Rossi on ‘Stable’ 250 kW E-Cat Reactor (Buck) [Updated]

The following comment was posted by Buck in this thread.

I just read the following exchange and was deeply surprised.

Rossi’s statement that an advanced design has now be developed for a stable 250kW output for a single E-Cat module is a Big Wow.

This is a far cry from 10kW units and suggests that mega-watt configurations will take far less space than a shipping container.

I am reminded that the Kockums V4-275R Stirling engine is rated at between 75 to 100 kW depending upon the source of information

Link>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotland-class_submarine
Link>> http://pia.sagepub.com/content/202/4/257.abstract
++++++++++++
Fyodor
May 18th, 2015 at 9:41 AM
Mr. Rossi
I hope that all is well with you.
I understand that you have focused on smaller (10kW) modular e-cats in part for the redundancy and reliability that comes from smaller units. I was wondering if it were possible to build larger individual E-cats with higher power outputs. Can they go to 50KW or 100KW with the same level of reliability and control or do they stop scaling up at some point?
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I hope that they are letting you out of the plant every once and a while to get some air.
Best Regards
Fyodor

—————————
Andrea Rossi
May 18th, 2015 at 2:14 PM
Fyodor:
Yes, we arrived to modules of 250 kW quite reliable.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

UPDATE: Another Set of questions and answers on the JONP about the 250kW E-Cat:

Q: Thank you for the update-a 250 KW E-cat sounds very interesting. [1] Are the 250KW reactors low or high temperature E-cats? [2] How big are they? [3] Do you believe that there will be more favorable economics for the larger E-Cats because fixed costs like the controls, etc, are spread over a larger reactor?

Andrea Rossi
May 19th, 2015 at 11:16 AM
Fyodor:
1- low temperature
2- m 2 x 0.3 x 0.7
3- tests on course
Warm Regards,
A.R.

  • Mats002

    Folks: keep reading down below and see what the peanut gallery digged out about the secret customer a YEAR ago!
    Well done my friends!

  • Observer

    Henry Johnson (an attorney) holds active roles in ten companies and inactive roles in thirty additional companies. Are you suggesting that Andrea Rossi owns all the companies Henry Johnson is associated with?

  • Sandy

    J.M. Products, Inc. is located at:
    7861 46th Street, Doral, Florida 33166.

    Henry W. Johnson is the president of this corporation.
    Bio: http://www.evergreenui.com/bio_henry.php

    http://search.sunbiz.org/Inquiry/CorporationSearch/ConvertTiffToPDF?storagePath=COR%5C2015%5C0327%5C70665452.Tif&documentNumber=P14000056117

    The building at the northeast corner of N.W. 46th Street and N.W. 79th Avenue is a warehouse that has pedestrian entrances on its western side and loading docks on its eastern side. The street access is controlled by private security officers. There is a roof-mounted video surveillance camera on the northwest corner of the building and three more cameras mounted on that corner of the building, providing a means of monitoring a driveway that leads to the loading docks on the eastern side of the building. A military processing facility is located about 100 yards northeast of the building.

    • oceans

      the location requires you to pass through security guards, looks like Sandy found the right location of our Cat.

  • Axil Axil

    Mr. Rossi you are wise to follow my advice about incresing the power density of your product.

  • mcloki

    Ya like we trust some comment from a posters first post, no avatar. Credibility is low.

    • timycelyn

      Low? Say close to nonexistent.

      Methinks we have the either first or second hand the efforts of a denizen of ECN who has got a little bored with the 6 or so self-looping correspondents over there and is having a go at some good old fashioned sh*t stirring….

      • GreenWin

        Tim, those “six” ECN correspondents share just one source of tautological programming. 🙂

    • krakatoa

      Dear mcloki,

      this is the secret customer:

      http://22passi.blogspot.com/2015/05/henry-w-johnson-president-of-jm.html

      J.M. Products, Inc. filed as a Domestic for Profit Corporation in the State of Florida on Friday, June 27, 2014 and is approximately one year old

      the same Johnson is the president of Leonardo Corporation

      http://www.corporationwiki.com/Florida/Miami-Beach/leonardo-corporation/66632333.aspx

      • ecatworld

        I personally doubt that J.M . Products is the secret customer. If you look at the picture that was taken of the plant on the USPTO trademark application, it was in the same location as the pictures on http://www.andrea-rossi.com.

        Andrea Rossi has said that those pictures were taken at the place where the plant was manufactured. My guess is that JM Products provided the space where the plant was put together, not at the customer site.

        The pictures of the plant we have seen so far appear to be in some kind of warehouse space, not a factory setting.

  • pg

    Good news is we’ll know in just over 6 months one way or another.
    After 4 years of waiting this is conforting

  • Daniel Maris

    Source?

