Mats Lewan: Defkalion 2013 Demo ‘Proven Not to be Reliable’

Mats Lewan has written a new post on his web site about last year’s demonstration put on by Defkalion Green Technologies in Milan where they live streamed video of one of their Hyperion reactors purportedly demonstrating the production of excess heat.

The post includes information from Luca Gamberale, formerly Chief Technology Officer of Defkalion Europe who explains to Lewan that the output heat measurement was erroneous based on the way the experiment was set up. In a report detailing his concerns about the experiment, Gamberale concludes:

“Despite the importance of the findings, DE has decided to give DGT some time to provide unequivocal evidence that the DGT technology was immune to the criticisms raised by DE. However after several months and despite continuous and constant request to provide the relevant documentation and/or to repeat the experiment, no answer has been given so far. DE has now been put out of business. Consequently, I decided to make public the results obtained on the DGT technology stating that the experimental protocol proposed by DGT is not trustworthy.”

Lewan has been in touch with Defkalion CEO Alex Xanthoulis, who does not dispute the findings of the report, but does insist that the technology is valid, and that temperature measurements on the bare reactor show that excess heat is being generated. There are two spreadsheets included in the report provided by Defkalion to Gamberale showing data from measurements on a bare reactor.

Xanthoulis also told Lewan  that five contracts have been signed with potential partners, but no money had yet changed hands. He stated that the development of a new reactor is ‘on track’ in the next months reactors would be sent to a Canadian certifying body.

  • Obvious

    For every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert.

  • Veblin
  • clovis ray

    Hi, guys.
    Dr. Rossi, has stated that they had nothing, they say they stole Dr, Rossi’s secret sauce, while he was out of the lab, i would say even if they had the secret, they would be challenged if they try to use it, but i will take Dr. Rossi’s word over DGT anytime,IH/ Rossi has all the marbles, and can still say who can play.

    • Obvious

      It could be a catch-22 for DGT even if they did manage to illicitly get the secret. Having it instantly would practically prove they took it. Then they could also have serious patent infringement problems if they tried to use it. So even if they could build a working Rossi device, they would have to modify critical components extensively before demonstrating it as a significantly and substantially original and novel embodiment. Otherwise it is a copy-Cat.

      • clovis ray

        i agree buddy,

  • Obvious

    Rossi claims to have never transferred the critical tech to DGT. DGT did not come up with the cash required by their deal with Rossi in the required time. That was the end of that business relationship. DGT then apparently tried to steal the critical knowledge, and then trooped on with their best guesses after that, hoping to fill in the missing parts of the reactor by the time it came to showing it off, perhaps (or obviously) not so successfully as they hoped. Not much more to the story than that.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    DGT state on their provisional website:

    “Currently we are developing our R 6 technology in our three laboratories. We are doing this using robust calorimetric methods, without the use of water coolant, based on both positive and negative experiences we have gained.”

    Maybe they are working with an IR camera, as the examiners of Rossi’s Hot-Cat did.
    I wonder why they don’t use a fixed amount of water, which is pumped from a large, well insulated container to the reactor and then back to the same container. Measuring the water temperature before and after the test should be sufficient to determine the generated energy.

    • kasom

      sad to say, but all of the LENR competitors avoid this simple check.
      The same is with the simple proof via a closed loop with net energy measurable coming our of a configuration without input energy.
      Or do someone know about any proven device elsewhere, that ran over a significant time feeding itself from the energy generated??????

      • LENR G

        I don’t think this can be said about Rossi/IH (that they avoid this kind of check). They have made their LENR reactor available twice now for testing to an an independent group without restrictions on what they could measure or how they could measure (save not being allowed to open the reaction chamber and analyze the secret sauce).

        It’s entirely possible that the latest third party testing did use some kind of closed loop or limited energy testing. I hope they did. I wish they had the first time. They probably thought measuring the input electricity was sufficient, but they underestimated the need for unquestionable results.

        Whatever they did this time around I hope it is thoroughly convincing.

