What is Going on Behind Closed Doors Regarding Cold Fusion? (Omega Z)

I would imagine there is much going on behind closed doors.

The greatest folly I can imagine would be for people here at ECW to think that many high powered entities are not aware of LENR, E-cat(IH/Rossi), Brillouin(Godes) etc., etc. . . .

NASA, DOD, DOE, NRL, EPRI, ENEA. How many letters of the alphabet do I need to point out of those who have been linked to LENR. Exxon, Shell, Mitsubishi, Toyota, Siemens, GE by association of the White house & Stephen Chu-former US energy secretary and National Instruments are but a few of the corporations with LENR history and connections. GE’s CEO was one of Obama’s economic advisers.

In the past (archives) we have evidence that some politicians in the U.S.(both parties) are not just aware, but have proposed funding LENR Research to no avail. We’ve had people on ECW E-mail their representatives who received limited responses that, Yes They are aware & following the developments but nothing to disclose other then that.

Al Gore mentioned it in passing. Godes in conversation with Stephen Chu. Do you think they were discussing Obama’s golf scores. I think I saw where Elon Musk follows Robert Godes on Twitter. And do you think Bill Gates was blindsided by discussions of Cold Fusion? The preponderance of evidence is that MANY entities are well aware of what is going on.

So WHY? Why do they not discuss this in public?

It is quite simple. The Pons and Fleischmann fiasco. None want to be ridiculed or belittled for believing in fantasy. The most you will get out of them is, It’s an interesting phenomenon. At worst, hasn’t that been debunked as junk Science.

So, when will they speak out and say the things you want to hear. When Rossi or someone else have a pilot plant that is as Rossi says, consolidated and with irrefutable evidence it is real and it can be economically harnessed for productive use. Until then, it’s an interesting phenomenon at best and IMO find it highly improbable that we will see much disclosure before then.

As to suppression, this fear of ridicule allows a few people to suppress this technology. Most of this comes from the big physics projects such as ITER. And “note” that there are those among there ranks who are not against LENR or it’s research, but are victims of this same fear. Even positive impressions of LENR are kept to themselves. To speak out could cost them their careers.

  • bitplayer

    No need for conspiracy. They don’t announce because:

    1 – they don’t want to be called poor managers, because it’s still not a sure thing
    2 – they want to hide their progress, because they don’t want more competition
    3 – they don’t want to trash their existing investments in alternative energy, which will be be steeply discounted if not simply a waste of money as soon as LENR is proven to become commercially viable.

    The massive multi-agent system looks like it has central intelligence, but it’s like an ant colony. The queen doesn’t direct what’s going on. She just churns out different types of ants in different quantities.

    The idea that “they” are trying to figure out how to tax it or that “they” are going to suppress it is scary fairy tale thinking. There is no feasible model of a network of cause and effect in which those things could be real. If you believe these is such a model, then please spell out at least some of its general features. Otherwise, “boo!” to you too.

    • Omega Z

      “No need for conspiracy.”
      Correct, Those who try to suppress CF/LENR are on public record so it is no conspiracy. But they are trying to stop it.
      Their numbers are actually few, however, they are well connected to the policy makers of most nations. Their words carry a lot of weight.

      Much of this comes from the physicists involved it the bigger physics projects such as ITER, But I quickly point out, it is but a few of them. If LENR comes forward, many of these projects will likely see major budget cuts.

      As to Physicists, note that there are many who are themselves involved with LENR to some degree. Several have worked directly with Rossi & others openly support his efforts.

      “they are trying to figure out how to tax it”
      A few may think along these lines, but the smart politicians will see economic expansion that puts people to work, thus less tax expenditures required & at the same time, increased tax revenues from the newly employed. They love extra money to spend.
      The wealthy investor would also like it. Less pressure to tax them to death & more ROI on all the new investments.

  • Omega Z

    ->”Reproducible” means reproducible every time
    ->reproducible, on-demand

    If this is the premise of Science, then we have a problem.
    Early on, the Wright brothers failed more then succeeded.
    A similar story for resistors & in fact, most everything never met you criteria in the beginning. What happened to trial & error.

    It’s a good thing that common sense prevailed long ago or we would still be living in caves, because I’m quite sure the making of fire was never reproducible, on-demand, every time & would have been deserted as junk science.

    • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

      what is interesting is that this unrealistic reproducibility fallacy is used by people with high education…
      anyone educated should know that early technology is hard to replicate, but as Schwinger said that 2 good replication are an evidence…

      the inverted Popper argument of those usin failures as evidence is of the same pathetic vein.

      only groupthink and illiteracy can explain that.
      illiteracy by common people, who never understood how great inventions were made are acceptable, but when a PhD claim that it is psychiatry, no less.

  • Omega Z

    Cuthbert
    If Scientists were to just blindly except cold fusion, that would be just as bad as what they do today. Blindly attack it as junk science.

    Neither makes for good science.
    To up & say that there is no theory to explain it, thus I shall not look is in itself junk science. I would call it Failed Science.
    I would add that some are very hypocritical as they will in turn analyze & study many other things that don’t fit into an excepted theory.

    To question & have some skepticism is perfectly acceptable & is in fact in line with science. But some of the vicious attacks are totally unacceptable & makes me question the credentials of these people. It is very unscientific. Especially when they refuse to even look. And they also need to accept that experiment trumps theory. Always…

  • LCD

    They will just tax something else.

    Anyways some math.

    On average per year I spend 3600 in utilities and roughly 5400 on gasoline.

    So if an electricity generating ecat for house and home existed today I would save a max of 9000/year. That’s good but not stellar.

    But I think what most people fail to do is calculate all the hidden costs.

    For example, air travel would be seriously reduced. Just look at the falling price of oil and its effect on airlines.

    All the costs associated with everyone else who provide and produce things that you buy would also see savings which they would either pass to you (most likely, thanks to the free market economy) or they would keep and spend on other stuff, stimulating the economy and creating more jobs.

    So maybe instead of 9000/year it’s 16000/year.

    There are a lot of people who live on 28000/year.

    • Omega Z

      8-() WOW!! You need to downsize son. About $2700 here.
      Your gonna need at least 6 10Kw E-cats. Are you aware that the high performance Tesla uses a 285Kwh battery.

      But I agree, most of the benefits will come from across the board Given that 2/3rds of all energy is used by business of which the consumer pays in the price of products & services.

      This benefit will also be stretched over several decades as we transition to this technology. It wont happen all at once & most will not even recognize the benefits.

      • LCD

        Where do you live? We live in the bay area, ca. That’s about average if not below. Still ridiculous but average.

  • Omega Z

    “too many people” have never even heard of P&F let alone Rossi & doesn’t even show as a statistical anomaly on the public radar. That is starting to change, but most people wont pay much attention. They will only ask 1 thing. Will my utilities be cheaper & move on.

    A higher level of Government agencies & Corporations are/will have a much higher awareness. If for no other reason then it’s part of their job to be aware of it.

    As to the Test arrangement you propose, It would have stirred up far more fuss then the 1 that was done. Any regular here at ECW can attest to that. There would be questions as to reactor differences. Was the exact same internal wiring used. The wall densities, and on an on. Given that even the reactor is of IP concern, such answers would not be given.

    We presently have some “Demanding the Raw Data”. Good luck with that. Don’t know who they think they are but, that data is only available for a select few. People need to discern the difference between an Industrial market oriented endeavor & pure science.

    The E-cat is an Industrial oriented endeavor. If it works as advertized, it will soon come to market. If it were purely scientific, it would be another $10 billion & 10 years away from even being accepted as a phenomena. Maybe?

  • georgehants

    Cuthbert, thank you for your reply, I would be very interested in you scientific assessment of this report.
    http://www.cufos.org/cometa.html, thank you for your reply

  • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

    your criteria are not the one of science. you parrot cargo cult scientific method.

    This is complex science, and reproduction is not more easy than transistors were.

    morereover it is wrong and today there are protocols that work on demand.

    even F&P protocol now is above 50ù success by ENEA after understanding the impact of crystallography.

    the basic of your self confidence is:

    – ignore the landscape of proven evidences, the replications, the cross checks

    – ignore the absence of any surviving factual critics on the calorimetry

    – use of inverted logic in scientific method, the cargo cult skeptciism.

    – use of theory to prevent people to look further and see the previous errors.

    as says gerrit it is a scheme.

    i imagine you are sincere, but I am also sure that your intelligence is high enough to understand the propblems.

    the question is only that realizing you have been fooled by people you trust is painful, especially if you cannot benefot from that knowledge and you will be punished by clone of yourself

    This mechanism is well explained by a co-writer of Jean Tirole, Roland Benabou, in the Groupthink paper, the model of Mutual Assured Delusion.

    http://www.princeton.edu/~rbenabou/papers/Groupthink%20IOM%202012_07_02%20BW.pdf

    take the good pill: sorry you are color blind, like most of people.

