Rossi: Three Replications Achieved of Competitors’ LENR Patents

Here’s an interesting comment from Andrea Rossi today regarding his thoughts about the technology of his competitors. As you may remember, Rossi has said in the past that he has a team at Industrial Heat whose task is to try and replicate competitors’ technologies based on patent applications in the public domain. This is what Rossi wrote today:

Some of them are making a very good work, mainly the ones that have worked to repeat our technology after it has been published in 2009 by the Patent Office, some are not, but I never comment specifically the work of our Competitors. A team of specialists funded by us is studying all the Technologies published and/or patented by our Competitors, replicating exactly what they describe, to check the real worth of their IP. So far we obtained the same results described in their publications only in three cases, regarding a Swedish, a Japanese and a USA LENR scientists. All the others have not given any anomalous amount of energy, honestly, even if we have spent substantial time and money to check the real status of their potential competitivity. I must add that many of the Technologies that did not produce any anomalous excess of energy can be considered all the same interesting and good, so that maybe in future will be improved.
Warm Regards,

Previously, Rossi has said they had not been able to replicate any of the systems of competitors, so this is interesting news, and quite positive for the LENR field, I think. This brings up the question, of course, of whose technology he is talking about. We know that there has been work on LENR in Japan — for example, by Mitsubishi and Clean Planet. In the USA there are a number of LENR researchers. Brillouin and Lenuco both have patent applications published — and there are more. I don’t remember any Swedish LENR companies with patent applications out there — maybe some readers here can remember. He mentions Swedish, Japanese and American ‘scientists’, which could mean these people are working for companies based in other countries, too.

Anyway, I find this interesting and encouraging news — it’s interesting that Industrial Heat is willing to put so much effort (and presumably) money into testing the LENR recipes of others; but I doubt that they will ever release data of these tests for competitive reasons It would be very interesting if all these patents could be tested by someone in an open source manner so we could get a detailed look at the results of various LENR systems.

  • Owen Geiger

    Hint: look into the history of the Research Triangle instead of making personal attacks.

  • Maxfield Q Norse

    The projection is astounding.

  • Private Citizen

    Amazed Rossi would expend time and energy to replicate patents with so many extensions of his own product crying for R&D.

    Perhaps Rossi would share with MFMP his tips on so quickly replicating LENR from patent apps, so that they might have a first clear cut success in demonstrating LENR.

    • Obvious

      My feeling is that there is a deal with the US patent office. When the US CF-LENR patent doors open, and Rossi with IH is banging pretty hard on the door, then the USPO wants to have a handle on what patents are actually functional, rather than theoretical, so the process of allowing the formerly forbidden patents begins smoothly.
      Then the real USPO LENR patent storm will begin.

    • Owen Geiger

      IH is a billion dollar company. Surely they can afford more than one research team.

      • Why do you say this? Is that an assumption on your part?

        The only official documents we have so far indicate Industrial Heat rounded up about $11M on their initial ask of $20M.

        We might expect their capital requirements (and revenue) to grow exponentially as they enter the manufacturing stage but there’s little indication that’s actually happened yet. Are you just projecting into the future that they will soon be a billion dollar company?

        Or were you referring to Cherokee, which manages $2B of projects maybe?

        • Owen Geiger

          This is just my opinion. I believe IH is a front company of sorts for super wealthy industrialists. The 11 million $ is just the official amount that’s been invested so far. I doubt Rossi would sell the greatest invention in the history of mankind to just any old company. He’s dealing with a ‘good ol’ boys’ network who are directly involved in the Research Triangle. So not only are the backers super rich, they also have friends who are equally rich. Paying for an extra research team to validate and nail down the claims of their competitors would be chump change for these guys. Of course Rossi isn’t doing everything.

  • Gerard McEk

    The positive thing on his remark is that IH actually found three working LENR patents/studies! For IH this may be not so good as it may influence the profit they can make. However, the more companies compete the better it is for the the World as it will speed-up the product to the market time and the quality (reed: COP).

  • Bernie777

    I agree, since their press release six months ago, in which they said, “A primary goal of the company is to make the technology widely available, because of its potential impact on air pollution and carbon dioxide emissions from burning fossil fuels and biomass,” we have not heard one sound from them. Certainly part of making in “widely available” is too make it widely known the technology exists. Why haven’t we heard from them?