      • Pedro

        My understanding is that Rossi let his 1 MWatt “plant” run in selfsustained mode for several hours in october 2012. That was the test that “failed” because only 0.5 MWatt was generated during that period. See Mats Lewans book

    • Andreas Moraitis

      And if there are doubts about the energy input – a blank run without fuel should at least be able to answer the question if some anomalous heat is produced. Both methods have been proposed repeatedly on several forums.

  • Barbierir

    DGT they have enjoyed the benefit of the doubt for almost 3 years and this is the result, now the ball is in their court: either they allow independent measurements or we can assume they’re only hot air.

    • AB

      Well said. Defkalion looks like a fraud. I’m glad Gamberale has acted responsibly and communicated on this issue.

  • NCkhawk

    DKG’s behavior has been consistently bad since inception. They did not come up with funds for the Rossi contract, they claimed to have “lifted” the fuel secrets, they came to Canada for easy research dollars and potentially unscrupulous access to public equity markets and have exhibited unprofessional behavior at about every turn. They lash out at anyone who attempts to call their bluff, even threatening legal action for re-quoting their public statements. They were busted in Milan by an EU partner who had invested $1M (and has now lost more than that amount for being honest and demanding accountability) and by National Instruments who spotted “incorrect” algorithms used in calculating data from the flow meters. No one is going to give them upfront funds for a license with this kind of tract record. These people need to just go away.

  • georgehants

    From Science Alert
    Physicists have demonstrated unlimited heat conduction in graphene
    Everyone’s favourite super material is now challenging the fundamental laws of heat conduction.

    • LENR G

      Carbon is a nanotechnology playground. Graphene. Diamond. Buckyballs. Nanotubes. Graphite. Foam. Each with extreme (and extremely useful) or uncommon properties.

    • Andy Kumar

      If biologists had demonstrated unlimited heat production in stem cells, I would be worried about physicists. It is physics guys doing their thing to make OUR lives better. Leave them alone. Let us not loose perspective here.

      • georgehants

        Andy, agree with your point re. many scientists are honest true people working for the best.
        But until the administration stops teaching students etc. that the ridiculous religious Dogma that they proclaim and teach as Facts is put right, then all those scientists are letting science down by their closed-minded attitudes, leading to the loss and delay on many subjects beside Cold Fusion.
        Science is an open-mind and one can observe on these pages the petty need for many to condemn before the full Evidence is available.
        I do not discriminate between say biologists and physicists, they are all at fault, of the above errors and a horror like the crimes of Cold Fusion etc. effect the public perception in every area.

        • Obvious

          A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.
          – Max Planck


            But Kuhn argues that Planck’s famous remark overstates the case.

            *Neither proof nor error is at issue.

            *The transfer of allegiance from paradigm to paradigm is a conversion experience that cannot be forced.

            *Proponents of a paradigm devote their lives and careers to the paradigm.

            *Lifelong resistance is not a violation of scientific standards but an index to the nature of scientific research itself.

            *The source of the resistance is the assurance that

            – the older paradigm will ultimately solve all its problems.

            – nature can be shoved into the box the paradigm provides.

            *Actually, that same assurance is what makes normal science possible.

            *Some scientists, particularly the older and more experienced ones, may resist indefinitely, but most can be reached in one way or another.”

  • Owen Geiger

    Where will the first E-Cats go on sale? China?

  • Bernie777

    I hate to repeat myself but……….DGT is going to give LENR a black eye, I hope Xanthoulis goes to jail…….. Xanthoulis, 11/29/11, “I know what is in the reactor. I know everything. It was done with spectroscopy at Siena University of Padova (…) They tested the reactor without [Rossi] knew what they were doing.” Bull!!

    • Going to jail would be a failure…
      I hope they can demonstrate their technology, even if it is weak with low COP…

      I hope… but I prepare for anything.

      I won’t even be surprised if they have something usable and they tried to fool Luca (who is hard to fool) just to avoid industrial spying…
      Whatever their did it was stupid.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    In the Milan demo, there has also been an issue regarding the input of the HV generator. Defkalion’s instrument displayed 216.3 W, while Lewan had measured about 1 kW with his clampmeter: (The episode starts at 50:35)

    Hadjichristos’ answer does not sound convincing to me. He should have tried to explain the different readings instead of being evasive.

