More From Rossi on Theory

There’s been quite a lot of discussion about the theoretical basis behind the E-Cat since the Lugano report was published, and more recentlyalso after the publication of the paper on ‘bound neutron tunneling’ by Carl-Oscar Gullström, which Andrea Rossi told me in an email (and gave me permission to repeat) he considered a ‘small jewel’ because it gave an interesting theoretical hypothesis to study.

I asked on the Journal of Nuclear physics about the reason for such interest, posting the following comment and question.

You have mentioned how you are very interested with the recent Gullstrom paper, and you and your team is studying it carefully. This suggests you are still learning about the theoretical basis of the E-Cat.

Can you create a satisfactory E-Cat product without a full understanding of the theory behind it?

Andrea Rossi responded:

Your question must be divided in different well distinguished points:
1- Yes, we are studying the paper of Gullstroem
2- We are studying at 360° all the possibilities of reconciliation between the Standard Model and the results of the ITP Report
3- I am studying the possible theoretical bases of the so called “Rossi Effect”, that I made through a Galilean methodology of try and error. As a matter of fact I think a theory is ready, but it is strictly bound to particulars of the reactor that cannot be disclosed so far. I am working upon the issue in collaboration with nuclear physicists.
4- To create a satisfactory product without a full understanding of the theory behind it is not just possible, it is what happens most of times for most of the inventions: circa 2550 years ago Pytagoras has burnt the fleet of the enemies assailing Syracuse using mirrors that reflected the sunrays: a full understanding of the theory behind this “Pytagoras Effect” has been found after 2450 years, with the discovery of photons. But the product worked pretty well, ask the enemies of Syracuse!
Obviously, the same principle is valid for the E-Cat.

Quite an interesting response, but still somewhat confusing. Rossi says he thinks a theory is ready, but he can’t say what it is because it could give away some proprietary information. But even with his own confidence in his theory garnered through trial and error, he and physicists on his team are still looking at the theoretical work of others, and the information provided by the Lugano report.

And even if theoretical issues are not settled, Rossi seems to consider the E-Cat to be functional and usable.

  • georgehants

    Roger your illogical thinking is amusing.
    How will we “become better human beings” if instead of doing so we follow you and just keep waiting to become so.
    Action leads to an effect, inaction leads to dead brained apathy, as with Cold Fusion, thank god for people like Mr Rossi and others that try and make things happen.
    Your reasoning is very funny if it where not such a serious subject.
    If you are going to try and reply, reply to my whole point and not some made-up tripe that you dream I have said.

  • MasterBlaster7

    I think is point is….we can make it…and use it….without understanding how it truly works.

  • georgehants

    Roger, you said it.

  • Axil Axil

    Regarding: the publication of the paper on ‘bound neutron tunneling’ by Carl-Oscar Gullström

    I think that neutrons are not involved in the “Rossi Process” because no free neutrons are ever observed in the reaction…never.

    If neutrons were tunneling into a given nucleus, with the numberless trillions involved in the reaction there would be at least some nuclei that eventually received and overabundance of them. This neutron overload would result in radioactive decay. Even a very few neutrons would be detected.

    On the other hand, protons tunneling would cause positron emissions as excess protons changed themselves into neutrons to get to the island of stability that we see in the LENR reaction.

    There is no gamma radiation usually seen in these newly designed reactors that would have been produced by these positrons,,,true, but sometimes these gammas did show themselves usually during startup or shutdown of the early Rossi reactors before a cold reactor was determined to be the cause of this unpleasant radiation problem.

    Out of the two possible causes of transmutation of elements: protons and neutrons, protons more likely fit the bill supported by LENR Ni-H experimental evidence.

    • LCD

      Protons mean coulomb barrier problems, screening concepts. Neutrons mean normal and reverse beta decay issues.

      Pick your poison

      • Axil Axil

        A magnetic field is not effected by the coulomb barrier. This hang-up on Neutrons is a primary conceptual roadblock to a valid LENR theory.

        • LCD

          I’m not sure what your saying here.

          • Axil Axil

            A magnetic field will pass right through the coulomb barrier and disrupt the quarks inside the nucleus of atoms by making them one dimensional through aliening the charge of the quarks along magnetic field lines .

            • LCD

              Okay and then

              • Axil Axil

                Then transmutation happens…

  • LCD

    Clovis I just mean that given a minimum successful openly available recipe if you will, lots of purple will try to learn and enhance the reaction. At some point a publicly available do it yourself kit will be available

    • Mike

      Yes and unlike the dangerous nuclear tech. Anyone will be able to safely tinker, and that is where the steve jobs’ all over the world will shine.

