The Conspiracy Needed for E-Cat Fraud (Donk970)

This comment was originally submitted by Donk970 on this thread.

What cracks me up about the claims being made by the skeptics at this point is that the conspiracy that is necessary to support the claim of fraud for this length of time is so far reaching and involves so many people and organizations and requires such complete incompetence/dishonesty in both the scientists doing tests and the investors that it’s ridiculous. It’s far easier to believe that the E-Cat is just what it claims to be.

  • Omega Z

    You need a starting point.
    No one thinks The Widom Larson theory is correct.
    Just a place to jump off from.

  • Electro

    I don’t know where the comment regarding a systematic error whem using triacs in delta configuration was made, but the folling can be said :

    Connecting equipment to a three phase system can be done in either a star or a delta configuration. A star configuration is normally used to connect high power demanding equipment, a delta conncection for less power demanding equipment. To control the power you can use triacs. Triacs can be used to control power to equipment in a star, delta or single line system. Because triacs switch the power on somewhere in the mains cycle, the voltage over the load an the current through the load change abruptly. This is always the case when firing triacs in the mains cycle and has nothing to do with a star, delta or single line connection. Due to these sudden changes harmonics in the load current exist. These harmonics are mulitples of the line frequency (60 Hz in the USA, 50 Hz in Europe). Due to these harmonics some simple power meters will yield an incorrect measured power value (systematic error). However the meters used in the test measure the harmonic currents, take them into account (for all three connections of the delta) and calculate the correct power. So in my opinion there where no systematic errors in the power measurement.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Can you demonstrate a device which fools a normal power meter using such high frequency trick?

    • Gerrit

      I wonder why they only talk about this without showing actual proof in form of a device.

      If it was so easy to trick power meters everyone would be doing it at home to cheat on the facilities providing the electricity.

      • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

        you make a very good point.

        moreover there is two powermetter and power can only be transmitted at the frequency of the input voltage… unless the main socket is tweaked with hidden harmonics, there is no possibility that any triac help any energy to escape the eye of the powermeter plugend on the main.

        for the one after the controlbox, it is more chalenging but modern (and old galvanometer based) powermeter have no problem with triacs, or any realistic power electronics.

        • Omega Z

          And the report stated that both meters correlated. So even the 1 downstream was correct.

  • Mark Szl

    Oops missed top part of last post. Here is the rest.

    GoatGuy on next big futures site commenting about tests.

    Please don’t be too offended, Alain, but I think you’re missing something. Do try to read some of the other comments here. Especially ones regarding the use of TRIACs to feed power from a 3-phase commercial power supply to the test setup. Especially that. The translucent nature of both fused quartz (prior incarnation of the HotCat) and sintered alumina … is also very likely implicated in changing the color temperature of the detected infrared. It is important.

    And of course, if it all works so swimmingly well, then do the inert-gas working-fluid mass calorimetry. Could be set up in with a few days of fiddling around as a practicing physics engineer. Very low cost. Serves to prove that the IR and “convection” numbers are actually meaningful. But remember – given those TRIACs and the likelihood that they’re actually working quite well to obfuscate the actual power fed to the test setup – well, the test apparatus should have a simple resistive bolometer and analog four quadrant multiplier, with subsequent integrator … to get a real sense of the highly non-linear power that is being fed to the device.

    • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

      as usual making things complicated.
      you dont fool a powermetter correctly installed like that and triacs are normal in power electronics… it fools only incompetent commentators.

      if 2000W of heat are smuggled as HF aboce PCE830 bandwidth (see the sampling and bandwidth), the instruments around would get crazy. moreover they checked HF. end of the story, be serious.

      about alumina, one simple questi is that whatever is the material and it’s emissivity,
      the reactor was more bright, with less power when loaded with the powder than when empty, and sure COP is not below 1, or we have to invent new physics.

      end of the story, back on earth.

      add to that that LENr is a scientifically replicated phenomenon, and why have anyone to call for conspiracy when there is a simple and clear answer : it works, as science predicted!

      time to be serious, end of the game.

      • LCD

        Well said bravo. Oh and the isotopic shifts, how did he do that? It’s just so much at this point.

        • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

          many point. the measurement were not done extensively, no statistic.
          maybe there is much variation amon grains, between surface and bulk…
          not sure the isotopic shift is important or if it is simply an anecdotal reaction.

          about the surprise of that reaction, it is not so shocking compared to Iwamura kind of result and some others that Ed Storms reviewed in his books…

          transmutation seems to be caused by two phenomenon.

          merging of an even number of hydrogen atoms (including the electron), reaching a stable element.
          and in some case fusion+fission sequence.

