Project Fedora Thread [UPDATE #4: MFMP Refuse to Sign NDA with NicHEnergy]

There have been some interesting posts on the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project’s Facebook page today describing their initial meeting as part of Project Fedora — working with Francesco Piantelli. They have started out in Milan where they met with officials from Nichenergy, the company created to commercialize Piantelli’s LENR technology.

UPDATE #4 (January 25, 2015)

Many of us have been wondering what has been going on with the MFMP and their Project Fedora, and now there’s a post on the quantumheat.org website by Bob Greenyer that gives a report of the status of their work with NicHenergy in Italy. He writes:

After a week of meetings and direct knowledge transfer, in which we neither had the time or energy to report on our learning, we were presented with an NDA to sign.

We refused to sign it without even reading it, it is not who we are, only bad things can come of signing an NDA for an organisation such as ours. Compounding that, is the fact that we are volunteers, why would we leave ourselves open to potentially ruinous legal repercussions when we have nothing to gain!

It was a generic NDA that would have been appropriate for an investor or employee, neither of which we are of course. The MFMP is only interested in finding the truth and adding to, rather than taking value from participants that have real technology that should properly be investigated.

The NDA would have required us to cease all other activities in related research and gagged us on the knowledge we knew and was to learn from NicHEnergy. It was not deliberately written that way, but all the same, that would have been the implications. Obviously it was an impossible ask, especially as we are already funded and committed to doing other experiments.

We then spent 4 full days, writing a cooperation agreement which respected both parties and which was well received by NicHEnergy.

We are considering doing a live-streamed in-principal discussion to debate the way forward, both NicHEnergy and the MFMP wish to find a way to cooperate that meets both of our respective goals. We are in a unique position and one that will not likely be repeated by any other kind of partner. If it is possible, we wish to demonstrate incontrovertibl y that Piantelli is the father of the Nickel Hydrogen system.

UPDATE #3 (January 13, 2015)

Here’s an update on the MFMP Facebook page regarding what has been going in Tuscany with Francesco Piantelli:

“It has been an educational first few days here with Piantelli and NicHEnergy.

“It is clear to all involved that it is in everybody’s best interest for the great work Piantelli has done here to be replicated. For us it is another chance at demonstrating this phenomenon. For NicHEnergy, it is validating their patent claims and increasing their value. It’s a win-win.

“Piantelli has been frustrated many times by replication attempts where the investigator starts from an incomplete understanding, tries it once, gets it wrong, and then claims that it is a failure. When they realised we would be willing to attempt it many times, as we have done with Francesco Celani, if necessary, they were more comfortable to proceed.

“With that in mind, he seems to have taken it upon himself to tutor us in detail about every aspect. With true, inspirational table pounding passion and conviction, he has shared many stories behind the data he has published over the years. We have heard about excess energy, transmutations, and radiation.

“To make this work, he plans to help us specify every detail to meet the many very specific requirements he has identified over his years of trial and error. When we get to actually building and running it, he wants to review each step to make sure it tests tight, bakes out well, and runs according to plan, including all data. We are pleased with that.

“As we are learning, we are beginning to see this as a long process and are estimating the time and costs involved. Without this trip to learn all these details, a replication attempt based just on the published details would be impossible”

UPDATE #2 (January 12, 2015) I contacted Bob Greenyer asking him how things were going with Project Fedora where the team is now in Tuscany meeting with Francesco Piantelli at his lab. I got a brief message in reply: “Really good… intense… hope to message on it later today”

UPDATE #1 (January 9, 2015) Here are some excerpts from the MFMP:

Two hour initial discussion establishes common ground with NicHEnergy and direction for the coming marathon.

After an utterly punishing journey to get here and a complete logistical nightmare organising the key first meeting, we had a very productive afternoon with NicHEnergy.

What was demonstrated more clearly today than anything, is that there is simply NO SUBSTITUTE for face to face discussions, and we are indebted to everyone that made just this one day possible.

We learnt a huge amount about each others organisations and motives, our hopes and fears for the coming days and how best we can learn and work together in a positive way.

Every bit of the experience we have gained since 2012 was important in this meeting, as was the unique community supported way we function. We hope we will have a chance to work in a way that yields evidence, understanding and results that have eluded others who have tried in recent years.

