IH Working on Micro-Scale E-Cats?

Someone asked yesterday here if I was on vacation. No, I am still here, watching and waiting along with everyone else.

It seems like the LENR world has almost ground to a standstill as we wait for the E-Cat report to be released. Andrea Rossi himself has talked about having ‘exponential anxiety’ waiting for the release of the report, and does not seem to have knowledge of when the report will be published, although today he said, “I expect it anytime.”

Rossi has said that he will get to read the report 3-4 days in advance of the publication, but has given no indication of whether he has received it yet. I’m not expecting him to announce he has read it before the rest of the world sees it, but I suppose he might drop a clue.

Yesterday there were some intriguing responses from Rossi that gave an indication that IH may be looking into micro -scale E-Cats. There were three questions asked by Koen Vandewalle, each receiving a one word answer from Rossi.

1. Can we expect that it will be possible to initiate one single Rossi-Effect-reaction on the time you want it to occur and on the place you choose, e.g: one specific nickel “grain” ? A: Yes
2. Can it, if former is positive, be managed to generate a predefined amount of excess energy ?
I mean scientifically, not commercially profitable or exploitable. A: Yes
3. Is this part of your R&D ? A: Yes

It’s tantalizing stuff, but I think we’re unlikely to hear much more about it in the near future. We really have no idea what the status of R&D is at Industrial heat, except for little snippets like this that Rossi drops once in a while.

Anyway, right now, the thing on everyone’s minds is the third party report which could conceivably show up any time now (although it could conceivably not show up soon, too). If it’s a convincing report it could have far-reaching implications and repercussions. If the ‘Rossi Effect’ is demonstrated to be robust and reliable, there is no telling what kinds of refinements could be made — and mini E-Cats as implied by Rossi here, might well be one type application that could be developed over time.

  • Omega Z

    Most are talking about looping the E-cat to itself with zero external power. This is actually a possibility once started up.

    The Issue- Aside from needing a boiler/turbine/generator/pumps/ Etc, Etc, It also needs stable energy to power the computerized RF-generating control box(The Achilles heel). Thus, if the E-cat becomes unstable, you no longer have control & you end up with a runaway reaction, melt down & time to order a new E-cat.

    Even tho possible, For reliability & safety issues, It’s just not a good idea. It’s also far from simple & easy.

    Using a properly sized battery rack is totally doable. It would be no different then feeding to & from the grid like all current power plants are arranged.

    As far as doing the battery thing to convince people it works, I wouldn’t bother. They will always find some issue with the test. Regardless how ridiculous their issue is.

  • Justin Church

    Industrial Heat of Research Triangle Park in Raleigh, North Carolina and Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat Technology will not allow Justin Church and Neal Ward to put our micro H-Cat heater on the market FIRST. They will and should beat us to market but let it be known that we are snipping at their toes so they better catch a gear…We just did that is for sure…

    • Fortyniner

      Justin, can you provide any detail about where you are now re. establishing whether there is an energy gain when HHO is burned on a catalyst? Have you done any calorimetry?

  • Heath

    As we are smack dab in the Nano Age, someone will be able miniaturize this effect once it is fully understood and when labs and engineering companies can get their hands on it. The applications are potentially endless.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I think that announcement is slightly premature, Nano is in it’s infancy. It will be be astounding when it grows up.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Nanotech is old. It’s just unemployed chemists who remarketed themselves as nanotechnologists.

  • Heath

    Doing a little digging yesterday, I decided to look for something simple, as in the definition of an LLC (as in Industrial Heat LLC). A Limited Liability Company is typically a collaboration of companies or investors. When you stand back and look at it this way, IH is not a corporation as I had been thinking–most likely many companies in Tom Darden’s vast web of connections. This is why IH does not have a website (each company involved already has their own). It is a team of investors and corporation developing this tech. This is also why IH is located in an office at Cherokee and has no factory, but one of the involved companies does and this is where Rossi is working. Another member company is likely working on the manufacturing roll out of the e-cat. And another that specializes in distribution working on that aspect. And, as we have read, still another partner that specializes in jet engines is looking at developing the e-cat for this purpose (GE, Boeing, etc.). Rossi’ steam is likely made of engineers from these member companies and truly is looking at many ways to utilize the e-cat’s excess heat according to that member company’s specialty. For me, this is why it is so secretive and why things seemed chaotic in 2012 and 2013 as this group was figuring out the way forward with something so big, and why Rossi has backtracked on some things. As for this test, I think the argument that Rossi would have to give should performance not be as consistent or high as expected, is the R&D way forward–how to work through these remaining issues or design. Remember, a group of investors or companies under the umbrella name Industrial Heat LLC own the rights to this tech and are all waiting for this test because once the core tech (the reactor) is proven to be consistently reliable, they can run with the applications in many different ways. This of course is only my way of trying to make sense of things that have not thus far made much sense. If I am thinking on this in the right direction, however, IH is not a small company with 11-20 million in investments, it is much much bigger because of the member companies that comprise it.