    • Freethinker

      Yes. If confirmed, this is very important. What source, and how credible? Some comment on a blog is not iron clad. What else is there?

  • http://renewable.50webs.com/ Christopher Calder

    If a stable low temperature E-Cat that size is possible, a Hot-Cat of the same size is just around the corner. You can make an alumina tube any size you wish, but that size may require special order and tests as to appropriate wall thickness. They probably started out with jumbo sized low temperature E-Cats because the ingredients were easy to source. Also, you can make a Hot-Cat out of metal as long as you keep the temperature tightly controlled. They seem to be making significant gains in reactor control rather quickly. Given the energy density of the E-Cat fuel, an eventual one megawatt E-Cat cell does not seem to be out of the question.

  • BroKeeper

    This is a much different scenario. If a company can save millions on their first year electric bill, it is doubtful that will change their mind. They will have saved enough to trade-in or direct purchase the next generation.

  • LuFong

    I wonder what this 250KW reactor entails. The 1MW Plant Instruction manual (from 2012, link here ) talks of 100 Energy Generation Units (in parallel) each consisting of 3 E-Cat modules (also in parallel). The manual also refers to each E-Cat as 20KW devices and Rossi recently repeated this as well. And this was from 2012. I imagine there have been many changes.

  • Jimr

    I’m confused by dimensions. 2 m length I assume, however the 30cm and 70cm- is that inner and outer demensions of a tubular devise or is it rectangular?

  • Mytakeis

    I begin to worry about the pace of governmental stagnation, when it comes to even mentioning LENR. Like disclosure, it appears to be anathema to the policies being carried out by our leaders to say anything good, bad, or at all about ‘cold fusion.’ Dear fellow E-Cat enthusiasts, keep on innovating, and generating. Just do not ever rely on the US Government for any assistance. There hands are tied. Elected officials’ commitments to contributors allow them not to be a driver; if anything they will end up as a reluctant followers, hesitatingly shedding traditional energy lobbyists, along the way. I am eternally grateful that I came across E-Cat World. The commenters, innovators expressing their optimism of a glorious future for humanity, in this exciting technological give and trake make a non-technical optimist damn proud.

    • Omega Z

      Mytakeis

      If you’ve followed ECW for very long, you know that many people of high regard are aware of Rossi & the LENR work of others. However, Don’t expect them to go public at this time. This is a very controversial technology & no one is going to make public statements until incontrovertible evidence is available. Like several industrial plants in operation with a history for validation of this technology.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Yes

  • Ophelia Rump

    He is not talking about the device, he is just discussing the semantics of three different words having different meanings.

  • Obvious

    A cold cat with a COP of 3, requiring electricity, in that size would require a massive electrical supply, and have limited applications. If one were heating a giant pool, then natural gas would easily compete, and be much more simple to install. Rossi never said it was a hot cat, and there was no mention of COP. Just that it was stable. Considering the thermal mass of such a large device that could handle that much power, controlling the heat would be taxing, and probably require a huge reservoir of coolant to keep excess heat (beyond the wanted amount) under control. So the final size of the beast may scale up faster than the effective size, for example.

    • clovis ray

      Understood, obvious misunderstanding, as both the low temp cat, and the hot cat, are under test,simultaneously . and i would say, they have settled on a design, with enough power to run most things, cars included,, smile

      • Obvious

        It is neat that Rossi can make a monster single cat of 250 kW, but it might be far more efficient to make a honeycomb of six cool cats surrounding a single hot cat that acts as a mouse to the other six, with the combined output of 250 kW, for example. In this way the output can be staged, ramped, and synergies can be maximized.

        • clovis ray

          yep, so many options, i guess it depends on what you want the device to produce, i would think the hot cat would produce what ever temp it is programed to out put.

  • Obvious

    Stable does not mean efficient or useful.

    • C. Kirk

      No, but a COP of 20 does

    • Ophelia Rump

      Pygmy does not mean dwarf.
      But both our comments are equally irrelevant to this thread.

      • Obvious

        How big is the most effective size for a can or bottle of beer?
        What is the best temperature of beer for consumption?
        What is the ideal alcohol concentration for beer?
        It depends.

        • Miles

          Who’s got a drinking problem?

          • Obvious

            I have problems with 410 litre beer bottles getting warm to quick, and going flat since it takes so long to pry them out of the trunk of my car, and get the cap off.

          • Ophelia Rump

            Not me, when I have had enough I begin to miss my mouth.
            Dynamic regulation.

          • Omega Z

            The only time I have a drinking problem is when I run out of cash& the wont let me run a tab. 🙂

    • BroKeeper

      Yeah, but “quite reliable” coupled with “250KW” is assuming COP over 10.

