Nissan CEO: Electric Car’s Range to Double, While Shrinking Battery Size (Gerard McEk)

Thanks to Gerard McEk for posting this comment on the Always On thread.

Interesting news: proper car batteries may soon hit the market. This in combination with LENR will replace all other energy sources!

Link to the original article on the Daily Kanban website: http://dailykanban.com/2014/12/battery-breakthrough-nissan-poised-take-range-off-table/

A couple of quotes from the article:

In a late night interview at Tokyo’s Business News channel, a relentless host pressed [Nissan CEO] Carlos Ghosn for answers about the future of Nissan’s electric vehicle program. Is Nissan working on new batteries? Ghosn: “Yes.” Can you tell us more? Ghosn: “No.” Will the range double? Ghosn: “Yes.” That means more than 400 km? Ghosn: “Yes.”

“Commercial applications could be no more than one model cycle away,” said an engineer who is not supposed to talk to me. According to the source, the new battery delivers twice the capacity while weighing – and costing – less than the current shorter range model.

  • Frechette

    Gasoline for small aircraft fuel has a good safety record. Not so for lithium batteries. They were already banned in Emergency Locators Transmitters (ELT’s)back in the 1970’s.

  • Daniel Maris

    There’s another factor as well I think – the development of electric cars will go well with the development of even cheaper PV panelling that can be applied to your home. So effectively there is no charge for fuel (beyond the amortised capital cost).

  • Doug Cutler

    Its probably solid state lithium and, if so, would likely have a similar lifespan to current lithium which has been improving of late. Other batteries under development like lithium- sulfur are showing very high densities but poor lifespans and so require more R&D.

    Carlos Goshen at Nissan has proved himself a serious player in the EV world taking the Nissan Leaf into the market lead against the likes of Tesla and Chevy Volt. He’s exceeded expectations before and sounds very confident with this development. Plus, many others have been making similar claims about solid state lithium.

  • Frechette

    There may be a ban on transporting lithium batteries on commercial aircraft according to the FAA.

  • Doug Cutler

    Now its gets interesting.

    Nissan’s new battery is almost certainly solid state lithium. Many companies have been chasing this tech for some time incl. Toyota. Thin printed sheets of lithium and other materials are easier to cool therefore easier to pack into a smaller space. Toyota’s touted specs last year were 3 times energy density of current lithium at half cost per/kwh but who’s to say these numbers haven’t been slightly improved on.

    Plus, Elon Musk has said the new Tesla megafactory will be able to pivot towards any emerging battery tech using utilities of scale to drive down the cost even further. But its clear from Nissan’s announcement alone we will see affordable long range EVs before the end the of the decade.

    If you’re the Saudi’s looking at this you have to be thinking ‘sell the cheap oil while the selling’s good’. Plus, cheap gas will slow – but not eliminate – the uptake of EVs further extending the window of opportunity for cheap oil. Oil is down and may not be coming back. If anyone has long range oil investments I would be giving this a serious look – at least developing an exit strategy.

    • EEStorFanFibb

      I follow EV battery developments pretty closely and I haven’t seen any talk about Nissan’s new battery being solid state. Interesting idea though. Quantum Scape which appears to be entering a manufacturing stage is supposed to be working on a solid state battery and VW just announced that they purchased 5% of QS. I do agree the Saudis could be trying to do whatever it takes to keep market share and make hay while the sun shines before oil demand falls off a cliff. I predict that EVs are going to dominate new car sales in about a decade. I also think ICE sales will be banned in less than 2 decades.

      • US_Citizen71

        I agree other than the banning of ICE. There are some applications that due to the weight of electric motors and batteries and the power to weight ratio of such systems, electric motors will have a difficult time replacing ICE. These include such things as chainsaws, grass trimmers, commercial leaf blowers, small cultivators and backup/portable generators. For other small ICE applications such as push and ride on lawn mowers electric is no brainers as the wheels take the weight and run time is reasonably short with long periods of non-use allowing for easy recharge from a standard outlet.

