Rossi: 1 MW Plant Reactors Occupy 1/2 Cubic Meter in Volume

Andrea Rossi was asked today on the Journal of Nuclear Physics about the largest and smallest E-Cat working reactors that he has made.

He responded:

I can say this: the total volume of the reactors of the 1 MW plant is half cubic meter ( 500 liters of volume). All the rest is heat exchangers.
Is much bigger the control system, entirely designed by our engineers ( 111 computers integrated). I think our team ( electronic engineers, physicists, blue collars, white collars has made a masterpiece.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Rossi has said previously that this plant is built inside a shipping container, so it sounds like almost all the space inside the container is taken up by the heat exchange system. The number of computers required to manage the plant indicates a great deal of complex engineering is needed to keep these reactions under control, and Rossi says they are still resolving problems with this plant.

So while Rossi has described the plant a ‘magnificence’, and a ‘masterpiece’, we’re still pretty much in the dark regarding the state of progress with it. If Rossi and IH can pull off this task and eventually present a working LENR plant to the world, it will be a very important technological and commercial achievement. However, it may well be that we’ll have to wait quite a while (a year or more) before we find out for sure if the mission has been accomplished.

  • Omega Z

    “5 liters is a lot of beer!”
    Well, 5 liters is a good start. 🙂 That’s for 1 person right?

    Note the LT 1Mw E-cats have been redesigned & now use the cat/mouse. Basically, we don’t have a clue what they look like now.

  • US_Citizen71

    I’ve been thinking, I wonder if the other two reactors Rossi provided were used for testing to produce reports that were private. This is pure speculation I have no proof of them being used.

    If I was Elforsk I would have wanted a whole lot more for my money the second time through than what I see in the report. Rossi said they had parts in triplicate, maybe there was three tests. One with stable power to produce a report easier to release to the public. One where the self sustain mode was used and maybe left to run until it ran out of fuel. The meters I’m sure have the ability to record the intermittent power of the self sustain mode and the calculations could be done on a continuous basis for the heating. A test showing just how long the reactor fuel lasts would be good for both IH and Elforsk. The report would require the reader to have a bit more trust in the process and the team than you would get out of the general public but could have been done. That leaves the third either it was the true spare or it may have been used to show max power to the point of meltdown of the core another test report that IH and Elforsk would love to have in their pocket. The group of scientists could have easily overseen all three in the same room. Omission is not lying, I’m not sure it was ever directly stated that the spares were not used, just not used for this report. Those hypothetical reports could be making their way around in private and might explain some of the interest and actions of assorted entities. Just a what if to think about.

  • LuFong

    Back online now.

  • US_Citizen71

    These aren’t your daddy’s ECats. LOL

    They seem to have been made larger, which would give more surface area for heat exchanging, that could only be a good thing. You can only transfer so much heat per square measure of area.

    • Omega Z

      That was my thinking… Simalir to the steel Hot cat..

  • mytakeis

    wow, like an intel agency monitoring one small spy, and falling on its cumbersome face monitoring 100 (everything else). KISS in action.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    I was just thinking about how much power it takes to run a train. Maybe we can get a rough idea of
    how many E-Cats/Hot-Cats it would take to power a train (not necessarily an electric train) using this table. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/RadmilaIlyayeva.shtml

    • Omega Z

      Most of your trains have diesel generators that power electric drive wheels. As there are many variations, if you had a specific model in mind, it is Very likely the the Kilowatts ratings are already available on the Net.

  • TomR

    Yes!

  • artefact

    Du könntest direkt zu http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=864#comments gehen und die posts dort lesen bis es wieder funktioniert…

  • Jonnyb

    Yeh

  • Ophelia Rump

    No peeking, but I will share this, the crazy old lady persona is just for fun!

