AR on What the Rossi Effect is Not

Many people have been trying to get their head around what the ‘Rossi Effect’ is. What could be going on inside the E-Cat reactor to generate so much energy without the problems associated with the nuclear and chemical reactions that are currently used?

If Rossi won’t tell us what is going on (he says that at some point he will, but we’ve been waiting for years to learn about his theory), maybe it’s better to ask him what’s not going on. Which is something that a reader on the Journal of Nuclear Physics just did:

Hi Andrea,
Which of these is more correctly describing the Rossi effect

a, a new form of powerful chemical reaction.

b, a new form of benign nuclear fusion

C, a new form of benign nuclear fission reaction.

D, a new form of benign nuclear annihilation of sub atomic particles reaction.

The answer is:

None of them.
Warm Regards

I’m not sure that this is very helpful information, but maybe it can steer some thinking away from going down certain paths. It does appear likely that ‘cold fusion’ is a misnomer, even though I like the label for simplicity and recognizability. It will be nice to finally get some theoretical information from Rossi about his effect, since it seems that he has made a critical breakthrough in his work which can be of great importance not only for science, but also all of civilization.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Yeah, I was looking for “chill-out”. This is more like “near-death”.

  • Ted-X

    To complete the previous posting. In the tool-making industry, the process where extremely small grains of steel or alloys are created is called cryogenic treatment. Tools are gradually cooled to the temp. of liquid nitrogen and held in liquid nitrogen fro 48 hours, then slowly returned to the room temperature. The result is that the grains are becoming much smaller than before and the hardness increases. It is an extension of the tempering process to control the metallic grains. As the grains are being cracked, the nano-size gaps are likely to form. Nickel then acts like a sponge to hydrogen, which might be the transfer agent perhaps resonating with the Casimir forces in the nano-cracks.
    The above cryogenic treatment is a suggestion for the Fleischman Memorial Project

  • Ted-X

    With so many exclusions indicated by Rossi, the only remaining thing seems to be the Casimir force in nano-cracks of nickel. His preference for Quantum Effects is indicating in this direction. Also, the reference to “no new physics”. All combined, we have a zero-point-energy effect via Casimir forces transferring energy to hydrogen or nickel. The nano-cracks are essential in this case. Hint: what are the metallurgical processes producing nano-cracks?
    Thesis: the catalyst is nickel, micron-size particles processed to develop intense nano-cracks.
    The process to do that is well known in the tool-making industry and is of low cost.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Yeah, without all the data the imagination runs wild. It’s a bit like a sensory derivation tank. I’ll wait for the report.

    On the other hand, as Gregory Chaitin so aptly put it: “it’s like the atom bomb. Once it’s done it’s easy to do one. The secret [to the Hot-Cat] is knowing that it’s possible”. After 6:35

  • pelgrim108

    Just some lines taken from after a search on “Rossi Effect”
    Everything is out of context and incomplete ( but also nice and compact)

    July 6th, 2011 at 5:20 PM

    I have followed you work and I think the process should be called “ROSSI EFFECT” insteas of LENR.

    You are right, my technology is based on an EFFECT, as I think.


    My greatest fear for eCat technology is that a way will be found to weaponize it.

    The Rossi Effect is intrinsecally too slow to be used for that kind of things.


    In our work and in the Rossi Effect there is nothing strange or exoteric or anything that can put in crisis the rules of Physics. I work using the well known rules, that we studied very well. No new physics have to be expected from my work, just a better use of the Physics we already have.


    Here have named my process the “Rossi Effect” referring to the collective phenomenon ( whose mechanism has now been completely understood).


    The Rossi Effect, as a matter of fact, belongs to the cathegory of LENR, like Cats belong to the cathegory of animals.


    Does your effect involve electron capture?
    No, it does not.


    This calculation would lead the duration of the charging of 1 g of Ni for a reactor of 10 kW to about one or few months (about 1.000 h).Is this correct?

    Actually, the mechanism of the Rossi effect makes different the duration,…


    In any case the observation of the astrophysic phenomena has given bases to the theory behind the work we are doing. Together with Prof. Focardi we analyzed some reactions that are foundamental for what now we call the “Rossi Effect”.


