Andrea Rossi Explains Why IH Won’t Help MFMP

On the Journal of Nuclear Physics, Andrea Rossi was asked by David Kaiser, whether he might give a little help to the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project as a Christmas gift, adding that with the possibility of social breakdown and world war on the cards, that Industrial Heat may not have anyone to sell their E-Cats to.

Andrea Rossi replied:

David Kaiser:
Our team is making all the investments and R&D necessary to bring to the market this technology and the first 1 MW industrial plant already hit the market, thanks to our Team. Obviously the loss of Intellectual Property would stop any serious investment. Look at Microsoft’s business model ( from which we all have to learn) and learn how the Intellectual Property is at the essential base of any substantial investment that can bring to the common benefit a new technology. When our domestic small E-Cats will hit the market we will not have anymore a reverse engineering problem, as I already explained, because the economy scale will allow prices that will make competition not convenient. We are working on it. Requests of gifts as the one you are making are not generous attempts to give to the mankind a new technology, but attempts to get for free the fruits of 20 years of work, through what for you is an unimmaginable series of troubles, sacrifices and a good share of insults, blackmails, threats of any kind and also attempts to make me pass again through what I passed through 20 years ago, utilizing the same system and some of the same persons: the play did not succeed because what 20 years ago was enough to destroy me, today can’t even scratch me, due to the fact that such experiences either kill you or make you much stronger.
The First Principle of Thermodynamics should have teached to you that free meals do not exist. You can’t make the “Kaiser” with the Army of the others. Should I take seriously your request of Christmas gift, nobody could invest seriously in this technology and it would remain a social game. Quite a dangerous one.
I wish you a wonderful 2015, as well as, again, to all our Readers.
A.R.

Rossi here is covering themes that he has gone over before when readers have suggested that he reveal his secrets as a gift to mankind. He is of the firm belief that the traditional industrialist/capitalist business model where intellectual property is is the one that brings the greatest overall benefit to society, as it leads to the investment needed for mass production and proliferation of technology. Also that there should be some kind of compensation for the work and associated trials he has gone through. It’s interesting that he considers that giving away his secrets would be quite a dangerous social game.

Rossi has spoken recently again of the domestic E-Cats hitting the market — as if it is part of the plan — and that when they do, there will be no worries for Industrial Heat regarding reverse engineering, because he believes economies of scale will make their products so cheap that no one will bother trying to copy their tech.

He seems quite confident these days — possibly that’s because things are going well with the 1 MW plant. Having working E-Cats mass produced on the market would be a tremendous achievement. But we’re not there yet, and it seems like it will be later this year, at the earliest, before we get confirmation of all he has been saying regarding IH’s commercial plans.

  • attaboy

    See my comments above to Omega Z. Information on how to quickly go about the construction of new physical devices and methods of getting to performance expectations has been worked out ad nausea within the mechanical engineering discipline among other sources. Sorry, but the e-cat is long overdue.

  • Omega Z

    How do you compare incremental improvements in an existing science & an existing market to a product that never before existed.

    You are working with base elements of which much existing knowledge is already known & learning to formulate them into new products. You are building upon knowledge of a vast number of others before you.

    In LENR, The base elements of the technology are still being discovered & identified. In a science that is supposed to be impossible with very little existing knowledge base available from others & no excepted theory to guide them.

    And lets not forget, as a new technology, there are many unknowns & Rossi going to the UL Certifiers & stating it’s intrinsically safe isn’t going to cut it. They want real operational safety data. Thus we find a pilot plant in an industrial setting where qualified personnel are present during all operations 24/7.

    I’m certain once certified & in the market, we will see incremental improvements on about a 4 year cycle.

    • attaboy

      “How do you compare incremental improvements in an existing science & an existing market to a product that never before existed.”

      I don’t think this applies to any extent here. My work was hardly existing science where much of what we did would be better classed as alchemy and poorly understood.

      While Rossi’s technology is certainly brilliant and of genius status, despite the fact that we don’t know enough to replicate it, it can’t be that difficult.

      I don’t buy your arguments and your motivation is , frankly, suspect.

      We need this technology so badly that it should have been jumped on by any right minded authority, pushed through, and been in commercialization long ago. But in our corporate controlled academic, military, political system, commercialization will be a long time coming.

      • clovis ray

        it can’t be that hard, right, why don’t you whip us up a working reactor or two, while you thinking about it, i surly would like to know how it works, my motivations are the truth, not theory, trust but verify,, here is the truth, IH will announce the e-cat , as soon as their test is complete, then game over.

