Solar Hydrogen Trends team visits SRI, McKubrev [Update: Chief Scientist's Comments on Reactions]

There’s an article on Peswiki.com that reports that the Solar Hydrogen Trends team recently visited an investors conference at nonprofit research center SRI International in Menlo Park, California. While they were there they spent some time with Michael McKubre, director of SRI’s Energy Research Center. Solar Hydrogen Trends claim to have developed a method of producing large amounts of hydrogen from oxygen through an undisclosed system of physical and chemical processes that act on hydrogen bonds.

In an email to PESN’s Sterling Allan, SHT presidetJack Aganyan reports that he presented test results to McKubre for consideration. McKubre told Sterling Allan why at present he is not able to carry out testing of the SHT system which they claim produces large quantities of hydrogen very cheaply. The SHT team wants to use a large facility to test their reactors to handle the flow rate of hydrogen that they claim, but have had a difficult time securing a premises where they can do this. McKubre wrote the following to Allan:

Until I see the machine in operation and have a chance to run at least zero’th level checks, there is very little I can or should contribute publicly. I liked the guys. They seem honest and knowledgeable but acknowledge that they are concealing elements of the chemical reactions that occur inside the box. This is their right, and obviously if the third party tests are valid (as they seem to be) then something is happening well beyond chemistry. But I do not want to give the impression of “selling a pig in a poke” – especially a “poke” (box) I have not seen and watched operate.

As a clarification to your story SRI does have the capability of handling their hydrogen production at present rates but not at our Menlo Park (urban) facility. What they propose seems far more sensible at this point. Run a downscaled (or throttled) unit into a fuel cell and quantify the electricity out. This would immediately demonstrate practicality. Hydrogen is a bit like Excess Heat — hard to see, hard to store, and in the case of H2, potentially hazardous.

SRI has stringent policies about what kinds of research projects they can get involved in, and Mike McKubre will not enter into any testing agreement that does not meet those standards. It seems that SHT are looking for ways to gain credibility so they can raise funds — so far there are many unanswered questions. Perhaps the fuel cell idea that McKubre talks about would be a good way for them to demonstrate the amount of energy they claim to be producing from their system.

UPDATE: Here’s a link to a document in which CEO, founder and Chief Scientist Konstantin Balakiryan comments on the mechanisms he claims are behind the SHT reaction. I don’t think these are new statements to followers here, but I think it’s useful to have them all in one place.
http://kochari.info/2014/05/07/solar-hydrogen-trends-inc-s-chief-scientist-konstantin-balakiryan-reveals-the-secrets-of-the-hydrogen-reactor-symphony-7a/

  • jousterusa

    As I noted before, Dr. Howard Phillips demonstrated a hydrogen generator that outputs 30 gallons of hydrogen per minute in a talk at my HHO Games Green Technology Expo at the Museum of Science & Industry in Tampa in January. That generator is limited only by the amount of hydrogen it can contain, and is almost infinitely scaleable. There is info about it at hhogames.com. There is no fundraising going on there, only a search for compatible partners who want to develop the device for commercial use. I will be happy to connect interested people to Dr. Phillips if you will contact me at [email protected], using the Subject header )in all caps) HHO GAMES.

    • http://kochari.info/ mind2matter2reality

      jousterusa,

      Here is a quote from the website you refer to above regarding the hydrogen generator you are advertising.

      “As Dr. Phillips and Patrick Gaddy pointed out, the water necessary to fuel the
      generator can come from the ocean, and the carbon catalyst is abundant and
      cheap. While a substantial quantity of aluminum powder or shavings would be
      required to fuel it, too, the cost would be far less than the conventional cost
      of fueling such a tanker.”

      “Substantial quantity of aluminum powder or shavings would be
      required to fuel it,….”

      It’s no wonder you don’t mention this, any of the power requirements, or the efficiency of the reactor.

      What we have here is deceptive advertising.

      In comparison the Symphony 7A reactor from Solar Hydrogen Trends developed by Dr. Konstantine Balakiryan produces 950 gallons of hydrogen per minute at 97% purity from tap water and 415 watts of input electricity at 150,000% efficiency.

      They have test reports from reputable 3rd party labs attesting to this fact.

      SolarHy has experimented with HHO technology years ago and abandoned it when it developed the Symphony class reactor technology with over-unity performance.

      HHO is yesterday’s technology,

      Symphony reactor is the technology of the future

      Read all about it at:
      http://kochari.info/

  • Broncobet

    Good point.

  • Heath

    We’ve discussed removing the word nuclear from LENR, but perhaps we should request that Solar Hydrogen Trends Incorporated think about its acronym. SHTI or SHT is something I can’t help interpreting in my head as not a good bet. I am interested in their results and 3rd party verification, but good God….