    As a matter of fact, the Rossi Effect theory has been also inspired from astophysic reactions, but has nothing to do with dark matter or dark energy.


    Have you reached the point yet where highly reliable computational modeling of Rossi Effect devices is possible?

    I would say yes, even if we are still working on the computational modeling.


    the publication of the theory behind the so called Rossi Effect I think will be published in 2014, but this is not a guarantee, because many are the factors this decision will depend from.


    Andrea, You are right to consider the conservation of Lepton parity in any proposed electron mechanism. This is why the neutrino was devised and experimentally discovered. It has explained many of the previous experimental results which required a balance to be observed and this is why I think electron involvement can be proposed in LENR effects.

    I agree with what you say now; it is true that the neutrinos have made respected the conservation of the leptons parity in the equations of many Feynman diagrams, but they cannot do it in the electron capture described in LENR theories, which, therefore, do not respect the leptons conservation law. Therefore such theories are wrong. The mechanism that allows the production of energy by means of the so called Rossi Effect is totally different.


    Would you say, without giving a name, that any of the published approaches (whether peer reviewed or not) explains the effect correctly?

    No one, sorry. And I assure I studied all of the published ones.


    I will publish the theory behind the so called Rossi Effect as soon as possible, in any case not before the validation work in course will be completed.


    The premise of helium production will be tested with careful note to the ratio of 3He to 4He.

    The so called Rossi Effect works on the base of totally different principles.


    1. Can you tell us if the eCat works using Nuclear Fusion principles?
    2. Do you notice a decrease in Hydrogen pressure after long eCat operations (days or months)?

    1- I cannot disclose, so far, what happens inside the reactor
    2- not witin the term of 6 months


    If you could somehow use tungsten instead of nickel for the Rossi effect, you might be able to get to 3,000C

    Not possible.


    Is the eCat performance affected by external environmental energies, such as
    a. Radio waves/EMP
    b. Indirect Lightning
    c. Earthquakes/seismic shocks or vibrations at levels below that where physical damage occurs?

    a. No
    b. No
    c. No


    will the theory that you and your team developed about the so-called “Rossi Effect” be disclosed (fully or partially) together with the new TPR publication ?

    partially yes


    In our case, the probability that spontaneously the conditions necessary to get the Rossi Effect can happen in and/or on the Earth are very, very low,


    Sincerely, I confess you that I think probably I am not the person that will find the more convincing theoretical explication of the so far supposed Rossi Effect. This does not mean that I do not have theoretical ideas.


    I think the TPR2 will teach us things that I myself do not know, due to the sophisticated analysis the Professors are doing.


    I know that we have a consolidated explication about how the so called “Rossi Effect” works and the physical mechanirms that allow it to work. Otherwise, it could not work reliably in industrial applications.


    August 12th, 2014 at 6:47 PM

    Which of these is more correctly describing the Rossi effect
    a, a new form of powerful chemical reaction.
    b, a new form of benign nuclear fusion
    C, a new form of benign nuclear fission reaction.
    D, a new form of benign nuclear annihilation of sub atomic particles reaction.

    None of them.
    None of the definitions you proposed are proper and to rephrase them could be misleading.
    The more I think to it, the more I like QUAR, quantum reactions. There is nothing new, I use what I learnt from the study of books used in the Universities.


    • Alan DeAngelis

      Interesting, there’s no drop in pressure after 6 months.
      Perhaps helium is being created as the hydrogen is being consumed.

      H(1) + Ni(61) > Co(58) + He(4) 0.489 MeV ?

      H(1) + Ni(62) > Co(59) + He(4) 0.347 MeV ?

      H(1) + Ni(64) > Co(61) + He(4) 0.663 MeV ?

      Or perhaps it would still drop (by one half) by this mechanism because it would be molecule hydrogen H2 going to He.

      I’ll have to think of another mechanism.

  • Lande

    Rossi’s statement is a little provocative: “The more I think to it, the more I like QUAR, quantum reactions. There is nothing new, I use what I learnt from the study of books used in the Universities.” Rossi not being a physicist claims no new physics wrt E-cat. Which means that all the hundreds of physisists working in the Cold fusion field since 1989 missed out on some “easy” soluitions ? Really ?