        • attaboy

          Just looking at the picture of that last Rossi test will tell you it can’t be that difficult. The device couldn’t be much simpler. Sorry if you feel I stepped on your integrity, but its hard for me to imagine a person claiming the experience you have, to feel the pace of progress is acceptable. I’m sure you’re not (or at least hope you’re not) a shill for the powerful corporate blood suckers, but it wouldn’t be hard to believe that based on your statements.

          • bachcole

            Dang! Busted! I am also patient, so I guess I am another shill for the powerful corporate blood suckers. I do so wish that they would pay me for my patience. It just doesn’t seem fair, them sucking all that blood-money and me worried about staying in our budget. (:->)

  • Pekka Janhunen

    The E-cat is not patented (to my knowledge), if so, then copying it is not illegal in any country

    • Omega Z

      Aside from several patents applied for, Rossi does have an Italian patent that was granted.. I don’t know what it’s standing would be in the international arena, but he has one.

  • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

    It is impossible to run an independent experiment on a device that is not available. As far as I can tell, there have been no truly independent tests. MFMP has begun to test *a similar configuration,* but could not definitively show no XP, because they don’t have the formula or other possible necessary details. Therefore they cannot disconfirm XP. They can only show failure to replicate. They *can* develop useful information that *might* impeach the Lugano results.

    Parkhomov is another story. Parkhomov presents his work as a Lugano confirmation, but we don’t know how close his formula is to the Lugano fuel. However, Parkhomov appears, on the face, to be replicable. The Parkhomov experiment uses a single measure, and is lacking, as to what has been released, confirmation. The data in the Parkhomov report, analyzed, shows clear signs that there was no XP. However, then, that creates a conflict with the evaporative loss results. There are, again, signs in the data that this is artifact, but in the absence of more information, no definitive conclusion is possible.

    One should be aware in LENR studies of the “file-drawer effect.” It is possible that there have been many attempts to replicate Lugano that have been failed, but they have not been published. Thus what might be an occasional artifact may be seen as “confirmed results.” Pseudoskeptics overstate the file drawer effect, because there are research groups that have published all their work (in a particular investigation), plus there is, with palladium deuteride reactions, a confirmed and correlated nuclear product, helium.

    Nevertheless, the possibility must be kept in mind. Trust and verify.

    The proof of Rossi’s claims will very likely not come from any controlled demonstration, Rossi has made his intention clear. The proof will come from an available commercial product.

    I estimate the value to society of functioning LENR to be on the order of a trillion dollars per year. Therefore delay is costing us that. Therefore we cannot rely upon what we cannot control, at all, the success of a private entrepreneur. If he’s successful, great! Meanwhile, the clock is ticking. The history of LENR is littered with companies that made optimistic announcements of products “available this year or soon.” Often, they simply disappear, sometimes we know what happened. Consider Defkalion. It *looked like* they were ahead of Rossi. They had, in appearance, direct control of the reaction (through spark stimulation). What happened? Their CTO, John Hadjjichristos, left their employ, his Linked-In resume says, in October, 2014. Neither he nor anyone else from Defkalion has explained the situation from their point of view. Was all their XP based on the same artifact? Or was there other evidence? We don’t know. Vanished like a dream, so far, anyway.

    They were not taken down by “pathoskeptics.” They were taken down by their own hubris. There was much debate among LENR scientists about Defkalion. No survey was taken, but many did not trust them, and some did. The same is the case for Rossi.

    When they do not have data, scientists are just as dumb as everyone else. Some however, will recognize that they don’t have data. Some will look carefully at the data that exists. Watch.

    MFMP is serving this effort.

  • Евгений Максимов

    Ask to do translation turns out perfectly for it.
    RyuMaster Gorskov

  • LilyLover

    This is again beyond you – Communism is not the only alternative to Capitalism.
    It’s the “well meaning” stupid people that pull down humanity.
    Like they say – wise enemy – stupid friend.

    Just be good and stop communist propaganda…
    Bye.

  • Warthog

    Sorry, but no. I’ve worked with instrumentation at and near 1400C and the emissions were nowhere near “brightly incandescent” (graphite chips under an inert atmosphere in fused silica tube heated in an RF furnace). “Warm yellow” best describes it.

  • Warthog

    I’m sure he does (as do we all).

