlimited nnumber of charge/discharge cycles.

  • Agaricus

    IH seem to be handling marketing strategy – as might be expected. Rossi is their chief scientist, and as such will presumably not make marketing decisions, although he may retain some power to veto.

    He also may not be IH’s only lead researcher. If he is watching the pilot plant all day then someone else must be leading the hot cat R&D that Rossi has occasionally referred to.

    There may even be other branches of development headed by other scientists employed by IH, and it’s entirely possible that Rossi’s LT technology is just one of several IH LENR projects currently in hand.

  • Omega Z

    Maybe it’s the Idea of it going out of control & producing 2 million watts over 10 seconds. Imagine that in a boiler. Ever seen a pressure cooker explode on a stove top. That’s less then 10K Btu’s. Imagine what 700K Btu’s would do.

    • Agaricus

      Any production unit would have a full complement of safety valves and other fail safe mechanisms. Engineers have 200+ years of accumulated experience to draw on for keeping steam boilers safe.

  • Surveilz

    Yes I remember reading Mr. Rossi’s “years ahead” comment. That is well earned hubris on his part, but unfortunately it’s also foolish over confidence. If open science replicates and open source is applied to device designs, his years of man hours can be surpassed in a matter of months!

  • RD Canuck

    If he is really talking about Tadiran LiSOCl2 batteries for the 40 life, you should be aware that these are primary batteries, ie non-rechargeable. I can’t see how that would be beneficial with an E-Cat.

    • William D. Fleming

      I wonder why Edison batteries are not used more.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      That is correct.

      Why not ship a working “factory heater” that is self contained?

      So what if the batteries are not being recharged. The fuel and reactor might be sold to run for 10 years with a single fuel charge – and that includes the batteries that start the plant up.

      When the fuel is exhausted, you simply ship the unit back to the manufacture. The fact that the batteries are not being recharged is not such a big deal when viewed this way. Their “purpose” is only to start up the reactor – not be a source of power or even some kind of power storage. You also MUCH simply the working of the reactor since you not including and having to build a system to re-charge and maintain the batteries – a simpler setup overall. And you likely don’t need that much battery power given that it looks like we near reached self-sustain operation of such reactors. So a relative small battery is only required for such a setup (again reducing cost and complexity).

      Consumers can always purchase rechargeable batters, but every convenience store STILL sells disposable batteries.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

      • RD Canuck

        I never thought of the e-cat as being completely self contained for its life, including power. That would be awesome if possible.
        I guess I am just basing my assumptions on the many replication attempts which use significant power over long hours just to try to start a LENR reaction. Perhaps Rossi is so far ahead of everybody that he could power the cat with a battery only

        We can only dream.

        • Agaricus

          Current experiments are aimed at getting excess energy from a single cell, but as Rossi has presumably achieved this, cascading would potentially allow a relatively low start-up energy requirement. In the future, one cell might be able to fire up a MW plant by means of a liquid salt or metal circuit that takes heat to other cells.

      • Omega Z

        I don’t think this means anything. I think Rossi is just exploring all possibilities.
        One of the shortcomings of E-cats is the need for external power to start up & continuous power thereafter even if at a much reduced level.

        I don’t think a non-rechargeable battery would suffice. However, if you had several independent E-cat generators, they could provide external power to each other & a battery would merely be for backup should it be necessary.

        The issue has always been, How do you supply electricity to an ISOLATED Village or Location. Even a Fossil powered plant requires external power & a supply line. Build a grid power line hundreds of miles? Generators that require transported fuel? Today’s power plants require major infrastructure to be of use & that costs lots of capital$. Something in short supply for many.

        E-cat generators would require much less infrastructure except they still need external power. However, if you had at least 2(3 or more would be better) they could power each other once started up. Needing backup only should they all shut down at one time for whatever reason. Battery backup wouldn’t depend on the availability of any fossil fuel or wind & sunlight. Although, I would think they would want rechargeable batteries..

        Ultimately, you still need local infrastructure from the generators to individuals, but the cost would be substantially less bypassing the need for a large grid system. No Rail or pipeline or long distance power lines. It would all be of a local nature. Even the E-cat fuel could be dropped in by a small drone or why not keep a suitcase full on site for several years needs.

        A Country that wants to provide power to all it’s citizens, but doesn’t have 10’s or 100’s of Billion$ to do so may find they can do it for 10’s of Million$ & not concern themselves with the additional Billion$ that follow for coal or gas to power them.

  • http://renewable.50webs.com/ Christopher Calder

    What kind of battery or super-capacitor will we need to power this? Watch it before it is deleted. Serious issues for serious times.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWYz8TeybUI&list=WL&index=11

    • Omega Z

      I don’t find AI to be an Issue.
      However, I don’t trust those who would build & program them.
      The Logic built into them could have serious consequences whether by intent or unintended*.

      *Code such as primary purpose is to protect humans could be interpreted by machines as to protect us from ourselves like in I-Robot. Even if a few humans must be sacrificed to do so….

      • http://renewable.50webs.com/ Christopher Calder

        You should never give a machine a survival instinct. The machine should love to be turned off. Certainly, you should not build war robots with weapons. When all this was an impossible science fiction dream, I thought it was funny and entertaining. Now some scientists think it could be possible in this century. The potential reality of it makes it all less funny and more worrisome. BTW – Both movies mentioned are excellent.

  • roseland67

    A battery powered Ecat would define the total power/energy available for the test.
    This makes any power/energy output of the Ecat divided by the temporary battery life, (fully charged to fully depleted), instantly apparent.
    This quantity eliminates any “fake on-off switching” concerns.
    I suggested this years ago, but was under the impression that Mr. Rossi needed an alternating current waveform for some component of the process?

