Rossi: ‘Vast R&D’ Underway in Coupling Solar Plants with E-Cat

Here’s an interesting exchange on the Journal of Nuclear Physics which give a little indication about how E-Cat technology may be deployed in the future:

Dear Andrea Rossi,

Have you considered using solar cells to improve the effective COP of the Hot eCat units? Conceptually, each eCat reactor unit would be connected with a heat exchanger where the average temperature of the heat exchanger surface would be 600C. I have not gone through the specific calculations so the added power may not be worth the effort and expense. Something to consider.

Andrea Rossi
May 25th, 2014 at 7:14 AM
Steven N. Karels:
We are making vast R&D regarding couplings with solar plants. I cannot talk about particulars, due to the necessity to avoid pre- publication of patents in course of application.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

As we’ve discussed before here, solar power could certainly be a source of energy that could be used to ‘drive’ E-Cats, either using PV cells to produce electricity, or direct thermal energy — since a heat source is needed to initiate and control the E-Cat reaction.

It might also be worth mentioning that Cherokee Investment Partners who formed Industrial Heat in the past have worked in the area of converting brownfield sites (contaminated and abandoned ex-industrial pieces of land) into solar farms.

  • Omega Z

    “thermal energy output is about 4 times higher than electrical input.”= COP-4

    Scientifically this is fantastic. However in the real world it is only interesting.
    A Heat pump can do the same without the huge expenditures to bring this to market.
    Conversion rate to Electricity isn’t much better then trading dollars for dollars. COP>6 is the minimum to make it Financially worth getting excited about.

  • GregL

    I find this news deeply worrying.
    I can see no engineering reasons to fit ecat and solar together – they operate quite differently.
    If Rossi really is pursuing this line of approach, then the only thing I can infer is that ecat cannot stand on its own – so it does not work as we would all hope it should

  • Freethinker

    Still more…

    http://t.sr.se/1nPrvXl

    “The blind fate in cold fusion”

  • Freethinker

    There is a new radio show published on the swedish Vetenskapsradion.

    I have made a translation:

    http://bit.ly/1inae44

    In my opinion example of very bad journalism, a very derogatory piece. Judge for your self. There are great support for LENR in general and ECAT specifically in Sweden, but the skeptopaths are also present, and they are not without influence – apparently.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      This appears to be a case of slander. Rossi should think about a libel suit.

      • TomR

        Yes he should, it might head some others off at the pass.

    • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

      only that ? 8O
      thanks for the transcript…
      what is S Coyaud doing there ?
      Is the journalist of her family to only hear her ? not even Mats, not even Krivit, levi, Essen, Hoistad, Tjonborn, some are even local…

      laughable. even for a skeptic, laughable.

      Should remember that journalis to make a shame of him later.
      I thi,k that if as a community we cannot help LENR to get out of the trench, as a citizen organization we can organize a citizen tribunal to shame a dozen of pathetic deniesr,
      from Lewis,Hansen,Huizenga, Parks,Taubes, Morrison, then Coyaud, that journalist, Luc Allemand, Futura Science mods, few watchdogs…
      Not for any current reason, but so that next time the next denier lane and their watchdogs, know they will be toasted.

  • Kevin O

    The reason Rossi & IH are “waiting” is that there’s a huge difference between being able to generate an anomalous effect and having an industrial product that works with five 9’s efficiency.

  • Bernie777

    Good Point

  • Ophelia Rump

    It would require a very small solar cell surface area.
    This would make the solar cells less costly to burn through.

  • Fortyniner

    Is it possible to abandon something you have never had any concept of?

  • Fortyniner

    It’s possible that as the technology improves and a working theory emerges, that Rossi reactors will probably be started up from a small battery that recharges as soon as power is produced. For instance, some kind of cascading ‘starter’ might amplify a tiny input to the point where it will kick start the main reaction.

  • Fortyniner

    “If you had a machine that produces 4 times thermal output from input, there is no need for research”. So in a nutshell, because Industrial Heat are not attempting to sell fireclay-sealed tubes for some unspecified purpose and have opted to develop commercial products instead, you have a ‘bad feeling’ about it? And why do you suppose that your feelings have some bearing on the findings of the Levi report?

    Isn’t it rather more reasonable to assume that Rossi is now IH’s ‘blue sky’ man, and is free to play with whatever ideas occur to him, while professional R&D people get on with the job of developing the first generation product or products? Or is your comment just a convoluted way to get to the punch line about the Levi report?