The MFMP says that following the meeting in Milan they will be heading to Tuscany where Dr. Piantelli has his secret laboratory. The have enlisted the services of an Italian filmmaker who will be documenting the activity, and acting as an interpreter, since Piantelli does not speak English.

I am sure we will be hearing (and hopefully seeing via video) about the progress of Project Fedora.

  • Sanjeev
  • Bernie777

    A very basic question probably can be answered by Bob Greenyer. Has Piantelli attempted a practical application for his reactor, like Rossi? If not, do you know why? I am convinced the only way private LENR research is going to happen on a big scale, is if someone shows practical money saving work done by a reactor.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Our discussions were primarily focussed on meeting our primary goal, collaborating on creating an incontrovertible demonstration of the effect.

      He pointed to an experiment, that we all saw that he claimed had been producing high levels of excess heat for a very long time and that he wanted to let run until it didn’t work anymore.

      He said on a number of occasions that their technology was much further along than the experiment we are discussing. It was repeatedly a clear point of frustration for him that he was needing to do this to settle debate in the field with an old, but protected, experiment when he had much better experiments that could be done.

      • ecatworld

        Bob, when you say a ‘protected’ experiment — what do you mean?

        • Bob Greenyer

          Based on his patent and previous journal published and peer reviewed paper.

      • Axil Axil

        Piantelli is wrong. All the assumptions behind fedora are bad.

        If the past is prolog, a demo, no matter how spectacular, will not work.

        http://hoaxes.org/comments/papparticle2.html

        R. Feynman on Papp perpetual motion engine

        The Papp engine was demonstrated to Richard Feynman and Feynman was determined to debunk this engine as a perpetual motion machine no matter what the demo showed. During the demo Feynman even killed a guy and maimed another during a demo of this 100 horse power excess energy device. Even though this killing burst of power occurred after he pulled the engine’s plug out and even after a teardown of the engine showed no hidden power source.

        An iron clad third party test that was enough to prove the Papp engine to the Patent office was not enough for the naysayers as that bygone time. Papp got patents for all of his inventions. I fact, the U.S. patent office awarded the last patent he was awarded for the last version of the Papp noble gas engine the best patent of the year honors.

        No matter what proof was provided, the systems that Joe Papp built must be flawed and could never work because Joe Papp was flawed. This same logic applies to Rossi and LeClair.

        The DGT system is flawed because DGT ran out of money. So that system could not have worked because the cost controls employed by DGT were tragically lacking.

        The naysayers want LENR to meet the open source requirements of science, They want to replicate them. Lenr is a thing, a machine, just like an aircraft. A machine cannot be proved scientifically. Scientific replication of a machine cannot be done because it is a system comprised of the principles derived from many sciences. And that proper combination of component parts are proprietary in industry. In this lies the dilemma of the clash of cultures that LENR suffers: science and engineering, A LENR designer can prove that some components of LENR work in a scientific experiment, but LENR can only be proven as an effective system by competing in the marketplace.

        LENR must make money, lots of it. The people who want to make money will force the smart people, the high priests of science to help them make money.

      • Alain Samoun

        BOB;

        I was wondering if you have asked Piantelli and Parkhomov if they have done some isotopes analysis on the ashes?

        • Bob Greenyer

          Piantelli has published many times his transmutation studies. We are not aware of any study by Parkhomov – maybe today?

  • Ged

    Sounds like they were trying to secretly make you guys employees, but using the NDA to keep you from doing other research and just focusing on their tech. Pretty crafty, since you guys have become such a savvy and powerful resource! Glad you guys saw through the ruse ;).

    • Bob Greenyer

      Piantelli is very frustrated that some of the greatest minds in the world are wasting their lives on rubbish pursuits.

      His principal motivation, repeatedly iterated to us, was his hope that doing an utterly incontrovertible experiment with us would spur a world-wide investigation into what EXACTLY the anomaly is, he mentioned the Manhattan project in this context – there are so many theories it is clear no one knows what is really going on!

      He is so frustrated that in the last century they could gather all that resource and achieve a goal in 2 years and here we are, excess heat or not, 25+ years on with no real answer to what is happening.

      He argues that only a fully consistent exacting experiment would be able to start the process, it is too easy for nay-sayers to tear down experiments that have even just one hole.

      • Ged

        This is very true, and I can completely understand his feelings and position. It is scientifically frustrating that media perception and talking heads formed the narrative for the world, and the actual scientific process to evaluate all the complex yea and nay data coming in from so many sources was halted. And thus, so was the search for truth. But not completely, or we wouldn’t be here, talking now. That alone is a remarkable happening.