    • Steve H

      You can put dc through an inverter to produce ac. That’s how solar pv feeds back into the grid.

      • roseland67

        Steve,
        Correct, I know this, my company, Makes inverters and I design solar arrays, Grid ties, battery storage and demand response systems for many of our global customers.
        I also suggested this to Mr Rossi.
        My concern was KNOWING the total energy available for the test, and battery power was easily to calculate

  • EEStorFanFibb

    And if not batteries then how about EEStor’s upcoming energy storage devices….. prototypes have shown extreme longevity (millions of cycles) and they should be very cheap to produce. They also take and give charge at extreme speed (like a capacitor does). Wouldn’t it be grand if my two favourite technologies came together in a beautiful way?

    • Gerard McEk

      Supercaps do not really have a large Wh capacity per volume unit in comparison to Li-ion batteries and are probably too expesive yet. Besides that the electronics to convert it to a usable output voltage for LENR is also more expensive. Maybe in the future.

  • Private Citizen

    Talk of self-looped E-Cat being “too dangerous” challenge credulity for me.

    Surely there is a way to regulate the portion of heat recycled for looped operation so that it is indistinguishable from any other heat source.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      yes, I don’t understand how modulating cooling could be more dangerous than modulating heating

    • Albert D. Kallal

      The simple issue is control. Even solar arrays for your house do require a “kill” switch to prevent any electricity going back into the power grid. Imagine if a power line worker climbs up the pole to repair a transmission line and assumes that the power been cut, but what about the 5 houses with solar panels between where the power been “assumed” to be turned off! How do you ensure they are turned off???. And I believe for reasons of fire safety, then again such solar installations require a kill switch. What fireman chopping a hole in the roof (though the solar panels) wants to risk electrocution?

      Since very good COP’s are being realized (and it seems really only in the last few months), then some kind of self looped system looks RATHER EASY TO OBTAIN. However, the kill switch and the ability to turn everything off is VERY important from a safety point of view. If these things are fire hazards, then ANY KIND of safety approach will require a simple “pull the plug” or off switch if such systems are to be sold to consumers or business.

      Once consumers and business start to get their hands on these newer LENR devices, then all kinds of “hacks” will start to occur (likely against the manufacture wishes).

      In the event of a fire or emergency often one needs to cut the power (and gas) to the building. So now some big furnace will not turn off when you cut the power? That is NOT going to pass safety regulations. A VERY easy and reliable off switch is required here.

      You create a fully self sustaining system, then MANY safety issues arise – one being a simple means to turn off a hot furnace that could be the cause of the building fire. Can you be sure that when part of the electronics melts (the part that turns off the system) fails, will the reactor stop also? Some of the additional electronics may will continue to operate – especially so since many parts run at rather HIGH temperatures.

      A device that does not want to be turned off is a VERY hard sell to the public, and likely much worse from a certification point of view.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

      • Omega Z

        Your right. The problem with a self looped system is the control. If your E-cat becomes unstable, so does the controls powered by it. However a battery system wouldn’t be truly self looped. But then you have the additional costs which aren’t cheap & can easily cost more then grid power.

        As to the Solar panels. This is becoming an issue as they can’t be turned of. Even at night, they can generate electricity from ambient light. Like the light given off by firetrucks & other emergency vehicles. They can generate enough electricity to cause the freeze on phenomenon where one can’t let go.

        As more people install these to their homes, More fire departments are experiencing this & Discussions tend toward letting them burn unless lives are at stake such as people still inside. I can only imagine what this will do to insurance costs. If ever I need to go solar, I think you will find them on the out buildings like a garage. Maybe the neighbors house & a wire strong over to my home. 🙂

        As to E-cats. IMHO, The only ones that will be seen in nearly all homes will be L-temp base heating. Electrical supply will come from the grid. Albeit a smaller local generating plant at a much reduced price per kilowatt hour from our costs today.

        Generating electricity at small scale is problematic & not cheap at the individual level. I don’t want to have to baby sit the system. Nor wait for days on end for a repair service when it breaks down & it will break down. I don’t want to pay for a 60Kwh(Before conversion) system for peek periods when 85% of the time, I only use 1.5Kw of electricity. Nor do I want a chiller system that costs 15 times the cost of a central A/C(About $30K) and still needs about 500 watts.

        I strongly suspect the masses will be of a similar opinion. At very reduced energy costs & maintaining convenience verses more expensive & inconvenient energy.

      • Private Citizen

        Disagree. Things like fuses and blow-out valves routinely work as failsafes every day. Huge, dangerous dams operate on their own power. Your car uses self-looped power on a machine carrying a tank full of explosive gas. Electrical breakers rely on the very power they protect against to operate.

        I’ve got a heat source and a fail-safe to keep it from over heating the E-Cat. To the E-Cat it is irrelevant whether that heat source is some external power source or some portion of the E-Cat heat used as an external power source.

        It is unimaginable to me that a 100% safe way of looping power can’t be devised easily with existing off-the-shelf technology.

    • Omega Z

      Self looped is just not a good idea. Even in self sustain mode, you need the controller which requires power. As soon as an issue arises, you lose control of the device. It is the same reason that all power plants today have external power supplies(Generally Grid provided).

  • mcloki

    Interesting distinction in the way Rossi talks about the e-cats and We on the forum do. We talk about ways to make it physically work. Rossi talks about ways of making the e-Cat work economically.

    • Billy Jackson

      thats because we are still in the stages of trying to figure out “how” it works. Rossi has moved past that and is now trying to make it as efficient and competitive as possible vs current tech.

      • Gerard McEk

        That is true, frustrating though…