    You need to take your gripe up with Arkiv and the folks who refuse to publish the work. In one of the earlier tests, the initial Arkiv submission was corrected to account for “errors” pointed out by critics. YOU are assuming that no such corrections have been submitted to Arkiv. A higher probability is that (as usual) “the fix is in” and Arkiv is simply refusing to publish a corrected version.

    I’ve followed the “criticisms”, and the vast majority of them are simply BS, quibbling about effects that might cause a few percent of error. The classic one is all the hoopla about the IR camera(s) “not being accurate due to emissivity differences”…totally ignoring the stated facts that a calibration tag from the manufacturer of the camera was affixed to one end of the E-Cat alumina shell, AND that the researchers also obtained a sample of the same alumina comprising the shell specifically in order to determine the emissivity. AND ignoring the fact that there was parallel data from thermocouples…a technique that cannot possibly have an “emissivity error”. AND ignoring the fact that even if there were an un-accounted-for “emissivity error”, it would STILL be corrected by the data from the “control run”.

  • Mike Ivanov

    After Bologna, Lugano, Parkhomov tests, Piantelli patents – I think the chances what Rossi has nothing are quite low…

  • Mike Ivanov

    There is a common mistake here: Soviet Union and other countries marked as “communists countries” by mistake, never reach actual communist state as it is defined. They all been “countries of socialism”. Which is actually government based capitalism with safety net for the poor :). Real communism requires extremely high development of industries, probably fully robotized and managed by A.I., then people can just have everything they need for free. Capitalism can reach this state as well 🙂

  • Mike Ivanov

    То есть катализатор может взять энергию ниоткуда в замкнутой системе? Я правильно понял вашу школьную химию? 🙂

    • Евгений Максимов

      А кто сказал, что система замкнута?:)
      Замкнутая система всегда приходит в равновесие.
      В случае получения аммиака, удаляется продукт реакции, потому нет равновесия.
      В случае с е-катом Росси, отводится энергия в виде тепла.
      Если не отводить тепло и замкнуть систему в абсолютном теплоизоляторе, то и реактор Росси работать перестанет.
      Катализатор просто расплавится и перестанет адсорбировать водород.
      Кстати, критичным параметром температуры внутри реактора и объясняется цикличность его работы.

      По поводу внутренней энергии катализатора. Это просто свойство материи, в данном случае свойство кристаллической решетки никеля.
      Никель, палладий, медь хорошо адсорбируют водород.
      Железо практически никак. Вот так природа распорядилась:)
      А вот откуда эта энергия – физического вакуума, эфира или еще чего-то это неразрешима задача теоретиков.

      Сила тяготения тоже вечна по своей сути.
      Но что является переносчиком этой энергии и чем она обусловлена – пока так и загадка.

      • ecatworld

        This is a reply not only to you, but to anyone else posting not in English.

        As a courtesy to other readers here, if you post in a non-English language, please also include an English translation (computer translation is fine)

        Many thanks.

      • Mike Ivanov

        Ok, no more questions :).

  • Mike Ivanov

    Why we should care about people like him???

  • Omega Z

    For a new technology, this is moving at break neck speed. For us watching, it just doesn’t seem like it.
    It’s like waiting for water to boil. Pun intended.

  • clovis ray

    Hi, Fisher, AR and industrial heat, are not so worried about our group having an E-CAT, or even our friends or humanitarian gestures toward 3 world country’s
    but the moment you start to market them, then they will want their cut, and that is more than right, mind you this is just my opinion.

  • LilyLover

    Per my guess, Rossi seems to be averse to anything more than 10% profits.
    So, Saudi-oil example is irrelevant. I know IH is in control – yet, I say Rossi will implicate a profit margin less than 10%

  • LilyLover

    It’s better than not playing Robin Hood.
    BUT since your statistical sampling techniques are primitive, let me remind you – his important point is – “there is enough.” No need to steal from some to give the others. Let’s all be more thoughtful and more caring and stop dig-ditch and fill-ditch jobs and overall let’s all be rich.

    Your imagination stems from scarcity-based paradigms.
    One thing I admire though – is food charity – that you do.
    Property rights – what you earned by your deeds belongs to you everything else that is “passed down” to you is simply “dinosaur-contracts-unenforced” due to extinct language. In essence, if eagles had paper-based communications, would that make them land “owners”? Who knows for all we know you are a thief from the point of view of penguins or cats. It was their land, you came, you built a house on it. What it ranslates to in today’s world – is “me wanna be mini-monarch” … why? cause this paper proves that I “own” it.

