Report from LENR-G Meeting in Milan and Airbus Involvement (AlainCo)

Many thanks to AlainCo for reporting about the LENR-Cities sponsored meeting in Milan yesterday about the LENRG ecosystem, and specifically Airbus’s involvement

He has provided a report of the meeting at LENR-Cities here: http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/1337-LENRG-G-Day-Milano-Airbus-and-LENR/

Below is a summary he posted on this thread here at ECW. I have taken the liberty of making some corrections for English usage.

The great news for the experimenters is that if one has a working reactor of COP>3, Airbus can provide an in-house developped 35% @1000°C efficient engine (a little more with some improvements).

They confirm their support of LENRG, but they have some requirements:

– a good academic certfications (this is why they provide the engine)
– efficient and light technology, for aerospace applications
– a theory, even restricted, that explains what are important parameters and which allows for continuous improvements by engineers

About the patent, basically no comment; f course it is based on lab work, and the patent is only on an improved control method … reactions are too much documented already to be patented … He talked me of old results, like thermacore … this guys knows the subject 😉

For the rest there have been presentations of the organization and the business model.

LENR-Cities will control the trajectory of the ecosystem, with a company neutral approach. They already have packages research programs, that are sold.

The first is the “certification” like what Airbus demanded and propose help. The second is on nuclear waste remediation.

Programs are containers that are funded by industrialists (and agencies) and which are associated to a few scientific projects. There there are already universities that will work in the UK, Italy, and even Switzerland.

They will created a financial compat LENR-Venture which will be separate from LENR-Cities, and which will be organizing an industrial crowdfunding of research programs, but also of industrial programs.

Another idea that is they sell “life-insurance” for industrialists. They pay a fee, and if the risk of LENR is real they will have access at low cost to technology, and industrial infrastructures. It is like having health insurance in case you get old: to have access to a cheaper hospital room (because you own the walls).

Their idea is that the most important is not to be the first to have a working reactor, but to be well organized to develop applications and create the market.

It is not innovation like done with Edison; more like Uber & AirBnb. Their approach is influenced by the digital economy business model — consumer centric (here the industrialist and scientists), sharing economy, viral development.

Imagine that you have a house with a free room and no money. A tourist has money but cannot call every individual room owner. AirBnb just proposes a platform where you can ask for a room in your preferred place, and if it matches you will rent your room.

(separate comment by AlainCo.)

A UK university , an Italian University, are to participate in precise research programs. Those universities are linked to local technology cluster, so if successful it can trigger big business interest.

Two labs will be constructed in UK and Italy for that. One is very competent in energy technologies of all kinds.
another is good in nanostructured material, cavitation, analysis.

The program on nuclear waste remediation is attracting many more countries than the LENR validation project … that is the power of nuke!

LENR-Cities, LENR-Ventures

AlainCo

  • Ivan Idso

    I think I am catching on and I think perhaps ECW is an ecosystem also? There are scientists, writers, environmentalists, etc… Its like a Lenr-Pub in the Lenr-City, where we all stand around drinking virtual beer and discussing Lenr.

    • Michel Vandenberghe

      Likely a community :- )
      Cheers

    • bachcole

      I go to the LENR-PUB devoted to home juiced veggie juice and discuss the philosophical, psychological, and spiritual aspects with any subject that comes up. (:->)

  • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

    Sorry for the trouble mixing the names. Happy to see you there too.

  • Michel Vandenberghe

    Hi Antoine, I will be at ICCF 19 too (I’m speaker on Friday).

  • Michel Vandenberghe

    “LENR-Cities is not a sponsor of LENRG”. To help to better understand, youcan read for instance: ‘the new age of ecosystems” at http://www-935.ibm.com/services/us/gbs/thoughtleadership/ecosystempartnering/ tovbetter understand what an ecosystem is (Ecosystem is a common word but has a special meaning as regards business and innovation. For more information: There is a lot of online information: See ‘innovation ecosystem” for instance).