      • LCD

        Exactly

  • LCD

    No clovis, once there is 100 commercial units working, the secrets will be leaked out.

    Never depend on the secret staying secret.

  • LCD

    I think the possibility of the Nobel Prize in Physics is there. Because if he doesn’t and somebody else does, that would hurt.

    • bitplayer

      Being the savior of hundreds of millions might take away a little of the pain

      • LCD

        But I’m saying if blp comes out with it first they could also get recognized as such.

  • LCD

    yeah that’s what I thought. At first I was trying to figure out when the triangles were going to come in. lol

  • georgehants

    Roger another carefully though out response, well done

  • Bernie777

    Oh, I opened up myself up for that one didn’t I. (:

  • Sanjeev

    I do not recommend it.
    If someone wants you dead, all he needs to do is give you a 100$ bill and take a photo. You will be out of his way “legally”. Very simple to misuse.

    I guess you also know that, its common sense. I’m glad the law makers know this too and we do not have capital punishment for all crimes, it would make a heaven for cunning criminals.

  • georgehants

    Roger, interesting and intelligent, well done.

  • georgehants

    Roger, when you advance beyond quoting North Korea every time capitalism is mentioned you may have something worthwhile to say.
    That is like quoting Thalidomide every time somebody says there are some good drugs in the World.

    • bachcole

      When you get out of denial about North Korea and EVERY OTHER communist country is the HISTORY of the world, then what you have to say may show some wisdom.

      • georgehants

        Roger, I have never said that we should be communist or anything like it.
        I have said many times we must find the best system.
        That is why your continual unfounded, childish attacks are ridiculous.
        You appear to be unable to reply to what has actually been said.
        Please try harder or get somebody more able to help you write your comments.

  • georgehants

    Christina, you would seem correct in all areas but you seem to have “avoided” the Fact that people are easily led into terrible crimes against each other, as history has many times shown.
    Those with the “gift” to lead seem to invariably lead the masses to do their bidding and many are very willing to do so in return for favour.
    Only I think when the freedom is given to all people to choose without coercion will the True goodness of almost everybody shine through.
    The Question is how to allow all people that choice between “evil” and good.
    Condemning one system is pointless, the trick surly is simply for us all to find and work for the BEST system.

  • Obvious

    There was extreme difficulty was in aiming all the mirrors effectively, simultaneously.

  • GreenWin

    Well put. Theory-less natural remedies have been effective for centuries. The pharma industry would have us believe they invent their products, rather than synthesize them from nature.

  • robyn wyrick

    We are back to the strange waiting pattern. It is frustrating, but mostly because I am not personally privy to Rossi’s (or anyone else’s) secrets – as if I have any right to them. 🙂

    But I did want to pipe in on a thread below: Capitalism v Something Else

    I usually try to avoid these side-tracks here on ECW, but I think I see a point of relevance. I’m a Socialist, and an opinionated one. But like the wild majority of people, I am a pragmatist. I’m looking for any way to put food on the table that feels fulfilling and as little harmful as possible.

    And I think that is the way with most partisans as well. As a good partisan, I drink very deeply from my own media, and that of my fellows, and I tend to ignore or ridicule Fox News and the like. But I think the challenge for partisans like me is to be honest about the (many) weaknesses of my own position, and the (also, sometimes many) virtues of those who disagree with me.

    I really appreciate that people have strongly held positions on this, but it is interesting to me how it mirrors the public discourse on Cold Fusion. Partisans ridicule each other, they deny the validity of the other’s claims.

    I think it is a good parallel for building common ground.

    • georgehants

      What do you think is a good moderator of these positions of differing opinions.
      I personally see no alternative than to work away from the simple Truth and what best can described honestly as, best for everybody.
      One, I think must have a plan of action in any endevour.
      Can anyone suggest better rules to follow without moving into incongruous philosophy?

      • bitplayer

        Follow, encourage, engage with and support MFMP

  • Andreas Moraitis

    I do not accept the death penalty for several reasons, one of them is very simple: If a person has been wrongly convicted, you can release her/him from prison – even after many years. But you cannot bring that person back to life.

    • US_Citizen71

      That is a good point, but it does have a deterrence effect. In the day of the wild west in the US you could leave a fully saddled horse tied with a very simple knot outside of a saloon, store, brothel, etc… and not be worried about it being stolen even with only one law enforcement official for the entire town. Why? Because horse thieves were hung from the neck until dead. A stolen horse was very serious crime, a posse would be formed to track down the theif. Come forward to today locked cars are routinely stolen from locked garages. Why? Stealing a car might get you 5 years and that is if you happen to get caught. Law enforcement is no longer all that concerned with solving the crime. In many jurisdictions you can’t even get them to come out to take a report, you have to go to them.