  • jousterusa

    Rossi says the verification studies were done ” mainly [on] the ones that have worked to repeat our technology after it has been published in 2009 by the Patent Office,” and I would presume part of the IH effort here was to spot and stop IP poaching by competitors who want to claim Rossi’s innovations as their own. As for the Americans involved, I would think the JET Energy / Peter Hagelstein Nanor work at MIT would be among the first they’d look at. I am surprised they didn’t study the Energetics work now at University iof Mo., or work by Michael McKubre at SRI.

    • Maxfield Q Norse

      It is rather early in the game for cashing in the rights issues chips. The profit in suing comes after the money is flowing and the business well established. I think you are correct in looking for the financial edge in this. If you look at the flip-side of your idea, Perhaps they are simply preparing to lock down the technology with a patent application storm to protect their position and stonewall the competition.

  • clovis ray

    hi kasom

    would that be, because they can, they could actually black out everything, because it means very little what the public thinks, because their first costumers will be , small plants , co-op generators, and the like, something that will use a mw or more,

  • friendlyprogrammer

    NASA, and The Kimmel Grant, MIT, Miley, …. Could meant a few folks.

  • Mrbond

    Perhaps the Swedish company he is referring to is Volvo. He did mention earlier that Volvo was working in the Lenr field. I am not sure if they have ever filed a patent in this area.

  • Tom59

    With this hint from AR, using patent info could be an interesting approach for MFMP to demonstrate validity of the Rossi effect.

    • Mr. Moho

      There’s no guarantee he’s telling the truth and I would suggest MFMP to ignore most of his claims at least until more reliable individuals can confirm them. I find extremely unlikely that he honestly didn’t remember whether he and his team successfully replicated one (original post) or three (amended version) LENR patents among all publicly available/known ones.

      Also, if you check out the Rossilivecat website, you can read among his latest comments his thoughts on open sourcing his technology and open source software in general. While not open sourcing his technology is his choice (although morally very debatable), he’s just plain wrong on the open source concept and open source software in general. His very website makes extensive use of open source software and he does not even realize it.

      • Maxfield Q Norse

        Had you considered the possibility that he simply updated the post with the latest information?

        • Mr. Moho

          If he’s really attempted replication of all known LENR patents as he’s written in the past, the chance that he wasn’t immediately aware whether just one or three of them all worked is very slim. Just my 2c.

          • Maxfield Q Norse

            Maybe the team actually doing the work gave him an update.

            Why must everything be high intrigue, and deception?

            • Mr. Moho

              He’s edited his comment within minutes of submitting the original version on his blog. I am unable to picture him asking for more updated information from his team as he’s posting on JONP, or his team following his comments in real time and urging him to update his latest one on that subject (again, as if he didn’t know already what worked and what didn’t).

              More than likely, he edited his comment because if the first version were true then it would have been a huge hint for competitors, while if it were the opposite then it would have been too specific.

              • Christina

                Mr. Moho,

                Perhaps he edits right after he submits because English is his second language, he learned it as an adult, and by golly, he’s talking about science. So upon rereading what he posted, he wants to clarify even if that clarification seems 180 degrees from what he said before.

                Mr. Rossi is a scientist, extremely busy, his mind is agile in science, but manipulating a second language could be giving him a little problem and he finds that he wasn’t quite as accurate as he wants to be when he publishes and someone points his words out to him or he realizes he made an error.

                Now, I am not a scientist and don’t know exactly what you are all taking about, but I was eleven when I came to this country and know about learning second language as an adult because I watched my parents. They didn’t have to learn complicated scientific language either. Of course, I know that what I think is complicated might by baby food to Rossi, but, come on, the man is swamped and must learn to write physics, and other science in English which it seems he learned in his fifties–a herculean task.

                So please give him the benefit of the doubt because he, being busy, can make mistakes blogging, and upon discovering he made a mistake, can correct it. It shows humility.

                • Christina

                  I could be wrong about when Rossi learned English, but no matter when, it’s still a herculean task to be blogging in it about science when he has a jillion other things to do.

              • Maxfield Q Norse

                Still nothing to see here, no deception, not intrigue. Only editing.

        • We know that Rossi has been spending his time mainly on the 1 MW plant, meaning, I think, that the attempting replications and competition watch is being handled by another team. I imagine someone updated Rossi after they saw his post with the latest info or maybe he went back and double-checked after his post to make sure he was up to date.

          I certainly don’t think there’s anything concerning about the edit.

      • I think you have to distinguish between a technology that requires massive investment to get to where it needs to be and should be and things like software.