    • measuring apparent power with a clampmeter is not really meaningful to measure the real power.
      You need a powermeter that integrate voltage and current over each instant…
      Mats and Defkalion can be right if there is either strong phaseshift (probable with a HV converter), and high current deformation (typical with switch power, typical with HV converter too).

      the main problem is that the powermeter is not independently chosen and installed.

      the big problem with Defkalion demo is that the instruments were installed by Defkalion, not by an independent tester…

      from what I have heard, the main critics are on the water flow, where the flowmeter may be resonating with the steam pressure to make vibration looks like real water flow.

      in a way it is a water equivalent to the apparent-power to real-power difference we discuss with electricity…

      some instruments cannot make the difference between a power that oscilate (like the deforming or reactive power, or oscilating back pressure) from one that flow normally (real power, or real water flow).

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Yes, with an ordinary ammeter you will get wrong readings if the waveform is not exactly sinusoidal. My impression was that Lewan measured the input of the HV generator, not the output. Since the input came from mains, there should have been no major problem. However, we don’t know for sure what he has actually measured and which type instrument he used. But he is competent enough to know all the possible problems.

        • if you measure the current from the mains, you will suffer from phase shift and harmonics that will show you an apparent power much higher than the real power in…

          Note that Luca Gamberale confirms that the electric power was well measured.

          The only claims of luca, is that the water measurement is broken.
          He politely ask if it is a 2 years delusion, and I modestly think it cannot be so.
          I can only hope that they fooled Luca only, not all their clients and the testers.

          Question is whether Nelson was fooled.
          Note that Nelson insisted in avoiding boiled water, which may have led to good results.
          However the report is not precise enough (just few notes).
          Maybe did Nelson measure the real COP of Hyperion, about 3…

          Defkalion have no other choice than to make good third party test like Rossi did at last.

          Really Defkalion have hurt LENR deeply.
          All skeptics will try to fool the public by saying that if defkalion tried to fool Luca, then no evidence can be trusted even a thrid party test…

          and physicist will sure applaud without reading, as usual.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            You are right, especially in Southern Europe I would not guarantee for the mains. Besides, there might be another problem: If the HV generator wouldn’t be perfectly insulated or shielded, there could be some leakage, either direct or via the EM field. In this case, I would not trust any of the electric measurements. But that’s a very speculative thought.

            • Obvious

              FWIW to this conversation, the DFG HV transformer was identified from the video, and is rated at 230V, 50Hz, 5A, 575W from the label. It is designed for a neon light.

      • Fortyniner

        Regarding water flow rate, this is best controlled and measured by using positive displacement pumps (piston/peristaltic) linked to data loggers recording rotations/time. Many types of indirect flow sensor can be innaccurate under certain conditions, especially when flowrates are low. If liquid calorimetry is the method adopted in the second tests I hope we will see this method used if coolant leaves the system or passes through any kind of heat exchanger.

  • jousterusa

    When he wrote, “a new reactor is ‘on track’ in the next months reactors would be sent to a Canadian certifying body,” I think Frank meant “a new reactor is ‘on track’ AND in the next months reactors would be sent to a Canadian certifying body..”

  • Christopher Calder

    I think Defkalion’s device is very real. There is no question that they have their own unique technology, because it uses high voltage sparks to break the H2 gas into H1, not chemicals. I think Defkalion’s scientists are honest people and will produce a product that works despite delays and problems in testing. It is difficult to develop a test that everyone agrees is trustworthy and valid. Both Rossi and Defkalion need to make a product perform useful work. That is the fool proof test.

    • Obvious

      Rossi made public the news release regarding the DGT split, and then essentially no comments beyond that. He did suggest once that a certain group had a “mock up” that was waiting for the addition of the functioning part. I suggest finding and reading Christos Stremmenos comments at JoNP. They were more informative.