      • Doug Cutler

        Of course, solid state lithium is just a speculation on my part. But its the only tech out there I’ve read about that’s anywhere near market ready and capable of delivering those numbers. And lots of people chasing it. Anything else like lithium-air, lithium-sulfur, aluminum-air still has obstacles to work out and more years or R&D. Black swans are always welcome though. Here’s a link showing Toyota’s interest in solid state including a pretty interesting graph of relative energy densities of different battery types:

        http://chargedevs.com/newswire/toyota-researchers-develop-all-solid-state-li-ion-batteries/

        Gas motorcycles are already banned in large parts of China where they sell 20Million EV scooters a year. Banning ICE in N. America in 2 decades would be nice but sounds a bit optimistic to me. Perhaps first in large urban centers of certain progressive cities.

        Also, these new batteries will liberate passenger vehicles only. Long-haul trucking will still need fossil fuel for the foreseeable future. A breakthrough in lithium-air, if it comes, might be able to impact that sector.

      • EEStorFanFibb

        sorry I didn’t mean all and every ICE will be banned. I was speaking about ICEs in light duty vehicles. I don’t know if chainsaws and long haul trucks could ever be ICE free but I see people are seriously studying the hybridization of class 8 trucks:

        “Hybrid outlook

        There is potential long-term merit in exploring heavy hybrids based on fuel-economy improvements alone. Simulation results are promising, but the case has yet to be made in real-world operations.

        It is likely that the ultimate value of heavy hybrid systems will lie with their potential as enablers for more advanced technology. For example, as mentioned earlier, such systems could enable new engine technology such as multifuel turbines.

        Heavy hybrids can also provide cost benefits by significantly increasing foundation brake life and ultimately reducing maintenance costs. Significant drivability enhancement can aid in driver retention and improve safety by reducing driver workload. Fleets, OEMs, and suppliers are eager to participate in this “green revolution,” but there are significant challenges that will take time to overcome. Development of economical, reliable energy storage (batteries) is foremost in this lineup.

        As with other initiatives, such as electronic engine controls and electronic stability controls, this journey will likely take 10 to 15 years. This is not a market to jump into lightly, but for those companies in it for the long haul, it’s a journey worth making.”

        http://articles.sae.org/11853/

        • Omega Z

          “ICE will be banned in ?x?”
          There is no need for that if EV’s advance enough.
          The market will eliminate certain options as it becomes uneconomical to manufacture them. Lack of sales.

          Produce an Economically priced EV with a 500 mile range, 15 minute charge(About the same as gassing up) with heaters & AC and people will by them in mass.

          Basically, Produce an EV that is equal to ICE in most every way, People will buy the 1 considered beneficial to them & society. Force something on them & they will resist & the cost to society will be far greater then any number placed on it by some bureaucrat.

          As in Fine, I can’t afford what you demand. I can no longer make it to work & have to sacrifice far to MUCH. Now, Provide my free housing, Food, Medical care, Etc, Etc… People can become very vindictive regardless the cost to themselves, and when enough do this, the system fails. I would add that much of society is already running out of tolerance. This wouldn’t be a good time to poke the bear.

          It’s possible all the technology that seems to be bubbling just beneath the surface right now is related to peoples frustrations. Frustration & needs feed innovation.

          • EEStorFanFibb

            Given how spineless politicians are, I don’t see governments banning ICEs in light passenger vehicles until they are all but taken out of the game by free market forces. By then, nobody will miss them since EVs (which are already competitive) will be superior in every way.

            I do think they will be banned from new car sales at some point even if it’s just a symbolic gesture because they create a lot of air pollution that has a harmful effect on human health.

  • http://renewable.50webs.com/ Christopher Calder

    What are the manufacturing costs of an automobile electric motor vs. a typical gasoline motor of the same size? I cannot find any information on that on the web. Does anyone know for certain if one is cheaper than the other? Please do not add battery costs or fuel costs in the equation. If you have a link, that would be helpful.

    • bachcole

      Let’s play another game. I am guessing that an electric motor, although not cheap, will be significantly less than a gasoline motor. I bought a Jasper motor for $5,500 roughly back in 2005.

      • http://renewable.50webs.com/ Christopher Calder

        Thanks, but I need a more definitive answer. What is a Jasper motor and what did you use it for? What is the HP?

        • bachcole

          It was a replacement for my Saturn 1998 SW2 engine. I don’t remember the exactly flavor of SW2, probably the cheaper one.

    • EEStorFanFibb

      I don’t have what you asked for but at the same production level it has to be way cheaper than an ICE. Plus it provides much better performance. Check out how compact and simple it and the single gear transmission is.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaV7V07tEMQ

      • http://renewable.50webs.com/ Christopher Calder

        Nice video and great looking car.