    • mytakeis

      I add my enthusiasm to the logic of your conjecture!

    • Ophelia Rump

      You have outlined quite a lot. This is a very interesting take on the subject.

    • Fortyniner

      That seems to be a reasonable picture of how things may be arranged behind the scenes. I would take slight issue with “Remember, a group of investors or companies…. are all waiting for this test” however. Rossi’s R&D group will have been testing various designs of reactor developed after the prototype was handed over for the endurance test, and may well have found more efficient systems since then.

      In any case they will have amassed a pile of operational data and will be completely familiar with the capabilities of all variants, so the test results are unlikely to hold any surprises for them or their investors. The value of the ‘third party’ tests will be in their independence, and in the theoretical work that will derive from fuel analyses, rather than in the output measurements per se.

  • dickyaesta

    And what about MICRO FUSION ENERGY (MFE) for all those confusing names like lanr, lenr, cold fusion etc.

    I pass almost everyday a industrial building with a big hangar like door, here, with the intriguing name Micro Fusio Catalan, which seems to have nothing to do with anything. It seems more like a coverup industry for some security organisation, as nothing seems to happen ever, no trucks, no cars, but only meticously kept gardens. The name seems to fit perfectly for what we now know of lenr/cold fusion, thanks to the spies for doing something right!

    • Ophelia Rump

      Welcome to Microfusion Energy

      http://www.microfusionenergy.com/

      The Microfusion Energy Automation Group provides project development services for investment-grade projects in BIOENERGY, POWER, and PULP & PAPER industries.

      By utilizing resources across the group, Microfusion Energy is able to bring broad in-depth expertise to both modernization and new process projects. The Microfusion Energy core team of senior project personnel and consultants have the skill and experience in business, process control applications, process knowledge and project execution to insure our clients the maximum return on investments.

      • dickyaesta

        I did separate the three words instead of fusing them (), but then you are right. I did google it, before posting, but it was late and I wasn’t really reading, But apart from this, I still like the name very much for the whole process and it should have priority over a mere name of a business. The only way this can come about, is, if lots of people vote for it. So, Orphelia maybe an Up vote, might be more in place than a correct search!

        • Ophelia Rump

          Don’t feel bad, I was considering throwing this into the mix for a little dash of flavor: V8 V-Fusion® + Energy

          But it does explain why they keep the place looking so well gardened.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    If it could be done with just a grain, the science will take off (if it hasn’t already at IH). All sorts of spectral analysis with different isotopes could be performed. Mountains of data could be generated. For example CR-39 studies:
    http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8039298

    • Alan DeAngelis

      PS
      I would like to see what happens when the grain is irradiated with infrared light that corresponds to the stretching frequency of the nickel hydride bond (what ever that frequency is).

  • Star_A_Star

    Every day I check for the 2nd 3rd party report. The 1st convinced me anyway. There is no conspiracy of academics out to support Rossi, this is utterly ludicrous. But there is a collusion of interests and a broken system where research/science and copyright/commerce clash, and a mighty battle awaits…

    Unless there is a redistributive tax on sales, say 30%, largely given to all citizens equally on disruptive automation/3Dprinting/robotics/assemblers we will face a cyberfeudal system with the corporate class owning and controlling over 90% of the mechanism of production.

    But that’s another story. Right now we are on the verge of a history breaking event. The Middle East and Putin will tremble. Piantelli, Focardi and Rossi will emerge as saviours from runaway global warming and centralized energy dependency, and provide a huge boost for travel on the planet and off it. Thank you Italy! Thank you Andrea for all those endless materials experiments and happy explosions! Thank you all those academics whose names will shortly appear on the 3rd party independent report, and thank you all those within the universities that did not clamp down on academic independence and free thought.

    On a final note, it will be curious to see what the response of Dick Smith will be to the report!