    • http://kochari.info/ mind2matter2reality

      Heath,

      “SHTI or SHT is something I can’t help interpreting in my head as not a good bet”.

      Perhaps you should get your head checked. The associations people make tell more about them than about the things that they make the associations on.
      In my head the interpretation of your comment is that you are a juvenile and immature person with a very narrow mind who is stuck on external perceptions rather than the important content. You would probably skip reading a valuable book just because you didn’t like the title.
      Solar Hydrogen Trends is NOT going to change it’s name or the abbreviation that people have assigned to the name.
      Those who have issues with the current abbreviation can use one of these abbreviations which are just as valid.
      SoHy
      SoHyT
      SoHyTrInc
      SoHyTrends
      Take your pick.
      If you are a person of good character you will pick the last one to show that you have good thoughts and positive interpretations in your head.
      Your thoughts are a reflection of your essence and being. Put some effort into developing a good personal philosophy. It will be well worth the effort.

  • Christopher Calder

    “In fact the only thing holding them back right now is raising
    capital – this technology is in the infant stage” —- If their COP is true, it is ready for production with minor modifications to make the assembly line move quicker. My suspicion is that this device is relatively simple in construction. It would have to be given that the basic discovery was “accidental.” I have emailed Ted Turner, Warren Buffett, George Soros, and Carlos Slim about this development. If you know any other billionaires, I would suggest you email them.

    • mind2matter2reality

      Rather than having the existing millionaires and billionaires get involved and get even richer I would prefer to see many ordinary people invest in the technology and become rich.
      SHT and I are exploring different ideas on making the opportunities available to a larger group of individuals. Hopefully we will have something to present soon.

  • Christopher Calder

    I generally agree with you. Of course, argon is an atmospheric gas and gets into everything. It depends how much is there. They give a cost estimate of production, which is very low and would suggest no additional chemicals used which would drive up the cost. New companies do exaggerate at times. As an example, over time I began to doubt the math of the people at Los Alamos who developed the Green Freedom synthetic fuel process. They want to turn atmospheric CO2 into gasoline, but they mentioned that there would be less profit for the manufacturers than producing oil based gasoline. Thus, I doubted their business math. I think they low-balled costs. The SHT people seem honest and are saying all the right things. Their pattern of behavior does not fit the profile of a scam. That said, we want all the answers before we pop the cork.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      As updated, SHT HAS spoken about consumables, and they been VERY forth coming:

      In Symphony 7A, active metal alloy is involved in the oxidation reaction. However, the amount of formed oxide for a one hour period is only 2.1%. During that same time, Symphony 7A produces more than 7 kg of hydrogen, and the share of that chemical reaction is only about 189 grams of hydrogen. If all the hydrogen in Symphony 7A reactor was produced by oxidation – reduction reaction, then in one hour we would spend 97.9 % of all active metal alloy, and the cartridge would have to be replaced practically every hour. This could have become the weak point of our hydrogen reactor. However, in Symphony 7A, the cartridge is replaced once a week, and for the model Symphony 7AM, cartridge replacement will take place once every four weeks.”

      So my bad – they have PUBLIC spoken of this issue!

  • Curbina

    Well, that’s exactly what all the fuss is about.

  • Curbina

    Is crowdfunding a viable financing option for them?

  • BroKeeper

    The more safe hydrogen energy generated devices available the better we all will be. I do admire SHT’s contribution to this whether it is LENR related or not. So thank you mind2matter2reality for your loyal defense. My apology for any offense taken. Keep up the good work Bro.

    • mind2matter2reality

      No need for apology BroKeeper.
      We are all in this together independent of our current opinions and beliefs.
      History is being made and we are all part of it no matter which side of the fence we are standing.

  • Christopher Calder

    mind2matter2reality,

    There are rude people on almost all discussion groups. Just ignore them.

    If you are involved in the company, I have a question for you. The Solar Hydrogen Trends standard size reactor produces too much hydrogen for an automobile to use. Have you calculated the wattage input required to run a car sized reactor? If running your large reactor takes about 400 watts, it seems logical that a smaller reactor would use less power which could easily be supplied by an alternator and small battery. It would seem to me that hooking a reactor up to a vehicle with either an internal combustion engine or a fuel cell would be easy and could be accomplished in a matter of months, not years. Comments?

  • Curbina

    Many of us would be delighted to be shown by a respected and independent third party that Solar Hydrogen Trends really has what claims to have. But our skepticism is granted, Mr. Avetisian. You have to be aware that we are 25 years later discussing about if “Cold Fusion” is real or not, and this is a forum where many posters (including me) have been following the saga for all that time, and only a fraction of us is leaning to accept the possibility of LENR really being a breakthrough, while most still doubt it.