      A good start is on these pages:

    • I have mixed feeling, of extreme level about DGT.
      I know they have complex governance problem.
      When Stremmenos said they were megalomaniac, it was too general but partly true.

      The report of few clients, with no money, make the claims more realistic, and give me back hope.

      Some serious guys I’ve talk too, just said me their business model cannot work as-is, because big money upfront is not possible given the current skepticism, which make funding very difficult (this makes Industrial heat investment an evidence of huge confidence).
      Beside that I have good report on the competence of part of the team.
      However adding all up, all I had until recently is good feeling, and just a preliminary report by nelson.
      Now I have the report of Nelson which is not definitive (especially if nelson was treated like Luca Gamberale), a huge warning with an insider alarm by luca Gamberale, a long list of bad feeling by old apes, a shorter list of positive feeling, and no more evidence.

      Given the reaction of Luca Gamberale I have no doubt something stinky happened in Milan. Question is what and who, just stupid or clearly evil, or smartly nasty, paranoia, manipulation or fraud,…
      Too many hypothesis to say anything, else we should be very cautious.

      The solution is to wait for Defkalion to show their technology seriously, like what did Rossi.
      Or wait they collapse, and if the technology is real, that their asset are sold to a new team.

      Any interested party, should do it’s usual “Due Dilligence” like what did Industrial Heat and Elforsk.

      I still have hope, but also huge concerns and fear.
      Clearly I was too optimistic.
      The capacity that allowed me to discover LENR, and that is lacking physicist and deniers, is that I can be wrong and change my mind facing evidence, and even suspend my judgement until more evidence of either side, yet have volatile hope, fear and opinion.

      conviction is temporary, and optional.

      • LENR G

        That Mose (nee 50% of Defkalion Europe) did not perform due diligence before signing an agreement with DGT is very disappointing (and shame on them).

        That DGT (apparently) did everything in their power to prevent Defkalion Europe from performing corroborating measurements of the reactor stinks real bad. The flow meter may not be working right but the scam-meter is now flashing bright red and issuing an ear-piercing alert.

        DGT needs to publish some credible validation reports in a hurry. Will they react at all… or just continue to make promises?

        • I don’t know the details, but maybe was that demo part of the required dud dilligence.

          as Mats says in his book one rule of tests, is to do it in private first so you can moan on the provider and ask for better test, without causing a tragedy.
          the second is when the partner ask for improvement or additional test, you obey.

          the huge concern in what happened is that Defkalion did not obey.
          there is two possibilities :
          – either they cannot show a device working (tragic for us about credibility)
          – or they don’t want to convince (thus want to break with DE).

          The last hypothesis is : they are not rational.
          Given the fact that they tried to fool a partner (STUPID), this is not to exclude, and since it is a company with various actors, it can be a governance problem.

  • LENR G

    This deserves careful analysis but here are a few early questions I have.

    Is there any good explanation for DGT’s treatment of Defkalion Europe? They entered into a huge, key agreement with DE and then failed to even let them verify the reaction for themselves despite repeated requests and opportunities, before and after the calorimetry debacle.

    Is DGT’s behavior after DE’s “betrayal” (that is, the unauthorized independent calorimetry experimentation in Milan) warranted? Could they have decided to cut ties at that point (with good justification) and thus were uninterested in proving anything to DE?

    To what degree Is the worst case backflow calorimetry (apparently around a factor of 7 or 8) mitigated by the assumption of water upon exit (versus steam as observed). Seems they might cancel each other out to some degree.

    Is there anything in the DGT live demo that indicates the engineers were trying to keep the reactor in this range where backflow pressure made the flow calorimeter overcount? Is there a smoking gun?

    What’s up with those spreadsheets? If DGT was really trying to placate concerns they whiffed badly — just threw some poorly-defined data over the fence.

    Good thing Rossi/IH have independent validations with IR camera measurements otherwise we’d be back in flow calorimetry/steam quality hell. If DGT and Rossi are both scamming they are using different tricks.