  • Gerrit

    I have heard the same rhetoric from pseudo skeptics too many times. Go and believe what you want to believe. You won’t make any friends here. Bye.

  • Gerrit

    Where did you get the belief that there are no reproducible experiments ? Toyota reproduced Mitsubishi’s experiment. Kitamura reproduced Arata’s experiment. Multiple labs have reproduced Fleischman-Pons’ experiment.
    NASA reproduced experiments, ENEA reproduced experiments, should I go on ?

    So where did you get the belief that there are no reproducible experiments ?

    Are you unaware of these or dismissing evidence that doesn’t fit your beliefs?

  • Ophelia Rump

    It will not be suppressed, if it were going to be suppressed, it would also be ignored by these people. The question is, will you buy your energy from a meter or own the device which generates the energy.

    I would like to think that these people will safeguard and shepherd the technology into your reach in the near future. But I might be mistaken.

    • Fortyniner

      It won’t be suppressed, only delayed while arrangements are made for its controlled introduction. The energy producers need a replacement for increasingly expensive fossil fuels and for dangerous and increasingly unacceptable nuclear power, and CF seems to be ‘it’.

      However IMHO the probability that ‘domestic’ units will become available within the lifetime of anyone reading this is approximately zero. We are likely to see the first moves to capture and contain the technology quite soon after the introductory phase that seems to be under way. Fear will be the tool used, but such is the mass of the ship of denial and ridicule that has been built since P&F, it could a while to turn it around to the point where the danger card can be played.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Since Tesla and J.P. Morgan.

      • NT

        I plan to order a 3-D printer and the e-cat plans off the internet someday soon?
        All kidding aside you may be right Fortyniner if the PTB end up in charge and control of the technology…

      • timycelyn

        Hi Peter!

        Rising to the bait, I have to qualify that.

        IF domestic devices become widely available in China, and no doubt India, and then perhaps Chinese import to a lot of derveloping word countries – where the big attratction is the bypassing of non-existent energy infrastructure – then in time they will appear in our countries as well.

        I agree TPTB will attempt to behave in the ways you have described when we have discussed this aspect. The operative word is attempt.

        In the short term, I am sure you are correct, anyone smuggling a ‘New Sun’ device in from Hong Kong or somewhere will risk severe penalties, and the news will be knee deep in scare stories. But 5 or 10 years later, when ten, twenty, fifty developing world countries alllow them by the millions, when there are news stories all over in our countires on the theme of ‘Are we being Conned?’

        I reckon there will be a complex equation in the North Atlantic bordering nations between degree of exposure, adoption, and acceptance of this technology in other countries and the differential cost of energy from Big Power compared to Chinese domestic cats.

        +10% cost buying from big power, dometic cat delayed almost indefinitely in the Atlantic nations.
        +100% cost, domestic cat delayed 15 years
        +500% cost, floodgates will start cracking and cats will be bootlegging all over within 3 years.

        No matter how TPTB try scare stories, these won’t work in the medium to long term. We live in an information age and our population will see soon enough safe, widespread use in developing world countries. Politicians cannot keep on protecting Big Power in this way in the face of a raging public and being voted out of office. The moment will come when resistance in ‘The West’ to widespread non-centralised use of this technology wil burst, like a soap bubble….

        • Fortyniner

          That all depends on a big ‘IF’, Tim. Energy independence would be liberating anywhere, whether it is China, Russia, India – or in Europe or the US. No government of any colour will want to see the loss of control and tax revenues that ‘domestic’ CF would bring, and it is quite easy to imagine that moves to capture/control it will take place worldwide, probably co-ordinated by lobbyists working for the IP owners themselves.

          Not only that, but it would make sense for the owners of the IP to retain complete control of the technology – something that could only be assured by limiting its use to ‘secure’ installations, possibly operated only by their own staff.

          Any scare stories used by TPTB only have to stand up long enough to get the desired legislation in place. Once CF is classified as a nuclear process, with state power used to enforce a monopoly, then it becomes a fait accompli. An eventual reduction of say 50% in power bills, and a visibly rising economy driven by the stimulus of cheap heat, will be enough to ensure that the new status quo remains in place for quite a long time.

