Rossi on Pre-ordered Domestic E-Cats

Someone raised the issue today on this site about whether the pre-orders for domestic E-Cats that people had sent years ago to Andrea Rossi when he first brought up the topic were still valid. So I put the question to Rossi on the Journal of Nuclear Physics, asking if people who are already on the pre-order list would have priority for receiving the first units produced, and received this response:

Andrea Rossi
January 20th, 2015 at 5:02 PM
Frank Acland:
Yes, the pre-orders will be handled as follows, if and when the domestic units will be put on the market: all the persons that have sent a pre-order will receive an offer: if they will confirm the order along the offer they will receive the E-Cat. Priority will not be a big issue, because when we will decide to put the domestic E-Cat in the market it will be produced in big numbers, so that it is likely that the delivery term will not be a big issue.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Note that he says here, “if and when” the domestic E-Cats appear on the market. It’s not guaranteed that they will, but it does sound like Industrial Heat is making a concerted effort to get these units certified. If I recall correctly, at one point Rossi said that he had received orders for about 200,000 units.

When he originally spoke about the domestic units, Rossi explained they were designed for home heat systems and could be installed in existing central heating systems. We will have to wait to find out what the cost of these units might be, but it sounds like high-volume, low-cost production is Industrial Heat’s strategy with these E-Cats. They apparently expect that reverse engineering will take place, and Rossi says they plan to sell them at price points low enough to discourage people from selling copies.

Personally I’m not raising my expectations to high about the domestic E-Cats at this point. I will be very glad to see them show up on the market, but I don’t want to try to predict when that time might come.

  • Omega Z

    Modern H-efficiency gas furnaces have different options.
    Such as 2 stage burners that very the temp recovery according to outside temps & variable speed blowers are available(At A COST).
    Also, Electronic thermostats are available with as little as 1 degree temperature variance. Plus/Minus 0.5 degree.

    These work to some degree, but without uniform results. In an Idealistic situation they may work well, but I have yet to find such a situation. Just to many variables between different homes.

    Modern High Efficiency Gas Furnace:
    About 1 to 1.5 minutes to blower starting(It’s a step process) & 1 to 2 minutes to blower shut down. These are adjustable to a small degree by the installer. Sometimes called comfort control so as people wont complain about cold air blowing at start/end of cycle. Most have multiple speed control S/M/H that are set by the installer for different circumstances or different speed capable for AC/Heat use all set by installer. Not user accessible.

    As posted above, there is a variable speed blower also for comfort purposes & I guess it’s cheaper then 15 years ago if you figure for inflation. $600 back then & still $600 today. Almost as much as a wholesale furnace by itself. One of my past Speculations that was wrong. I thought for sure it would be less then $300 by now. I have to save face here. I wasn’t wrong, They just refuse to drop the price so I could be right. The B-turds 🙂

    The E-cats, Last known required an hour to start up/shut down. Shut down isn’t a problem. From what Rossi said one time, this shut down period may be of benefit under a certain scenario.

    Example: Shut down has been in process for 20 minutes. It can be brought back to full power in 20 minutes Not requiring the full hour for start up.. Some possible play room. We’ll have to wait & see what the Cat-mouse home unit provides on flexibility. One hour start up just doesn’t work very well & 24/7 can make it little or non beneficial depending on where one lives.

  • Omega Z

    No. It must be certified.
    Certification is that if used under manufactures instructions is safe to use & has been Certified(validated) as such by UL or other qualified 3rd party government designated agency that stress tested it under those circumstances.

    Your electric motor has been certified for certain uses by such a 3rd party. If you choose to throw it in a pool of water & electrocute yourself or others It’s on you. You misused it.

    This is about liability. In the above electrocution situation, I can sue you if I’m hurt. The electric motor manufacturer I can’t touch as long as it was manufactured as certified(Without faulty components).

    If it wasn’t certified, I can sue the manufacturer no matter what they say & no matter what wavers the client signed.(Wavers seldom hold up in court)
    In most Countries, You can’t even obtain Insurance to manufacture & “SELL” uncertified products unless you do it under false pretense. You’re going to jail…

    If you use an uncertified product in your home that requires certification, Your home owners insurance is null & void. If someone gets hurt or damage occurs it comes back on you and whoever produced the device. This can include jail time.

    Question.
    Do you really think we should just take the manufactures word that something is safe? Do you really want to use something in your home that hasn’t been certified safe? Something that could burn down your home while you & your children are asleep in the night.

  • http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/ barty

    “if” the domestic ecat appear on market is decided as rossi always says “by the market”.
    If the competition starts producing domestic LENR devices, they have to too.

    • Omega Z

      Barty
      The competition will also have to have certification before they sell domestic products. It is a matter of liability & not just financial as in being sued, but possibly a long time in jail.

      Also, if you used such a non-certified device, You might as well drop your homeowners insurance. It would be a waste of money as it will be null & void should something go wrong.

      If you are still making payments on the home or a mortgage & don’t have or can’t obtain insurance, This could also be grounds for forfeiture as this could make the lien holder liable.