    LENR-Cities is the architect and managing company of LENRG. This kind of detail is important. LENR-Cities is a pure player in ecosystem development and itself of member of LENRG (see http://lenr-cities.Com).It is a very innovative approach. Usually Ecosystems are enterprise-centric such as Intel, Google, and Apple and so on. LENR-Cities is developing a Market-centric approach. That means we are building the ecosystem but not to develop another business (software for instance as software companies do for instance), but only to develop our business: Developing ecosystems.

    “We are fully aligned with Airbus expectations”: Not precise enough. These expectations are
    not specific to Airbus but to any industrialist – top down approach – Industrialists own investments will be massive. A theory is required as explained (engineering requires to know how to forecast and improve).

    The scientific proof must be done with academics. Reason is also to unleash investment. See for instance, information about UK Government on this website.

    Airbus proposes a “Challenge” – a bottom-up approach well suited to demonstrate to engineers -. LENR-Cities is working on developing challenge with partners in Switzerland for a while. What is a challenge? See for instance, http://www.solarimpulse.com/

    In the text: “Airbus confirm their support of LENRG, but they have some requirements”: No, Airbus reiterate its support to LENR-Cities. LENR-Cities proposal is also to support partners to develop their own ecosystem. All industrialists know things are evolving very fast in this space.

    About LENR-Venture. It is not an insurance. LENR-Cities core business is based on risk management. Let say you are an industrialist. To be very synthetic, let’ say that your customers expect a good
    forecast from you as regards what is coming…

    Confusion about LENR-Venture and LENR-Invest. We are friends with LENR-Invest team in Switzerland and we had announced a partnership 2 years ago already. But Investment model of LENR-Venture and LRNR-Invest are different and business are not connected even if they may be complementary as regards some kind of customers.

    People asking for a reactor to be the starting point of doing anything must think why there’s this forum… Invention and innovation are two different things. Innovation is the catalyst of self-interest of actors on a market. Innovation is the process where they find mutual self-interests to make a market. The market as a set of enabler of these mutual self-interests (demand, economic develop, regulation, industry association and so on…).

    The core business of LENR-Cities is to design and implement BUSINESS PROCESSES to build these mutual self-interests, aligned to support Shared goals and ideal. Let’s say it is between the public model and the current enterprise centric model.

    It is an ‘Open Business” model. Instead of trying to make things open (such as Open Source), objective is to implement mechanisms to limit locks some companies can create … Very complementary and different approaches.

    • Michel Vandenberghe

      We were very pleased to meet and discuss with Steve Katinski who has attended our event in Milano. Steve is going to present the ‘industry association’ project at ICCF 19.

  • builditnow

    35% efficient jet engine (I’m assuming) at 1000 C, better efficiency than I thought, sweet.

    I’m looking forward to flying on a modified 4 engine Airbus, 2 LENR engines for cruise, all 4 engines for take off (2 conventionally fired for safety as LENR is further developed). The conventional engines are shut off at cruise and fired up for landing for safety. Bigger engines could be fitted to give shorter takeoff, faster climb and the same cruise speed. Hey, could we have 1.5g acceleration on the runway, about 5 seconds to take off speed? Ok, It’ll be a while. 🙂

    • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

      in SUGAR Nasa/Boeing report they proposed batteries to manage the peak power.
      kerosen hybrid may be interesting idea too.
      however I start to question if finally with they weight of the batteries, or the kerozen, it would ne be lighter to just add few LENR reactors and thermal engines.

      NB: Discussing wit Mr Geneste an A320 need about 40MW of power… I imagine it is peak for taking off.
      discussing here someone pushed 60MW for a 747

    • MontagueWithnail

      A jet engine? Surely a steam turbine? There is no combustion unless I have spectacularly misunderstood the whole basis of LENR for the past several years. Could be a sterling or something else of course, but nothing that requires an internal combustion process.

      I have a lot of questions about that statement (the 1000 deg C engine) myself. Is it something already designed, if so I wonder what on earth for? Assuming it is steam, is that the steam temperature or the reactor temperature? What is the steam pressure? I’ve never heard of a steam turbine operating at that temperature, if there was one I would expect it to be a lot more than 35% efficient (assuming full and reasonably efficient condensing) unless the steam pressure was very low. But if, it begs the question why? I wonder if it could be for capturing heat from a jet engine exhaust, I think very high spec military planes have exhaust temps around or slightly above 1000 degs, although I would have thought any interference with the exhaust could impact performance in an unacceptable way.