          • timycelyn

            Peter, it’s all about the ‘IF’. It’s perhaps too easy to project the expediencies and needs of the Western establishment onto the huge booming countires of India and China. If it makes the same sense to them as it does here, no doubt they would do as you suggest. I suspect, however, they may have other more pressing problems which ‘release’ of domestic E-cats could make a major dent in.

            Lack of infrastructure in the hinterland (which is most of these countiries), need to lift large sections of their populace fro poverty, acute atmospheric pollution. I don’t pretend to really understand these incredible places (the more I travel to them, the less I understand them) but i do know very different forces are at work there than in the Atlantic Countries.

            On the basic projection though, we are agreed. If one significant country ‘breaks ranks’ – China being the easiest to imagine – the whole structure of ‘The Ban’ will implode in a period of less than 10 years. Laws or not – politicians can change the law or be voted out by an increasigly rebellious populace.

            It all comes down to ‘IF….’

      • Omega Z

        49’er

        Even you & I may see base heat units for private use, but, as to in home electrical production, Your probably right, tho for the wrong reason.
        Most of us are following this because of cheap energy, but everything I’ve looked into indicates home electrical generating will cost more then the existing grid energy.

        Large Scale still holds true for cheap efficient energy. Though LENR technology lends itself to smaller scale while retaining cheap efficient energy, it does not retain it at the home level.

        Many will bring up Sterling engines, Rather then point out all the fallacies & issues, I would just point out that if they lived up to cheap & efficient, they would already be used in mass by the power companies. All this said, I’m still optimistic that in time, other conversion technologies may evolve & make home systems economical. Possibly as soon as 10 years.

  • pg

    If Bill Gates is happy to be photographed while visiting a cold fusion research center during a cold fusion explanation, there has to be already a lot going on.
    The ENEA center in Frascati is mainly a ITER research center, so for him to go there specifically to learn about cold fusion (ITER nemesis) says a lot to me.

  • georgehants

    Would it be fair to say that if it is True as commented above that —–
    “To speak out could cost them their careers.”
    ——-
    Then something is horrendously wrong with the scientific profession?
    How long before the “ordinary” scientist stars ts to grow some balls and do something about this situation.
    There are still many on these pages that would rather take out their failures and blame me rather than open their eyes and admit and recognise the pathetic course they are following.
    Time for science and most scientists to grow-up and stop blaming everybody else for the millions that have died and are dying because of the scientific failures in many areas, Cold Fusion being just the most obvious.

  • Gerard McEk

    Your arguments also show he effectieness by which P&F were doomed. It is frightning to see that even after more than 25 years the aura of pseudo science can maintain itself despite compelling evidence of the opposite. Those (industries, institutes and scientists) who used this ban for F&P should be deeply punished because they were/are denying the world an energy solution, due to which we possibly have blown our atmosphere.

    • Gerard McEk

      BTW, the main page does not show this article!

  • http://sifferkoll.se Sifferkoll®

    They don’t talk much about it, but many of them knows a lot. It’s their job and it is not that difficult. I believe there to be one prime indicator that quantifies their belief in LENR and that is the price of WTI futures. I updated the timeline at http://sifferkoll.se and yesterday events with Brillouin, Gates and Panorama on E-Catworld correlates quite well with the moves. Not to mention the Beijing meeting on Nov. 10th. What was discussed? Energy is a somewhat important issue…

    • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

      I’m not convinced that WTI future are mostly caused by LENR, but maybe few operators simply don’t bet anyboure on a big bounce in long term…
      maybe.

      this article state clearly what we observe… that there is no arguments, but the fear of ridicule, which fuels itself.
      the less people admit LENR is real and never have been debunked, that there is no critic that stand scientifically, NONE AT ALL (at least for some scientific controversies today, there is debate, here there is no debate, no fact, beside theories and conspiracies), the more the people are afraid to even consider the evidence, even just read the evidences…

      the more also the mindguard, well described in groupthink litterature, feel protected and self-confident. they have fraded, they lie, they libel, they attack… and they feel thay cannot be sued, cannor be debunked, cannot be criticized else by people who have no support.

      the worst is that, except for some people who own their own money (not corp execs), nobody dare to enter that story…

  • Buck

    OZ,

    you have made a good point. I think it leads directly to Rossi’s stated position: only the market will resolve the question of LENR’s reality and F&P’s reputation.

