Rossi: IH Unable to Replicate LENR from Competitors’ Patents

We’re under quite an information blackout from Andrea Rossi and Industrial Heat these days — there will apparently be no major news about technological or commercial progress until the Third Independent Party report is published — we hope by the end of June. I don’t think this news means that nothing is going on — probably quite the contrary, actually.

Andrea Rossi did mention early this morning that one of the activities going on at IH headquarters. In response to a question about what he was working on, and whether Rossi was concerned about the growing number of patents that were being published by potential competitors:

He,he,he, yes I am working and casually online in this moment to check the JoNP’s blog ( I can do this now and again, when I have some relax). We are working very well with our R&D in this period. But it is not 3.30, it is 3.03 a.m. In this very moment I am working on the gas fueled E-Cat prototype.

About the question: we are replicating all the experiments published from our competition, reproducing exactly what written in the patent applications or patents that are published. We are doing this work, with two our specialists, to check the worth ( the real worth) of our competition. Honestly, no results came out which could confirm the claims. So far. Obviously, the History teaches that sooner or later the competition will be born, but not so far, albeit we are not aware of the R&D of our potential competition whose results are not published.

It’s interesting that IH is putting so much of its technical resources in trying to replicate competitors’ technology — which sounds like a preemptive move to get ready to defend its own patent positions (although so far there is no E-Cat patent except in Italy). Perhaps the results of the the independent testing will be used by IH in a push for patent approval — and the apparent lack of results from competitors’ patents will be used to strengthen the IH case.

I note that Rossi is being realistic in regards to the long-term outlook with regards to competition. I imagine that they fully expect at some point that competition will catch up, and they will surely be trying to prepare for a time when they are not at the head of the pack — which is apparently the position they seen themselves in at the moment.

  • Guru

    My counterproclamation: No one is able to replicate LENR from Rossi’s patent.

    Prove I am wrong !

    • jonnyb

      Maybe Dafkalion could?

    • bachcole

      Apparently Darden & Vaughn did it. Rossi sent them the plans and details and Darden & Vaughn replicated it. That was back in 2013 or 2012, and that is why they are in business together. If you want me to prove that, I can’t. But I will stand by it nevertheless.

      • Obvious

        Proof is a slippery eel indeed…

      • jonnyb

        Oh yes and did he not prove most of the others as well. Good memory Bachcole!!!

  • Fortyniner

    I agree that GE is a classic morality-free corporation, and their involvement would not be through any concerns for the welfare of the common man. Unfortunately the size of the task (replace all fuel burning and nuclear generation capacity on the planet with CF) is beyond ten such companies, and ways must be found to constructively engage virtually all energy corporations in the process.

    I’m sure that Ross et al. will do their best to keep their ideals alive but it’s hard to imagine any system of patents or agreements, no matter how seemingly solid, that will prevent the corporate reptiles taking over before very long.

    • Obvious

      GE of course does “charity” type work. The employees of GE are not heartless automatons doing GE work. Sure, there may be some tax breaks, but I don’t think that is the bottom line for GE goodwill gestures.

      http://www.gefoundation.com/

  • jonnyb

    We need to find Andrea’s Pseudonym, bet he is on this site?

    • Mr. Moho

      He would probably stop participating if you actually found him, though.

      • jonnyb

        True, or just change it.

        • psi2u2

          I am Andrea Rossi. I am indipendent. Can’t you tell from my comments?

          • builditnow

            I be could Andreas Rossi too, lit me check ID card, ahhh, I seemsa to have missa placeda it, oh well, perhapsa I am, maybea not … :)

  • Obvious

    I just saw that Rossi mentioned testing other patents to rank last June also, so they have been at it for a while now.

    “By the way: I have given to 2 of our US scientists the task to work full time
    for 1 year to replicate all the existing patents of LENR in the world, to
    analyze which of them can work. We also analyze the theoretical claims, checking
    with the instrumentation we can use, very complete, if the supposed radiations,
    fusions etc really happen. We are making this work both for scientific purpose
    and for understanding which patents work and which ones do not work).” June 2, 2013

  • Omega Z

    Frank

    An interesting Note:

    I Think it was McKubre stated something to the effect that a dark horse may soon be ready for market & It was not Rossi.

    There was Also a recent poster on a recent thread who seemed pretty knowledgeable about Rossi & the possible Theory.
    This Poster also stated something to the effect, That Rossi wouldn’t be the 1st who brings this to Mainstream News Media. Another implied Dark Horse statement…

    And Rossi’s statement about an unnamed competitor…

    “albeit we are not aware of the R&D of our potential competition whose results are not published.”