  • Christopher Calder

    News organizations have it all wrong. We should EXPECT the radically new.

    In the 20th century there were many incredible scientific discoveries that radically changed the way we live. In this century we will have many breakthroughs, and I feel we are headed for a cluster of such important events created by a critical mass of accumulated information and the lighting speed at which that information is communicated around the world. The discovery of the neutron changed physics in the last century. In this century the discovery of nanoscale magnetic fields and the high power potential of nickel based LENR reactors will alter our understanding of physics. News organizations should expect dramatically new technologies instead of being surprised by them. They are predictable by the mathematics of our situation and position in history. If we live in an old mental box created in the 20th century, we will not be able to see what is going on now.

  • georgehants

    Roger your comment is so logically faulty that it is not worth replying to.
    I suggest you reread it to see the errors and then try again, this time making some sort of sense.
    To give you a clue you say —-
    ” When we improve that, then things will get better,”
    —-
    If you try very hard you may just see that my comments are trying to start that improvement that you spend all your time attacking.

  • GreenWin

    There will never be popular news coverage until this simulation’s programmers accept the fact they are outed, and they got some serious ‘splaining to do.

    • georgehants

      GreenWin, please agree the obvious, when one of the premier scientific comics writes an honest and Factual report on present day Cold Fusion then the media will cover it fully and immediately.
      It is not the media delaying things but corrupt and incompetent science.

      • GreenWin

        George I think you’re right, this world demands genuflection from the “science priesthood” before it dare wipe its bottom. However, this is NOT the behavior of human beings. Organic human beings exercise free will regularly. Especially in media. This sim’s programmers have painted themselves into a corner by gagging the free press. This is apparently because they lack the intellectual prowess to counter the true LENR story. Or are too consumed with fear and loathing to grasp the concept, “There IS enough.”

        As Brian Josephson points out, the day Nature writes honestly about LENR, pigs will fly. (This excludes bankster pigs who will remain rooted in self-generated muck.)

        • georgehants

          GreenWin, so agree, the media is almost totally corrupt, but we must keep things in an order, it is the complete corruption of science that has led to the horrors and crimes regarding Cold Fusion.
          I put up a report yesterday on the previous page of scientists attempting to gag Cold Fusion in favour of Hot Fusion.
          It did not receive one reply, what is it with people on here, are they all frightened the CIA, NSA etc. are going to find out who they are and get them removed.
          What a big brother life we live in.

          • Obvious

            Gagging Cold Fusion is not news to most of us. That probably explains our lame response to your post.
            But the news vultures will swoop in when CF/LENR starts making real headway. The overturning of physics careers and beholden theories will be a hot story, and start making all the papers and media outlets. For about a week or two… Then media will focus on some boy stuck in a well, some new plague, toxins in kids toys, some automobile safety recall… for a week or two, until the next hot paper/media subscription/advertising hit seller comes along.

            • georgehants

              Obvious, yours appears to be a pointless circular speculation.
              Do you not think it would be better for you to agree that Cold Fusion should be urgently covered by these comics and then we can see and judge the response of the media without silly speculation.

              • Obvious

                No. I don’t want uninterested scientists looking at CF/LENR. And BS media usually just adds a bad smell to things they don’t understand.

                • georgehants

                  Obvious, is that the excuse for so little complaint from scientists of the crimes that have been committed regarding Cold fusion by science?
                  They are uninterested.
                  If so who do you suggest should look after the interests of the population in scientific matters?

                • Obvious

                  Obviously, interested persons. Persons who are not interested are not motivated to do a good job, or to dig deeper into a problem and do something about it.

                • georgehants

                  Obvious, I think by the responses I have seen on these pages over the years you are correct.
                  As I said above, what a terrible condemnation of your colleagues.
                  Uncaring yes men it seems you are saying, that are interested in nothing beyond their egos and financial rewards.
                  That would certainly fit the reaction I have seen from most of them here.

                • Obvious

                  There are altruists, of course. But they are the minority. And they rarely bang their own drum, so they are often unheard in noisy crowds of self interest.

                • GreenWin

                  The media is painted as a monolithic, consensus-strangled behemoth in this “reality.” In organic human experience there are always independent voices; often taking a strong moral stand. The lack of this human morality confirms an “unrecoverable error” in the sim’s programming.