        Do automobile electric engines use rare earth metals? The reason I ask these questions is that I wonder if you had a hydrogen powered car, would it be cheaper to install a fuel cell and an electric motor, or burn the hydrogen in a new generation internal combustion engine, such as the EcoMotors International opposed-piston opposed-cylinder (OPOC) engine. That engine is adaptable to hydrogen and is supposed to be 15% more efficient and made with 50% fewer parts than standard gasoline engines. It is very light, compact, and saves weight. It has lots of torque as well, but so do electric motors. Fuel cells have a reputation for being difficult to maintain and are expensive. I thus wonder if a simple internal combustion engine would be cheaper if we had an unlimited amount of very low cost hydrogen fuel to work with.

        • Frechette

          Most EV’s use permanent magnet DC motors. These do indeed require rare earth metals.
          A cheaper option are 3 phase synchronous reluctance motors but these still have technical problems such as high acoustic noise. They do not however require expensive rare earth magnets.

          Check it out:

          http://www.ece.uah.edu/courses/material/EE410-Wms2/Electric%20motors.pdf

    • Daniel Maris

      I have always read that it is the battery that is the major factor in the cost differential between electric cars and petrol-driven or diesel cars.

      Electric motors are very simple – and therefore cheap to manufacture in comparison with an ICE – so if you can get the cost of batteries down, you will rapidly cut back the differential.

      • Daniel Maris

        I would add you don’t have to get the differential down to zero because maintenance and fuel costs are much lower for electric vehicles – so this can be costed into an overall package.

        • EEStorFanFibb

          Yup, total cost of ownership over 10+ years is important, not simply the sticker price. Today’s EVs already are cheaper in that regard because fuel and maintenance costs are much smaller. And did I mention performance (acceleration) is better 🙂

          • Frechette

            For some customers sticker price may be more important if they buy cars with cash. It’s a lot easier to come up with $30k for a car than $70k if living on moderate cash flow.

      • Frechette

        Only problem is the rare earth metals needed for the magnets in these motors. Most of the ore is mined in China and they have put government export controls on this strategic material.

        • EEStorFanFibb
          • Frechette

            LOL to you too.

            “Despite their name, rare earth elements (with the exception of the radioactive promethium) are relatively plentiful in Earth’s crust, with cerium being the 25th most abundant element at 68 parts per million (similar to copper). However, because of their geochemical properties, rare earth elements are typically dispersed and not often found concentrated as rare earth minerals in economically exploitable ore deposits…”
            The catch phrase is “economically exploitable ore deposits” making rare earths as rare as chicken teeth.
            Forget about rummaging through old mine tailings as that Forbes article suggests. Japanese are busily working on substitute materials because of a potential shortage of these metals. We may be going from an oil shortage to a rare earth shortage.
            Incidentally rare earths are also used in disc drives. That’s the reason the industry is using recovery plants for recycling these critical metals.

            • Obvious

              Metallurgically exploitable deposits are the real bottleneck in REE supplies.
              Until a cheap solution for silicate-rich REE mineral beneficiation is found, most rich-looking REE deposits are still uneconomic. Enormous amounts of very high grade REE run-of-mine material is still gangue (scrap), because only a few minerals are actually useable, and these minerals must be amenable to extraction from the bulk, which requires a distinct gradient in specific gravity, solubility, floatability, hardness, or grain size compared to the associated deleterious minerals. (Flotation is different than specific gravity in this context).

        • Daniel Maris

          I read that rare earths can be found all round the world. The only reason they are mined in China is that the Chinese don’t care about the environmental impact and can deliver them to the world market cheaply.

    • Kenneth Brunstein

      Good question. The cost of an electric motor is very cheap compaired to the cost of an ICE. Lets think about it for a min. An internal combustion motor has so many parts like pistons crankshaft, spark plugs, hoses, belts, chains, oil, and so on. An electric motor is copper wire, magnets, crankshaft, outer case. and if it has energy recapture a few other parts. It dose not need oil, belts or spark plugs. If you look at the cost of a KIA you can get one new for 15,000 or less because its mass produced it drives the price down. An electric car is just a electric motor and a battery no transmission or torqe con because the motor produces 1000s of pounds when you press the pedal the electric cars brakes are very low ware because the energy recapture dose the braking to recapture kenetic energy. Try to find the cost of a fork lift motor and it should not be to far off from that. People are using them to build their own electric cars for cheap less than 1000 bucks. I read a story about a guy buying a old forklift moter for 80 bucks and rebuilt it. All you have to do is clean the copper and redo the leads. it scares machanics because these motors last 1,000,000 miles. Look it up its fun and when you find out how easy it is you will ask yourself why are we not driving electric cars they are faster cheaper and easy to fix. The problem is the cost of the battery. It 70% of the cost. This problem will be solved sooner than we think.