      Very mysterious, but it sounds like re-inventing the wheel in a crazy way.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Actually the concept of an atomic jet engine is surprisingly simple. See the 1950’s direct cycle nuclear powered jet engine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsCw0s0BJKY
        This has been one of my obsessive thoughts.
        http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/03/21/how-to-prove-lenr/#comment-1920298223

        • MontagueWithnail

          Fair enough, then it is just a question of semantics. I certainly hope that when they dreamed of those prototype designs based on fission, they did not plan to run them at 1000 degs C!

      • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

        the engine is thermoacoustic.

        It is a real prototype that is improved to scale up in power (up to MW) and in efficiency.

        I suspect it is linked to that paper

        http://pamir.sal.lv/2014/cd/container/B.7.02=DidierA_Pamir14.pdf

        • Alan DeAngelis

          Now that we know that alphas are produced in Parkhomov’s reactor, I wonder if an alpha voltaic cell would be the more efficient way to generate electricity. http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/04/08/rossi-helium-found-in-e-cat-reaction/#comment-1954104125

        • MontagueWithnail

          Thank you Alain, very interesting, effectively a Sterling but creating acoustic rather than electric power. That explains the rather low efficiency relative to the Carnot at that temperature.

          I do see how that design could be useful in space, and I always love to hear and think about innovative engines, but I rather despair that it would be even remotely considered for converting LENR to power here on earth at this stage of LENR development.

  • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

    Franck can you correct LENR-Invest into LENR-Venture, I screw up seriously

    • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

      thanks,

      I deserve a facepalm. 8(

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        Alain, we are all grateful for everything you report, all the work you do!

  • Michel Vandenberghe

    At LENR-Cities, we will be delighted to reply to any question. Obviously we are expecting people to read our website first…. Thank you.

    • Ivan Idso

      Michel,
      I have been to your website, but this is a new concept that I struggle to understand, but I am intrigued. I am a lower middle class person from the midwest of the USA. Is there a place for me in Lenr cities? Thank you.

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        Ditto, different location.

        • Michel Vandenberghe

          see above

      • Michel Vandenberghe

        Let”s talk about carpooling. One people has a seat free in his car. Another one is looking for a seat. For both, these seats have a value but they are not able to monetize them. A third party is proposing to implement a process which is : “Match seats for moving from A to B”. But it is not enough. In order to build the trust and be selective, the third party sets up a way to get any player to tell more about the players. This process is a way to monetize seats. The outcome is shared between all players.

        Then, there’s an ‘invention” and some people have some self-interest to develop, fund, acquire and so on this invention. Other have no interest at all. To make a market, It is the a kind of carpool business where people must find mutual self-interest.

        Some have some assets with Value but they are not able to monetize. the “standard” process is the market that is to say anything which is done to get actors to find mutual self-interests. there’re two important processes. What makes a people to think He has some self-interest to act instead of not moving. Basically, the question is what is the cost of risk. The second process is about the value of risk. It costs to make a market and a market has a value (this value is not only about Energy but with a huge innovation in all industries), AND it is an solution to get both growth and sustainability and transform our whole economy during the next coming 20 years.

        LENR-Cities is the third-party player of the carpool example but instead of “seats”, we apply the model to market development with “Technology-seat”,” industrial-seat” and “investors-seats”. We are working only of key market processes and we propose new value proposal with the corresponding processes to address the corresponding goals in an innovative way. Obviously, we apply the sharing economy model to implement these processes in order to scale ! and LENR-Cities has a focus only on processes to implement these processes … It is easy to understand and use. It is complex to understand how it works. LENR-Cities we think that the world for tomorrow already exists. only a catalyst is required. Notice that LENR-cities and more LENRG core team are mature people…

        To reply to your question. The most important seat is the “Citizen-seats”. As we said to Steve Katinsky during our meeting at Milan in Italy, we are willing to replicate in the US and in any countries. For now what we need is sponsors and funding to get capabilities to do that.

