Brian Ahern Interview with John Maguire about LENR

John Maguire of the Q-Niverse web site has followed up his recent interview with Edmund Storms with a new interview with Dr. Brian Ahern, a long-time researcher in the LENR field, and a member of the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project team.

The interview covers a lot of interesting topics. Ahern describes some of the experimental work he has been involved in over the years and talks about some of his theoretical conclusions regarding the origin of the LENR effect, which he considers stem from an eletromagnetic interactions (not nuclear ones). His perspective is that heat is something of an unwanted by-product of the reactions, and the really important thing is to find ways to harness the electomagnetics to produce electricity.

I found the interview very interesting and well worth listening to. Ahern has been involved in many experiments over the years which have convinced him of the reality of LENR. Recently, also, Andrea Rossi has mentioned that a team at Industrial Heat has reproduced LENR based on patents from Ahern.

For those of us following the E-Cat, towards the end of the interview Ahern and Maguire talk about the report we are all waiting for. Ahern says that he, like everyone else is waiting for the results of that report and that his understanding is that study is being funded by the Swedish energy institute Elforsk (who funded the 2012-13 study) to the tune of 500,000 Euros, and that the condition of the funding was that the report must be published whatever the results — the researchers were not allowed just to sit on the results. Ahern says that if the results show a COP of 2 at kW levels, that would be a ‘goldrush moment.’

Click here for a synopsis of the full list of topics covered in the interview.

  • Omega Z

    Just below, Ophelia Rump provides some links to free transcription service. Have you checked them out.
    Of course Ahern my be hard to capture with the audio being a little rough.

  • GreenWin

    Gosh Bronco, will you provide us with your evidence of LENR “scams?” Are you referring to the chicanery at CalTech, DoE and MIT re Pons & Fleischmann?

  • GreenWin

    Bronco, “How anybody can give SHT a fair hearing is mentally deranged…?” Paging Dr. Freud! “A fair hearing” is at the very center of good science, politics, justice, and all ideas new & challenging. Your tacit admission to this failure speaks volumes.

  • GreenWin

    Bronco, yougo a fixation on fission being the only solution to energy/climate. But as we are seeing from the growing band of LENR heretics, the advent of a clean, green, abundant source of non-radiative energy has a giant advantage; aside from fractional cost, abundant natural consumables (e.g. H2O, Ni), tiny footprint, portability, — there is NO radioactive waste!

    Day in and out we are seeing the massive failure of the US nuclear program – not because it has contributed just 20% to the grid – because they’ve failed to clean up their waste. And it is very dangerous waste. At the root of your argument is your belief that somehow without nuke power plants, we lose our defense-related tritium. Poppycock.

    BTW, what makes anyone think certain PTB will allow the use of nuke weapons on Earth??

  • GreenWin

    “If LENR is proven real, I would be more than happy to do my mea culpa.”

    It IS proven to all but those who practice this ritual behavior:

    • AlainCo

      yes proven without doubt, with more cross checking than a thousands things people are sure and a dozen more that mainstream sciene try to make people sure of.

      I just finished the previous book of Ed Storms “The Science of LENR” which makes a great summary of the various evidence.

      he is good, both to spot potential problems and pitfall, but also to show that the various results converge to a coherent, but complex, single reality.

      I just stated his recent book on theory

      the initial chapters focussed on experimental results looks similar in shorter, and show the scope of the phenomenon.

      now about SHT it is NOT a known LENR.
      it seems , from the shor description we have to violate basic laws of physics, because oxygen cannot spontaneously fission in hydrogens…

      anyway maybe we have a bad description of the transmutation equation.
      Ed storms explain that there is 3 observed reaction in LENR :
      – LENR fusion where light elements fuse into a bigger (eg D+D->He4)
      – simple transmutation where a lighter element (p,n,d) merge with a heavier… like Cs+4d ->Pr
      – fusion-fission transmutation where a light element merge with a heavy element that fission in two lighter parts.

      what SHT claims looks like en endothermic fussion-fission, or a spallation, of incredible efficiency…

      if it was not endothermic I would stay neutral…
      either they are bunk, and since there is no researchers having claimed the same result it is quite possible, or they are wrong with the description (or us to understand it).

      now discussion on theory or laws is worthless, makes a test, and if the theory don’t agree, we have to change the theory.