      • http://renewable.50webs.com/ Christopher Calder

        Thanks

        A million mile lifespan sounds ice. We may be on the verge of limitless low cost hydrogen gas produced locally everywhere. Will fuel cell costs come down and reliability go up soon? I like hydrogen gas better than batteries. Maybe a super-capacitor would recharge faster, but I find it hard to imagine. We need to get technology developed so that a Camry sized fuel cell powered car can be purchased for $21,000, not $55,000.

        • EEStorFanFibb

          Hydrogen is a complete joke for a lot of reasons I won’t get into here. but if you want a cheap/reliable vehicle it can’t ever have a fuel cell in it. Batteries will continue to improve/get cheaper and consequently the sticker price of EVs will drop. Meanwhile we can enjoy the lower total cost of ownership and better performance that EVs provide today.

          • http://renewable.50webs.com/ Christopher Calder

            Just between you and me, I agree with most of what you say. My secret dream is a downsized Solar Hydrogen Trends reactor, about the size of a carton of cigarettes, providing on demand hydrogen gas fuel to burn in an EcoMotors International opposed-piston opposed-cylinder (OPOC) engine that has been modified to run on hydrogen. The company says it can run on about anything but wood chips. That dream vehicle would use a low cost compact engine with 50% fewer parts than a standard gasoline engine, a low cost LENR hydrogen reactor, a very small hydrogen tank that would only have to store a few miles worth of hydrogen gas, a 5 gallon water fuel tank, and a decent but not overly large and expensive battery to get the system up and running. No need for regenerative breaking in this system. With no electric motor you would still need a CVT transmission, but overall it could possibly be a simple and low cost automobile design.

            All I have ever heard about fuel cells is problems. I remember when we used them in our early space flights and all you would ever hear about them is that they were continually breaking down. They seem intolerant to dust, which is not a good attribute for a car whizzing down the highway at 70 MPH.

            • Frechette

              Go to and check out:
              http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/12/20141205-mirai.html
              It’s not your grandfather’s fuel cell anymore

              • http://renewable.50webs.com/ Christopher Calder

                Looks interesting, but complicated, expensive, and potentially fragile. Regardless, I hope it works and can be made low cost and reliable. Someone posted the following below the video.

                “Where battery electric infrastructure away from home does not operate under the rather peculiar Tesla notion, of being nominally paid for upfront in the cost of the car, which considering that last quarter Tesla made a loss of $9,600 for every car it made even after receiving masses of ZEV money, is of dubious long term viability, in the absence of subsidy it costs at least as much as hydrogen per mile.”

                I did a quick web search, but could not find confirmation for this post.

              • EEStorFanFibb

                Lux Research: Fuel Cell Vehicles Most Costly To Fuel, EVs & PHEVs Cheapest

                http://insideevs.com/lux-research-fuel-cell-vehicles-costly-fuel-evs-phevs-cheapest/

              • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

                …Toyota releases the “Mirai” – hydrogen fuel cell car: on
                Bloomberg. http://www.bloomberg.com/ now (Dec. 18)
                The sale of electric and hybrid cars seems to be solid.
                In mercatu veritas.

          • Frechette

            You should share your wisdom with Toyota engineers and technical staff. You might even get to present your profound knowledge to their CEO just as the Mira is going into production in Japan now.