          Ed Storms propose an interesting theory for those hevy elements transmutation , that an heavy element alone inside an hydroton chaine, absorb 1/2/3 pairs of hydrogen around, probably in a symmetric way.

          he notice a preference for stable istotopes… why? anyway good news for nuclear remediation!

          • LCD

            Whatever it is it strongly mediates dangerous radiation and the only way that can happen that doesn’t create too much new physics as far as I can tell is if it involves many bodies in the complete reaction. Fission would not require that so I don’t currently “like“ any theory that requires that. But in not hell bent on sticking to that.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Where did they say that they checked HF? And could not a weak HF signal trouble the meters as well? I’m no expert so I basically tend to assume that the testers knew what they did. However, I would be grateful for every argument that ‘hardens’ this view.

        • Frechette

          Read page 5 and look at Fig 5 on page 6 of the report.

          It states “We also verified that all the harmonics of the waveforms input to the system were amply included in the range measurable by the PCE’s Figure 5” . On Figure 5 it states clearly that they included up to 20 harmonics since the power in the higher harmonics was negligible.

          What HF are you suggesting they should have checked? I hope you’re not talking about up in the RF frequency range like maybe microwaves which someone suggested after the first report came out last year.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            I did not mean the harmonics of the electrical input. Instead of that, I mainly thought of a signal that comes from the reactor itself. As is known, LENR reactions can produce strong magnetic fields, which should be able to induce a voltage in the heating coils, if they were pulsating. Such signals could have a frequency that lies beyond the limit of the meter. One would have to know if the model they were using could have been influenced by that.

            Another point is that they mention some mysterious “electromagnetic pulses”:

            “The heat generating process is initiated by heat from resistor coils around the reactor tube. In addition, the resistor coils are fed with some specific electromagnetic pulses.” (p. 1)

            To me, this does not sound as if they mean the output of the triac. Otherwise they would not have used the formulation “in addition”. It could be possible that the control box produces a HF signal with a “secret waveform”, which has been subject of speculation in the past.

            Nevertheless, I’m relatively relaxed about these hypothetical sources of error since there was a second meter before the control box. One would have to check, though, if the readings of both meters were consistent over the whole period.

            • Frechette

              The power analyzers PCE 830 that were used are digital instruments. With such instruments it is common practice that the input signals to be measured are sampled at a frequency higher than the Nyquist rate. To ensure this the instrument is designed with anti aliasing filter to prevent corruption of the measurements by stray high frequency noise or signals.

              If there were such higher frequency magnetic fields coupled into the heating resistors as you suggest these would be severely attenuated by the anti aliasing filters. Thus they would have little to no effect on the accuracy of the input power measurements. Further more if the E-Cat were to produce such magnetic fields this additional energy would be dissipated as heat in the resistors and would simply show up as an increase in temperature on the surface of the E-Cat. That energy may be thought of as a bonus since it is generated internally by the reaction and not supplied by the external power supply.

      • Mark Szl

        GoatGuy – On NextBigFutures Writes:
        That’s fine, Josh G. With no irony or evil intent, I suggest you look up the word “inscrutable”.

        Until – and as far as I know even the present – Mr. Rossi’s involvement with the E-Cat / Hot-Cat / UniCattaCorn has been to be the “man behind the curtain”¹ that fiddles with the knobs, that has the non-specified “magic” that he uses to “set the operating point”. It is never stated what parameters he empirically assesses to establish the operating point, but it is mysterious, sensitive, and requires his august input. It is inscrutable.

        What I said about “the wiring” goes far beyond “the wiring”. it goes into the very complex and counterintuitive domain of multi-phase power transmission. Electricians, which are versed in this theory (and whom one might suppose both envelop and understand it like the back of their hand) actually know very little about it except for a set of solidly regarded maxims and rules-of-thumb. When it comes to subjects (actually, as simple as) like power factors, current lead, current lag, phase lead, phase lag … most electricians beg off, and defer to electrical engineers.

        Now, this is for bog-standard, world-wide Nicholai Tesla invented 3-phase power transmission. It is used around the world as the optimal transmission system to minimize generator mass, copper use, to minimize transmission line costs, and to simultaneously deliver both 208 and 120 volts to American customers. Europe doesn’t care about the dual voltage thing.

        Yet, when one gets into the remarkable dynamics of 3-phase power delivery, one has to, at some point, deal with 3-phase lagged sinusoidal voltage waveforms, and the idea that “the circuit” might not always consist of 2 wires (in, and out), but shared between three. It is this that makes the convention particularly vexing.

        Now, couple this with what TRIACS do (see the graphic I posted regarding this), and maybe you’ll get an inkling of the real-time, microsecond-to-microsecond scale of the complexity of this conceptually simple system. Until two TRIACS fire during the same active-part of their cycle, there can be no conduction. There is no “conduction loop”. Things get less complex when 3 of them fire within the same conduction cycle, but this isn’t necessary to analyze: it reduces to a one-in-one-out node problem.