    • Warthog

      My comments stem from a knowledge of history, and what has been shown in the real world to work.

      Socialism and centralized government control has failed miserably wherever tried, resulting in “the equality of poverty” (except, of course, for the “nomenclatura”). The recent institution of property rights in countries where they were weak or nonexistent has resulted in a rapid increase in the standard of living in those countries.

      Have they caught up with the “West” yet?? Some have (South Korea), or are coming close, while the rest are gaining rapidly.

      The one point that is correct in your post is “there is enough” (or will be, once it has been produced, by methods established by “evil capitalism”).

      • bachcole

        In 1921, in Ireland, when they became independent of Great Britain, I would have started off the country with a law that would have applied only at that moment of independence: If you live some place, you own it. After that, it’s every man or woman for themselves. They had the situation where landowners were British and lived in England. The Irish so-called independence was sort of bogus since the British landowners still owned the land, still had nothing but contempt for their renters, and still oppressed the Irish people.

      • LilyLover

        “My comments stem from a knowledge of history, and what has been shown in the real world to work.”
        >>
        Perhaps in the immoral and coward World. Bravery differential is manipulated to avoid parasites being wiped out. “Shown” !! You dream … tolerence of aggression by the weak is negative violence which you take it as “working” for that allows you to feel less parasitic.

        “Socialism and centralized government control has failed miserably wherever tried, resulting in “the equality of poverty” (except, of course, for the “nomenclatura”).”
        >>
        Perfectly agree. I neither propose socialism nor the centralized control.
        These are the antithesis of progress.

        “The recent institution of property rights in countries where they were weak or nonexistent has resulted in a rapid increase in the standard of living in those countries.”
        >>
        Scientific advancements, people waking up to the fiat currency and the people of that country showing “bravada” is the reason quality of life is increasing. Not the phony property rights.

        “Have they caught up with the “West” yet?? Some have (South Korea), or are coming close, while the rest are gaining rapidly.”
        >>
        This is not out of property rights – but parasite can only grow so much and then the autotrophes realize their folly of ways and then they catch-up.

        “The one point that is correct in your post is “there is enough” (or will
        be, once it has been produced, by methods established by “evil
        capitalism”).”
        >>
        Capitalism is not evil. Definitely not per me. If you think so, you are deluded. By methods produced by good scientists – despite of Socialism or despite of Capitalism or essentially despite parasitism and societal spite spewed upon scientists.

  • Alain Samoun

    These cats are hot!

  • Alain Samoun

    Is that your blog Ocean?

  • Mike Ivanov

    Пархомов не упоминал про тестирование изотопного состава вообще, возможно его не делалось или еще не готовы результаты.

  • Ted-X

    One system WHICH WORKED was by made by reforming capitalism. They made terrible “mistakes”/horrible things in other areas, but not in their economy. The profits were simply limited to 6% and the large corporations were split, as far as I understand. They were against multi-national corporations. They recovered from depression twice as fast as the US. I am not promoting them, as they have done horrible things in other areas, but those other things are used as an excuse not to analyze their reformed capitalist economy. But their economy and the social benefits were excellent. I will be probably attacked for using them as an example.

    • Warthog

      So what was this example??? “Reformed capitalism” is more or less what I have in mind (assurance of honest dealings and of competition…as opposed to “crony capitalism”).

      • bachcole

        The Chinese (communists) have a way (that does not work perfectly) that insures “reformed capitalism” that does not drift into “crony capitalism”. That way is capital punishment (a fitting title) for bribery. I support this idea as a constitutional amendment.

  • Omega Z

    I don’t have a problem with the Lugano team not responding to questions. You can bat flies forever & no answers will satisfy those who don’t want to be satisfied. Some can find flaws even with a perfect test.

    I do wonder why they included some information in certain respects when none would have been better. Don’t give me some details of certain aspects if you’re contractually not allowed to provide all the data. You just open a can of worms.

    Ultimately, the only people they are obliged to give all the information(100%) to is those who paid for the test. Primarily Elforsk, Industrial Heat, and possibly 1 or 2 others. We in the blogs are just along for the ride. They owe us nothing.

    Rossi could have easily just went dark after selling his technology to Industrial Heat. WOW, Just imagine the conspiracy theories then. It’s been bought up & buried. We’ll never hear of it again.