        Keep pushing it guys. If it’s true, you guys can find it and show it, and then there will be a Manhattan project.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        I’m wondering if A. Parkhomov does his experiment in an area of Moscow
        that looks like Manhattan… I doubt it, but you are in a position to go
        and find out!

      • Axil Axil

        Keep things simple, There are less complicated experiments out there using lasers and gold nano-powder in water that can increase the decay of radioactive isotopes by a factor of a billion and can also cause the fission of uranium. Those experiments have not even been replicated. Such experiments would reveal the same underlying science as the very much more complicated nickel hydrogen system. Why not start with them?

  • Bob Greenyer

    It was certainly not wasted time. We could not run the []=Project Dog Bone=[] thermal assessments as still waiting for Optris PI160 and Dr. Parkomov invited us for 26/2, and there is a LOT of logistics to work out before then.

  • Bob Greenyer

    As you are aware we took a fact finding mission to Sienna, just prior to Christmas. Just a nucleus team of myself and Mathieu for a 2 days (as we were closest), to see if it was a valuable direction and practical. The purpose was to minimise any outgoings on this potential experiment thread.

    There was nothing at all to indicate during that trip that we would not proceed in the way we operate. On many occasions we detailed how we would like to run an experiment and it is no mystery that we use LOS. Given this positive initial engagement and taking seriously Piantelli’s dire warnings about the state of his health, we took it upon ourselves to do everything possible to capture what we could, in case it was not an option later. If we are to believe in any Ni+H system, then Siena is the source, the only rational action was to take the opportunity to go.

    In just a few weeks, with your help, we managed to raise separate funds for this trip, organise all the logistics, excuse ourselves from our family, businesses and employment commitments and ship a full strength team from 6 countries, including a real time translator and videographer to Italy.

    Piantelli, despite having great difficulty with his health shared profusely.

    We would ask that people be patient as we work through the details with them. They read the posts here and over a wide array of forums and are very sensitive to public perception. You can help us by being respectful, the people involved have dignity and are well respected in their communities and for the businesses they run, this was very evident.

    We thank you all for your kind support.

    • Ged

      That is amazing to hear. It is a long walk to be sure, but the MFMP has been diligent and wise. Keep it up guys, we’re supporting you whole heartedly.

    • Gerard McEk

      I did not know that much was going on…
      All I can say is learn, capture as long as you can and when you are ready, show the world what LENR is!
      We rely on you guys!

  • Curbina

    I’m really glad they found a way around the NDA. Phew, I thought that had be the end of it.

  • Frechette

    English is a mongrel language. Seventy percent of English words have Latin roots. The other thirty percent come from German.

  • Frechette

    And I thought it was 1853-57: Eugenio Barsanti and Felice Matteucci who invented and patented an engine using the free-piston principle that was possibly the first 4-cycle internal combustion engine. Can’t get away from the Italians.

  • Gerard McEk

    A good decision Bob, I am glad that you did not sign this. It is sad that you are brought in this situation. I hope your good relationship with Piantelli did not suffer too much?

    • Bob Greenyer

      Actually, Piantelli was very friendly with us, often mocking and cracking jokes with us. He is a formidable man.

      That said, we cannot sign and NDA.

  • LuFong

    With Update #4, none of this sounds very good and I’m glad that a NDA agree was not signed. The cooperation agreement (which we haven’t seen) is a bit perplexing however–I thought MFMP and Piantelli were cooperating! Time to move on if you ask me. There’s certainly plenty to do.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Actually, Piantelli and NicHEnergy have continued to cooperate and meet and share with us since we refused to sign the NDA.

      The reality is, the MFMP is the first organisation that had been there to add value, rather than extract it, Piantelli could see that and at least said that he had never talked so freely about his work.

      We are not stopping our other work, we have been told that the Optris PI160 is made and may even be delivered to me tomorrow, in which case, I need to get it to the US!

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Being in software I often had to sign NDA’s. And in fact on some cases I signed non compete contracts.

        There is a difficult if not delicate balance here. You folks are in a great position to promote LENR and validations of this effect can only create more interest.

        On the flip side, be it those in Silicon Valley, or any company working with some technology, they cannot give the farm away. Thus the classic how can we promote and validate something based on someone’s IP rights but allow them to keep such rights?