      • Fortyniner

        It is precisely because phenomena that have been labelled LENR are demonstrable and largely repeatable that they provoke such a fear reaction in so many ‘establishment’ physicists.

  • Bernie777

    Another great interview from John Maguire, please keep them coming. Question for John: You have interviewed many of the important players of LENR, who impressed you the most and why? Thanks.

    • Foks0904 .

      Bernie — I think you know you ask an impossible question. I have tons of appreciation for everybody; all of them bring something important to the table and have influenced my thinking in important ways — and many other people I’ve corresponded with, who I haven’t interviewed, have all been extremely impressive as well. I think, in this instance, I will give highest marks to Mike McKubre & Ed Storms for pretty much being there from day one and enduring the barrage of slings & arrows over the years. I think their experimental work will go down as some of the most important in the field. Mike’s heat/helium in PdD work is incredibly important. Ed’s co-discovery of tritium clearly demonstrated some kind of “nuclear” reaction at play in PdD systems, and his theory, whatever its level of correctness, will ultimately serve to help focus research and also eliminate false-leads.

      • Bernie777

        After sending my question, I realized it was an impossible question for you to answer, sorry. But you did a good job with it anyhow. There are hot spots around the world doing LENR research, do you have a feeling for which governments are the most involved in the research? Thanks.

        • Foks0904 .

          Bernie — Follow this link and you will find a listing of the countries who are most involved with LENR; though this particular report is from 2009. Since then I think China probably has the biggest interest, especially considering that there is some evidence they are developing their “new energy park” and having meetings with Industrial Heat.

        • Foks0904 .
  • GreenWin

    “I couldn’t get anybody else to do the experiment because they were afraid of being tarred with the brush of cold fusion.”

    One of the most interesting comments from Ahern is about terror in the science community regarding anything to do with cold fusion. Since when is fear of political association part of science?? In Brian’s words:

    “In 2005 Mizuno took deuterium gas, put it in a tube, he put the tube in a very strong magnetic field and he got bursts of neutrons. I thought that was interesting, I’m going to repeat that. I went to the magnet lab at MIT and got the help of Henry Cohn. I repeated Mizuno’s work and I got excess neutrons.

    But I couldn’t get anybody else to agree to do the experiment because they were afraid of being tarred with the brush of cold fusion. I said, “This is not cold fusion! This is just deuterium being disturbed by a magnetic field and it’s a wonderful thing.” I had a professor at Boston College who had the magnet… I would pay him handsomely to do it, and he refused. He did not want to get tarred with the brush of cold fusion. I got those results but never published them.” Ahern interview @ 35:50

    This will be helpful when the Congressional Hearings on LENR get underway.

    • Christopher Calder

      Think how many scientists are scared to speak out against the Climate Change religion. The USA has become a nation of mainly parrots and cowards. This Fall I hope for and expect a big change in the national psyche due to surprising election results and LENR test results.

      Many debate which LENR device really works. I currently believe the odds are that the Rossi device, the Defkalion device, and the Solar Hydrogen Trends device all work. If that turns out to be true (fingers crossed), the world is in for a major shock that will redefine human civilization from top to bottom.

      • GreenWin

        I’m with you Christopher. The infiltration of institutions by “scientists” – especially from climate mecca Boulder, CO – is pathetic. I would add Mills gadget to the LENR lineup. He’s demonstrating a COP of 17 with his SunCell rig and he has 20 years experience, many good papers and patents to back up his claims. Of course seeing a working prototype is critical for BLP.

        Fortyniner, AlainCo, and others believe we’ll see whopper spins from mainstream claiming credit and prior knowledge of LENR. One pathoskep A Kumar defends the LENR intimidation campaign. Like defending the Russian mob. Kumar’ll make a fine witness at the Congressional Hearings. :)

        • Fortyniner

          That’s right, but I would add the proviso that it is likely that this will only be the case when whatever is going on behind the curtains right now has been resolved to some extent.

          By now it must be obvious to a good proportion of high level energy cartel people that fundamental changes are coming, and could be upon them quite soon. I’d be very surprised if there is not a disorganised scramble currently going on to identify what groups are near to commercialisation and to either gain control, delay their progress or stop them altogether.

