Rossi on ‘Electrostatic’ Force from the E-Cat

Most people following the E-Cat story are aware that we’re in a lull in the action as we wait for the long anticipated report, and the unveiling of the first commercial plant. I hope this period won’t go on for too long, but it will take as long as it takes, and I’m certainly not going anywhere during this time of waiting. Rossi says that during this time his attention is focused almost exclusively on the 1 MW plant, but there have been some questions on the Journal of Nuclear Physics about an interesting phenomenon that Rossi has reported about — that the E-Cat give off an electomagnetic force.

Here are some questions and answers posted today by Hank Mills on this topic.

Could you please tell us a little more about the electromagnetic fields detected from your device? They have nothing to do with the upcoming report which is only measuring heat production, so I hope you can share just a bit of info. For example:
1 – What form of EM fields are you measuring? Magnetic? Electrostatic? - electrostatic

2 – Where are they detected? Inside the reactor? Outside? – outside

3 – What is the strength of the field in Tesla, if it is a magnetic field? - see 1

4 – Is it pulsing or constant? – pulsing
My dream would be that you could design a low temp E-Cat that would produce pulsing magnetic fields outside of the reactor. If this was the case, you could wrap a coil of copper wire around it and convert the magnetism to electricity. I can imagine such a solid state E-Cat being used to power an RF cavity thruster so we could colonize the solar system.

While Rossi and Industrial Heat are working initially on exploiting the heat from the E-Cat reaction, it’s possible that future developments around this interesting electrostatic phenomenon could be just as significant.

UPDATE: Another question and response on this topic just posted on the JONP:

Q: Is there any chance/do you believe that the third party testers have observed and analyzed this electrostatic emission phenomenon in addition to performing heat measurements, and that they will report about it in their upcoming paper? Also, does this happen on every E-Cat crafted so far or just specific versions (for example the Hot-Cat)?

AR: No, this phenomenon is for us a serendipity, it has not even mentioned to the Third Independent Party, because, as I said, a lot of further R&D is necessary before considering it a real production.
We suspect to have observed it during our internal tests with the Hot Cat.

When Rossi says ‘we suspect to have observed it’, it makes it sound like that it must have been a very faint effect.

  • Alan DeAngelis
  • Obvious

    Roger, you are on moderation delay, so I’ll do what I can here.
    Rossi said MOST, who knows what % is gamma/x-rays and something else. Obviously there is a heater… I don’t know if that qualifies for Rossi as part of the “not most”.
    I guess that as far as the last paragraph on my soliloquy, below, H embrittlement is different than gamma wear-and-tear, but I sort of agree with you. Rossi claims the device should be good for over 20 years. I don’t know if he includes or excludes the reactor core changes as part of that. Both H embritlement and gamma damage can be mitigated by proper alloy selection. Changing the reactor core sleeve from stainless to tungsten in the Hot Cat suggests that the sleeve is not part of the reaction, but note that in older versions, iron was an unintentional by-product that was derived from the case, so he may have had issues with wear at an earlier time.
    Cheers,
    O

  • Obvious

    Q: 4. Are x-rays present in the Hot Cat? A: 4. yes

    Q: 5. Are gamma rays present in the Hot Cat? A: 5. yes

    Q: 6. If so, are they responsible for MOST of the heat? A: 6. yes
    JoNP Sept 13, 2012

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Disclaimer:
    Actually it’s senile disinhibition that’s sent me off on another tangent. I’m just having fun and I hope no one takes me too seriously (I don’t).

    I’m trying to get a feel for how a 511 keV (0.511 MeV) gamma ray stacks up when compared with other gamma rays that we come in contact with. The potassium-40 in the banana I’m eating gives off a 1.46 MeV gamma ray.

    The gamma ray in the transmutation reaction of nickel to copper that they originally proposed would be 7.45 MeV.

    H(1) + Ni(64) > Cu(65) + a 7.45 MeV gamma ray.

    So maybe this is an even safer reactor than we thought it was.

  • Obvious

    If the gammas aren’t energetic enough to penetrate the rather thin shielding, then probably only electrons will be dislodged from the metal atoms. Inner electron vacancies will be filled by the dropping “down orbit” of more energetic electrons in the same atom, the outmost of which are fairly freely exchanged between the metal atoms anyways. Every electron that drops into a lower valence will release some energy (photons) in order to have the correct energy to fill the lower energy level. In this way, a single gamma can cause a rapid cascade of several discrete energy pulses, which could be thermalized in the right environment.