    We need to make a distinction between what Rossi claims & blogger imaginations. Rossi claims to have a Low-temp 10Kw reactor with COP>6 probably just lacking sufficient longevity & safety data. Possibly higher COP. Everything else is still R&D. The Blogger fans are already producing Electricity & COP>100 with temps exceeding the melting point of Nickel.

    There is a disconnect from reality. 10Kw is impressive, yet very little. Controlling 1 reactor is simple compared to controlling 100 in concert. Rossi has conveyed this yet no one hears. They think the Reactor is simple. Rossi thinks it is complex. While Rossi has become more pragmatic & cautious in his statements, the bloggers have went the other way to the extent of resisting Rossi’s restrained statements. It has taken on a life of it’s own.

    • Mike Ivanov

      I think it is too late to bury this technology, and this is a good news.

      Even 10kWt single generator is huge. I do not think it is so difficult to run a battery of these generators, considering modern controllers and algorithms . Stability and reliability are two real key factors for commercialization.

      • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

        There are have been lots of signs that Rossi doesn’t have “stability and reliability.” Lugano seems to contradict that, which is one reason why the MFMP calibration of Lugano could be important.

        However, in the end, Lugano is not “science,” it’s business and publicity. Lugano cannot be replicated, as such. To replicate, you need the devices, or information on how to build them, which is missing. MFMP may or may not independently find what works, following up on clues from Lugano. I strongly prefer that, when it comes to testing fuels, they start, not with Lugano, but with Parkhomov, and use the Parkhomov reactor design. Even if I think that Parkhomov’s results may be artifact. The method was brilliant.

        • Mike Ivanov

          I haven’t seen any “signs” of Rossi stability problems. I think it is a smoke to cover real progress as long as possible and go to market as a surprise, without any competitors ready to answer. Any businessman with already secured investment could do something like this.

          • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

            Stability or reliability problems have been the major problem with cold fusion from the beginning. It’s the most obvious reason for long-term shortfall in promised delivery. A reliability problem can be tantalizing, it seems like “there are just a few kinks to work out.” The first “independent professor test” had one reactor melt down. Rossi has never predicted the actual heat that will be observed. With a reliable, stable design, he could easily do that. None of this is proof. All could be a smokescreen. However, I consider it likely.

    • Kevin O

      I don’t have a problem with the Lugano team not responding to questions.

      ***I do. They should be defending their report with vigor. They should have had a website set up ahead of time for answering such questions. They should be revising their report due to the questions within weeks. They claim to be advancing science but they are holding it back. They’re too concerned with how it looks than with the raw data, which should be speaking for itself. And they should have contracted with Rossi to have followup tests done for covering what they failed to observe.

      • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

        I strongly suspect they are under an agreement to not individually answer questions. The practice of stonewalling criticism goes way back. Essen, to my knowledge, never responded to criticism of his idea that steam quality could be measured with a humidity meter, nor to the lack of checking for overflow water from that early demonstration. Overflow water would be, in fact, expected from the Rossi design. Otherwise the reactor would overheat and run away. Rossi, in the Krivit video, obviously empties water from the outlet hose, so that Levi can show Krivit the steam. Which is obviously far less steam than expected from the claimed power. This has gone on and on for years.

        It’s obvious to me: Rossi does not want a definitive demonstration. He’s proven brilliant at setting up what tantalizes but does not clearly establish that he’s got a product anywhere near ready for market. There are always major lacunae in what is reported, such as the lack of calibration of the Lugano calorimetry.

        I don’t think we can count on Rossi for *anything.*

  • Omega Z

    I actually agree with Bill’s pragmatic thinking. You need today’s technology to get you through to tomorrows. To shut everything old down would be a disaster.

    I recall years ago, people protesting a Nuclear power plant north of Chicago. They wanted it shut down immediately. I always wondered what they would have done had the authorities bowed to their demands. Going home to Chicago only to find all their appliances non working. No lights, nothing. I can hear them Now. How could the Government allow this to happen. Silly people.

    In the Video, they say Gates has a Billion invested in Exxon. That size of investment equates to having influence in certain matters. They may not react to what he has to say, but, They have to listen.

  • Omega Z

    There is no doubt that competitors will reverse engineer Rossi’s technology & devise a technique of their own that can be patented & marketed.

    I highly doubt garage mechanics will build their own unless it is just a hobbyist who likes to tinker. There are many things in the market that we can replicate, but don’t. It’s so much easier & cheaper to buy them. Guaranteed, certified & all.

    • clovis ray

      agreed,