MFMP’s Project Dog Bone Thread — Update #8: [Powder Test in Sealed Alumina Tube Scheduled for Wed, Feb 4th]

UPDATE #8 (Feb 3, 2014)

Thanks to Ged for pointing out the timeline that the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project has posted on their quantumheat.org website. They have a schedule laid out for this week there. The main events are:

Monday, Feb 2 (yesterday): Team assembles, Test equipment set up, integrated, and prepared. Lots of reading the manuals!
Tuesday, Feb 3: Test 1: Calibration with Thermocouples, Optris camera, and Williamson Pyrometer; Test 2: Fat coil dog bone with internal heat source; Test 3: Assessment of Alan’s calibrated alumina temperature sources
Wednesday, Feb 4: Tests 4-: Powder Tests in sealed Alumina tube
Thursday, Feb 5: Test X: High Temp Inconel Heater Dogbone Calibration

The powder tests in the sealed tubes are the ones that are going to get most attention, I am sure. The MFMP team says that live YouTube video streams will be announced when they are ready.

I’m looking forward to following all this — best wishes to all at MFMP, and thanks for sharing your work with us all!

UPDATE #7 (Dec 29, 2014)

[Corrected Sentence based on a wrong assumption] The MFMP are making preparations to test one of their ‘dogbone’ reactors with fuel inside. According to a new post on their Facebook page, they hope to carry out a live online test on January December 30th.

Bob Greenyer posted this today: “Tomorrow – frank will correct the title. Dog bone cast last night and baking tonight in oven,Ryan is getting the glove box ready now to mix the powder”

Here’s the information from the post:

Given the encouraging fast response from Professor Alexander G. Parkhomov, Ryan is in the lab this evening preparing to cast up another Dog Bone.
It will be essentially the same as the first two so that we have data for comparison, it will be single phase and have the swappable core ( we have 3 core tubes in hand to make attempts with ).
Plan
– make new swappable core dog bone
– make ceramic plug from pass-through and cement
– bake both of the above in furnace
– mix 2.2-2.8um nickel powder with LiAlH4 under argon and seal in container all in the glove box.
– flush glove box with air (we want air because Argon could not be combine with the O2 and N2 in the reactor core)
– quickly transfer the powder mix in glovebox into the reactor core.
– plug open end
– seal with ceramic cement (only have water based at moment)
– allow to dry
– b and k type thermocouples placed

Live experiment (hopefully on 30th)
– Youtube / google live streamed experiment
– test conservatively with an empty core to characterise the reactor
– insert active core
– test even more conservatively and see if there is a significant departure from the characterisation.
– if see something positive, will look to do the water vaporisation test.
In the meantime, more cores, plugs and non-water based cements will be ordered in case of negative outcome so that we can follow up quickly with variations.

UPDATE #6

Yesterday there was a ‘first pass’ live test carried out by Ryan Hunt of the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project on the first dummy reactor that the group has prepared. Below is a video of the reactor, along with a chart showing the temperature measurements made.

dogbonedata

We must remember — the purpose of this test is to see if it could give us clues about the validity of the Lugano E-Cat test where a reactor of similar dimensions and composition was heated up to a maximum temperature around 1400 degrees C with an input of just over 900 Watts.

I asked Bob Greenyer if he could provide a brief summary of the significance of yesterdays testing, and he wrote:

1. It looks like it will be hard to reach 1400ºC average temperature on the outside of the Dog Bone and not with 900W
2. It supports the use of a thermal averaging technique (just look at the difference between fin and grove)
3. A dog bone at 1400ºC will be very hard to look at (will almost certainly need filter glass)
4. The windings were, as we suspected, unlikely to be Inconel.
5. it is quite a challenge to get something to run at these temperatures for 32 days
6. It has yet to be demonstrated that their method of measuring the surface temperature was valid – this can only be done when we have the Optris camera (in January).

UPDATE #5 (Dec 7, 2014)

The MFMP team has started to apply power to the resistor inside the dummy dogbone reactor. Here’s the latest from their Facebook page:

“It gets warm!

[]=Project Dog Bone=[]

Ok, so the phases need to be better connected as right now they are showing themselves to be high resistance contacts and getting too warm. There are also hot-spots visible in this test, hopefully that is just due to a few close windings.

Hopefully get live data running early next week.”

Bob Greenyer has posted here on ECW: “The first data point is 120W=>225C on the surface and 300 inside.we will hold off doing wider sweeps until we can get the data live publishing.”

hotdogobone
UPDATE #4 (Dec 1, 2014)

Here’s an interesting comment on the MFMP’s Facebook page from Alan Goldwater  who describes what has happend after the bare dummy core (See Update #1 below) has been coated with alumina.