    In organic systems, this could cause dangerous chemical bond-breaking, but metals (or at least good electrical conductors) are much more flexible when it comes to electron loss and replacement. Complex alloys might be more susceptible to damage, in the long term, possibly.

    If the gammas were tuned to an energy that effectively dislodged electrons just below the level where IR is emitted when the higher valence electron drops in to the vacated lower level, then this effect would produce prodigious amounts of heat.

    Hydrogen embrittlement damage to the reactor is probably more of a concern for long term use, since that causes atomic dislocations in the metal structure that can lead to metal fatigue and ultimately cracks and similar failures like microscopic holes in metals, especially alloys.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Thank you.

  • Christopher Calder

    An interesting experiment would be to wrap a coil around a Hot Cat and connect the output to a high efficiency home loudspeaker.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Yeah, if positrons are created, I wonder how long they’d last before they underwent electron–positron annihilation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron%E2%80%93positron_annihilation

    • Ophelia Rump

      The mean life of positrons in metals is found to be about 1.5×10−10 sec

      • Curbina

        It has been said that much of the thermal release in the e.
        .cat is from the gamma rays emitted and dissipated as heat against the shielding. Can’t remember a link now but will dig one for you.

      • Curbina

        This is quoted in shutdownrossi.com in all of places (among many things, the owner of that page, that is said to have ties with S. Krivit, has always said that the e-cat is a dangerous nuclear device, *sigh*)

        January 16th, 2012 at 11:55 AM

        Dear John Tobey:

        We do not produce tritium. Besides, all the tests we
        made have given evidence of the fact that there are not radiations from
        the E-Cat versus the outside that change significantly the background. The gamma rays produced during the operation are turned into heat.

        Warm Regards,

        A.R.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Yeah, I know it’s far fetched but in the January 14, 2011 demo of the E-Cat weren’t they looking for the two 511 keV gamma rays that would be seen in an electron–positron annihilation because they thought that a proton was fusing with nickel to become copper plus a positron? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E3IFudAPAc

        So, the gamma rays would only be 511 keV. The majority of the energy (about 24 MeV) would be the kinetic energy of the two moving positrons.
        I think positrons from the decay of an isotope of fluorine can be seen in cloud chambers so perhaps they can dissipate their energy before they slow down and react with an electron.

        • Alan DeAngelis

          PS

          David Bianchini may have been looking for this (I’ve forgotten).

          60Ni + 1H → 61Cu* → 61Ni + β+ + γ + νe,

        • Obvious

          Considering that A: Rossi says that gammas are the heat source, and B: the gammas don’t escape the reactor vessel, and C; we have seen the constraints of the physical size of the reactor vessel, then we can put a reasonable range on the gamma energy output, and therefore constrain the possible reaction types that creates the gammas.

          • Ophelia Rump

            What you say is reasonable, I think the report should cover any safety considerations. It is remarkable that the E-Cat has so far been determined to be radiation safe, when you consider the potential problems.

            No doubt this adds to the hesitation of experts to believe the great good fortune of this technology. Honestly I am still holding my breath over the negative possibilities.

            • Obvious

              The trick is to work out what volume of gammas at various energies is required to heat the water in the jacket so that the device actually functions as advertised, in order to pare down the more likely range. The lower the energy of gammas that are used, the greater the volume of gammas that need be produced to heat water fast enough to be effective. There should be a Goldilocks zone of energies that achieves a reasonable balance. That Goldilocks zone will be the smudged fingerprint of the possible nuclear or electromagnetic events (or combination) that the device uses.

      • Alan DeAngelis
        • Alan DeAngelis

          PS
          There may also be some bremsstrahlung.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung

        • Ophelia Rump

          Those are 50% attenuation values, for each layer at the specified thickness half gets through. It would take many layers to reach 100% attenuation. Less than 100% is worse than the radiation itself due to the shrapnel effect.

          This PDF goes into detail about the problems of gamma shielding astronauts.

          http://engineering.dartmouth.edu/~d76205x/research/shielding/docs/Parker_06.pdf

          • Alan DeAngelis

            Yeah, and lead would melt but doesn’t he have some sort of shielding on the Cats? Maybe it’s just boron for neutrons.