    That said, and as well built experiments with minimal and controlled sources of error are what can sway any skepticism, at this point I think that the fuel cell demonstration suggested by Mr. McKubre is really a good compromise of costs vs demostrative efficacy. Better if at some point the cell fuel is looped back to keep the Symphony 7 reactor going. I hope you can find an investor willing to finance such a trial. Perhaps if you design a good protocol, with the help of someone that would know how to minimize potential sources of error, and budget what would it cost to perform it, including the publication of a detailed technical report with all the data to be collected, then set up a crowdfunding initiative, you could get to make the demo that would change the perception. Is not easy, I really think that SHT is in a very complicate situation, in much regards similar to what Andrea Rossi had to undergo these last 5 years.

    Now, on a lighter topic, I know the owners of SHT are not native English speakers (nor do I) but due to the unfortunate resemblance of the SHT acronym to the well known 4 letter word, It would be advisable to perhaps perform a name change to the company?

    My Best Regards.

  • Christopher Calder

    I agree with you about the Rohner/Papp scam. I have an intuitive lie detector test that works pretty well. The Papp people and the other group selling the noble gas engine failed that test. The Solar Hydrogen Trends spokesman, Jack Aganyan, passed my lie detector test 100%. I don’t base my hope of McKubre’s words. I base it on the three positive independent tests which I do not think could be faked with a hidden bottle of hydrogen gas because of space limitations. You cannot store that much hydrogen in a small container. I have not done the math, but I have seen how big the hydrogen bottles are in hydrogen powered cars, and they are very large. So where did all that hydrogen come from? The most logical answer is that they are really telling the truth. I also like the fact they claim the original discovery was completely accidental. They are not full of themselves. Intelligence brings humility.

  • Anon2012_2014

    SHT = unknown money raiser.

    I trust McKubre to find the results. I do not trust SHT.

  • Pierre Ordinaire

    If the claims of SHT are true and reproducible, all the others are like mopeds next to a Rolls-Royce jet turbine.

  • Ronzonni

    Out of curiosity, what is “non-radioactive tritium”? Last I looked, tritium was most definitely radioactive, emitting beta rays, and it had a half life of about 4500 years. While that is not toxic at a distance and does not go through even paper, if ingested in quantity, it most certainly can cause cancer and kill people.

    If Brillouin can make non-radiactive tritium, that will be an amazing accomplishment. And I’d like to buy some, LOL.

    • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

      tritium have a half life of 12 years.
      it is a betta emitter so dangerous only when eaten or breathed

      the dose that is observed in cold fusion is easily detected by very tiny for a living being.

      banana are mode dangerous

  • Private Citizen

    If the marketing genius required to name ones product “SHT” is equal to the engineering genius behind it, well then the validity is beyond question.

    That said, hire MFMP to do the testing in the open.

    • BroKeeper

      And some of us think the acronym “LENR” is a problem?

      • Curbina

        LOL BroKeeper, anyway, the issue with LENR is only about the “N” on it. Frankly I don’t really care too much about the N, but the worry is not mine but from many that would like to take a long distance from the current Nuclear industry.

        • BroKeeper

          √√

    • Curbina

      They called their “product” Symphony 7. SHT is the name of the company. That said, is clearly a very bad choice for a company’s name.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Brown 25 from Uranus Corporation.

        • BroKeeper

          IBM – Itty Bitty Machine Co.

  • GreenWin

    I think BigFeet are “virtual” ETs. They pop in and out of human consciousness just to make the game more interesting. And controversial. It’s also good for ratings. Which is reason for Nike to be shopping a BigFoot endorsement deal.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I wonder if they could make a deal with BloomBox to collaborate on a fusion of the two technologies. They would be a perfect fit. The two products would become one perfect energy source.

    • Omega Z

      The Bloom-box actually has issue’s(Short Life-cycle) & is not very economical.
      Thus it’s limited roll out.
      However, Others are stepping into the field & with competition, maybe they will cure it’s ills & economic shortcomings.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Thank you for the update. The profitability would make it beyond economical. That seems like a great motivator for the Bloom side of a collaboration. The short life cycle sounds worrisome.

        They initially estimated that the units would have a 10-year life as long as the fuel-cell stacks were swapped out twice.

        From what I can find out the problem with the BloomBox is it’s reliance upon Scandia, or scandium oxide Sc2O3

        Global production of scandium is under 2,000 kilograms. Most of the 5,000 kilograms used annually is sourced from Soviet era stockpiles. At $ 2000 a Kilogram this technology has a supply problem.