    • Omega Z

      Where is Max?
      The crazy old lady killed him I bet,

  • C. Kirk

    Consider the soft evidence, which is very strong as to the E-Cat being real with a COP over 3 ….. I suggest you start with reading “why I believe in the E-Cat” at the top of the page….. and tell me what you think of the legacy of Prof. Sergio Focardi….. was he duped by Rossi? Without a doubt Industrial Heat purchased the rights to something Very Potent….. How soon it can be commercialilzed is the only question……. Well sure , we can all dream…. I hope that Industrial Heat is able to commercialize the 1MW plant in 2015, as I hope Blacklight power is able to commercialize their SunCell ….. as to the hard evidence…there is plenty in support of the E-Cat In any case where there are “experts” on both sides of a controversial issue, you can accept the majority consensus opinion or not….. in other words you pick your experts and I’ll pick mine (no, your not one of mine when it comes to the E-Cat) ….this of course also applies to AGW (global warming) and many controversial issues…..

  • Fortyniner

    The COP=3 was a ‘safe’ operating level that probably reduced the danger of a meltdown. This design of reactor is probably capable of higher COPs when the ‘self sustaining’ mode (not used in the test) is included in the operating cycle. Even at say COP=10, the need for such heavy duty electrical input would be an encumbrance though, and Rossi has said that they are trying to develop a gas-fired version (although this will still need electrical input for activation and control).

    • Albert D. Kallal

      Does anyone know if IH’s new plant is based on h-cats, or regular cats?
      Regards,
      Albert k

    • Sophareth Camsonne

      Both.

  • Fortyniner

    “All the rest is heat exchangers.” So Rossi has stuck with his basic design – banks of separate reactors, each enclosed by its own heat exchanger, mounted in racks. This design will become increasingly difficult to scale to industrial outputs of 10, 50, 200 MW because of the complexity and bulk of the necessary plumbing and wiring. This is a little disappointing – I had hoped that he would be at the multiple-core stage by now.

    It is the equivalent of connecting your single cylinder Otto cycle engines to a common shaft, rather than developing a multi-cylinder engine that shares intake, ignition, exhaust and cooling systems. Until Rossi makes the jump to multiple reactors sharing a common thermal store, this is unfortunately a dead-end design.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      I had also hoped for an integrated design. However, this would likely be much more difficult to control. Another reason why Rossi might have kept the old concept is that the data from 100 largely independent reactors could be used as an argument in the certification process for the home units.

      • Daniel Maris

        We have yet to see a convincing demonstration of surplus power.

        If Rossi is genuine, what he says makes perfect sense. Create a pilot installation that works dependably.

        Doesn’t really matter if it’s not very efficient. As long as there is surplus and dependable power, that is all that matters.

        • Warthog

          Really. I see three reports, all by legitimate scientists, saying that there IS “surplus power”. I also see a lot of speculation about things that “might have happened” to de-legitimize those reports. In those areas in which I am sufficiently expert to make a judgment, I have yet to see even one of those speculations be correct.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      I can’t really say they are “stuck” with non scalable design.

      Cleary the LENR designs will trend towards a rack in which you can pull out and plug in e-cat modules no different then like a computer server room. In fact pictures of the commercial heater cores that Rossi has quite much suggest that the designs are already based around plug in, and plug out modules.

      And this exactly how larger data centers and cloud computing systems work. They don’t try to build a larger and larger computer, but in fact using EXISTING CPU technology, and EXISTING memory chips. You then just start stacking these things like Lego blocks to increase power.

      The e-cat approach looks much the same here. Need more power, just start plugging in more modules. If you think the refinement of such designs will require a plumber and someone to add hoses is certainly not going to be the result of this technology.

      Even now, each of those modules has that processor and control system. Thus having 5, 100, or 1000 modules is NOT more difficult to build. Once the control systems are tweaked and work with 10, then you have a system that works with 1000 modules.

      Be it joining several fire trucks together with STANDARD hose couplings to increasing water pumping ability, or increasing cloud computing CPU power by adding more CPU chips, or increasing cloud computing storage by plugging in more disk drives into the rack? The future road here is clear.

      We see this now in commercial buildings for heating. OFTEN contractors will use 3-6 SMALLER furnaces in place of one big huge honker furnace. The reasons are many, but one is the several smaller furnaces are not only LOWER cost (and fit in the contractors van), but failure of once furnace causes little inconvenience. And you can turn off 5 furnaces and save energy, and run the ONE furnace at maximum output which also tends towards higher efficiency rate.