            • Ophelia Rump

              If you had a need to shield the E-Cat from either Gamma or Neutrons, it would not be a practical device for general distribution. If you wanted to wipe out entire populations, it would be your device of choice.

          • Obvious

            It all depends on the energy of the gammas. Low energy = very minimal shielding. High energy = trouble.

  • Omega Z

    This electrostatic pulse occurs during both the drive mode and self sustain mode at high temps.
    Curiously, It is detected only in the Cat reactor, Not the mouse.

    As I understand it, The Cat has no resistance heaters. It is basically just a cartridge with a fuel charge. It is activated by the mouse.

    • Fortyniner

      Rossi seems to be fairly careful not to mention the frequency of the ‘pulse’ or whether it varies with known inputs. It seems possible that this value might represent either the EM ‘drive’ frequency or a sub-harmonic of it, acting to create an oscillating electrostatic field by setting up some kind of resonance in the electron cloud surrounding the nickel core.

      This might arise for instance in the event that the driver field is modulated to give rise to resonant surface phonons in the nickel mass (I’m not sure that a coherent phonon wave could arise in a mass of powdered nickel – perhaps the ‘cat’ is now of an entirely different design – a porous, sintered block of nickel maybe).

      • Omega Z

        Sorry 49’er, Most of this is over my head. I grasp just enough of it to ask silly questions.
        I Note that Rossi projected a little more excitement originally. Curiously, Not so much now. I suspect deception/misdirection.
        Personally, If it were my creation, I’d be extremely interested in the phenomena as to whether it could help in optimizing the effect & control there of.

        • Fortyniner

          Mine too – my qualifications are in microbiology! I just chuck intuition-based ideas into the soup from time to time, in the hope they might spark off someone who actually knows what they are talking about.

          I agree that IH should be putting a lot of effort into understanding this phenomenon – they probably are, I suspect.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            Yeah Fortyniner, something will come out of the “soup” we’re making here. The answer will probably come to you in a gestalt when you’re not thinking about it.

  • Omega Z

    Rossi updated his answer to Hank

    2- outside the reactor, inside the E-Cat, not outside the E-Cat

    Consider the core reactor as a pipe.
    The phenomenon is on the outside of this pipe.
    Which is contained in a shell or outer pipe.

  • jousterusa

    You can see the six titles on www,american-reporter.com

    • LuFong

      That’s a pretty sorry looking website. Surely you can do better than that?

      • jousterusa

        I am afraid many agree with you. I learned HTML 4.0 and we have an original perl scriupt, made for us by an Indian man who came here to do it in 1997, and we have only updated it and corrected errors ever since.

        • LuFong

          It’s pretty much unreadable. Look into an appropriate WordPress theme or some other modern website publishing platform. Hire someone in college cheap to do the conversion. Good luck.

          • jousterusa

            It’s not at all “unreadable.” Most of the writers have won multiple prizes for their excellence as reporters, editors and writers. The problem is that a Word document messed up the pagination, and due to that, none of the links go to the stories they are supposed to go to, except articles written before that one with the bug. But thanks for the constructive suggestion, anyway.

    • Fortyniner

      Joe – I was interested to read the article “Who is behind the war on cold fusion” but the link (http://www.american-reporter.com/119.html) doesn’t work. Peter.

  • jousterusa

    I trierd to adde Mats Lewan’s book but they said it was not available… Anyone know better?

  • jousterusa

    Here’s a nice Amazon widget on six cold fusion titles that you can pasted on your Website:
    Amazon.com Widgets

  • Alan DeAngelis

    This has me thinking about the abstract of this article again.
    “Hydrogen-like excitons in a high magnetic field” by M.A. Liberman (Department of Physics, Uppsala University).
    “…the hydrogen behaves like a weakly nonideal Bose gas…”
    http://jp4.journaldephysique.org/articles/jp4/abs/2000/05/jp4200010PR558/jp4200010PR558.html

    Megavolt positrons created in beta plus decays could cause an intense magnetic field. An intense magnetic field might eject an electron in molecular hydrogen, H2 and create an
    exciton, H2(+)(-) (a boson). These excitons might form a Bose-Einstein condensates. Some of the protons in this Bose gas might eject megavolt positrons to make neutrons to form larger nuclei (deuterons, alphas = helium). These megavolt positrons created in beta plus decays could cause an intense magnetic field again (cycling).