  • Warthog

    Why??? Auto manufacturers build many different sizes of vehicles, from sub-compacts to tractor-trailer trucks, simultaneously. That there should be many different sizes of E-cats should come as no surprise.

  • Gerard McEk

    I have always wondered why it would not be possible to enlarge the E-cat and now it seems AR/IH were developing this already. To me it is clear that just by extending the length of the E-cat/hot cat, you should be able to enlarge the active length. You can use multiple coils to ensure the right EM properties if that is required and maybe you can even integrate the cat/mouse principle. It should lead to a very compact design and as I said below mobile usage (in boats, cars planes) is one of the attractive possibilities and has come a step nearer now.

  • J Storrs Hall

    I don’t know if anyone noticed, but 250 kW heat, combined with a compact heat engine (think supercritical CO2 Brayton cycle turbine) is enough to drive a car. At, say, 1500C the Carnot limit for efficiency is over 80%, though you probably wouldn’t get more than 50% in practice.
    (ps — I notice McEk noticed. Cheers!)

    • Nicholas Chandler-Yates

      This seems a silly proposition, clearly the better method is an electric car and just use the Ecat industrially to make power.

      • malkom700

        I agree, first we should use macro solutions and quickly save the world then we should think of our private interests, cars, water heaters…

      • Gerard McEk

        As you know the strategy of IH/AR is to overwhelm the market with far developed Ecat designs and give copy cats little chance to develop something for another energy market sector (than heating). The transport (energy) sector is also a huge market and quite attractive and we all know that Rossi is interested in generating mechanical power probably for making electricity.

      • AdrianAshfield

        Not really. The problem is lack of cheap, good batteries.

        • J Storrs Hall

          Correct. The unit described above would easily fit in a car, much less a hotcat version. Current pure electric cars are not affordable nor a complete car replacement (range). A hotcat car would be, and more.
          A ~100 HP ecat generator set would find many uses beside cars, as well.

          • Omega Z

            I believe Cat-cars are a long way off.
            To many issues that will take time to overcome.
            Who want’s 250Kw of 1500`C in their trunk.
            How do you dissipate that much heat.
            Presently, you need to run it 24/7 as it takes many, many hours to start up.
            This wont happen anytime soon.

            • AdrianAshfield

              I agree E-Cat cars are more than a decade off.
              How much heat do you think a 300hp IC engine puts out?
              The answer is called a radiator.

            • J Storrs Hall

              Adrian is right again. Car engines are about 25% efficient, meaning that for every 100 HP (75 kW) of shaft power they also produce 300 HP (225 kW) of heat, mostly through the radiator or the exhaust. It isn’t hard to get rid of several hundred kW of heat via forced air past cooling fins; air-cooled airplane engines do this routinely with air intake/exhaust areas of less than a square foot.

    • BroKeeper

      “Build it and they WILL come”.

  • tlp

    Incidentally same power as the smallest version of BLPs SunCell, though SunCell is that much electrical power, Ecat is heat.

  • Gerard McEk

    That’s the right kind of power for a proper (fast) car! Now an integrated turbine to generate electricity and you will be able to drive around the world without refueling in a silent electrical car!

    • BroKeeper

      I’m sure Elon Musk is aware of the potential for both home and vehicles since they have contacted each other. The next big E-Cat accessory is the battery. (Elon thought – hmmm, giga-factories, giga-factories….)

  • Andreas Moraitis

    From a technical point of view, that’s certainly great news. Hopefully, it will not motivate customers to postpone their purchase decisions:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect

  • Ophelia Rump

    Incredible they are going through three or more generations of development before the first is even in full production. It truly will be difficult for any competitor to keep up.

    Now if IH can keep from being outclassed by direct electric production by the Russians IH will hold the high ground.

    • pg

      I don’t think IH should be too concerned about the Russians

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!

  • Omega Z

    I am aware from some of Rossi’s posts that the 10Kw E-cat has a peak output around 15Kw. Not a surprise as most things have higher capability then normal operating points.

    I’m also aware from some of Rossi’s posts that he was working with a 100Kw reactor just prior to the Industrial Heat agreement. That along with his Gas-cat.

    A 250Kw reactor is a surprise out of the blue. This bodes well for Electrical production if it proves to be stable. Yet many details are not known to be sure. It would seem Rossi learned much from the Lugano test analysis.

  • bachcole

    Wow.

  • http://renewable.50webs.com/ Christopher Calder

    If true, this changes everything. If he can get a COP over 20 using them in a cluster of modules, one driving the others, then that is a real breakthrough.

    • Nicholas Chandler-Yates

      indeed, it cuts down on complexity of the plant per Mw, which will result in much lower cost overhead.