  • Alan DeAngelis

    I think I’ll stop thinking about this and wait for the report. It might be something as straight forward as a proton reacting with nickel-64 to become cobalt-61 and an alpha (which is helium). The cobalt would give off an electron in a beta decay and a 67 keV gamma ray to give nickel-61.

    H(1) + Ni(64) > He(4) + Co(61) 0.663 MeV

    Co(61) > Ni(61) + e- half life 1.65 hours

  • Paul

    We can say the same for hydrinos: are a new physics or classic physics? Mill’s theory is an amazing extension of classical physics, which make useless Quantum Mechanics. Probably, Rossi effect does not require a “new” physics in the common sense we give to this expression.

  • clovis ray

    Unless there is no cracks, of course.

  • Bernie777

    Are other LENR reactors like the Rossi effect? “vibrations in the QUAR”, he, he, he. Or wave variations

  • Omega Z

    It is my opinion that the only reason Rossi answered in this way is that it follows past responses. It does not involve new physics.

    Had the question been of a different form/nature such as does it involve a nuclear reaction, Rossi’s response would have been that he can not discuss what happens internally.
    You can find this response repeated dozens of times by Rossi on JONP…

    (It is not “a new form of”)
    Sorry, I probably should have explained this better as not being a direct response from Rossi. Just my interpretation

    • Omega Z

      Case in point On JONP:
      1. is it a nuclear reaction, ie, involves the nucleus?

      Andrea Rossi …August 13th, 2014 at 9:09 AM
      Giuliano Bettini:
      As you know, I do not answer to question regarding what happens inside the reactor, so far, Beyond what I already have written on this subject.
      Warm Regards, A.R.

  • Omega Z

    Still speculating about whether it’s nuclear or not based on the questions?

    Note: Every question starts with “a new form”
    To which Rossi responds “None of them.” Meaning It is not “a new form”. It says nothing about it being nuclear or not.

    What if the questions had been of a different form. “Is it a nuclear fusion reaction?”

    3 guesses about Rossi’s response & the first 2 don’t count!

    You Know I can’t discuss the particulars of what happens in the internals of the E-cat. Please refrain from asking these questions.

    OK, I ad lib a little & left out the positive or negative, But anyone who visits JONP very often knows this is what would have been stated. Likely the only reason Rossi answered these questions is that it tells us nothing.

  • barty

    Remember that Rossi in the past sometimes lied to confuse his competitors.

  • VYT

    From my point of view, Rossi’s comments on the source of energy and new name of LENR as QUAR is nothing more than market trick to sell the technology; it is not about physics. And, all Rossi’s statements about quantum field theory are only a way to escape from necessity of real explanation by using quantum magic making anything possible and still in the frame of official physics.

  • LuFong

    Rossi has said repeatedly that the Rossi Effect is not new physics. So none of the “new forms” would apply. Back to square one.

  • Omega Z

    Rossi didn’t say there was no fusion.
    Re-read the questions.

    • Barry8

      Good point.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I really do not think it is such a good idea to do that kind of “tinkering”.

    If you were to find a reaction which produced neutrons, xrays, gamma rays, or a burst of energy. You might not get the chance to look for another hobby.

    Seriously it is cutting edge energy physics.

  • Omega Z

    “None of them.”
    It is not “a new form of”

  • Alan DeAngelis

    I finally got it through my thick head last night. LENR does apply to the palladium-deuterium systems but not to the E-Cat. They are both isotopes of hydrogen absorbed and adsorbed into and onto transition metals but that’s were the similarity ends. Rossi wouldn’t be shy about calling it nuclear if he thought it was nuclear. I think that is what Rossi is telling us. Something even wilder than cold fusion/LENR is happening here.

    • GreenWin

      Indeed. Something to do with the vacuum flux (ZP) depression at boundaries of <50nm geometric cavities, e.g. seen in Casimir. Relativistic and energy differentials allow protium electrons to transition to lower n/137 orbital, (Mills) shedding energy in process. On exiting these cavities, the fractional atom's electron absorbs vacuum energy to return it to classical H1 ground state.