    For alpha (helium):
    1st step
    H2 + magnetic field > H2(+,-) exciton

    2nd step
    H2(+,-) + H2(+,-) > 2[H2(+,-)] Bose gas

    3rd step
    2[H2(+,-)] > He(4) + 2e+ 24.7 MeV

    And for a deuteron:
    H2(+,-) boson gas > H(2) deuteron + e+ (beta plus decay)

    Overall
    H2(1) > H(2) + e+ 0.42 MeV

  • pelgrim108

    One of the interesting aspects of the paper is the report of their
    measurement of producing 1.6 tesla fields for 4 seconds from a distance
    of 18 cm after the spark plugs have fired — which is something that
    indicates that direct electrical production could be feasible with such a
    system.
    (See section 3.3 on page 3)

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/10/25/kim-hadjichristos-publish-paper-on-defkalion-nickel-hydrogen/

    • US_Citizen71

      If that strength was true there should have been physical effects observed. According to Wikipedia ‘1.25 T – magnetic field intensity at the surface of a neodymium magnet’, at 1.6 T you would have 20% more strength than the magnet and from the description of 18 cm from the case the field would be about 50 cm in diameter and about 90-100 cm long making it one large and intense magnet. Every lost staple, paper clip, washer, etc in the room should have flown towards it. The observers should have complained about demagnetized credit cards and room keys. Many things about that demo are still in doubt, it appears Defkalion Europe dissolved over that test. I would take any data from that test with some skepticism.

  • Sanjeev

    Magnetic fields can be shielded easily (e.g. using Mumetal or soft iron), but yes, not by a Faraday cage. So perhaps they used some kind of unknown shield.

    Anyhow, if DGT and Rossi are both getting some sort of EM fields, does it mean that DGT’s device really works ?
    As far as I know, DGT were the first to report strong fields and at that time Rossi was unaware of such thing.

  • Dave Lawton

    If there is a electrostatic field there is a possibility it can cause a false increase in background
    radiation if using a Geiger counter to monitor background gamma rays.

    • US_Citizen71

      That could explain the one the freaked out at the beginning of one of Rossi’s early demos.

  • Christopher Calder

    Yes they did, about the time of their last public test of their reactor. They talked about it allot. The magnetic fields reported were powerful and unexpected.

  • Curbina

    Even Alexandros Xanthoulis at some point told Mats Lewan that as they had cracked Rossi’s secret (due to some data gathered from Padua University during their validation of Rossi’s e-cat prior to the agreement that later was terminated by Rossi) they also saw that direct electricity production from the LENR reaction was possible.

  • US_Citizen71

    “We suspect to have observed it during our internal tests with the Hot Cat” – I wonder if this is caused by similar means as a thermocouple being heated. Tesla had a patent on producing power by what was essentially a coil of metal held over a fire. Can heating a metal cause static build up?

  • Christopher Calder

    The electromagnetic field the Defkalion Hyperion reactors create is so strong that Defkalion had to install Faraday cages around them, otherwise the magnetic field would interfere with their other equipment. The Solar Hydrogen Trends reactor, that turns water into hydrogen gas, creates a strong magnetic field according to their literature. I suspect, but do not know, that the Solar Hydrogen Trends reactor creates a stronger field than the Hot Cat because it does not produce much heat. Their design may contain the field better because of its shape and construction.

    • US_Citizen71

      I’m curious, are you some how connected with SHT? You seem to try to bring mention of them into just about every thread.

      • Christopher Calder

        They are on my mind because they have a product that has been proven in multiple tests. Their spokesman passes my intuitive lie detector test, and a scam makes no sense with their business plan. They have too many reasonable and respected people working for them to be a bunch of idiots hiding a hydrogen canister in their machine. I doubt that would be possible anyway given the size limitations of their device and the very large hydrogen output. Testing their device is clear cut, unlike heat output reactors. Either it works or it does not work. Testing so far says it works like gangbusters, so I am very hopeful.