        And often (if not most all) NDA’s are overreaching. As noted, in the cases where I signed such agreements there was benefits to me in that signing such agreements = more paying work. This is not your case – in other words, what benefits are to be had for the MMFP?

        I think the amazing part here NicHEnergy is so willing to cooperate. They not slammed the door nor have that “all or nothing” attitude.

        Hopefully some kind of arrangement can come to fruition that respects both parties and their interests. However, such agreements will remain a challenge for both parties.

        As you well note, all is not lost here. If MMFP is going to do a 3rd party replication based on NicHEnergy’s work, then I am hard pressed to see how they will not ask and want some kind of NDA. I dont’ see any other way.

        If NicHEnergy/Piantelli are offering to help you replicate the hot-cat based on their advice, then some agreement should not be too difficult, and not much restrictive to MMFP.

        Once again, thanks for all you doing here , and like the next episode of a great TV series, we always waiting for the next chapter!

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

        • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

          Yes, not cooperating may hinder the domain.

          Maybe MFMP could ask to make the NDA public, so people see there is no tricks, just commonsense IP protection.

          That is not charity, that is business.

          people having dared to oppose the consensus have been rdiculed, have broke their careers, lost all opportunities of recognition, and I estimate they deserve at least to have their IP protected so thay can try to make money and raise their two fingers at the face of the consensus…

          If none of those who dared to face the consensus can make big money, it will be unfair, it will be a reason for next generation of deniers of reality to follow the consensus and for possible dissenters to stay inline with the groupthink.

          I want the deniers to feel stupid, to feel they missed a billion in their pocket. “Paris vaut bien une messe” as said Henry 4.

          http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=517374&langid=6

  • Alberonn

    How come this does not seem illogical and does not come as a surprise at all, considering the possible motivations of Piantelli et al to invite MFMP, as amply discussed on this site…
    Please MFMP, stop wasting your precious (voluteer!) time and resources, accept the invitation of Parkhomov, before he draws attention of Putin&Friends and gets muzzled : no time to loose…

    • Bob Greenyer

      Parkhomov has invited us for the 26th Feb. We learnt how incredibly important it was in Italy to have a real-time translator at our disposal, we cannot thank our man more, and he volunteered his time. We need to organise that and visas etc (which means getting an invite first to come and stay).

      To be fair to Piantelli, it came across genuinely that he was really worried about the kind of meltdown he had and that if someone was to suffer an accident, the whole field might be shut down, he was in despair over it.

      • Eyedoc

        Great info Bob ….Thanks again for all you and teams efforts….Keep the POSITIVE ENERGY flowing 🙂

      • Axil Axil

        I have seen a call for a group buy of Hot-cat reactor replication material in a resent post on the web from a group of new holeyest experimenters just now coming into the E-Cat replication game. I surely hope that no one gets hurt.

        • Bob Greenyer

          So do we. It is not easy to do the sealing and quite apart from explosions or possible worse outcomes there is the risk of exposure to LiAlH4 (causing death according to Brian Ahern) or Nickel powders, causing permanent allergy (not good if you have Nickel in your coinage) and breathing problems. Piantelli’s severe breathing problems could in part be due to nickel particle exposure.

        • Sanjeev

          Where have you seen it ? Any links ?

  • Private Citizen

    Hey, keep it under your fedora guys. As for feline metaphors, the Piantelli device now would be the Cat in the Hat.

    “After a week of meetings and direct knowledge transfer” they pull out the NDA? Man, that’s a lot of talking about the weather.

    Looks like another LENR hope threatens to go bust: Celani, Paintelli–hopefully Parkhomov will not score the hat trick.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Piantelli has been through very difficult times and is still going strong – ask yourself who works hard at 81 that you know, he is driven.

  • guest

    “We then spent 4 full days, writing a cooperation agreement which respected both parties and which was well received by NicHEnergy.”
    Well done, MFMP team!

    • Robert Ellefson

      “Well done” would have been to work out a clear agreement _before_ investing such a significant amount of time and money on this trip. I count this as another leadership problem, IMHO.

      • Alain Samoun

        Well,MFMP obviously did not expect to have an NDA to sign. What NickEnergy was thinking?- Get MFMP to work for them for nothing? and they would receive all the benefits? In this context it is gracious to say “we wish to demonstrate incontrovertibly that Piantelli is the father of the Nickel Hydrogen system”