        The point I was trying to show (apparently unsuccessfully) was that right at the point (60° lagged from zero-crossing transition) where loop conduction occurs, the voltages are high, and the potential for current flow is equally high. The system essentially doesn’t have a smooth rise from “zero voltage = zero current at zero lag” to “a lot of voltage, at all lag angles < 60° have no loop, so the voltage on the leg rises, but has no connection, and current is zero". It is a conceptually strange condition.

        But there is a cool analogy that you'll get, that makes it clear.

        Know that thing called a "2 way double switch"? You know, a double switch in a house, one at the top of the stairs, the other at the bottom. No matter which way the switches are positioned, if they're both the SAME direction, the lights are off. When they're different, the lights go on. Very convenient.

        Now, imagine a couple of kids, one at the top, the other at the bottom. They're flipping the switches rapidly at random. Sometimes the lights come on, and sometimes they don't. Since the logic-table possibilities table is so even [UU, DD] = off, [UD, DU = on], … the lights are on about 50% of the time. 4 possibilities, and evenly deivided between on on and off. Now … what happens if one kid just pushes her switch to "UP", and never changes it?

         Well, its easy enough… there are only 2 cases left: UU = off and UD = on. 2 outcomes, and 2 possibilities. Even probability. Again, the light is on about 50% of the time.

        Now, imagine the lagged trigger time on the 3 phase current. Essentially, it always takes at least 2 legs "in conduction" at the same time to complete the circuit, and for current to flow. A single wire, triggered (at high voltage) but unconnected to any other wire cannot find a sink for its electrons. No current.

        When there's No Current, there's No Power.

        This is what's at the center of my argument. That the complex system (which is a trigonometric system, at the core of 3-phase power conduction depends on there being 2 or 3 phases simultaneously conducting in order for current to flow. In order for power to be delivered. And per the tabular results of an exhaustive (100 million iteration!) analysis, just as predicted, below 60° lag, there is no conduction. Above 60°, conduction begins, and the amount of voltage/power flow is substantial for even tiny changes in LAG-phase angle change.

        That's my point. (and ultimately it results in metrology errors because of the anomalous magnitude and the extraordinarily short time-frame over which the anisotropy is measured.)

        • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

          don’t complicate the problem.
          everydays engineer use them of thing even more complicate than triacs, like phase compensators, PWM controllers.
          even when there is really HF than can trouble the meter experts know how to filter it, at least to save their telephone.

          triphase and triacs is not complicated today… it is basic.

          this is non issue. don’t be so gullible with salesmen of denial.

          I imagine that the question on alumina, which is not my domain, will make laugh a calorimetrician, as much as this make me laugh.

      • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

        just for those who cannot read the specification of PCE830 you can read up to harmonic 100, and the bandwidth in many kHz.

        this is good to fool mom and pop.

    • Frechette

      According to the report there was an energy balance performed prior to the fuel having been charged into the reactor. That balance showed that the power going into the heating resistors was equal to the power measured with the IR cameras. If this so called “non linear” power was at play the error should have shown up before the test even started. It did not.
      Incidentally what is the definition of non linear power? There are such things as non linear devices but non linear power is no where defined. Even the TRIAC is not a non linear device. More precisely it’s referred to as a piecewise linear device. So what’s this non linear power any how? Maybe just a red herring thrown up by the desperate skeptics?

  • Mark Szl

    The most recent criticism is about a systematic error in all the tests because of the use of a TRIAC in DELTA configuration because of it’s nonlinearity. Also, fraud by Rossi spiking the ecat with certain form of lithium to indicate a nuclear reaction. The first one i would like someone to address. The second is hard to show in retrospect.

    • Andre Blum

      You make many people very happy with this post. Please have them provide details about the TRIAC in DELTA, an estimation of its maximum achievable COP, and a guarantee that our electricity company’s power meter is equally fooled. (“step 3: profit!”)

  • Alan DeAngelis

    What I like about the E-Cat is that it’s one of the few things in this world that isn’t a scam.

  • Curbina

    My thoughts exactly, with the agravant that the only supporting evidence is “that it’s not possible for the e-cat to be true”.

    • Gerrit

      The other supporting evidence is “I know Rossi is a scammer, I just know it”

      • Frechette

        I suppose the scientists and engineers at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries are also scam artists. They have invented a method of remediating nuclear waste by transmutation with a device based on LENR. Specifically tritium in water from the Fukushima accident site. Standard methods are expensive and difficult. The Japanese Patent Office has granted them a patent this year. Maybe the Japanese patent examiners are also scam artists working hand in hand with Rossi.