      The fact that they have to connect together a whole bunch of modules is THE MOST FANTASTIC FEATURE of LENR. If it were not for this “forced” approach, then LENR would not hold such great hope for the future.

      As they refine this, there is little doubt that each e-cat module will NOT require hand wiring and hand plumbing.

      IH might struggling with the plant, but the problems will be solved by industry.

      So no I certainly do NOT want larger cores, and MUCH prefer scalable designs based on small easy to build modules. In fact smaller cores means you will easy be able to place a “small” heater in your outhouse during the winter months. 😉

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada
      [email protected]

      • Warthog

        I was discussing nuke ships with a fellow who had just retired from the Navy shipyard at Bremerton, and he imparted something of which I was unaware….the nuclear carrier “Enterprise” had not one, not two, but EIGHT separate reactors. He mentioned that newer ships had fewer….but certainly still “modular”, and “more than one”.

        • Albert D. Kallal

          Makes a lot of sense. The smaller the reactor, the better. A few hockey size pucks placed in your car could keep it warm all night!

    • Warthog

      Not. It is apparent from the design of the “Hot-Cat” that it is intended to be a single module in an array of similar modules mounted transversely across a single flowing stream of heat-exchange fluid (of whatever type). This is the only scenario that fits the “cooling fins” of that reactor. And yes, it “does” make sense for each such module to have its own dedicated control circuit.

    • Omega Z

      At 4/5 liters per, it sounds like a Lt steel hot cat with flanges.

  • Jimr

    This half a cubic meter is meaningless, it’s like saying all the nuclear pellets in the rods of a 2 GW nuclear power plant will only take up 2 cubic meters.

    • Daniel Maris

      Well that has some meaning doesn’t it?

  • Fortyniner

    It is possible that Rossi just means 110 local PLCs (100 duty reactors, 10 standby) controlled by a remote SCADA. Of course, if each individual reactor needs to be mapped to a matched PLC, that could complicate the issue.

  • Jonnyb

    This is great news, I wonder if the 111 computers are actually micro processors or PLC’s or a combination of the both.

    • Oceans2014

      great question here to follow up with.

      • Jonnyb

        Also don’t forget PACs, and this could tie in with N.I. past links.

    • http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/ barty

      I guess it’s something “simple” like a ATMEL ATTiny25 MCU. Read sensor values > 50 times per second and control the regarding heating elements and voltage regulators should be manageable for such a MCU.
      Maybe also sending ~10 times per second concluded information from the regarded reactor to an embedded computer in the power range of a raspberry pi which collects the data and send general control commands to the 110 MCUs.

      • Jonnyb

        I’m hoping it’s a bit more advanced than a Raspberry Pi, not that they are bad, however I would imagine this to be very complex. Mimic Panels using Solaris would have been the thing 10 years ago, not sure what they would use now, something stable.

  • bachcole

    It seems a tad depressing to me. 1/2 cubic meter is 500,000 cubic centimeters, divided by 100 (the supposed number of individual E-Cats) equals 5,000 cubic centimeters per individual E-Cat. The cube root of 5,000 equals 17.099. So each individual chamber is the equivalent of 17.099 centimeters on a side, which we all know is way too big. Consequently, the IMW system has 100 individual little tiny E-Cats.

    Worse is the necessity of using 100 computers to control everything, even if each of those “computers” are a single chip or a single chip with some memory.

    What happened to a much larger vessel with much more power?

    It will be great if works, but the plumbing and control is hurting our cause.

    The good news is that each E-Cat is 10,000 watts, just perfect for my house.

    • Guru

      These 100 computers are ARM, so no catastrophic overheads

    • Ophelia Rump

      Shhhhh, too much angst. The greatest power source known to man small and dirt cheep.
      Version 1.0
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lHh0DEIu2s

      • Fortyniner

        Indeed. This is the Otto engine – the Aston Martin AM11 is still a few years away.

        • georgehants

          Morning Peter, how fast would you be able to cruise down the canals with a 1MW E-cat powered steam engine driving your longboat?

          • Fortyniner

            Morning George. I hate to think – it tends to wash away small canalside buildings at 4 mph! A new generation of steam narrowboats would be rather fun though – silent except for the gentle chugging of exhaust steam. I think about half a dozen of Rossi’s 10kW reactors would do the job nicely.