        • GreenWin

          Excellent suggestion. The S Korean industrial giant Doosan has bought into the American fuel cell market by purchasing ClearEdge. A flow of pure h2 into a ClearEdge microCHP would be a remarkable proof of commercial potential. Doosan is also a player in LENR having bought Italy’s power company Ansaldo Energia, an early supporter of Rossi’s E-Cat.

          http://www.clearedgepower.com/didyouknow/insidethepurecellsystem/

          • Omega Z

            Without backtracking, I do believe ClearEdge is one of the new competitors targeting Bloom Energy. There aim is to deliver on Blooms original promise plus a little more.
            We’ll see what happens.

            They need to fix the issues of stack reliability & make the manufacturing cost improvements to do that. They could end up like Bloom. Spoke to soon.
            However, new people may find new ways & if they accomplish their goals, it would be a good match with SHT. If SHT has what’s claimed.

  • Curbina

    It would be certainly interesting to have this validated as Mr. McKubre suggests. Not holding my breath tho.

    • bachcole

      I have heard the rumor that Mike McKubre does NOT walk on water, but, until I get contradictory evidence, I don’t believe it for a second. If Mike McKubre pronounces SHT to be real or unreal, then for me the issue is resolved. He didn’t make any such pronouncement.

      • Ophelia Rump

        If I understood the subtleties of the language, he has set the ground rules.
        If they have a small scale prototype they can settle the matter easily.

        Could they have built such a thing to industrial scale without using any small scale testing? That would seem like an insanely expensive approach to prototyping, and therefore highly unlikely enough to be a very questionable practice.

        Mike McKubre was wise to set that ground-rule.

        • US_Citizen71

          For those who don’t understand the what is implied. A smaller scale device would limit the ability to hide chemicals other than what they claim is in use. But in their defense it takes what it takes. Transistors didn’t grow larger but smaller, Tesla’s patent for what was essentially a TEG was the size of a very large fire pit, so it is possible that they have built the smallest version of their device that works reliably with the tech that they have.

          I would love for their device to real but the claim of radiation free fission of oxygen into hydrogen is just a bridge too far for me to cross at this time.

          • Ophelia Rump

            If you are correct in the belief that their process is at the current minimum scale, then options are limited.
            1 Find an onsite use for their production.
            2 Find a local customer for their product.
            3 Bring in experts in large scale hydrogen production to perform an independent validation.
            4 Move their plant.

          • bachcole

            I hear you, but we never really know.

  • Christopher Calder

    http://www.ecomotors.com/

    The EcoMotors International two cylinder boxer style engine can run on diesel, gasoline, ammonia, methane, or hydrogen gas. It is very compact and costs less to produce than an ordinary gasoline car engine because it has fewer parts. A big factory is already under construction in China to produce them. The first engine off the line will produce about 360 horsepower. You can power any automobile and most trucks and busses with that amount of horsepower, and the engine has tremendous torque. Smaller EcoMotors engines have already been designed. The EcoMotors engine is so compact that you could easily fit an appropriately sized Solar Hydrogen Trends reactor, which would be smaller than a toaster, a battery, an alternator, and the needed water supply all under the hood of a typical automobile. All the ingredients are there, and at low cost. A fuel cell is probably not needed in this case, but I am sure they would be used eventually, such as the inexpensive Bloom fuel cell. http://www.bloomenergy.com/fuel-cell/energy-server/

    • Omega Z

      Except for being clean, Bloom has never delivered on it’s promise of cheap or economical. Only a few entities use it for claims of green energy.
      With several new players in the field, maybe this will change. One of the bigger issues have been the ceramics not living up to expectations & manufacturing costs haven’t declined as planned.

  • Gerard McEk

    A fuel cell of that capacity is quite expensive and usually requires high purity H2. I would go for a gas adapted petrol motor/generator combination and show humanity that this can run forever with an excess of electricity: OVERUNITY! I do not understand they did not do this already.
    I hope they will succeed.

    • Ivone

      See my comments below.

  • Christopher Calder

    “We are open, transparent, we allow investors to conduct their own control tests. We believe all doubts will be over soon, and we will finally have American investors to be interested in our technology, as it is already happening with Chinese, Indians and Europeans.”

    This is great news. If I won the lottery, I would invest in this company.

    • Asterix

      “…allow investors to conduct their own control tests…”

      Did you get that? Invest, then test. I’d invest in the good Doctor’s surefire win-at-roulette scheme before I’d spend a penny on his “look, I can extract neutrons from oxygen and turn them into hydrogen with my magic box” one.