      Or some variation thereon. Point is we are accessing an "open" system variously named quantum vacuum, Zero Point field, virtual field, vacuum flux, "Higgs field" etc. If I recall, Mr. Fusor used a "flux capacitor" – a wonderful ET technology that stores and smooths the chaos in these virtual fields. :)

      Is this "crackpot, fringe, or pseudo" science? Only if you disbelieve the formidable insights of… mainstream physics:

      • GreenWin

        Apologies. My path of investigation is based on the fascinating work of Bernard Haisch, Rueda, Puthoff, et al… and other wizards lurking about at Skworks. THX.

        • Alan DeAngelis

          We aren’t in Kansas anymore. He noticed the fluctuating magnetic field after they collected the data for the report so it will be a while before we get to know the details.

      • georgehants

        Dear GreenWin, I think most scientists would not get beyond the first sentence of the report without running to hide under the kitchen table shouting, nothing beyond a steam engine, Crackpot, etc.
        An “open system” means the second law etc. means nothing, again unacceptable to our qualified experts.
        When one looks, there are True, Real scientists at work just like Mr. Rossi.
        Is there going to be a day named in science so that every year those great men and women who have done all the real work in science and received almost nothing but abuse and debunking over many years can be apologized to and remembered by the whole scientific establishment.

        • bachcole

          Dear georgehants, I am glad to see you back.

          I was just driving to pick up my raw milk (the acquisition of which is discouraged in my state thanks to the “experts”) and I thought that there are NO experts when it comes to a paradigm shift. Everyone here should know that I am not an expert on nuclear physics, and that would be putting it charitably. But I am more of an expert on low energy nuclear reactions than those who refuse to look outside of the box, despite their impressive academic and professional credentials. But, like the MD who has decided to go holistic and is actively pursuing knowledge of holistic health, any nuclear knowledgeable person who believes in the reality of LENR+ is way more of an expert than I am.

          I like the idea of setting aside a day to remember those with the moral courage to keep going, despite opposition, like Wegener, the Wright Bros., etc. etc. etc.

        • GreenWin

          Nice to read you George. The collusion of academia/government/industry to reap money and power these past years has retarded human evolution. Doubtful our tarnished orthodoxy would ever consider a day of contrition. These people simply don’t know humility. Or introspection. Or altruism.

          But we can speak and write openly about the “Dark Age of Dogma” – that we are soon to emerge from. I propose world leaders challenge educators to again encourage independent thought and action. The appearance of these disruptive technologies is due to human spirit. Independent, courageous human spirit – with a dash of superempirical help.

          It would be fitting for all levels of education to encourage and support non-consensus (Alain’s group-think) thinking. Educators should seek out and reward students who oppose sheeple behaviors and contribute new ideas without risk of ridicule.

  • Wes

    Very interesting blog. A Tungsten catalyst is consistent Moller’s Atomic Hydrogen Generator (MAHG).

    • Ted-X

      In atomic hydrogen welding (tungsten electrodes) there is some gamma radiation emitted (from my course in metallurgy). Just a food for thought… Rossi emphasized atomic hydrogen (reminds the term “in statu nascendi” – high reactivity when a compound is just formed).

  • Ophelia Rump

    You might also look up xenophobia.

  • bitplayer

    We only get the history of the winners. I’m not saying IH can’t do it, however, there’s a long stretch from what we’ve seen of Rossi’s factory to hi tech clean rooms. And all you need to make that stretch is $, $, $ and $.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Tom Dardan is capable of steering Billions of dollars toward Industrial Heat if the need is there. His current funding potential approaches infinite.

      • bitplayer

        I agree that Darden could probably raise the necessary $100M to get it off the ground. But it’s like that emdrive, it takes a little while to get up to speed. Against a dozen other major industrial concerns, including GE and Siemens, and a dozen more startups including those backed by Elon Musk, IH/Rossi may have a relatively small protected IP platform, and one that is only protected by exclusive knowledge of the Rossi Effect. The established concerns can within a few weeks redirect substantial existing resources and facilities to breaking that code. From that point, I give the secret no more than six months before one of those groups is ready to attempt to operationalize it. After that, it’s a horse race, and IH/Rossi would have spent that six months acquiring staff, facilities,and resources, a large part of which would be focused on engineering and production, so it’s not likely they would make much headway in advancing the state of the art.