  • Josh G

    Hi Alain, thanks for your reporting. I am reposting the question I posed to Alain from the always open thread:

    A few weeks ago there was a post here by Frank about the LENR-G Milano meeting:

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2015

    He said he spoke with Michel who told him that there is another “very big group” interested in LENR research. Did you get any idea from the event and attendees what that other big group might be?

    Also in that post, Frank stated that LENR-cities “would be making an announcement about their ‘G-Day’ program which he believes will be of interest to all large companies, and will announce several LENR large programs which will be open to industrialists. They will also make an announcement about a proposal to use LENR technology for the purpose of nuclear remediation.”

    Is the ‘LENR-invest’ what he meant by the G-Day program? Also can you tell us more about the proposal for using LENR for nuclear remediation? Thanks!

    • NCkhawk

      This is getting more confusing – are LENR invest and LENR Cities associated?

      • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

        LENR Cities will control LENR-Invest in a way…
        Income from the technology and industrial portfolios will go back to LENR Invest, and thus to investors, and some to LENR-Cities to fund their operation.

        All was explained during the cnference but without the slides it is not easy for me to explain.
        The two entities are very different.
        LENR-Cities will have a modest capital and the mission to control the ecosystem, to organize analysisi of the scentific programs outcome to reallocate the funding so that the target (develop LENR) is reached.
        LENR-Venture will have a huge capital to fund research and industrial projects. It will be regulated like more or less investment funds (crwdfunding to industry).

        let us make an image.

        the ecosystem is the car.
        you have a goal, to go to Paris, to develop LENR, and revolution public transportation there.
        No map, no reservation.

        first you have an engine to make the car move, it is the scientists… many different one. Programs are like the driving wheel, the pedals, the buttons… they activate labs and scientists, on projects.

        LENR Venture is the fuel tank… you ask passengers to bring some fuel, you work as taxi, you are paid by peope who want you to be in Paris, to develop LENR…
        you sell transportation cards, so than when they want to move into paris, they will do it at a good price, because they paid for the building of the car…

        LENR-Cities is the driver. at the beginning he have mounted the egngine, put his own gasoline, found few clients …. the he will controle the mechanical parts, the engine, the fuel, the stops, the clients…

        the difference with a car is that if the engine or the passenger are not happy with the driver, they can say good bye and find a better driver. so the driver know he have to please as much the engine as the passengers.

        • NCkhawk

          Alainco – The bigger capital always controls and that is provided that money can be raised in the first place. Sounds like LENR Ciites and LENR Ventures (is that LENR Invest?) have some fund raising in their future. This sounds very dreamy and complex but presently thinking that the best thing to do is keep an open mind while the details fill in.

          • Michel Vandenberghe

            Nothing related to LENR-Invest !

          • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

            yes I mixed the name. LENR Invest have no relation with LENRG as far as know.
            This is in fact two companies, US and Swiss, with tyler van houwelingen and Antoine Guillemin… They invested in Brillouin, Lenuco,LENRproof, LENR-Cars… No news from them…

        • Michel Vandenberghe

          LENR-Invest is an existing company in Switzerland. What you write is confusing !

          the temporary name of the future company is LENR-Venture, a sister company of LENR-Cities

        • Michel Vandenberghe

          I do suggest to wait for the white paper, LENR-Cities is going to publish….

      • Michel Vandenberghe

        Alain, please double check before publication. It is confusing. Nothing to do with LENR-Invest !!!

        • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

          ok I screew up the names

          • ecatworld

            I fixed the name, changed to LENR-Venture

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            At this initial phase, with the high level of interest there is in any Business Organization offering an ‘ecosystem’ in the LENR field, confusion and clarification are likely to be both inevitable.

            Thank you for taking the time of reporting, and also for explaining to the man on the street. Clarification might be necessary if this Business Model is new, and not one ‘like Apple’ or ‘like Berkshire Hathaway’, for example. Secrecy creates even more curiosity, IMHO, though it is obvious that not everything should be in the public domain.