            http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/12/20141205-mirai.html

        • Kenneth Brunstein

          look up black light power they have a device that ive been researching and cant find any flaws except when Mills starts to explain the biproduct. The demostration and the validation would suggest that he is going to change the world. Very quick to not years but months. Basicly he was spending so much time on reseach hopefuls started to discredit him. He claims to have found a lower state of hydrogen which he calls hydrinos. He lost a lot of credit because scientist say its imposible. He had a device that cell that would make forty watts from water. than he started experiments with the plasma, collecting electrons from the plasma emissions. He later found that most of the energy was in the form of light emissions from the plasma. 10,000 to 75,000 times the light coming from the sun. the last 60 years solar R&D has cost a trillion dollars and because of that we have CPV concentrated photo voltaic technology that can absorb 1000 times sun. stack 50 of them together use mirrors to direct the light and you can get a device that makes 10mw thats enough to power 10,000 homes in a space that is a square meter. it uses two fuels one of the fuels is kind of like rossi’s its a powder made up of metals and alkaline. the secound fuel is water vapor that mixes with the solid fuel and explodes to make a very bright plasma that converts directly to electricity fro the CPV. His test market is Ontario Canada and they just shut down their last power plant that runs off of coal. The kicker the engineering firms that he has hired are making one the is in the 100-200 kilowatt range that is sqare inches that will fit in a car and in houses. Also he is working with the CPV companies to make a cells that will absorbe the other spectrums in the IR range. The cells today are designed around the light the sun puts out so you have to conform. right now they are 40% efficent that will change soon. I am not good at typing and my spelling is bad so forgive the mistakes.

          • http://renewable.50webs.com/ Christopher Calder

            I hope it works. That would solve the electric car problem with ease. Could you also somehow make a jet engine that runs on electricity? I can’t imagine but maybe some engineer can.

          • Gerard McEk

            The problem with BLP is that although it seems to be difficult to find any flaw in his theories, he seems to need an awful long time to prove that it really works and that he can make more energy than he uses (in the hours time frame, not in the mirco second time frame). He has spend more than 20 M$ and was still not able to prove this.
            Beside this, when Stoyan Sarg’s theory is right, and I like that theory, than Mills work is totally useless. Stoyan has a much better description of how matter looks like than the standard Bohr model. It also explaines better all kind of inconsistensies we have with the Bohr model.
            Nevertheless I hope Mills can prove his theories soon.

            • Kenneth Brunstein

              Are talking about the CIHT cell or the suncell? I am talking about the suncell. He has proven the the light coming from the plasma is 10,000-75,000 times that of the sun, and the energy used to make the plasma is much lower than the energy going into it. The hydrino theory is a side note. If he never said anything about it and people asked him what type of waste is coming from the device he could get away with saying nothing because nobody would be looking for a hydrino.

      • Obvious

        Once upon a time, I rebuilt automatic transmissions. The rule of thumb was that an auto transmission cost one month of the driver’s salary, the type of car/truck hosting the transmission being based loosely on their annual salary…

  • jakobinec

    Cmon guys the range for this electric cars with new batteries is nothing special… 😉

    http://www.sloveniatimes.com/slovenian-breaks-world-record-with-electric-car

    • Gerard McEk

      You wuld want to know the size and capacity of the batteries. What Nissan suggests is that they nade a battery smaller in size than the existing Prius one, but with 3 times the capacity and that s a huge step!

      • Frechette

        It is a huge step. One hundred years ago the range of the electric car was about 100 miles using Lead Acid batteries. We’ve come a long way with the present Leaf which I understand has a range of 80 miles during the summer. Somewhere around 60 during a New England winter.

  • timycelyn

    One model cycle? I guess that’s a car industry term where it may be taken to typically mean X years. I’d like to know what ‘X’ is, but this clearly shows that the long road the auto industry has been on towards the electric car is likely to finally lead to truly viable technology in perhaps the medium term.

    Our second (town/shopper) car is just renewed. Will I be able t orealistically contemplate a full electric one for it’s replacment – at cost I can stomach – in perhaps 8 years time??

    • Gerard McEk

      What I read it is only 2 years away from now and if that is true Elon Musk should get nervous.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Apparently a model cycle is not a unit of time. It seems to be some development engineering abstraction.

      Nissan Motor Corp. wants its next-generation Leaf electric vehicle to get more mainstream styling and a new battery that greatly increases its range. And Infiniti’s delayed electric car will debut with the improved battery by early 2017.

      http://www.autonews.com/article/20140507/OEM05/140509845/nissans-next-evs:-more-mainstream-better-battery

    • Daniel Maris

      I think the model cycle has been getting longer hasn’t it over time as vehicles become more complex and more costly to develop. Probably 7 years would be a good guess now I would say. It’s not an easy thing to pin down because some models get substantially modified, some get borrowed from other models and some models share the same name though they may be quite different.