    • GreenWin

      “Another shill bites the dust.” Apologies to John Deacon.

  • Bernie777

    Good question Frank, from Rossi’s answer it is clear he is developing solar/E-Cat reactor for places without consistent electrical power and therefore the reactor will be a source of water.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Is there a massive photon release in the E-Cat reaction?

    This idea seems a little wild to me, but if they could produce light directly from the heat or the reaction, then they could just dump that light on existing solar arrays day and night.

    Solar panel record efficiency of 44.7% was measured at a concentration of 297 suns.

    A Line Inverter is about 95% efficient.

    So in theory you could get about 30% of the light power you put on the solar array output as market ready electricity. That seems competitive with LENR to steam.

    If you can pump the power into a plasma discharge you could power sodium plasma lamps with a density much higher than sunlight. And those output extremely little heat, most of the power comes out as light.

  • Alain Samoun

    Take this test from from http://lenrftw.net/are_lenr_devices_real.html#.U4NqInZXdA0
    I get a 90 score even including DGT that I have never trusted.

  • Barbierir

    A radio serie in 3 parts, it sounds as a full front attack against the swedes who supported Rossi, (with warm regards by Gary Wright):

    “Medier blir medspelare i misstänkt energibluff
    Vi på Medierna i P1 har tidigare berättat om tidningen Ny Teknik och
    kritiken mot hur dom i många dussin okritiska artiklar skildrat
    italienaren Andrea Rossi, som påstår sig ha uppfunnit en maskin som kan
    lösa världens alla energiproblem – men inte låter någon få titta in i
    lådan och se hur det skulle gå till. Nu har Vetenskapsradions Marcus
    Hansson gjort en stor granskning och kan visa nya fakta om vilken stor roll svenska journalister och fysiker spelat för Andrea Rossis verksamhet.”

    http://sverigesradio.se/sida/avsnitt/372368?programid=2795

    http://freeenergyscams.com/andrea-rossi-new-3-part-story-starting-on-tuesday-27th/

    • Freethinker

      They have an audio file there, but there is also an indication that there will be more the Tuesday 27th.

      The investigative journalism does not go any further than simply reciting classic patho-skeptic stuff, and interview with disgruntled journalists who has not been invited to demo’s.

      Major point is that Rossi today show the same modus operandi in his schemes, setting up a “journal” and using media to help perpetrate the scam, as he did at the time of Petroldragon. They also play heavily on the history of Rossi with Petroldragon, the environmental pollution, and that he was sent to jail. Also they made a major point of the fact that Rossi is NOT an “engineer” by training.

      I further find that they have a go at NyTeknik, Mats Lewan, Essen&Kullander et.al, etc, etc and also SVT for having a positive TV show segment on it last year.

      The journalism is of low level, more looking after framing than objective and balanced reporting. Quite in the spirit of Mr Wright’s creations.

      I wonder what the coming program will contain then. Likely they will invoke any and all “new” and old findings of Mr Wright and his associate. Likely they will sound very persuasive and matter of fact. Note Mr Wright’s comment: “We have been in communication with Marcus Hansson and expect this show to cover much new ground.”

      Its a pity that they chose to do this. It could be seen as a timely attack with the new report being peer-reviewed this very moment. But not to worry. Likely, the joke will be on them. ;)

      • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

        thanks for the report.

        Of course they did not invite Mats? living too far!

  • Palmie

    I agree too. I have been monitoring news of LENR for 25 years and this increases my doubts on the whole E-Cat thing.

    • Fortyniner

      25 years seems rather a long time to invest in something you apparently doubt is real, especially if you find yourself doubting more as the evidence for LENR mounts. Perhaps when the proof becomes incontrovertible you will move from doubt to outright skepticism?

  • GreenWin

    If one were challenged to introduce a truly disruptive technology — a transitional hybrid is useful. For example, GM attempted to introduce electric cars in the US with the EV1 back in 1996. While a bit crude technically, it worked fine. But the market and consumers were simply not conditioned to accept it.

    The next year Toyota introduced the first mass-produced hybrid electric / combustion vehicle, the Prius. Prius took off slowly, but with the help of green & celebrity endorsements became the best selling hybrid vehicle in the world. Today, every major auto maker sells a hybrid or full EV.