          • Mike

            What? capitalism is how we got here. Capitalism has been corrupted and bastardized by the marxists who control it now. Capitalism is capitalism, which is still the best chance people have to become independent. It has no mind to corrupt. Take a look at the banks that threw money at people after the fair housing act. You know the same banks that got the 1.5 trillion in the bailouts. Look who their presidents were giving money to. Left wing every one of them. Make no mistake about it, it was not capitalism that caused it. It was evil people and they got everyone to blame capitalism. And they are so proud of themselves how well it worked. Now the left gained full control and are destroying the world. And even smart people like yourself carry the water for them. pity. and real capitalism is lenr’s best chance.

            • georgehants

              Mike, I carry water for everybody, I only say combine all systems and new systems to find the best system for today’s World.
              It is of course logically impossible for any sane person to disagree with me, but you may notice many do.
              That is the insane incompetent World we live in.

  • Private Citizen

    Didn’t Rossi promise he would release his theory when the latest test results were released, whether they be positive or negative? Are the goal posts moving again?

    • LuFong

      Yes he did and it’s not the first time either. I think by now Rossi believed that he would have an operational E-Cat plant and that the E-Cat would be ready for mass market. Clearly that’s a long way away so it makes no sense to him to disclose theory. It’s also not clear now that IH and probably more lawyers are involved what he will end up doing. I cannot see him disclosing theory until IH or licensee’s are mass producing E-Cats.

      • Fortyniner

        The latter, I would imagine. If IH goes down the trade secret route then as you say, there would be no advantage in disclosure, other than in general terms for sales purposes.

      • Mike

        You’ll know when Rossi is ready for a theory. He won’t need a receptacle then. 🙂
        All Rossi is doing is showing over unity right now I think. Which is fine with me.

    • Sanjeev

      I agree, he did say that but I guess he did not “promise”. 🙂

      Honestly, I suspect that he has no theory. Or whatever he has is wrong/useless.

      After seeing his reaction to the ash analysis and his statement that it can take 1 year to troubleshoot his x MW plant, I do not think he or IH got any clue. These are not the words of a person who knows a correct theory.

      • LCD

        Yeah if they do know, it is not being expressed in his body (online) language.

        You have to believe though that the marker for releasing any theory has to be when patent disclosures are forced to become public.

    • Axil Axil

      Rossi does not have a theory…most likely.

  • Christopher Calder

    I am surprised that Wired Magazine has not covered the latest E-Cat test in their November issue. At least I have not found anything on the web. Also, I could not find anything from Forbes Magazine. Their silence is strange.

    • GreenWin

      Chris the “silence” is inhumane. Fitting of a “Programmed Reality” controlled by an overseeing intelligence as described by Jim Elvidge, Cornell MSEE and author of “The Universe
      Solved.” The discouraging part is the non-intuitive, non-human programming this “reality” represents. Listen to this
      interview on Red Ice Radio for a reasoned explanation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7zBenPpZlA At 25:50 they discuss Cold Fusion denial.

  • Ted-X

    One interesting thing in the Gulfstrom theory is the neutron exchange between nuclei. It corresponds with the recently found meta-states of some atoms, which have a ring of neutrons far away from the nucleus. This is a quite recent discovery. These meta-states are believed to last microseconds. So … if two such atoms in the meta-states, with neutron rings, hit each other, then the neutron exchange will be quite likely, I believe. The atom with greater affinity to neutrons would grab one neutron from the other meta-element, and such a process could be potentially without radiation. I do not have theoretical background in quantum physics, but the Gulfstrom theory, if it does not use this concept, perhaps could benefit from considering the meta-states of elements with the external neutron rings/shells.
    It is interesting to note that Xenon-135 has the affinity to neutrons rated as 2,000,000 barns, which indicates that some atoms are willing to grab any neutron in their vicinity.
    Any quantum physicist on the list?

  • Daniel Maris

    Frank –

    I have a question you could ask Mr Rossi:

    “Are your colleagues at IH, in particular Mr Vaughn and Mr Darden aware of the location of the pilot installation?”

    • ecatworld

      Rossi says he is on site with a team working on the plant. I’m not sure why would you think IH doesn’t know of the location. I would expect that Tom Darden and JT Vaughn would have been involved in setting up the project.

      • Gerrit

        Better ask Rossi if the has to clean the clay of his shoes every evening when he drives home.

      • bachcole

        I am sure that Darden and company can visit anytime that they feel like it. After all, it is their project, legally speaking.

      • Daniel Maris

        Well I wouldn’t think that if Rossi had ever said “The IH Vice President has visited the premises and is very impressed.” – or something similar.

        It seems to me a reasonable question to put to someone who shares a lot of information about what is being done.

        I’m just a little disappointed other IH personnel, apart from Rossi, haven’t been open about what’s going on with E Cat developments. I don’t think it’s an unreasonable expectation.