      • Ronzonni

        I am pretty sure that industrial products need similar if not identical certification. It’s hard to see the difference between selling a single ecat reactor and an assembly of a hundred with complicated interconnections.

        It’s also an interesting question to ask what has happened with the group of megawatt plants delivered to the US military. What were they used for? Did they work well?

        • ecatworld

          There’s no statement from Rossi or anyone else saying a group of megawatt plants were delivered to the US military. There was a statement about orders, but nothing about manufacturing or delivering those plants. Rossi has only said that one plant was sent to a military customer (secret) and he did not identify it as a US military customer.

          • BroKeeper

            I often wondered if Rossi made a deal with the US to get Visa/Citizenship and non-interference/non-disclosure towards commercialization while he was in Italy for the plant.

            • Omega Z

              Rossi received a Visa Long ago from Jimmy Carter I believe.

              • BroKeeper

                That’s interesting, but visas have expiration dates. Perhaps his didn’t. ???

        • Omega Z

          Industrial certifications are different. In an Industrial setting, you have trained technicians present during operation.

          Rossi has received an Industrial certification & I believe in 2012, a link to that certification was posted on an ECW thread.

  • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

    the problem is that individual reactors have to be fool-proof and totally self-caring.

    industrial devices can require to be monitored by competent staff, and can require regular maintenance.

    • Ronzonni

      Hi Alain. I don’t understand. I was careful to specify that the single reactors would not be for individuals but for universities and industrial users. Why does Rossi have to sell 100 units together, requiring a complex control system? The question that puzzles me is why he can’t sell just one or a few of the modules. Not to individuals but to industry where trained and careful people can monitor them.

      • Omega Z

        With a 1Mw pilot plant, IH/Rossi have control over the IP. It is under control by their people. Distributing it at this time even to Universities isn’t an option until 1. A patent is issued, or 2. Industrial Heat is ready for mass production.

        Here’s something to consider seeing as Rossi/IH don’t yet have a Patent of their own.

        You give a device to a University that studies it, Files & Receives a patent on “YOUR” technology. You want to Build E-cats, You’ll need to Pay the University a Licensing Fee.

        Note, The University doesn’t need to patent all of the technology. All they need is to patent a single key element. Just 1 little thing that makes it all come together. It’s like you having a 1000 piece puzzle, but can’t complete it because I have the 1 piece that makes it complete. Pay me or I’ll keep it.

        If you think a University wouldn’t do something of this nature given an opportunity, you are very Naive. They would & have done these thing in the past. It’s an Inventors worst nightmare. Having to pay to use his own technology.

        • Ronzonni

          Suppose all of that is true, how does Rossi retain control of IP if he sells 100 units together as opposed to selling one or a few? What is to stop someone at the company he sells his megawatt plant to from doing all the things you mentioned above?

          I don’t think it’s possible to sell something and yet “retain control” of it. Once it’s sold, it doesn’t belong to you any more.

          • Omega Z

            In the Pilot plant of the customer, IH has people present 24/7.
            I would suppose that once this is consolidated & they prepare to produce on a large scale, they will have a battery of lawyers pushing for the granting of the patent And any who try to hijack the system at that point can look to be tied up in court until they are financially drained for infringement.

            Note that a working product as would be proven by a validated pilot plant can be used to force a patent.

            Another thing to consider. For some time, It will be self defending.
            Say you are a food processor & your using an Industrial Heat LT 1Mw power plant. This device gives you say a 50% savings in processing costs of the food stocks. Are you going to let anyone near it that isn’t suppose to be. In other words, Are you willingly going to give up your advantage to a competitor.

            Probably not. That is a very competitive business. A few dollars is the difference of existing or going broke. Add to that, It sounds as if these plants are going to be internet connected for some time & monitored by Industrial heat. They would become aware of any tampering immediately.

            Now, No doubt, people will take any opportunity to learn how it works, but they will have to develop their own product IP if they intend to go to market. This is normal inevitable Business practice & Rossi/IH are well aware of this. They just want to keep a time advantage. A step ahead of the competition.

  • builditnow

    Industrial Heat / Rossi is probably strategically trying to own the market, like the Wright brothers tried to own heavier than air flight. All those resisting LENR are playing right into Rossi’s hands right now, they are helping to make Rossi the first multi trillionaire by giving him an excellent lead over everyone. Maryugo probably invested in Industrial Heat and wants to make a killing when The Cats go to market.

    • Omega Z

      I disagree about owning the Market. It’s more about grabbing market share as competitors will quickly appear. Even this does not guarantee a long term presence. Many 1st to market entities do not exist today. It only takes a single new innovation by a competitor to displace the 1st to market entities.

      Rossi a Multi Trillionaire. Never going to happen.
      Your confusing Gross market product value of Power plants etc.
      Rossi will receive only a small royalty on the wholesale value of E-cat reactors.

      This is like comparing a $5 dollar box of breakfast cereal that originates from 10 cents worth of corn that the Farmer, If he’s lucky made 1 cent in profits. That equates to a 10% profit of 10 cents in sales or 1/500th of gross sale. Rossi’s percentage would be in the 2% range of that 10 cents or 1/2500th of gross sales.