    Similarly solar and NG are the transitional elements to LENR. Solar is an acceptable way to wean the West off of fossil/fission fuels. A solar+storage E-Cat is a hybrid gimmick. But solar and NG distributed energy resources are already shaking the utilities industry monopoly:

    http://blogs.barrons.com/incomeinvesting/2014/05/23/barclays-downgrades-electric-utility-bonds-sees-viable-solar-competition/

    The philosophers behind this transition path have made a wise choice.

  • jonnyb

    Not very useful for the U.K. though.

    • Fortyniner

      Aw, c’mon… I’ve seen the yellow thing in the sky at least twice this month.

  • Omega Z

    Hadn’t thought of that angle. Maybe they see PV becoming efficient enough in the near future to be cost/benefit usable. Especially if a COP of 18 or 20 is obtainable.
    Great starting point in 3rd World Zones even if PV is around 20% efficient.

  • Omega Z

    It’s highly likely that LENR will take at least 5 years before it starts to take off. The Only existing technology close to fitting the E-cat is likely the existing designs for Nuclear Power Plants.
    But even those would need a major revamp in design.

    It amazes me that back in the 40’s & 50’s, Society could design a project/product & have it under production within a year.
    Today, we can spend a year or even several years talking about something before design even starts.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I am fairly sure that industrial heat has a couple of product designs ready for production.

      I’m waiting to hear about sales. Reports are nice, but the first round funding will not last forever. They need cash flow to establish and maintain credibility.

      • Omega Z

        I think Industrial Heat may be working with several Entities at this time who are studying possibilities. I have my doubts as to them building anything themselves at this time. $11 Million doesn’t go very far these days.

        That & Rossi’s statements seem to imply Licensing Others to develop & build products. I think they are just studying improving the basic Reactor technology for adaption so others can make best use of it. That would be a full time occupation all by itself.

    • Obvious

      I bet if the typical child’s slide or teeter-totter were invented today they would not pass safety testing and never get to market….

  • jousterusa

    Interesting. In a recent note I mentioned that Randell Mills, who was stymied by the fact that he could produce a very powerful “spike” in energy that he could not temper and control, hit on the solution of using photovoltaic (solar) cells to absorb light hotter than the sun and turn it into electricity. I think AR is trying the same thing.

    BTW, for those of you interested in novel sources of energy, there is now a piece on The American Reporter about a 2,300-ft. “Solar Wind Energy Tower” that has been approved for funding and construction at the US-Mexico border in San Luis, AZ, It is the third story down on the yellow ticker, and is a worldwide exclusive. It will be the second-largest human structure on Earth.

    • Ophelia Rump

      This is a very interesting idea. It makes me wonder why we do not hear about this OU device from MIT. A 250% efficient LED light.

      MIT Researchers Create LED Light That Exceeds 100-Percent Efficiency

      by Mark Boyer, 03/24/12

      Read more: MIT Researchers Create More Than 100-Percent Efficient LED Light | Inhabitat – Sustainable Design Innovation, Eco Architecture, Green Building

      http://inhabitat.com/mit-researchers-create-led-light-that-exceeds-100-percent-efficiency/

      • GreenWin

        Academics are finding themselves cornered by their own paint brush. This is the result of declaring hard and fast “laws” in science. But many of these “laws” were invented centuries ago. The notion that they will remain inviolable is like saying, “the climate never changes.”

      • Fortyniner

        Amazing how the reporter skirts around the issue while recording the key facts. Efficiency of over 100% becomes “unity efficiency” rather than ‘over-unity’, and the elephant in the room – the question of where the additional energy might come from – is ignored as if it simply didn’t arise.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          Peter, I understood (by looking at the abstract of the original paper http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.108.097403) that in addition to the electric power input, they also heat the diode to be warmer than ambient, that’s where the energy comes from.

          • Fortyniner

            Thanks, Pekka. That’s rather disappointing, but at least solves the (nonexistent) ‘mystery’! Heat-to-light conversion might turn out to be useful though, if the effect can be moved up the power scale somehow.

  • SiriusMan

    Could it be that introducing the E-cat as a technology for ‘enhancing’ existing energy sources (solar, natural gas) is part of a deliberate political strategy? Of course we all know that LENR has the potential to render those sources obsolete, but for IH to claim that from the outset would quickly incur the wrath of large & powerful business interests.