  • Mark

    I think I’ve posted this before, but I think it bears repeating. When Rossi originally said that the Defkalion folks did not understand the inner workings of the E-Cat, I thought that was difficult to believe given how close Rossi has worked with Defkalion in the past. However, the more and more the bad news seems to be piling up on Defkalion, the more and more likely it looks that Rossi is right about that.

    • LENR G

      I thought that, out of all the possibilities, Rossi being legit and DGT scamming was the least likely (execpt for Rossi scamming and DGT legit which… no). However things have been trending in that direction recently. Rossi is about to be validated by a 6 month test report while DGT flounders under accusations and exhibits strange, unprofessional behavior. I still hold out some hope for them though.

      Just because DGT held things close to the vest and the DE fellas found a way to trick a flow calorimeter does not mean it’s all been BS. DGT disallowing corroborating energy measurement techniques does not sit well with me though.

      • Omega Z

        Consider every time Rossi has a delay, DGT shortly after announces a new timeline/delay.

        Consider that DGT may have a fully working device, but doesn’t produce excess”OU”.
        There already to go, but need the sauce to make it complete.
        Rossi said they didn’t steel his secret sauce.

        You know, as paranoid as Rossi is “With Good Reason”, Maybe he placed a non working sauce in the cat in case they did something shady when he wasn’t present. As DGT Claimed they did.

        • I have reports that Defkalion is paranoid about having it’s powder spyed…

          maybe they stupidly imagined that they could fool Luca, not to show the powder…

          but if true, why did not they simply give the good one and “say sorry to have tried to fool you”.

          • LENR G

            I have a hard time reconciling that they could be so diabolical that they would put on a fake show for ICCF-18 while simultaneously trying to fool Gamberale, but then be so careless as to leave the “reactor” with Gamberale… who they *knew* wanted to test it on his own using his own calorimetry techniques.

            Stupid sloppy in the scammer scenario.

            Which makes me think that DGT thinks/thought the reactor worked fine and that the flow meter issue is/was a non-issue.

            Scamming, incompetence and real-deal rounding the corner and heading for home, neck and neck.

        • LENR G

          It fits. It would be very ugly behavior by a number of people (at least 3 DGT’ers knowingly committing fraud and planning theft). Behavior that had about zero chance of actually working while exposing them to great risk of financial ruin and loss of freedom. So not just ugly but stupid too.

          But I guess money does strange things to people.

          I’m not ready to throw in the towel on them yet though. Like any good tragicomedy there are bound to be a few more twists.

  • Daniel Maris

    I find DGT a bit of a distraction.

    My main concerns are (a) what are the latest E Cat test results.

    (b) if those results are positive how soon can we expect to see pilot E Cat operational units generating electricity or distributing heat. Anything longer than 6 months must call into question the genuineness of the test results.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I agree, the only question with DGT was did they actually steal the secret of the E-Cat as they said they did. Phones cancelled, doors locked. I take that as a no.

      • LENR G

        The Defkalion Europe affair has thrown them into crisis with damaged credibility and sending them into a financial wasteland. But it’s possible DE is incorrect that the calorimetry flaw indicates a non-working reactor.

        Like if I were an aspiring baker and claimed I could bake incredible cakes… and then Sara Lee came in, turned my ovens up to 800 degrees and burnt my cakes. Doesn’t mean I can’t bake cakes. Just means the equipment can be misused.

        Note that Sara Lee loses a potential competitor. Just sayin’.

    • Omega Z

      How long since we originally picked up on the Chinese R&D facility. How long prior to that did discussions begin. They just signed papers. Maybe in a couple months they’ll ceremoniously spade the 1st shovel of dirt to start constructing the facility. See where I’m heading with this. It’s going to be a while.

      Facilities to manufacture systems will need built. Every component needs designed from the ground up. Plant facility automation layout & setup.

      Note: Siemens finished expanding their Turbine/Generator plant by 500K sq-ft in North Carolina around July, 2012. A couple months ago, I read that it still isn’t fully operational. Their still training personnel. In 2 months it’ll be 2 years.

      As an on looker, I’ll be perfectly content with a Very Positive 3rd party test & report. With that, Everything else will come about in due time. Just Not in our due time….