    Rossi has hinted more then once about a serious contender in the past, But Never to my knowledge indicted who that would be.

    • hempenearth

      “Catherine” the 10kW reactor from Clean Planet – Japan

      • Obvious

        I am looking forward to more updates from them.

    • Obvious

      Rossi: “Dr Brian Ahern and his team have a strong preparation , and they do not need my help. I believe they will be first in the race to be my competitors in the market.” June 23, 2011

      Rossi: “The work of Celani (congratulations) shows that in my patent application I gave enough information to allow to an expert to reproduce the effect” Dec 22, 2011

  • LukeDC

    Off topic but interesting. China is seriously curbing the growth of coal and gas fired power stations.

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/carbon-economy/china-slashes-spending-on-new-fossilfuel-power-plants-20140501-37ior.html

  • AstralProjectee

    This sounds like a piece of information that Rossi shouldn’t have given out. Although they haven’t replicated anything yet.

  • Shawn Wierzbicki

    In the end markets will decide if unhindered by some “disruptive technology” claims.

  • Bernie777

    Interesting, seems IH (or the company behind them) might have a sophisticated game plan. Watch your potential competitors while you aggressively improve your product to increase the lead time you will have over IP hijackers.

  • Sanjeev

    I agree with JDM below that its fruitless to replicate something solely based on a patent. A patent is intentionally written to give away as less information as possible while covering as much ground as possible for future court fights.
    So if they could not replicate anything, it only means that the patent writers have done a good job. Of course it can also mean that the patents are just papers and nothing works, but its better to remain inconclusive and not take a decision based on that.
    Anyway, I thought they are working towards the goal of manufacturing a million Ecats per year, but it looks like they have enough time and money to do this not so necessary work.

  • GreenWin

    Dan Nocera has an interesting catalyst to split water. He started at MIT calling it the “artificial leaf,” apparently he is now at Harvard. As Dan notes, generating H2 is a good energy carrier – but impractical without a fuel cell or combustion engine; or oil&gas industry’s favorite, combine H2+CO2 to make synthetic liquid fuels. Dan/CNN take the non-disruptive approach to energy – claiming no invention or discovery will “displace hundreds of trillions of dollars’ worth of investment in an energy infrastructure.”

    Welcome to the future Dan. Out at SRI, SPAWAR, University Missouri, NASA Langley, etc. they’re makking nuclear level heat from H2 infused metal lattices, aka LENR. By summer end we should have a good idea of E-Cat’s long term ability to create heat. Energy infrastructure is already changing.

  • Fortyniner

    “In this very moment I am working on the gas fueled E-Cat prototype.”

    Optimistic interpretation: ‘The’ prototype means a functional test unit, and Rossi is making final adjustments and mods while it undergoes in-house trials.

    Pessemistic interpretation: Rossi has a bench prototype that is looking reasonably hopeful, but there is no product in sight yet.

    I am resisting the urge to post “Enough with all the little hints, just keep quiet until you are ready to tell us when you are going to release the bloody product.” on JONP. It will be clear that although I am still working on my zen-like detachment from all this, that I am not having much success.

    • Matt Sevrens

      The Gas E-Cat isn’t even the best version of this tech. It just has advantages for people who don’t have access to electricity. I would imagine it’s far less efficient.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Natural gas is much cheaper per kWh than electricity. With a relatively low COP, an electrically powered reactor wouldn’t be economically attractive. Only with a very high COP it should not make a big difference if gas or electricity is used.

        • Fortyniner

          Also, if you are replacing a gas-fired generator (the most common fuel type now) there may not be sufficiently heavy duty electrical power supplies available, but of course there will an adequate gas supply.

    • Barry8

      Ram Dass is good for that last part Peter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIAg59KMCRI

  • ecatworld

    Thanks for the link FR — the energy market is huge, and I think new technologies will make sense depending on consumers’ needs and the various economic factors involved. While almost everyone needs electricity there is also is a vast need for heat in all kinds of settings.

    Rossi today also said this about the gas-powered E-Cat:

    “We are working on a prototype. This night I was working on the design. Made many tests and corrections; is an important application, for obvious reasons, since gas price in the USA is quite low. I cannot say anything specific, of course, until the technology is mature for industrial applications.”

    So it seems there will be competition from the old hydrocarbon sector too.