    • Colibric41AC

      exxon chevron bp total etc, are not russian or from middle east

  • Frost*

    I wish he would apply this to the e-cat story, Cox’s influence would be quite a boon if he got involved.

    http://www.apolloschildren.com/blog-item.php?id=27

  • kdk

    I wonder if it’s possible or desirable to kickstart the reactions on the small scale through focused natural light.

  • Ophelia Rump

    e-kittens

  • Private Citizen

    With all of the R&D, why not demonstrate a self-looped e-cat? Wouldn’t that obviate doubts about excess energy once and for all? Please do, Eng. Rossi.

    Or perhaps the COP of this nuclear/quantum reaction is too low to self-loop in the current reactors?

    • Nicholas

      dude that is so beyond capability, even if an e-cat produced electricity rather than heat, which it doesn’t, you’d have to somehow regulate the flow back in at the right voltage and amperage. If this sounds easy, its not, no modern power station is equipped to ‘self-loop’. power stations use grid power for their systems and then pump the output back into the grid to keep everything regulated. its simply an impossible task, you’d at the very least need a system of batteries or large capacitors to store energy to regulate, and that actually makes it less clear, rather than simple calorimetry.

      COP has nothing to do with self-looping. the ecat is not a perpetual motion machine, its a complicated piece of mechanical hardware. it requires carefully tuned inputs. the outputs of the e cat are heat, and even if attached to some kind of stirling engine and alternator, the outputs (from reports) fluctuate quite a bit.

      calorimetry on a device with a COP of 6 or more is piss easy however, its obvious to a layman that its producing excess heat at that scale. just by standing next to it.

      • ronzonni

        The ecat makes heat, and according to the tests, lots of it. It also requires heat to run or to control. I don’t think Rossi has been completely clear on which or on how. But it’s definitely heat which is needed and not electricity. We know that because the electricity put into the ecat goes to a heater. Rossi has been very clear about that from the start. Also Rossi has talked about running ecats using natural gas as a heat source.

        In theory at least, there would be no reason why heat from the ecat’s output could not be fed back to wherever it’s needed within the ecat. You could do this with a heat exchanger. And if sensitive control of the amount of heat is needed, you could do that by using a control system, for example one from National Instruments, to adjust the flow through the heat exchanger automatically, based on the readings of temperature sensors inside the ecat.

        So there seems to be no insurmountable barrier to “looping” an ecat. As any heat or energy engineer will tell you, “heat is heat”. The source whether electrical, gas or the ecat itself does not matter.

        • Albert D. Kallal

          This issue not be explained or dealt with in detail. As
          noted, with true self looping, then the issue of COP goes out the window.

          It should be noted that in the slim test reports we seen,
          the self looping mode is NOT an extended period of time, but about 2 minutes of
          feeding energy (heat) in, and then running for 4 minutes without adding heat.

          It really not quite clear why this additional “kick” of heat energy is required for such operation. I mean if the device starts producing heat, why then is additional heat “kicks” required every 4 minutes?

          One can speculate that part of this is the design centered
          on being able to control the system. So if you turn off the heat, then the
          reaction stops. Without this setup, then the instant you start the reaction, it would get hotter and hotter and melt everything and would have no reason to
          stop.

          This tells me that MUCH more design work is required to
          build a true self looping system. And it not clear how/why the reaction stops (in other words, how do they stop the reactor). In fact, it seems that the gas pressure in the vessel is the key. So heat goes up, reaction starts and as pressure increases then some value or system REDUCES pressure – much like some kind of pop off value. In this case however the pop off does not release gas, but does release gas pressure. Now with reduced gas pressure the reaction slows and eventually that pop off (piston) can return gas to original (starting pressure). We now ready
          for another cycle in which we KICK in that energy (heat) for 2 minutes, and then we back again to the 4 minutes of self sustain.

          The reason why the above is being done is there is no other practical way to control such a reaction. It would be REALLY cool if some
          SUPER adjustable piston type value that could monitor the heat output in real time and thus constantly adjust pressure to keep the reaction going. Since we cannot (practically) do this, we simply jump start the reaction, let it go until it really starts heating things up. Then the expansion valve pops, and the reaction then starts to slow down (stop) and we ready for another 4 minute cycle. And if there not some “allowable” expansion that stops the reaction, then clearly just turning off the input heat STOPS this reaction and again this done due to the “only” practical way to turn on and off the reaction. Designs that once heat starts this reaction and it runs on it own would NOT work, since the MAJOR issue becomes how to stop the device! In other words such a device without an off switch is the issue. In fact MOST important engineering issue thus forces one to adopt a design that MUST require some input heat, and this gives a means to control and turn off the device. So you “design” something that MUST have input to run since no other practical alterative exists.