        An open source LENR reactor built through live open science is a nice dream but look at the money that MFMP is getting. Is that the level of funding required to make LENR a pervasive technology?

        The fastest most efficient route to getting LENR deployed is via financial incentives and capitalism.

        • Bernie777

          LENR G Good post I agree.

        • Robert Ellefson

          I don’t think you can extrapolate the experiences of the MFMP to conclude that open-source LENR is not feasible. Their experiences are born of their particular circumstances; were they different circumstances, their fundraising may have been more bountiful.

          • I don’t mean to imply that it’s not feasible. It’s just not going to win in this particular case, and as a strategy for Rossi et. al. to adopt would be seen, yes, as altruistic but ultimately would probably have the effect of retarding investment and kneecapping the technology in its womb, starving it of much of the R&D, testing and manufacturing efforts that need to get done right now.

            Companies like to do stuff they can make buckets of money doing. This is the time for heavy lifting, not for burning buckets.

            I expect that eventually there will be a vital and invaluable open source LENR community, especially if the technology is as straightforward as it seems to be from the outside. But it’s not going to lead the way.

    • clovis ray

      Could MFMP be the replicators he was speaking about in the usa, who else could it be,

      • ecatworld

        Hi Clovis, the MFMP has not published a patent yet. Industrial Heat is apparently doing their replication work by copying the processes outlined in patents — so it must be someone with a patent already out there.

        • clovis ray

          maybe we could hear from MFMP, and find out what they think about who it might be, and what they are up to these days.they are always doing exciting work, over there at quantum heat. i would like to ask what they thought about our experiment over at leap forward lab,

        • pelgrim108

          the he has a team at Industrial Heat –> that he has a team at Industrial Heat (delete my comment please)

      • Maxfield Q Norse

        Excerpt from the article above:
        ” Rossi has said in the past the he has a team at Industrial Heat whose task is to try and replicate competitors’ technologies based on patent applications in the public domain.”

        So no not MFMP, a team from IH.

      • My first thought was Miley/Lenuco.

        • MasterBlaster7

          Nah….Mitchell Swartz of JET Energy Inc……I would put good money on it.

          • Maybe so. He’s been awfully quiet after being on the verge of full disclosure a few months ago. Makes me think his efforts have been swallowed by a larger fish.

            • MasterBlaster7

              Nah….Mitchell Swartz is an experimental grinder…he is mapping out all areas of LENR that he can think of…I know he has JET Energy Inc…but I think he just wants to make breakthroughs and license them to someone like Rossi. It would be too mean to call him a patent troll…more like he just loves to grind away on his LENR experiments and rack up the intellectual property like a squirrel gathering nuts for the winter.

              • He has Nanortech too which he created to market nanors. He also sorta kinda promised everyone pricing info for the nanors and general availability… and he teased MFMP, saying they could maybe have one to test. The only explanation that works for me as to why none of these things has happened is that a commercial interest has entered the picture in the interim and has taken him dark.

                But maybe I’m reading too much into it and he’s just cranking away in his lab as usual.

                It’s gut-wrenching cause a couple of dozen working nanors sent to labs around the world could change the conversation almost overnight.

  • Maxfield Q Norse

    I wonder, were the three reproductions which produced anomalous amounts of energy in retries of previously failed reproductions, or from a new set of reproduction tests? Maybe the reproduction team is getting better at their job as they develop new tool and skill sets to approach the task. If it was from new reproductions, they should re-visit their earlier work.

  • I guess the patho-skeps will see this as just another “Rossi Days” but I find it significant.

    For LENR to not be real, skeptics, this would have to mean that not only is Rossi lying (and he has proved to be truthful on most occasions), but he is lying about competitors who have made their own independent assertions of working LENR reactions and/or devices, who apparently would also be lying.

    That’s a lot of lying going on.

    At some point it’s got to dawn on a few folks that the likelihood of them being mistaken is actually larger than the likelihood of dozens of loosely connected people working in concert to weave a complex lie.

    • Maxfield Q Norse

      Patho-skeps should not waste their time or ours saying this is only “Rossi Says”, about something which is simply “Rossi giving a casual response” to a blog inquiry.

      Until then it is just “pathological-skeptic says”. Blah, blah blah. Reading that is as enlightening as watching them drool into their oatmeal.

  • Mr. Moho

    Three? That’s not what he’s initially written:

    • ecatworld

      Looks like he edited it. I think Rossilivecat gets a copy of the blog posts as they are initially written.