    Coupling the e-cat to solar would also paint LENR as a green-friendly technology, and minimize the backlash to anything with the word ‘nuclear’ in it. The environmental lobby would be more likely to come on board..

  • Owen Geiger

    It takes a lot of time and effort to bring new technology to market. The patent/legal side alone requires a staggering amount of work.

    In the meantime, I see no reason not to investigate promising market opportunities. IH can multi-task. They can afford to throw millions of dollars at this.

    IH is not trying to convince or win over average consumers like us at this point. They know it works and I believe they’re hard at work on a well thought out plan. They want to ensure they have the upper hand (best technology available) before the trillions of dollars in investment money is available to the competition.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Because everything but the solar panel is needed to support the E-Cat, and solar panels can never fully utilize that existing infrastructure.

  • Charles

    That sort of staggers me. I was cruising around thinking E-Cat would rid us of solar and wind ALTOGETHER.

    • Ivone

      No. It requires energy to start the reactor. So, on a hot African or Indian day, connect the reactor to a medium sized solar farm, say 100,000 watts, and three hours later, the Rossi reactor is up and running.

      • Owen Geiger

        Concentrating solar technology is big in India: Sun Focus quarterly magazine (free online)
        http://www.in.undp.org/content/india/en/home/library/environment_energy/sun-focus/

        The magazine profiles commercial operations for dairies, brick drying, commercial kitchens, power plants, defense, hospitals, every business imaginable even clothes ironing shops. Case studies explain costs, payback period, details. E-Cats could be integrated with these systems.

        • Ivone

          The E – Cat and solar concentrators would be a good match in hot (and not so hot) countries. Would it work in north England, where I live? Winter, solar becomes useless.

          • Owen Geiger

            Of course. One size shoe does not fit all.

        • jousterusa

          As recently reported on the news, the Koch Brothers are bent on ending subsidies for solar and wind, since they are in the fossil fuel business. They are trying to get laws that gives solar users the right to sell power back to the grid repealed state by state. They have not had LENR on their radar yet.

    • Ophelia Rump

      It will. Once all the solar and wind sites electrical hardware have been repurposed for LENR it will rarely make sense to use wind or solar again. Until then the solar/wind market is a super highway to the grid.

    • Fortyniner

      Rossi is probably thinking of places where there is little or no fuel, and no electricity, such as middle eastern and African deserts. As far as the rest of us are concerned it seems quite likely that solar and wind will become irrelevant quite rapidly.

  • Alain Samoun

    Solar cells(PV?) don’t make too much sens to me to provide the necessary heat to a working E-Cat as we know it. Maybe Rossi means a coupling to a source of heat provided by a solar high-temperature collector?

    • Paul

      Right observation. I think that PV field makes sense if the E-Cat plant is for an area where there is no an adequate electric infrastructure, and the solar high-temperature collector makes sense for an area where there is no an adequate gas infrastructure, because at least one version of the Hot-Cat, probabily, will be gas-fired.

      • Alain Samoun

        What I mean is that the high-temperature collector can be used with an heat storage (salts?) that can release the necessary energy when the sun is down. Still not a very good system as the e-cat can also be used to store the energy the same way…

    • Omega Z

      Maybe this is for isolated areas where Grids do not yet exist thus no way to fire up an E-cat. Several of Cherokees personnel are involved in places of this nature. 3rd World zones.

  • mcloki

    Well if India wants solar. You give them solar.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I think they want to go to market, but they have not found a profitable electric production scenario.
    Otherwise for off-grid they would run off batteries and recharge the batteries.

    This I find troubling.

    • Paul

      They need heat, so batteries are not a good option (they are not an option also for PV plants, where incentives are needed at the current prices, at least here in Europe). The solar source is enough to start a big stand-alone plant made of several units producing electricity, part of which would be used to power the plant itself. This is perfectly feasible with a COP > 15 for the E-Cat unit, as I expect from the Third Party Report.

      • Ophelia Rump

        My apologies for changing my posting Paul.
        Your response is a good one for what I originally wrote, but what I wrote was not well thought out. Sometimes my thoughts are not even close to being developed until I read them and question them myself.

  • Paul

    From this news, I guess IH wants to create stand-alone plants for Africa or similar relatively low developed areas. This type of plants, being not grid connected (or at least not at significant levels for power input), would be also the best and “final” demostrator of validity for E-Cat’s technology.