        • Fortyniner

          Darden has fairly openly tried to downplay IH’s development of the e-cat by suggesting that it is just one of several possibilities they are looking into. It is fairly plain that they don’t want publicity at this time. Possibly they need to give some of their big fish associates time to shed their interests in nuclear energy and other potentially stranded assets. Avoiding any comment on the involvement of IH figureheads would be consistent with this desire.

  • BillH

    Just in case anyone is confused by Mr Rossi’s 2nd response I take it to mean he is working round the clock (360, degrees, full circle) and this is not a reference to temperature.

  • bachcole

    The television show “The Mythbusters” claim to have debunked the Syracuse mirror trick.

    • Manuel Cruz

      Take note that the mirror trick works on the boat if tar has been applied for buoyance. It also works if you point it to the crew.

      • Donk970

        Mythbusters tried that. The tar got smoking hot but wouldn’t catch fire. The more likely thing is that the crew was blinded and made very uncomfortable and they just beat feat for home.

    • Donk970

      I saw that one too. I doubt that you could set a boat, even one with tar on it, on fire but you could certainly make the crew very unhappy.

    • björn

      The Mythbusters crew are pretty average Joes in a garage. None of them can compare to Archimedes in any way. If the Mythbusters cant do something, that tells me very little. On the other hand, if they CAN pull something off, then we have a very practical and potentially useful phenomena that can easily be replicated and greatly improved upon.

    • Fortyniner

      They aren’t the first to ‘debunk’ this story:

      https://www.math.nyu.edu/~crorres/Archimedes/Mirrors/legend/legend.html

  • georgehants

    It will be noted that without the totally ineficiant and wasteful capitalistic system the “secrets” would be freely given now for others to work on the technology, leading hopefully to it’s implementation to save lives and help the World much faster.
    25 years and counting, still there is a great mass of corruption etc. holding back work on possibly the most important breakthrough for mankind in history.

    • Warthog

      Yup, “capitalism” is inefficient and wasteful. The only problem is that all the other systems thus far tried by mankind are worse. Look up the humanitarian and environmental effects of those “efficient and not wasteful” socialist systems….”national socialism”, fascism, communism, etc. All very efficient…..at producing misery.

      • invient

        Look at the social indicators pre and post soviet bloc.

        The desocialisation of those areas led to alcoholism and deaths by destitution.

        Capitalism has its place and its time, the soviets rushed it. It is not the end of history, not yet anyway.

      • georgehants

        Warthog, perhaps you like me could think of a better system that takes into account all the necessary needs, or are you saying, just give up and put up with crap such as the stupidity of the Cold Fusion saga for 25 years and half the World suffering.
        Sounds like an average scientist talking to me.
        Well done

        • psi2u2

          If we can learn from history, we will avoid these mistakes. I know that my own tendencies towards wanting a more just society, with more equal distribution of wealth (NOT completely equal, which is monstrous, but just with less of a discrepancy between rich and poor – especially the working poor) is tempered by the lessons of the past. Guillotining the wealthy does not produce a better society – that has been proven.

          • georgehants

            psi2u2, sounds positive, we just need another few million to start caring about things worthwhile.

          • Donk970

            Heh, what the uber wealthy need to learn from history is that the guillotine’s tend to come out when things get really lopsided. People will generally put up with a lot of crap but at some point basic survival becomes an issue and out come the guillotine’s.

        • Warthog

          I’m just fine with the American form of capitalism (i.e. free enterprise). It has the best track record of any approach to socioeconomic governance, both as regards freedom AND as regards wealth creation and distribution.

          It’s too bad we are abandoning it for “crony capitalism”. And I very seriously doubt that “you” could “think up a better system”. “I” certainly make no claim to such, especially when I see us trading the imperfect for the disastrous.

      • Ted-X

        The capitalistic system has many flavors. Compare USA, Switzerland and Sweden and their corresponding social care. There is a wiggle space within the capitalistic system. However, we do not have any social/political theory for the next 200 years. The past theories, national socialism, socialism, anarchism – they are all not good for the next 200 years. My fear is that the theory will develop the way it happened in the french revolution, which would be even worse than all of the above.

      • Donk970

        Capitalism is like gravity. Capitalism is what drives all economies just like gravity is what makes things fall. To say you believe in capitalism is about as silly as saying you believe in gravity. The real question is what you do with the capitalistic impulse. Right now, in this country, capitalism has been allowed to dominate everything including our political process to the point where it has become toxic to the economy. This is only going to get worse as we move further and further towards full automation of production. Without some form of intervention our economy will completely fail at some point.