        They say that when your ship comes in
        First man grabs the rails
        Second grabs the after deck
        The third the planks and rails.
        – Robert Hunter

        • Broncobet

          That’s assuming there is an effect.

          • ecatworld

            We operate under that assumption here at E-Cat World

  • US_Citizen71

    I’m sure Joseph Goebbels would approve of your message.

  • Bernie777

    Can we assume “benign” means “safe”? If yes, has Rossi just told us it is not a nuclear reaction?

  • Sandy

    If the nickel powder in an E-Cat melts the Rossi Effect stops. So the Rossi Effect is dependent on the metal lattice in solid nickel. I wonder if Rossi is using a laser to deliver thermal shocks to the nickel powder in order to produce microscopic cracks in the powder particles, and to thereby create the cracks where the Rossi Effect occurs.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I think that at this point, that level of the technology is uninteresting in a research sense.
      The moment they mastered controlling the effect, the target moved.

      The new goal must be knowing how to construct each individual site. If you could embed those sites into a matrix of a higher melting point material, like ceramics; you could increase both the maximum temperature and the size / power ratio. Whoever owns the top tier technology rules the market.

      Industrial Heat could be bumped to second place by someone else’s upgrade to their own technology if they do not focus on how to best improve the reaction sites.

      • bitplayer

        I’ve always figured that the LENR reactions sites would eventually be constructed by photomicrolithography (as in integrated circuit manufacturing) or nanotechnology chemical techniques (as in creating quantum dots), and finally through nano-assembly (if and when the sci-fi becomes true).

        That is, unless randomness in the size and shape of the reactions sites (ala the samples Celani provided to MFMP) is a particular virtue, which seems unlikely.

        To me, the technological distance from Celani’s preparation techniques (dip in acid) to photomicrolithography nicely illustrates the potential for LENR development, once acceptance of the Rossi effect becomes irrefutable and big R&D dollars start flowing. (One might suppose Rossi’s current technology is somewhere in between).

        All this makes me think that Rossi and IH will be much better off selling IP than boiler heaters, after they’ve proven the effect.

        This article in the New Yorker

        nicely debunks the idea that little feisty startups regularly knock off established industrial players.

        • Ophelia Rump

          Then money and the security are in licensing the IP. Manufacturing the name brand product is essential to launching the market, and maintaining the brand loyalty.

          • bitplayer


        • AlainCo

          what you propose seems coherent with Edmund Storms theory in

          his vision is that a kind of nanotube/cavity is covered by negative charges (electrons from the dissolved protons, given to the lattice).

          inside a chain of protons/deuterons (and sometime some lone big atoms) is locked, and the electrons of the hydrogen are afraid of the cavity walls, and in line with the nucleus chain…

          if he is right maybe one could design cavities with micrelectronics or nanotech tools…

          this won’t be easy as the sied of the cavities are probably critical.

          if one can make those nanocavities at will this mean the energy density could go very high, control can be very good, and why not we could unse non metalic lattice….

          maybe is it what a seldon technologies is doing with carbon nanotubes

  • Gerard McEk

    If neither of these are the case, then what is? Is the word ‘ benign’ perhaps wrongly chosen? In earlier days and in his patents AR surely indicated a form of transmutation which would point to “D”. On the other hand, what is the Rossi effect in the first place? Could it be that it is just a description of the catalyzed heat effect, without indicating the source and the theoretical background?

    • Ophelia Rump

      Benign is the expectation which has been set for us.

      If there are any surprises in the radiations, we will become aware of them soon enough.
      I dare say that if there were anything negative involved; it would have been discerned before they began the first long term test. Can there be any doubt that this latest round of testing considered safety?

      Benign until we hear particulars otherwise.