“I coated a freshly calibrated core coil with two thin layers of high-alumina cement. The coated coil was then reinstalled in the jig and tested. The difference was startling!

Above 200 watts, the coated coil resulted in far higher thermocouple temperatures than the uncoated one did. The core was over 1300 degrees with just 732 watts input. At 1330 C (780 watts), the type K thermocouple failed. It’s now stuck to the inside of the core tube, probably by melted fiberglass insulation. The cement coating survived but is cracked in many places, probably from thermal expansion of the wire.

This is a good illustration of the thermal dynamics at work. As the temperature rises above 500 C, the radiation heat path is increasingly dominant, and the lower emissivity of the cement is evident in the steeper slope of the curve.”

UPDATE #3 (Nov 25, 2014)

More progress with Project Dog Bone, even on Thanksgiving day. The MFMP Facebook page reports they have created a three-phase winding for the resistor heating coil made out of Kanthal A1 on a ceramic tube, and put it inside the recently casted alumina casing. The whole thing has come in 20 grams (4 per cent) heavier than the E-Cat reactor core used in the Lugano test.

dogbone
winding

UPDATE #2 (Nov 25, 2014)

The picture below shows us that the MFMP team is setting up a system that tries to closely match the reactor and testing equipment used in the Lugano E-Cat Test. The reactor shown here is described as a ‘broken bone’ — the team is apparently making better molds and obtaining needed materials for making a reactor that more closely matches the E-Cat used by Levi et. al. in the recent test.

brokenbone
New photo: here’s Ryan Hunt of the MFMP with a better casting of an alumina casing:

ryanhuntaluminacase
More pictures can be seen on the MFMP Facebook page here.

Also mentioned on a Facebook post is that the MFMP is trying to purchase a thermal camera of the same model (Optris Pi160) used in the Lugano test, and finding out that they are in short supply. However, they hope to be able to get one from an Italian distributor for the hefty sum of 3000 Euros.

UPDATE #1 (Nov. 20, 2014) It’s good to see the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project get underway with testing in their Project Dog Bone. Today here is a post on the MFMP’s Facebook page about the first test that has been carried out on a bare dummy core.

Specifications are: 200 mm in length, 190 turns, 5.8 ohms resistance (before heating).

According to the Facebook post:

The dummy core is being built to try and represent LENR heat from the centre of the dog bone in the thermal assessment experiments.

This core maxed out at 80.1V RMS and 1119ºC as you can see in the photos.

Approximate resistance and peak power was 7.0 ohms, 914 watts, a calibration curve is given.

PDB1

PDB2

PDB3

  • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

    As some feared previously, it is possible the emissivity assumed in Lugano is totally wrong, 0.95 instead of 0.4…
    bad news. one more reason to critic the testers not to have calibrated at full temperature.

    we should prepare to reinterpret the experiment with emissivity 0.95. in that case the stop from 800W to 900W may give informations.

    with emissivity 0.95 instead of assumed 0.4 the COP is quite lower question is how is the IR cam compute the temperature.
    It seems from the specification that it is an array of bolometer, that measure energy in the documented bandwidth.
    I’ve tested hypothesis like that in december.
    I estimated the curve of the cam something like output=(T°C -220°C)/240°C with output=100% at 450C with thee-cat dummy (at which it was calibrated with thermocouple)
    does it seems correct for MFMP?

    the emissivity just change the signal proportionally.

    so imagine that the emissivity at 450C is the same as the one at full power (900W)
    then instead of being at 1400C with emissivity of 40% and 450C with emissivity of 70%
    the it is 900C at same unknown emissivity as at 450C
    and 1250C is about 800C at same emissivity

    this does not exclude excess heat as increasing from 800C to 900C

    this 9% increase in absolute temperature should increase radiation by 43%

    convection dissipate proportionally to the temperature difference, so 800 to 900C convection dissipate 12% more, about as much as the increase of power.

    COP=1 is impossible except if most of the heat is dissipated by convection and not by radiation.

    another point is more human, it is impossible that Industrial Heat have let non working reactor to the testers, who could have worked well , used high emissivity fluids, used dots, used thermocouple or bolometers.

    moreover if the test was bad about it’s results, if temperature were impossible , compared to what was expected, sure Rossi and IH would have warned the testers that the results were crazy.

    the hypothesis of an epic failure is not even credible. we are in a painful situation, where we need to know the emissivity of an E-cat at 1250-1400C

    problem with MFMP or Parkhomov replication is that it is not an exact replication, it is not a calibration of Lugano, just yet another test with alumina…

    maybe their alumina recipe is not as pure as the one of Industrial Heat… and thus have higher emissivity? or maybe simply was the E-cat tested at 900C, with COP=1.3, instead as tested at 1250C with a COP of 3

    this is not incoherent with parkhomov who noticed an increase in COP above 1000C

    maybe the temperature is bad, but Rossi accepted the result because it match what he observe, COP>3 at T>1200C.

    bad news for us, there is doubt.