    And, the world waits for the other shoe to drop while the Oil Futures market drops with some now talking of $50/bbl.

    • Omega Z

      The price decline is a coincidence. It’s cause is from several factors. The Global economy is tanking is one cause of decline in demand while world production is increasing.

      The single biggest contributor is the U.S.
      Car fleet mileage is up but not so much to be a major factor, but then Fleet size has also declined. Also consider in “07”, The single largest oil consumer, the U.S. consumed about 23% of world oil output of which somewhere around 75% was imported. Today, that is about 18% to 20% & about 50% of that is imported.

      That’s about 6 million barrels a day that the U.S. no longer imports. More then enough to offset reductions forced on Iran & other declines. Add to that, Russia & the Saudi’s have also increased production over the last several years. You simply have an Oil Glut.

      Notes of interest.
      U.S. Oil Inventory increased again last week by half a million barrels.
      Big Oil may shift to drilling in cheaper locations, but they continue to drill. They don’t take account of today’s oil price, but expected demand 5 years out. The smaller & Independents do take notice of current price, but with additional advances, feel that anything above $40 dollars a barrel is still profitable even for the shale oils. It’s still drill baby drill.

      On another thread, someone mentioned that OPEC usually cuts production in these situations. Why not this time, There’s the conspiracy thing of trying to break U.S. Oil Co’s. But the Arabs fighting for market share is the true reality.

      The dynamics have changed. The boom in U.S. oil production has shrank the world oil market. Market share is a real concern for the Arabs now and as People & Countries are creatures of habit, retaining & gaining remaining market share has become crucial. Sustained profit losses will be acceptable for a period of time before production is cut. Only an Economic upturn will make much difference. This situation could persist for a year or 2 until that comes about.

      • Fortyniner

        It all gets a bit circular at that point (“This situation could persist…”). There seem to be absolutely no developments in the wind that could result in an end to bankster-driven ‘austerity’ in Europe, and general corporate theft in the US, to drive any statistically significant improvement in general living standards …. except a new, cheap clean energy source available outside the corporate domain.

        If as seems likely, cold fusion slowly replaces fossil fuel generation at a speed determined by its corporate owners, then the energy sector’s profits will go through the roof and many other industries will benefit from cheaper mains power. However the average ‘consumer’ will not see anything more than a small reduction in power bills, and perhaps a few pence off a litre of fuel. There will be little other ‘trickle down’ just as enormous increases in productivity over the last few decades have not resulted in any significant increase in the living standards of the average oik.

        The only thing that could really change the world is a cold fusion ‘free for all’ in which anyone can use the technology, just as anyone can make use of an IC engine or electric motor in their products. From where I stand, this currently looks unlikely in the extreme (too many losers, so it simply won’t be ‘permitted’ by TPTB).

      • Buck

        OZ, I disagree a little . . . To explain, I’m recapping a response to LENR G about the apparent phenomena of the shifting tide seemingly now in support of LENR.

        It was noted within a few days of 10/8/14 that the ITPR2 was downloaded near 100k times. Further, that some were traced to an international sized bank, which acted as the basis for making a reasonable assumption: large players specifically and purposefully searched out and gathered critical LENR information.

        If you include the neutral to positive critiques of the ITPR2, including Elforsk’s response, with the staggering results of ITPR2 and IH/Rossi’s current customer’s pilot plant R&D timeline, you have sufficient information. If you are a money man/decision maker responsible for a large body of assets and capital, you adjust your view of investment ROI probabilities . . . and this ‘trickles’ into your decisions.

        Hypothetically, if there are 10,000 players making a market and the results of ITPR2 triggers a shift from 99.9% disbelief to 90% disbelief, then there are now about 1000 players, instead of 10, investing towards a Fossil Fuel to LENR transition. There are now 100x more players pressuring the Supply/Demand Curve. To the uninformed players, this might feel like an ill-defined groundswell.

        If you look at Frank’s poll about the impact of ITPR2 on one’s belief, then a shift from 99.9% to 90% disbelief does not appear to be unreasonable.

        And, as they say “The Early Bird Catches the Worm”, none of the Players are really going to share the fact of LENR inevitability as they want to be the hero (as well as avoid the taint of fringe science criticism). And if they choose to share, it will only be with a limited group of close associates.