      • Daniel Maris

        Probably welfare-based social democratic societies are the most efficient. If you look at things like mental illness, drug addiction, people in prison, and so on, the USA is a very inefficient society.

      • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

        The problem of today’s is not capitalism, or economic freedom, but that freedom without responsibilities…
        currently big money abuse of the government to protect their business… banks are of that kind, but green business too, most big companies ask the government to save them from the nasty capitalist abroad, meaning to fire people…
        and instead of caring of the workers education for next millenium, the government try to block the arrow of time.

        the freedom of business, the responsibilities, does not mean you have to be treated like in the jungle…people have to be protected, not businesses, not jobs.

        I hear many people says that robots will kill jobs. I hope it, but my answer is that the future of small people, of those without genius, is not to have tiny wages, but to be tiny capitalist… like tiny farmers have tiny land after a good agrarian reform.

        the future is not to work for microsoft or Apple, because it would be robots and genius who would do the job.

        It is to own a 3D printer, a LENR CHP, a Uber google car… to help you neigour when he is in trouble, for money… people with more money, because they have a good job… a good 3D printer… a good sales network for their 3D printed toys, a good restaurant with many robots to help; would be happy to have happy neighbors who help them when they are busy with their clients or robots…
        they won’t pay much, but since goods will be cheap, it will allows many goods to be bought…

        and for work, it would be simply exchange for what is needed…

        the real key problem is that out 20th century model of business is big corps, big factories, big power plants…
        the future is microbusiness, based on huge virtualized internet platforms like AirBnb, Uber, Blablacar, Ebay, with real people using tiny capital like botcar, CHP, 3D printer, botkitchen, to earn their life…

        the secret would be on one side to free business from many rules designed to protect the economic rent…
        On the other side, solidarity, welfare state, should protect the people from their failures, not totally but enough so that they can bounce again. Go chapter 11 law for people are required.
        simple business rules.

        I’ve heard of the Swiss system, which is very welfare in a way. but also much simple and not at all over regulated…
        The opposite of french system.

        Probably the swedish system have some of those characteristics…

        another characteristic is also that the community have to be small enough that people feel they share something, they have to support their neighbors.

        capitalism works with responsibilities, which lead to solidarity to mutualize sincerely some risk.

        note also that real capitalism, when there is no commons to exploit, and you have either to pay, or own, natural resources, makes you much more cautious about wasting…
        however, as Jean Tirole explains well, in real case some regulation is required when the market is wrongly structured. however this regulation is not the one we often see, which try to correct the problem by hand, but one which responsabilize the stakeholders clearly so they behave well…

    • bachcole

      And of course, without the (sic) ineficiant and wasteful capitalistic system, no one would have any incentive to work on the project putting in 14 hour days for years on end, and that is just the tip of the iceberg. For other problems check with the citizens of North Korea. They would know more about it than I do.

      • psi2u2

        Hi Bachole, let me say that I enjoy the spirited exchange between yourself and Georgehants and am willing to split the difference. You are quite right that one benefit of capitalism is that it can spur innovation by offering the lure of reward. On the other hand, the internet has shown that the classical “law” of economics, which holds that work is the result of offering financial incentive, is completely wrong. Innovation can and does thrive for purely social reasons; witness, with all its imperfections, Wikipedia, or open source software, which while it can involve a profit motive, does not always do so. Hopefully, if the human race survives, we will find our way to some forms of society that involve the best of both both socialism and capitalism – blunting or eliminating the worst aspects of both while encouraging human development, diversity, and freedom while recognizing that w are all essentially social beings, and that basic human rights might include things like access to free or very low cost health care, etc. — an area where, imho, the US is lagging behind the rest of the world.

      • georgehants

        bachcole, you are back to talking selective junk again.
        Please try a little more intelligent reply for me to answer.

      • Donk970

        The problem with your argument is that capitalism cuts both ways. There is a HUGE, multi trillion dollar, profit motive to prevent LENR research from being done. The research got done anyway despite the complete lack of financial support and outright hostility towards the whole idea because the people doing the work were motivated by the desire to discover. The biggest problem with capitalism is that as we move into an era of automation the need for labor is diminished. Even menial labor like flipping burgers will eventually be done by robots. Capitalism simply cannot survive this condition because the flow of money to buy product will be interrupted. If nobody has a job then nobody can buy product. If nobody can buy product a company can’t make a profit and the whole thing collapses in a heap.