  • Donk970

    I guess I’m a bit dense. As far as I can remember from physics class if you have a bunch of heavier atoms, eg He and Cu that weren’t there before the reaction started then the reaction is fusion. I think everyone is trying way too hard to avoid the “F” word. Rossi, or someone else, is going to build a working power plant in the next few years. All of the arguments claiming that there can not be a fusion reaction happening will not change the fact that a working power plant exists. All of the validations and papers etc., at the end the day, aren’t worth a small ball of spit. The only thing that counts is a working power plant. Once there is a working power plant and there can be no further dispute over weather or not fusion is happening maybe we will finally see some serious work to figure out why it happens.

    • steve high

      Several theories appear to be in ascendancy that would extract energy from the nucleus without causing transmutation. What more elegant way to get around the problem of no gamma radiation? No transmutation could mean no need to disperse the energy of unwanted ganmma ray photons. The Mills hydrino theory is one such. Energy is extracted from the hydrogen atom by dropping the electron to a lower ground state. Evidence that protons can have varying mass brings forth the idea that energy could be extracted from protons by reducing their mass slightly, without forcing a transmutation. There is also the idea of causing some sort of oscillation to occur between protons and elements of whatever exists in the zero point energy field, thereby extracting energy from the Field without fundamentally altering the proton. All very far-fetched ideas that could explain why gamma rays are almost never seen in LENR reactions. Against all these would be the production of helium atoms which at least several LENR researchers have claimed to see. THAT would indeed be fusion. However I have heard that there are immense problems associated with the detection of tiny amounts of helium, so could there have been experimental error in those detections? Damn this subject is fascinating!

    • Omega Z

      “I guess I’m a bit dense.”
      Without a 3rd party test, I can not confirm this positive or negative. :-)
      Just kidding. Let me point out what you overlooked.
      All the Questions started with-“a new form of benign…”

      Rossi just told us it’s nothing new. In fact Rossi has stated before, “It doesn’t involve new physics.” Only a refined understanding of the existing physics.

      “benign” Is a matter of individual perspective.. 1000’C reactor? Toxic nano nickel powder? Gamma radiation?

  • GGluek

    Why is it the more one reads or hears Rossi, the less one knows?

    • Ophelia Rump

      Because reading snippets of some other chat thread, is like trying to read the flight of birds!

  • Ophelia Rump

    Security Document World (press release)See realtime coverageMorphoTrust USA wins E-CAT deal.
    MorphoTrust USA wins E-CAT deal

  • blanco69

    It may well be none of the above simply because what’s going on inside an ecat may not, in fact, be new. A good try though. I’m suprised that Rossi has backed the QUAR anagram for the “Rossi effect”. Scientists ususally like to attach a name to a process that they believe most closely matches reality. Throwing the word Quantum in there sounds a bit too “Star Wars” for me. What about MR. Magic Reations. That decribes the reality of the situation as well as any. By the way, anyone heard from Pekka? I get worried when a real scientist doesn’t post any comments for a while.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Mr. Fusion is a classic.

    • Omega Z

      Pekka is involved with a Solar “Sail” project that launched about a year or 2 ago.
      It’s possible after studying the data from that device that he is busy/involved with the Larger 2nd stage Sail project.

      • Broncobet


  • Ophelia Rump

    QUAR, Quantum Reaction, but what does the A stand for?

    • US_Citizen71

      QUAntum Reaction

      • Ophelia Rump

        I hope you are wrong simply because that is a dreadful way to abbreviate.
        Maybe it plays better in Italian.

        • US_Citizen71

          Just a WAG!

          Maybe it’s:

          ; – )

          • Ophelia Rump

            I like that interpretation.

  • ecatworld

    An interesting new comment from AR in response to Wladimir Guglinksi who attacks the quantum field theory:

    Wladimir Guglinski:
    As always, we publish your theory and consequent considerations of yours, as we will continue to do, but I want to confirm that I strongly adhere to the quantum fields theory. It is not true that the snakes came from the academic world, the snakes came from well individuated sources. I owe to the Academic environment all I learnt about Physics and is at the base of my research.
    Warm Regards,

    • Ivone

      And it is to standard special relativity theory, electromagnetism and quantum field theory that we owe the stunning advances in inertial style thrust in the form of Em Drive technology.