          At some point the various factions within the cartels will inevitably have their horses lined up for the running, and be in the process of dumping their liabilities, and it is likely that shortly after that point, politicians, academia and the media will suddenly discover that they’ve all been expecting and supporting the new energy sources for – well – as long as they can remember.

          Of course it will be much easier to perform the volte-face if LENR/CF is rebranded to make the new technologies look like the ‘son of hot fusion’, so that the enormous waste of public money on magnetic containment can be pasted over with apparent success.

          All this is why IH’s slow, methodical and highly secretive development path makes me very nervous. It’s the right way to do the job, but it is also allowing the time that entrenched interests need to quietly take over cold fusion when they are ready to do so.

    • Andy Kumar

      “I couldn’t get anybody else to do the experiment because they were afraid of being
      tarred with the brush of cold fusion”

      LENR community has this *martyr complex* that they are being persecuted. They have been brought up thinking that “the meek shall inherit the earth”. If there is *any truth* to what they say, the onus is on LENR people to fight for their ideas and get them accepted. Darwin did it, Copernicus did it. Their problem with LENR is small potatoes compared to Darwin. Some of these LENR whiners are sitting in modern (NOT ancient) seats-of-higher-learning with tenures. Makes you wonder why they cannot get a hearing for their ideas.

      Look at Copernicus’ *diplomatic* ways as he seeks Pope’s protection:

      Perhaps there will be *babblers* who claim to be judges of astronomy although *completely ignorant of the subject* and, badly distorting some passages of Scripture to their purpose, will dare to find fault with my undertaking and censure it. I disregard them even to the extent of despising their criticism as unfounded.

      Contrast with Galileo’s *in-your-face* ways as he ridicules the *Pope as Simplicio*

      When Galileo met with the new pope, Urban VIII, in 1623, he received permission from his longtime friend to write a work on heliocentrism, but the new pontiff cautioned him not to advocate the new position, only to present arguments for and against it. When Galileo wrote the Dialogue on the Two World Systems, he used an argument the pope had offered, and placed it in the mouth of his character Simplicio. Galileo, perhaps inadvertently, made fun of the pope, a result that could only have disastrous consequences.

      • GreenWin


        Copernican diplomacy did little since a century later the Pope & minions arrested Galieo for saying the same thing. Defending the failure of science to reckon with LENR only makes the buffoonery look pathetic. It is Simplicio’s pursuit.

      • AlainCo

        I support the Kuhn position.
        the conservatism of science is required to push the limits of current paradigm to the maximum.
        all what happened is indeed classic, but a a unusual level.

        the problem in current science is that it is too much centralized in USA Ivy league, which control high impact journal, medi, politics, advising panel, common criteria for funding, fashion…
        all Western science depend on Ivy league opinion.

        The hope came from Asia which for cultural and linguistic reason is less connected.

    • Foks0904 .

      Yes this was definitely an interesting anecdote that provided as much food for thought as his speculations on the over-unity battery system.

  • pelgrim108

    Herb Gillis
    July 26th, 2014 at 3:37 PM

    Dr. Rossi:

    Brian Ahern has expressed the opinion that LENR is not a nuclear
    phenomenon but instead an electromagnetic one. If that is true it raises
    the question of what the ultimate source of the observed excess energy
    might be. It clearly cannot be chemical, if your observations and the
    “third party test” results are accurate. Ahern said in a recent
    interview that the source may be some kind of vacuum energy (or the
    so-called “zero-point” energy of the vacuum). Do you think he might be
    right? If so; are there any limits to how much usable energy could be
    extracted from such a strange source?

    Kind regards; HRG.

    Andrea Rossi
    July 26th, 2014 at 8:12 PM

    Herb Gills:

    Brian Ahern is one of the few scientists in the LENR field that I think
    is making something that can have success. Said this, I must add that:

    1- I cannot discuss issues that would force me to disclose information that is still confidential.