      • Christopher Calder

        I think they mean potential investors. It does sound too good to be true, but that fact does not mean that it actually is untrue. A 747 is too good to be true, but almost everyone has flown in one.

  • bachcole

    Dear Frank,

    How come I got an email about the comment by rudyswiss . yet I don’t see in on the website?

    Roger

  • rudyswiss .

    Why don’t they just fill a big balloon: if it goes up it must be hydrogen (or He), from the ballast you can calculate the volume, and the time to fill gives you the production rate. All not very accurate but spectacular and not easy to cheat. And measure the temperature to be sure it is not hot air.

    • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

      good idea… even if it explodes.

      • Ivone

        Especially if it explodes. (smiles) That can’t be faked.

        But, more seriously, calculations show that a litre of water converted to hydrogen smoothly over 48 hours, can run a household on an electric generator at 20 kilowatts.

        • Ivone

          This technology, if it exists, ties in very well with Roger Shawyer’s heavy lifting version of the EmDrive, which needs liquid hydrogen to cool the thrusters so that they produce a ton per kilowatt. So if an EmDrive vehicle was to carry a Solar Hydrogen Trends product, a tank of water, a cryo liquefier, it would be up, up and away in a much better manner than Roger Bird’s balloon.

          • Ophelia Rump

            Don’t you have to replenish liquid hydrogen to cool things. Where I work we have a tanker truck refilling our LH tanks once a week.

            Wouldn’t that be like reintroducing fuel to the payload?

            • Ivone

              Yes, you do have to replenish liquid hydrogen to keep the thrusters cool. It is the only thing I don’t like about the heavy lift EmDrive. But to waste helium…

              • Ivone

                Shawyer considered LN (liquid nitrogen) because its easier to handle and doesn’t boil off, but the YBCO superconductors doesn’t produce a good “Q” factor, and doesn’t provide lift. So LH has to be used, in spite of the difficulty in handling.

                • Ophelia Rump

                  Do you have any idea what the impediment is, which precludes recycling the coolant in a sealed system?

                  Why can’t you recycle the LN in a refrigeration cycle?

                • Ivone

                  In a July 31st NextBigfuture article about the EmDrive, what stopped research on using LN was that YBCO high temperature superconductivity wasn’t the same as low temperature superconductivity using niobium metal as the “Q” cavity. The “Q” effect worked with niobium, but not with YBCO. Niobium only becomes superconducting with LH. Niobium has good RF properties, but not YBCO. To quote, It is commonplace for a 1.3 GHz niobium SRF resonant cavity at 1.8
                  Kelvin to obtain Q=5×10**10 [50 billion]. Such a very high Q resonator
                  and its narrow bandwidth can then be exploited for a variety of
                  applications. At present, none of the “high Tc” superconducting
                  materials are suited for RF applications. Shortcomings of these
                  materials arise due to their underlying physics as well as their bulk
                  mechanical properties not being amenable to fabricating accelerator
                  cavities.

                • Ivone

                  The LN is easily recycled, but it can only create high temperature superconductivity which is useless for RF work. Believe me, when I realised this, I was very disappointed, for a whole lot of daydeaming about easily realised antigravity and space travel had to be thrown out of the window!

                • GreenWin

                  If one of these things actually entered space, thrusters exposed to the vacuum could realize -100C cooling effect. If in a solar orbit rolling the craft to evenly radiate heat is fairly standard astronautics. It all sounds like good fun.

                • Ivone

                  The rest of the craft would conduct heat to the thrusters. The necessary 18 – 20 kelvin would have to be aggressively maintained.

                • Ophelia Rump

                  Is it possible to use Liquid Hydrogen in a closed loop refrigeration cycle?

                • US_Citizen71

                  You can but due to it’s small molecular size it leaks out of most systems eventually.

                • Ophelia Rump

                  My understanding is that it is extremely difficult to dump heat in space because of the vacuum.

            • Ivone

              Ophelia, what is your LH used for?

              • Ophelia Rump

                I never asked. It is best to lose the habit of making too many inquiries.

    • bachcole

      Now I can see it.

      • BroKeeper

        Me too. Roger Bird floating away in his E-Cat helium/hydrogen filled “beautiful, beautiful balloon” to the tune of ‘Up Up and Away’ by The 5th Fifth Dimensions.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Because it is difficult to insure against the possibility of becoming a public reenactment of the Hindenburg.

      • Ivone

        “Oh the humanity…the humanity!”

    • Pierre Ordinaire

      Why do we have to fill a balloon at atmospheric pressure? Why not connect the exhaust to a pump that will fill hidrogent tanks to many psi’s?