  • GreenWin

    MFMP, Parkhomov, Hagelstein, Mills, Rossi, Celani, Piantelli, McKubre, Mallove, Duncan, Boss, Storms, and many many others contribute to the unsung science of LENR. They are now on the brink of begrudging acceptance by the former PTB. The facts are, we (self-informed interests) have known since 1989, the anomalous heat effect confirms low temperature fusion of atomic nuclei. And in spite of grandiose efforts of mainstream manipulators — LENR is coming to full fruition — by way of grass roots garage inventors. Nothing could be more triumphant or indicative of independence than the continued success of these pioneers.
    This story is better than a paper bag full of kittens — though not quite as funny. March on MFMP!

  • Ged

    So far it looks like the optris runs very close to the b-type, if 10 C cooler in the same area the b-type sits; and both are hotter than the k-type. A good sign so far for the accuracy of the thermal measurements, at least at these 250 C temps. Let’s see if this holds for the whole dynamic range.

    Is the black spot having an effect in the other area?

    • Bob Greenyer

      Please bear in mind that right now, all of the emissivity is set to 1 – except the zone where the black spot is, this is set to 0.95. When we get to 1000ºC, we will start the real calibration for the Optris, using a combination of TCs, the black spot and the Williamson Pyrometer.

      • Ged

        Awesome. It’s great to get to watch this new equipment working and in progress!

  • Private Citizen

    Frank, on these long update threads, maybe you could put an unchanging link at the top to an unchanging anchor at the bottom: ie “Click here to jump to comments”

    Example (remove quotes around opening and closing bracket):
    ” Click here to jump to comments ”
    ….
    ““

  • Bob Greenyer
  • Bob Greenyer

    Calibrating Lugano…

    []=Project Dog Bone=[]

    There are three methods suggested by Optris for calibrating the emissivity of a sample with the PI160 as shown in the attached image.

    We will be using a combination of the 1st (comparing to contact thermocouples) and the 3rd ( a known high emissivity paint) across a range of temperatures.

    Going live soon!

    http://youtu.be/0DY4TJmCJS8

    Ask us questions here, Facebook, on the youtube stream and our site.

    http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/home/mfmp-blog/446-dogbone-week-live-now

  • Bob Greenyer

    We have just got permission to release Dr A. Parkhomovs sealing method (which we have so far not succeeded at – he has commented on our efforts)

    https://www.facebook.com/MartinFleischmannMemorialProject

    • ecatworld

      Great news, Bob! Thanks very much to you , and to Alexander Parkhomov!

    • Ged

      Hmm, looks like we expect to see some leaking with the current swagelok system listed in the plan? Guess it depends on how fast it leaks to determine if that will have an impact on any potential reactions. We have the data from last time, but will it be possible to do a LiAlH4 or other pressure source only test to determine leak rate of the current dogbone? Otherwise, Alan’a data should be sufficient I think.

  • Mats002

    The pictures in evernote loads vwery slow from top and stops at about 20%. I have IE11. Is that a known problem?

    • Andreas Moraitis

      That’s presumably because the images are very large (in terms of pixels and memory). Maybe MFMP want to ensure that everybody can explore the details if necessary. It might be a solution to publish images of reduced size, while providing links to the original versions. But this would require additional working time, so that I think we should not complain – it is valuable enough what MFMP are presenting to their audience!

      P.S.: That the loading stops at 20% might be due to your browser configuration. You could try to change it or to download the images directly onto your hard disk.

  • Bob Greenyer

    On second leg of the calibration.

    []=Project Dog Bone=[]

    Targeting 400W input power

  • artefact
    • artefact

      The test seems not to have started yet official. The stream is working though

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Thanks Artefact!

    • artefact

      Calibration run will take several hours!

    • LuFong

      To see the actual data, see http://data.hugnetlab.com/ Select ‘View’ for ‘Dog Bone Test’. Check ‘Update With New Data’ to get periodic live updates.

      It seems they are about to start the calibration portion of the test.

  • artefact

    Here is the Evernote with the baking and fuel loding of the new bone:

    https://www.evernote.com/pub/marpooties/projectdogbone#st=p&n=df20c844-ed5b-4d6b-9958-26b2c616154f