    2- in principle, I respect the opinion of Dr Ahern, but I disagree, on
    the base of experiments we made with the E-Cats and the Hot Cats

    3- I wish good luck to this competitor of ours

    Warm Regards,

    • Stephen Haigh

      Im happy with AR’s response. I think the quickest way for us to get our home units is for this process to be nailed down and understood without recourse to fanciful explanations like ZPE , Hydrinos or unlikely fission of Oxygen :)
      My hope and expectation is that this will be understood with maybe tweaks to the standard model/qed or better understanding of condensed matter physics and collecting effects.

      • Christopher Calder

        There may be different phenomena occurring that we call LENR, or at least different flavors of the same general phenomena. The Solar Hydrogen Trends device produces very little heat, but lots of electromagnetism. Perhaps their ingredients act as a *natural enzyme* and crack water into H2 gas through what is mainly a magnetic process. With multiple positive tests, and the fact that fitting a hidden bottle of hydrogen in their reactor large enough to fake the outcome would be difficult, their claims should not be totally ignored. Their claims should also not be accepted yet as 100% proven fact, but we may be close to definitive proof. Remember Defkalion experienced such strong magnetic fields from their reactor that they had to shield their reactors in Faraday cages. Defkalion was not trying to create powerful electromagnetic forces but found them by accident in their quest to produce excess heat. The Widom Larsen Theory of cold fusion also includes strange electromagnetic forces occurring at the nano scale. It’s spooky.

        • Stephen Haigh

          I kinda hope that there isnt an * enzyme* that can neutralise the strong nuclear force in a water molecule or were sort of in the sciece fiction super weapon domain :)

  • Jouni

    If magnetic phenomenon are the key, what is the key in creating strong magnetic fields? I have no idea.
    High frequencies?, special wound wiring?, strange waveform?
    In Rossi’s former blue box there were three or four boards, doing waves.

  • Christopher Calder

    WOW! WOW! WOW!

    These ideas give a possible explanation as to how the Solar Hydrogen Trends reactor breaks water into hydrogen gas with such efficiency, and why Defkalion and Rossi reactors produce spooky unexplained electromagnetic fields.

    If Mills could speak with such honesty and humility I might believe him.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Robert, I found this article about using google voice as a free transcription service. I hope that It might help.

  • harryv2

    yes +1

  • Stephen Haigh

    It was an impressive interview until he got onto his theory that its extracting vacuum energy, which I consider in my opinion not a strong contender but I could be wrong :)

    • MasterBlaster7

      I think what you should take from this is….funny electromagnetic things happen with granules in the 5-10 nm region. This may be related to the funny things that happen with LENR in the 5-10 nm region. Thats it. Lets wait for a successful commercial device that forces money, brain, and equipment resources into LENR….then lets revisit these two areas in 5 years.

  • Hope4DBest

    By now, the only explanation I haven’t heard about LENR is one combining Wicca with the reverse Krebs cycle.

    • Foks0904 .

      HA! That’s not a bad point. But I think overall the theories actually do fall into about four general categories, and there are about 6-12 which you could point to as “contenders”, but ultimately I think a compromise will be found between all of them. All have a piece of the puzzle I think.

      • US_Citizen71

        Ahh yes, the classic blind men and an elephant analogy I think is likely a good one to apply to the state of LENR research today.

        • Foks0904 .

          Yeah exactly.

    • Mr. Moho

      Except… there are indeed reports of magnetic fields affecting in unusual ways the thermal output of LENR devices. Do you remember Mitchel Swartz’s presentation/latest information about his NANOR devices? It might not be far fetched that nanomagnetism or related processes are involved with these reactions.

      • MasterBlaster7

        Yah…there is, likely, something going on with LENR and nanomagnetism. But, to speculate on it at this point is about as useful as speculating on dark matter and dark energy. LENR and nanomagnetism needs a lot more fleshing out.

    • Andy Kumar

      LOL. We already have the ultimate TOE (Theory Of Everything). It goes like this: God said, let there be light and there was light. Judging by the number of followers, it is a successful theory.

      • MasterBlaster7

        You know…I dont trust any religious philosophies coming out of the mid/middle east…and neither should you.

  • tobalt

    collective magnetic exchange as in nickel at room temperature is not very temperature stable. as substances heat to regimes useful for the observed processes none of them show collective exchange anymore. they become paramagnets which is a large group of many materials. if something relating to electron spin is reponsible, it is for the fusion it is for sure not ferromagnetism.