    • Bernie777

      georgehants…..Mr. Darden of IH has said he does not care about the money, for him it is all about coal and not letting it destroy our planet. So, we might get your wish. It would certainly help my image among my friends, they all think I am a “cold fusion” nut case. (:

      • georgehants

        Bernie, sorry, you are correct, it is difficult for me to always cover every angle with my general points.
        I do not blame Mr. Darden or Mr. Rossi or many others who are forced to work within the terrible corruption of capitalism etc.
        I blame and am amazed at the lack of action by ordinary people here and everywhere in changing a situation that has allowed this corruption to delay Cold Fusion for 25 years and counting.
        I despair at the apparent non-concern or lack of responsibility shown by supposedly intelligent people regarding their childrens present and future welfare.

        • Bernie777

          George I agree with you, probably not as hard on “capitalism” as you are, mainly because I see no system better. Capitalism and the free market system could be a lot better, with more effective regulations. I am all for fewer silly ineffective regulations but more effective regulations, to keep the free market system in check.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    “To create a satisfactory product without a full understanding of the theory behind it is not just possible, it is what happens most of times for most of the inventions.”

    I would say that the required amount of theory depends on the complexity of the product. Without a deeper understanding of the theoretical side it would not be possible to develop a Global Positioning System, a MRI tomograph, or an iPhone. Rossi’s advantage is that his reactors are comparatively simple devices, so that an “Edisonian” approach may be successful. This appears to be a lucky chance of history, but at the same time it reduces the acceptance of the invention: People are so accustomed to complexity that they do not believe that a simple tube with some wires could solve one of the most urgent problems of mankind.

    • GordonDocherty

      “simple tube with some wires” – puts me in mind of the tin cans connected by a piece of string “telephone” system 🙂

  • mytakeis

    off topic, just want to say thanks, after registering for the FORUM, I can now see comments and comment again. Feel like I’m back home.

    • Andre Blum

      welcome back and I have no clue what you just said. Everyone ought to see comments without registering for anything. Posting requires to use one of many ways of letting know who you are.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Mitsubishi Heavy Industries received a LENR patent. They mention what happens and nothing about how it happens (unless I missed something). So, I don’t think Rossi needs a theory to get a patent.
    http://www.google.com/patents/EP1202290B1?cl=en

    • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

      Sure, what is needed when there is no accepted/mainstream theory predicting that some device probably works, is that the examiner may ask evidence it work…

      Theory is more a problem in a patent, as David French repeated many time. Why some scientists put theory in their patents is irrational.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Dennis Cravens has shown how it goes. File a patent application on a heating element without talking too much about theory, and – voilà! – the patent will be granted:

        http://www.google.com/patents/US8485791

        This is obviously a LENR device. Note that Cravens cites Rossi’s US patent in the appendix.

        • Ted-X

          From the Craven’s patent:
          ————————————————————————————————————-
          Preferred fuels comprise Hydrogen, Deuterium or other isotopes of hydrogen that can be at least partially ionized or polarized. Preferred dopants can include Palladium, Nickel, Thorium or other metallic compounds or alloys.
          ————————————————————————————————————–
          So, one of the LENR patents has already been granted. Creative writing by Cravens.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Yeah, it would only provide them with a target to shoot at.
        Julian Schwinger couldn’t get his cold fusion theory papers published!
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Schwinger

  • Mike Henderson

    This is how neutrons are accelerated using Coulomb forces: http://i.imgur.com/Du1FYV4.gif

  • LuFong

    Rossi did not mention that without theory (peer reviewed scientific body of evidence showing the basis of his technology) he cannot get a patent. Would he release a product for mass production without IP protection? I doubt it (although he has said he would in the past). I see him releasing his theory only when IH is ready to mass market the E-Cat and the science behind it can be validated so that patents can be obtained. So Rossi basically has said nothing here.

    • MasterBlaster7

      So, by your reasoning Coca Cola and Kentucky Fried Chicken would never be on the market. They are both only protected by trade secrets and trade secrets also fall under the umbrella of Intellectual Property. I think Rossi will absolutely proceed to mass market without patent protection. Actually, success in the mass market is going to be the only way to force main stream science do a 180 and throw brains and money at the problem. Also, cracking the problem with MSS and commercial success is going to be the only way to force the issue with the US patent office.

      • Donk970

        I agree completely except that the mass marketing will have to begin outside of the US. My guess is that China and India will build millions of these things which will give them a huge competitive advantage over the US. At some point the desire of companies to even up this competitive advantage will outweigh the desire of a few industries to hang on to fossil fuel profits. Eventually the political pressure from corporations who need this technology will outweigh the pressure from corporations that want fossil fuel profits to continue

        • MasterBlaster7

          Why would a mass market commercial device have to start outside of the US? Are we talking personal devices here or industrial devices? Cause, for the purpose of my statements above, I am just talking about a lot of industrial devices….I’m not really concerned about the e-cat that you can pick up at home depot (at this point).