  • Buck

    We citizens of the 1st world cultures seem to forget that a good 50% of the world’s population does not live near a stable inexpensive source of clean safe energy.

    Not only is there the benefit of making friends with the Solar industry, but there is the humanitarian benefit of bringing power to areas which likely need power for simple things like food preparation, cooking, a clean source of potable water, waste treatment, etc.

    Rossi and Cherokee are true to their core values and are pursuing reasonable R&D areas for their LENR technology, IMHO.

    • Omega Z

      Agreed
      What makes little sense to us makes much sense in other parts of the world. They are starting from scratch. These would be seeding operations & it will take many years to bring them up to what we consider the norm.

      • Buck

        I have my fingers crossed with the impending LTTP report.

        A reasonable sense of optimism says that Rossi would only be sharing IH’s pursuit of this type of R&D if there was a strong-very strong sense that the Industrial E-Cat is workable and ‘easy’ to engineer into operational design.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    I agree with those who criticise the idea. However, maybe AR didn’t answer exactly the same question that SNK asked (it wouldn’t be the first time such happens). “R&D regarding couplings with solar plants” could mean many things, for example it could be as simple as scheduling to run electricity-producing gas-cats when electricity price is highest i.e. when renewables are silent.

  • ecatworld

    There are various kinds of energy storage systems that might be used.

    • Bernie777

      Why not just retrofit exsisting coal plants?

  • Hope4dbest

    I don’t see the logic of coupling the Ecat with a source that only produces power a few hours a day. How could a solar panel control an Ecat at night?

    • Mr. Moho

      I think solar power might still have some uses for E-Cats installed in remote locations without access to an existing power grid, especially low temperature ones which would be unable to provide electrical power on their own to make their electronics (control and monitoring systems, etc) work.

      Solar panels alone would likely not power those systems directly, but would recharge one or more batteries which do.

    • Christopher Calder

      Right. Solar is a waste of time. These types of ideas spring from people who still think renewable energy is a good idea, not the tragic economy crushing disaster that it actually is. This fad won’t last because the pure LENR energy producers will undersell the solar and wind devices.

      • bitplayer

        Might solar plus storage require less maintenance that LENR?

      • bachcole

        Solar was a good idea before the government started to get involved and started to incentivize it and mandate it. When the market ruled and not Czar Obama and his minions of wide-eyed idealists, people bought solar when it was economically wise to do so and not when it wasn’t economically wise to do so. Now it has become an albatross around our collective necks.

      • Private Citizen

        Solar cost/price curves are diving, soon to be cheaper than coal. Production of the panels not only is becoming cheaper, but more energy efficient and environmentally friendly. Advances in cheap batteries, inexpensive, efficient hydrogen production and other innovative off-line storage &/or transport technologies such as long-distance grid delivery abound. Solar is here to stay–and if LENR proves to be a bust, it is our best hope.

        Statements like “Solar is a waste of time” might go down in ignominy with “Heavier than air flight is impossible,” “I think there is a world market for maybe five computers,” “We don’t like their [The Beatles’] sound, and guitar music is on the way out.”

        • GreenWin

          PC, stringed instrument music has been “on the way out” since the Egyptian harp in 3000 BC! :)

    • Owen Geiger

      See my post above about the Sun Focus quarterly magazine. There are many variables. Sometimes solar is practical. Rossi is wise to investigate how to integrate E-Cats with the appropriate system.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Smart move. The people who feel the most threatened by the E-Cat are the solar panel researchers. So, turn them into allies.

  • Bernie777

    I just do not see the advantage of coupling Rossi reactor (Nickle Energy) to solar cells, compared to a stand alone reactor. The energy to start/run the E-Cat is not a critical variable. Someone please explain.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Combining E-Cat technology with existing plants, of whatever kind, would have two advantages. First, provided that the plant could run both with and without the E-Cats, the risk of a failure of the complete system would be minimal. Without the E-Cats it would work just as good as it did before. Secondly, there are already a huge number of power plants in the world, which could be retrofitted – potentially a gigantic market. IH would be well advised to take this opportunity.

  • theBuckWheat

    e-Cat renders solar power obsolete. And e-Cat will not be anywhere near a vulnerable to EMP as PV solar panels are. Any EMP event, whether natural or a “man-caused disaster”, will instantly fry every PV solar cell that the pulse can reach.