    • Foks0904 .

      tobalt — I don’t disagree with you, but I posed a very similar question to Brian, and he said he’s confident that the super-ferromagnetic collective state, if the reaction doesn’t run away, can be sustained for very high temperatures. Maybe you’re right about the stamina of Nickel, but I don’t have the technical expertise to argue one way or another.

  • Gerard McEk

    Interesting that Ahern thinks it is (ferro-) magnetism and oscillations of (Ni) atoms that cause LENR. I do not believe that the energy comes from magnetism alone, unless magnetism and the hydrino’s of Mills have something in common. I guess that the relatively low frequency oscillations could indeed be induced via the non-linear magnetic field. Maybe this vast oscillation at nano scale brings atoms together sufficiently to overcome the coulomb barrier and cause fusion?
    Palladium is not ferromagnetic so I wonder how Ahern thinks this mechanism works.

    • Mr. Moho

      Contaminants can make Palladium show weak ferromagnetism. Could this be why only certain samples seemed to work in early cold fusion experiments?

      • Gerard McEk

        Never heard of that. Maybe the contaminants must be iron or nickel?

  • Omega Z

    Frank provides a link to the synopsis of which you can use to skip to what you want to listen to.
    I considered doing this. However I found it “All” interesting.

  • Owen Geiger

    “Brian Ahern received his PhD in material science from MIT, holds 26 patents and was a senior scientist for 17 years in research and development at USAF Rome Lab at Hanscom Air Force Base. Ahern was the U.S. Air Force’s expert on nano-materials. Ahern has discovered the LENR phenomenon is occurring on the nanoscale and involves a formerly misunderstood and rarely explored attribute of nano-magnetism.”

    This is also being covered at Cold Fusion Now: Dr. Brian Ahern Connects Nanomagnetism and LENR

  • Owen Geiger

    I just posted the following comment in the Always Open Thread and then noticed this new blog post, so I’ll repost it here. Brian Ahern seems very credible.

    Brian talks about the Manelas device that’s producing overunity in an electric car:

    Rossi said a while back that Brian Ahern was probably his closest competitor. This makes Brian’s comments very interesting indeed. He’s saying it’s (LENR) a nanomagnetic effect, not nuclear.

    • georgehants

      From JONP
      July 25th, 2014 at 9:10 AM
      Dr Rossi:
      Are you still convinced that the “lattice” theory of Norman Cook is right?
      Thank you for your answer,
      Andrea Rossi
      July 25th, 2014 at 3:52 PM
      The answer is yes. It is the foundamental of LENR.
      Warm Regards,

    • hempenearth

      I’d much rather have the “N” stand for nanomagnetic rather than nuclear – easier to sell to manager types with no scientific clue.

      • Owen Geiger

        Yes, that would make safety certification easier to obtain and help gain acceptance from nuclear physicists (except some die hards who will fight it no matter what).

        Rossi says the reaction doesn’t violate known physics and so nanomagnetism may very well play a role. I suspect multiple things are involved. It’s this complexity that makes LENR research so difficult.

        John Maguire doesn’t seem optimistic about Rossi’s grasp of the theory, but I give him more credit than that. There’s probably no one on earth with as much understanding of his approach.

        • Fortyniner

          Nanomagnetism would only provide a possible component mechanism for energy transfer, not an energy source, so that would leave the question of the origin of the ‘extra’ energy open. Ahern’s suggestion of ‘zero point energy’ may point in the right general direction, but as ZPE is at present a minute force originating with ‘virtual’ particles, quite a large jump has to be made to explain kW-level energy inputs from this suppositional source.

          If unknown magnetic phenomena are the causal mechanism, then it seems possible that other claimants to ZPE utilisation, such as the QEG machine, may get there first.

          I have always felt that Rossi’s assertion that the mechanism for LENR can be found withing conventional physics was intended to keep the physics establishment off his back while he prepared to stun their world. That time is quite close now I think – if some other ‘anomalous’ device doesn’t pip him to the post. I am greatly looking forward to the fireworks display either way.

          • Owen Geiger

            “… a possible component mechanism” = perfect description. You said it better than I did.