            • georgehants

              It would sure be worth seeing the faces of the locals if your were breezing along at forty knots though.

              • Fortyniner

                Maybe I could get some hydroplanes welded on. Could be a bit rough on lock gates if you don’t see them in time though!

                • Omega Z

                  Some Friend George is. Sounds as if he’s working to get you in trouble.

                  However, Lets keep it at about 25 knots & I’ll bring the ski’s. You bring the checkbook to cover the fines. 🙂

                  Question. Does UK’s health system cover a dumb yank on ski’s that didn’t notice the lock gates?

            • Ophelia Rump

              I recommend a combination hover vtol takeoff combined with a hydrofoil at crusing speed mounted on a traditional gondola chassis. You could use the thrusters for rapid braking at gates. The gondolier would require a stanchion of some kind.

              • US_Citizen71

                That keeps it simple just a water pump to feed in water from the canal (a float will need to stay on the surface to keep feeding the reaction mass) at the beginning and some nozzles to turn the steam into thrust. The heat, humidity and sound from the output insure that you have a very private day on the water. Brillant! ; )

                • Ophelia Rump

                  A heat engine like the old toy boats, brilliant!

    • pelgrim108

      5000 cubic cm could be 10 cm * 10 cm * 50 cm wich is about wright if you count in some insulation around the cilinder and the protected wires connected to the reactor

    • mcloki

      This is an early prototype and as such will be massively over engineered. First you build a massive lumbering tractor, then you refine it into a Lamborghini. Just get it to work consistently, then replicate it. then you can miniaturize it.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      17 cm? That is less then 7 inches long. Quite near PERFECT for shipping via FedEx to you home. Seems darn near perfect, as I would not want a computer or reactor core that can’t be easy shipped to your door.

      Not sure what the h-cat final size will be, but it looked smaller then the typical English cucumber you purchase at the grocery store.
      What was the problem here?

      Regards,
      Albert k.

      • pelgrim108

        The name “h-cat” is already in use for making water from HHO gas with a catalytic converter.
        Hot-Cat or ht-cat is the most used term.

        • Albert D. Kallal

          Thanks, I will use hot-cat in the future. While the name Mustang can mean a horse or a car, if I use the term in a car forum, you can be 99% sure I am talking about the car.

          And given my context, then anyone of reason can conclude I was talking about hot-cat.

          However, since other hydrogen devices are noted and discussed here, then I shall adopt the term hot-cat.

          Appreciate the heads up.

          Regards,
          Albert k

    • Omega Z

      Roger
      I know your where abouts & if a 10Kw E-cat is the perfect size for your house, I can only assume it’s because your wife has you in the Dog House. Sorry to hear that.

      Likely she considers herself an E-cat Widow. She’ll forgive you once they are available. In the mean time, May I suggest a single Red Rose & a Box of Chocolates. Works most if the time. Just to be sure, make it 2 boxes of Chocolate.

      I think the revised LT E-cat is similar to the flanged Hot-cat. Mouse/Cat configuration. Fits the measurements much better.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ian.walker.7140 Ian Walker

    Hi all

    If it produces 1 MW that is way beyond what any other generating system of those dimesions can achieve.

    One of them could pull a train.

    Kind Regards walker

    • Fortyniner

      A very small train – maybe a shunter and some light stock! Main line locomotives have power outputs in the 2-8 MW range.

      • Ophelia Rump

        A reactor the size of a refrigerator. Fuel far smaller than diesel.

        • Fortyniner

          True, but in addition to the reactor/boiler, you would also need steam pipes, an engine or engines, mechanical transmission, a condenser with fans, a water tank and various other ancillaries. However, weight would not be a problem in a railway loco, or a large ship.

          • Ophelia Rump

            And a whistle, don’t forget the whistle! Toooot TOOT!

            • Fortyniner

              Agreed. A big, polished brass whistle would be absolutely essential.

    • Arnaud

      You are talking about 1MW mechanical power, here we are talking about 1MW thermal power. With a conversion efficiency of 25%, you can expect 250kW. The power of a sport car which has en efficiency around 25%.