          The above much suggests that next gen LENR reactors will
          have HUGE energy outputs – outputs that EASY rival commercial nuclear reactors. However this ill ONLY occur AFTER we “really” learn how to control this reaction. Right now we simply preventing a melt down in a simple way since a simple way are the only choice we have.

          We cannot allow the system to melt or it simply stops
          working. Next gen LENR reactors will not have this limitation – these reactions will produce MASSIVE amounts of heat – in fact such reactors will EASY be plug-in replacements for the existing nuclear and even coal fired plants. And LENR will achieve this huge output of energy without pollution or waste. So once this control issue is solved then doors will blow wide open for some really VERY heavy duty LENAR
          reactors – large and VERY powerful they will become.

          In fact the enginerring issue or problem (so far) is not the possiblity of self loopoing, but how to desing a system that would NOT require that addtional heat input. Also KEY here is that in addtion to heat, there are repeated reports of an electro magnetic (radio) stimulation required
          at a given frequency. It is not know if this EM stimulation is required during the self loop cycle (the 4 minute cycle). So is this Em stimulation 100% separate from the heater? It is rather possible that the same element that provides heat is also the EM stimulation system for the metal lattice.

          The reason why this issue of EM stimulation at a given frequency
          is important then this suggests that JUST recycling heat output would not be sufficient to sustain the reaction. So this EM stimulation to “shake” the metal lattice some given frequency is also required for the reaction (or at least to have a controllable one and one with commercial heat output).

          So while LENR certainly been show to work without this EM
          stimulation at some optional frequency, Rossi and others have stated and that such EM stimulation is used to enhance output of the device and is key for the large heat outputs observed.

          So the remaining question is how much energy is used or
          required by this EM stimulation and MORE important is do the Ecat in self loop mode continue to require or receive this EM stimulation during that self loop phase?

          Based on reports and claims, it seems that just heat
          input ALONE is not sufficient for the ecat, you also need that EM stimulation.

          • Omega Z

            Last reported by Rossi was 25% On / 75% Off.
            Note the percentage is just an average. Actual time on/off is variable. It could self sustain for minutes or hours.

        • Omega Z

          ronzonni
          To some degree, Rossi is doing that. The effect is “activated” by heat. With the 2 stage mouse/cat, the Mouse/drive provides the heat to activate the Cat/reactor.

          Electricity is still required even if the heat is provided by gas. The Control panel draws about 100/110 watts. This also provides the RF frequency or EM field used in the control once the E-cat is activated.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I think they have had their fill of trying to convince skeptics.
      I do not think there will be a shortage of customers.
      IH should maintain their focus on providing the best core product possible and let the engineers of the world fit it to the applications of the world.

      • Private Citizen

        If the device puts out 600-1000C degree steam in excess of COP 6 as advertised, it would be absolutely trivial to hook up a small off-the-shelf steam generator (or even Sterling generator). Should be possible in a mater of hours, give a steam hose is already the output of the e-Cat.

        Beyond convincing skeptics, this simple configuration would be history’s first demonstration of a self-sustaining LENR device capable of basically infinite COP when chained together. But hey, why bother?

        The bookend of pathoskepticism is incurious credulity.

        • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

          not so simple .
          from TPR1 there is some reason to fear that the stability of e-cat is not so good at high COP.
          thus making steam and throttling the reactor may be an engineer nightmare. It will work but it will be hard, thus it will take time.

  • gdaigle

    We tend to focus upon the large-scale applications of the E-Cat and forego discussion of the smallest scale applications, even down to a grain-scale. Power for microcircuitry in cold, dark environments would be handy for many applications, especially if it can be initiated, extinguished, and reinitiated.

    • Ophelia Rump

      LENR Mittens and socks!

      • Omega Z

        Winter is getting close.
        I’ll take a couple pair of each.
        However, I think it’s going to take a few more weeks of R&D before they are ready for market.
        🙂

  • wineebuff

    The market for home ecats is infinite

    • Omega Z

      But the Home Market is barely 1/3rd of our energy use.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I think this indicates an interest in engineering single reaction sites, and all the potentials which go with that.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Like an implanted neurostimulator to make people buy stuff that they don’t need.