            Michel, would you consider setting up a Q&A section on your website which in some links is under development http://lenr-cities.com/maintenance.html# ?

            Question: would Industrial Heat, hypothetically, have the possibility (and the interest) of becoming a player within the LENR-G ‘ecosystem’, or would it be considered a competing business?

            • Michel Vandenberghe

              Being a pure player in ecosystem development is a new business. What we are doing is not specific to LENR but can be applied to any disruptive technology with some specific characteristics.

              What is not easy to understand is the following; Designing and managing an ecosystem is a discipline weakly dependent of what the ecosystem is doing ( it is not the case for entreprise-centric ecosystem like Google, Apple, Intel, Microsoft, Cisco and so on).

              It defines how to make more efficient, resilient and so on what is done to reach a shared goal (the only thing which is shared) and not to define what need to be done by actors of the ecosystem.

              Ecosystem is an entity and have its own value proposal and business and need a representative, which is LENR-Cities. (The whole is different from the sum of parts). The business of the ecosystem is to provide support to the actors of the ecosystem in order to get each of them to succeed. Actors only need to agree to support ecosystem level business. Actors can have agreement between them, including with LENR-Cities but it is business as usual, not ecosystem business.

              Remind that LENR is not only about Energy and that LENRG is working on Energy but on many other LENR technologies. You can not compare LENR-Cities / LENRG and Industrial Heat. Most companies in LENR business ( and many others) have a plan to develop an ecosystem using the old cooking way (entreprise-centric). Why it will fail.

              1 – the pace of innovation is too fast and is accelerating and With LENR, you can bet global innovation will be at least one order of magnitude higher that what it is today.
              2. There’s no patent on Science and whatever is done will be quickly replicated and implement in other ways.
              3. Only lock may be regulation as it has been done for years by developed countries. Let(s try to explain that to China, Russia, Brazil and India.
              4. poor countries are the first customers of LENR (thing about Telco….)
              5. People want a future.

              Industrial heat can be a player of LENRG (not LENR-G) it is not even a question, Industrial Heat can compete with other players of LENRG but not with LENRG itself that is with LENR-Cities, its architect and managing company.

              The problem is not the make LENR but to organize the adoption of LENR in order to make it massive and as peaceful as possible…

              It is why we promote Open Business. basically, design a business where it is more efficient to cooperate than to compete or in another words, where to be more competitive you need to cooperate more.. thing about Open innovation.

              About a Q/A section. we have published in August last year a 10 pages paper to explain many things about our strategy. Next one will be about our Business in general. Next one will be a business architecture paper.

              note : the problem with Q/A is that at some stage there’re so many Questions and answers that people prefer to ask a new question.

              • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

                Thank you truly for the clarification, and sincere apologies for my trivial questions.

    • Michel Vandenberghe

      G-Day program is about the certification of LENR, i.e Scientific proofs

  • NCkhawk

    What exactly is LENR-Cities selling as their part of the “insurance” scheme other than what appears to me to be hot air? What makes them real?

    • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

      They might need to set time aside for ‘question time’, if they must answer in public… because anyone interested is going to have questions. Or they might post answers on their website.

      • Michel Vandenberghe

        see above

        • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

          Michel, thank you for the clarification.

    • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

      I will tel more in a soon to came article.
      This model is designed for people whi think like industrialist.
      They explained their own business model during the conference;

      I agree it is new model

      • NCkhawk

        Thank you Alain – will wait for your article. Unless they have a controllable working reactor in hand that is ready to be verified then I think there is a long way to go before “industrialist” are needed. If the LENR Cities folks don’t have one or more working reactors in hand then why would any of the bigs want to deal with these guys anyway? The bigs are going to go direct when they decide its time. Looking forward to learning more – this needs to pass the smell test as step one.

  • Sanjeev

    One more report from “we want LENR Fusione Fredda”
    http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/10/26/always-open-e-cat-world-thread/#comment-1958621662

    The idea of Airbus to offer their engine for a test is interesting. Perhaps they want to avoid calorimetry totally.