      • LuFong

        Firstly, I need to qualify my use of “theory.” I meant to also imply that if the Rossi Effect is studied and published in a peer reviewed scientific publication then that would qualify for patent purposes. My definition of theory does include this but the term theory does not really. This is why the Lugano test and even the “Bound Neutron Tunneling” paper could be extremely important to Rossi but I seriously doubt that these papers will be accepted in current form in a peer reviewed scientific journal.

        But to your point about trade secrets: I don’t think trade secrets would help IH much. Here is what WIPO states about a disadvantage of trade secrets versus patents: “If the secret is embodied in an innovative product, others may be able to inspect it, dissect it and analyze it (i.e. “reverse engineer” it) and discover the secret and be thereafter entitled to use it. Trade secret protection of an invention in fact does not provide the exclusive right to exclude third parties from making commercial use of it. Only patents and utility models can provide this type of protection.”

        This and the ECW post about the rejection of Rossi’s patent which specifically call out for a scientific basis for NI-H LENR are the basis for my opinions. I also disagree with about commericalization as the only road to acceptance. If Rossi had truly allowed an independent scientific body to test the his E-Cat we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

        • MasterBlaster7

          Well, for starters, Fleishman and Pons truly allowed an independent scientific body (many actually) to test their experiment…see what that got them? A little guidance with something this complex and fragile, I think, is acceptable.

          Yes, under most circumstances a utility or design patent is better to have than a trade secret. However, cold fusion is a unique circumstance. There is a special “umbrella” rule baring cold fusion at the USPTO. What Rossi is doing is applying for patents while proceeding under trade secret. Now, if Rossi is commercially successful (under trade secret)…and the USPTO is forced to lift the cold fusion ban…then the patents should be granted and work retroactively from the application date. Rossi’s secrets will be available to the world for experimental testing and he will have patent protection on the IH commercial product.

          Rossi isn’t the only one doing this. Jet energy is a good example. Michael Schwarz is a hard core MIT cold fusion experimenter. He has done hundreds of experiments in this area and he is also applying for (and being rejected) patents in the area. He is not pushing very hard with a commercial product (with his NANOR). I think he wants to sit on his patents and license them out once a company like Brillouin or IH has a comercial success.

          But, here is a more interesting question. If the USPTO cold fusion ban is lifted and Rossi et. all are granted all their (still secret) retroactive patents….what if there is conflict? What if there is something crucial in Rossi’s e-cat that, say, Michael Schwarz patented first? That is what keeps me up at night.

          • LuFong

            From my understanding, you cannot patent a natural process, e.g. cold fusion. You can patent a device that relies on a natural process but that natural process has to be accepted in the peer reviewed scientific literature or be a commonly observed natural event. Evidently there is currently no peer-reviewed scientific evidence for Ni-H cold fusion of the type Rossi is referencing in his patent so the the patent examiner has rejected the patent. See http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/09/28/rossi-fights-for-his-patent-more-from-e-cat-patent-amendment/ for the actual patent examiner response which I hope I am correctly paraphrasing.

            If the Lugano test could pass peer review and be published in a scientific journal I think Rossi would have no problem getting his patent (although the patent may not be a full disclosure or even correct). Similarly if there is a published paper on the theory, Rossi can get his patent. Both are long-shots in my opinion.

  • jousterusa

    Why shouldn’t he? It works. He’s building and selling it. If there ever arises a theory that fully encompasses the phenomena created by the E-Cat, it is far more likely to come from his apparent foe, Randell Mills, who has been unstinting in his criticism of Rossi and the science of LENR but has fallen far behind in commercializing his gear using the power of the hydrino. It would be very surprising to me if the two devices did not actually rely on the same processes for creating energy, an idea that would horrify Mills and amuse Rossi, I’m sure!

    • Andreas Moraitis

      If it should really turn out that the “Rossi effect” is based on hydrinos, Mills would get the Nobel Prize as a compensation. Fair enough.

      • MasterBlaster7

        I don’t think that any of these commercial guys have a theory nailed down. My money is on Storms or Hagelstein. However, exacting data, from the commercial guys, given to Storms and Hagelstein, would really help.

    • tlp

      Mills SunCell may soon kill the E-Cat, though I hope that both will succeed.

  • Ophelia Rump

    The Gullström theory is quantum, if I am not mistaken the Rossi theory is not.

    My understanding is that Rossi has said that he already believed the effect could be described either way.
    Theories can be narrow while their subject is far wider, they can overlap and cover unique ground while describing the same effect. These are exciting times.