      Now, Obviously, were talking substantially more then 10 cents for a wholesale E-cat reactor price And there is little Doubt that Rossi or his estate will receive Billions of dollars, But Trillions never.

      There is also no guarantee of Billions as it will take several years just to gear up production which will eat into a 20 year IP protection & the possibility of a single innovation by a competitor that could make Rossi’s reactor obsolete in short order.

      One aspect unknown by us that could make a big difference to Rossi’s financial gains. Did he sell his IP in entirety for a fee & royalties or did he retain partner shares in IH & how many. This could easily make him the next Bill Gates twice over barring demise from competitors.

      A retention by Rossi of say 50 million shares that split 2/1 or 3/1 several times over a few years valued in excess of $100 a share could be worth 100 to 200 Billion$ long before sales themselves provided such a ROI.

      Regardless, The growing awareness of LENR has made this all a race in time. Rossi/IH are under the gun. Tho we hear very little, I can imagine they are very anxious to get this prepared for market.
      On your marks, Get set, —–

      • bachcole

        “Rossi a Multi Trillionaire” I agree that Rossi will never be a multi-trillionaire. 1st, he is too old. He will pass to his reward (consequences) long before he gets past $50 billion. 2nd, he is just not the kind of guy that would be so hard driving about the almighty dollar. That would be more Krivit’s style. 3rd, people will reverse engineer it before his 1st $billion and by his 10th $billion, the game will be over.

  • fritz194

    The old concept was kind of afterburner to an existing heater. Modern heaters are modulated – so they may operate in a wide power range: for example 3kW up to 15kW. The system is designed to avoid on/off cycles. If operated with fixed temperature – the needed power is controlled. If the e-cat can supply a fixed amount of power – it would make sense to activate it on reaching a fixed limit – for example 6kW – and deactivate if temperature is too high. The existing heating will turn off once circulation temperature is reached – and start if falls below certain limit. A typical temperature profile with reduced temperature at daytime and night would have 2 heat phases – both started with existing gear. On setup with constant temperature – the efficiency of the e-cat will depend on how the maximum e-cat power can be limited. If I just need 3-6kW – a 4kW e-cat would have fewer on/off cycles than an 8kW unit.

  • Gerard McEk

    I guess for an optimal COP you need to run it continuously on its optimal temperature. So in autumn you switch it on and in spring off…. 😉

    • BroKeeper

      Or provide a damper that opens to expel unwanted heat to the outdoors when desired temperature is reached. Oooops! more global warning.

      • dean

        that is how I want to operate mine. lots of fresh air added to my home. then my wife will get of my back about installing a Radon reduction system, or frying bacon

        • Omega Z

          Your Wife don’t like Bacon. Blasphemy me thinks.

      • Omega Z

        You know, It;s not cheap if you throw it out.

        I new a Gal that bought 3 quarts of strawberries because they were so cheap. $1 verse the regular price of $3 a quart.
        No one in her family liked strawberries including her.
        Oh well. At least when she threw them out, she only threw out $3 instead of $9. True Story-

  • BroKeeper

    Roger, Good question. I just presented the SSM question to Dr. Rossi. Hope it doesn’t go into the ‘Wait until customer test is over’ bucket.

    • BroKeeper

      Yep. 🙂

      BroKeeper:
      We are working on both the issues you cited.
      Real data will
      be supplied at the end of the R&D and test period.
      So far I can’t say
      anything consistent.
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

      • Omega Z

        BroKeeper:
        I’m far more concerned with the Start up time. 1 Hour.
        That is the Make/Brake question even with a COP>10…

  • fritz194

    Having worldwide safety certification for a domestic product in that class is a difficult procedure. So I think – that the recognition of pre-orders will be limited to areas with available applicable safety certification. Obtaining an UL certification for an electronic gadget – and fullfill local add-ons is simple. Getting such certification for a domestic heater with unknown operation principle might be a challenging task. Especially if it is meant as somewhat “afterburner” to an existing system. Components of traditional systems are manufactored by few companies only – for example “bosch” in europe. If existing components are connected with addons – the safety certification of the existing components might get invalid. In case you are connected to a grid – as with LPG heaters – you would even need an agreement / certification with a special LPG supplier… So a standalone-usage of a domestic e-cat would be highly preferable – as this minimizes “compatibility” issues and the need for local certification.

    • Omega Z

      I believe UL certification is acceptable in most of the World as it has high & mostly universal standards.

      The E-cat will be tougher getting certified because of the unknowns of a new technology. Tho according to Rossi’s statements, The LT 1Mw reactor data can be used in the certification process.

      Each of the 100 reactors having it’s own data stream will be very beneficial in this process. That’s 100 reactors, each providing roughly 8K hours of operation or approximately 800K hours combined in a year. Just a few of these LT 1Mw units could quickly provide Millions of operating hours of data. I’m speculating that it could be certified in about 2 years if all goes well.

  • TomR

    The fact that they are getting ready for the time, when they get a safety certification, on the domestic E-Cat, is very encouraging.

    • NT

      Thanks Frank for asking this question and I am glad to hear that our preorders are still good…

  • hempenearth

    That’s comforting, thanks Frank.