        • US_Citizen71

          I am firmly on the fence concerning them. I have no proof that they are conducting a scam or elaborate joke but on the other hand their device requires the concentration of a few too many miracles in one small box. To get me off the fence they will need to do one of two things. One start producing hydrogen in commercial quantities and not just talk about it. Two setup a device to be self sustaining short of water flowing in for several weeks time. Which shouldn’t be too difficult, any and every fuel cell manufacturer should want to partner with them if they have the goods.

          • Alain Samoun

            US_Citizen71: There is a chemical compound that will fit your test

            The sodium borohydride (NaBH4) that releases hydrogen in large quantity by reducing water, as shown in this chemical reaction:
            NaBH4 + 2 H2O → NaBO2 + 4 H2 (ΔH < 0)

            So what you do is preparing a solution of sodium borohydride at a pH high enough so it's stable. Then send this solution, that looks like water, on a catalyst (Nickel or Cobalt or others) et voila!,you get a lot of hydrogen,in fact for 1liter of water you can get close to 2,500 liters of hydrogen! with enough borohydride.

            Then you can pretend that all the oxygen in your water has been "transmuted" to hydrogen, and collect the money from Christopher…

            To my knowledge, sodium borohydride is or has been already used as a source of hydrogen in fuel cells.

            • Christopher Calder

              That is a far fetched possibility because the testers would have controlled the water input. How are they going to make money? No one is going to give them big money without looking inside the reactor and knowing the ingredients. These men are not selling stocks or shares as did the noble gas engine scamsters who were shut down by the feds.

              • Alain Samoun

                As I remember the tester only tested the hydrogen output not the water.
                See the TRC report.
                I do not know how they manage their clients and potential investors,I know that when Allen Sterling tried to measure the H2 output he was rebuffed.
                Anyway,I was just trying to explain a possible SHT skim, you can believe otherwise of course.

            • US_Citizen71

              After reading your post I looked up sodium borohydride on wikipedia and found an entry for a fuel cell that uses it for fuel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_borohydride_fuel_cell It seems that the reaction you mentioned is one that is unwanted by this type of cell and is the result of the sodium borohydride reacting with hot water. I now have a new hypothesis of how their machine works. I believe inside the machine is a large chamber the holds powdered sodium borohydride. The powdered sodium borohydride would give them a much longer running time than if it was mixed. The chamber is sealed except for a pipe that runs to the exterior exhaust port and a small inlet to allow heated water to pumped in. A separate chamber holds the water supply (eventually someone will want to test the water going in so it would be a bad place to hide chemicals) the water is heated by some form of fast on demand water heater. It could be off the shelf or just the internals of a coffee maker re-purposed. The hot water is then pumped into the sodium borohydride chamber and presto hydrogen gas. The wattage they claim to be used by the machine would be enough to power the water heater and pump. Since the reaction appears to be a low temperature one the heat would be mostly be caused by the water heating system and would be minimal over all.

              • Alain Samoun

                Yes,this scheme would probably work too if the borohydride is mixed with some catalyst.

  • Giancarlo

    if a pulsing electric field is measured a pulsing magnetic field intrinsically exists.
    So Maxwell said.

    • Sanjeev

      Right. If its pulsing it cannot be electro’static’.

      • morse

        So is Rossi lying to us or playing dumb?

        • Sanjeev

          Probably a typo and he actually meant electromagnetic field.

          • Fortyniner

            According to WP:

            “An electric field that changes with time, such as due to the motion of charged particles producing the field, influences the local magnetic field. That is: the electric and magnetic fields are not separate phenomena; what one observer perceives as an electric field, another observer in a different frame of reference perceives as a mixture of electric and magnetic fields.”

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_field

    • Gerard McEk

      It is indeed impossible to measure an electrostatic field at the outside of a metal tube (which the Ecat surrounds) without having a magnetic field. Probably the frequencies are quite high, otherwise it would be impossible to generate a measurable E-field outside the relatively small sized Ecat. Maybe they found that the temperature sensors were influenced by this EM field and show wrong data or that noise influenced the the temperature control.

  • mecatfish

    Most people following the E-Cat story are aware that we’re in a lull in the action as we wait for the long anticipated report, and the unveiling of the first commercial plant. I hope this period won’t go on for too long,
    Off topic, but has anyone heard anything on the Hot Cat Catalytic converter experiment?