    • GreenWin

      This is the product type that will upgrade a small gas-powered CHP system. Such a product is an easy transition from gas-only powered CHP, like fuel cells and Honda, Beacon10 stirling engines. For light industry already using CHP, e.g. the building at One Bryant Park in New York City, installing just one 1MW E-Cat would provide a 20% reduction in fuel costs.

      Rossi/IH are ready to exploit the low cost of NG in USA and the fact some 50M homes and small businesses use NG for heat energy.

  • Ophelia Rump

    It is not enough to just be first to market, if a competitor follows you into market with a superior path of technology they can steal your market. There are a variety of paths which LENR can take. It is a smart bet to invest the effort to verify that your competition has not chosen a superior path.

    There will be a number of forms of LENR on the market in the near future. What are the factors which will make one dominant?

    Safety, COP, Price, Design, Applicability, Reliability, Scalability.

  • JDM

    And others cannot replicate Rossi’s results from his patent application. Doesn’t mean none of them work, doesn’t mean any do work. Everybody must have their own secret sauce, eh?

    • Fortyniner

      Astute point. No-one is prepared to divulge their most sensitive and critical secrets in patent disclosures – especially if the patents are rather unlikely to be granted anyway.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      And the risk appears to be low, since the patent examiner will hardly try to build a described device in order to see if it works… However, competitors could claim later that it does not work, and therefore challenge the patent. Maybe IH are just preparing themselves for such cases. Provided that this strategy would make sense under the current law, they should better disclose everything in their own patent applications.

    • Obvious

      I was under the impression that Ahern and Celani (separately) had replicated Rossi, but with low power due to lack of catalyst.

  • bachcole

    I found this to be the most important: “He,he,he, yes I am working and casually online in this moment . . . . .” It sounds like he is doing great and doesn’t have a care in the world.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Yes, his tone is much different, much more relaxed. Like a runner who is a full lap ahead, and then some, he has the luxury of looking back and assessing the field.

    • Bernie777

      Yes I agree, after following Rossi for many years, I like the man, and after listening to him deal with all the snakes, and super skeptics it is great to realize he is enjoying himself doing what he likes to do.

  • Andrew

    Meanwhile, GE offer to buy the Power and Grid businesses of Alstom for $13.5 billion. http://update.gepower.com/media_en.html

    • Ophelia Rump

      What is it you take away from that fact?

      • blanco69

        It suggests to me that GE are not expecting Rossi’s gas fired ecat turbine into the market in the short or medium term.

        • Sanjeev

          Or that GE is not in lenr picture.. Its more likely they are totally unaware.

        • Fortyniner

          I think the focus and lead product is likely to be a CF boiler designed to replace fossil-fuel boilers of similar capacity. Following behind may be the modified gas turbine (flash steam?) that Rossi has mentioned.that could potentially replace gas turbines of similar specification.

      • GEkko

        It extends the distributed power generation, distribution and service framework into which GE can drop LENR, accelerating e-Cat impact once IH releases it.

    • Billy Jackson

      do you understand how much money this has the potential to make?? if the e-cat works .. you have power plants servicing customers with a lot smaller overhead costs which brings more profits. the e-cat will not immediately discontinue the current power grid. if anything demand will go up as it becomes cheaper.

      them offering 13.5 billion shows that they know the energy sector is about to get very profitable due to cheaper electric generation.

      From The Article
      Alstom’s Power business provides equipment and services for integrated
      power plant solutions for a variety of energy sources, including steam,
      hydro, coal, gas, nuclear steam, wind, and other forms of renewable
      energy. In fiscal year 2013, the business had €11 billion ($15 billion)
      in sales and €1.05 billion ($1.4 billion) in income from operations, and
      46,000 employees.

      one year they make 15 billion. add in the e-cat and the profit margin goes up. suddenly this looks like a dream deal not a “e-cat doesnt work deal”

      • Buck

        Your point is strong. Further, Alstom is regarded as a world class player in this market.

        Note, on pg 34 of the Alstom report for the fiscal year 2012/2013 ending 3/31/13 breaks out the different sectors of the business. The Thermal Power generation sector is approximately 45% of the whole company. Your figure appears to include Renewable Power which likely will lose value with the introduction of an industrial LENR device.

        LINK>> http://www.alstom.com/Global/Group/Resources/Documents/Investors%20document/Financial%20results/2012-2013/Annual%20results/FY12-13%20Notes%20annexes%20version%20anglaise%20270513.pdf

      • Barry8

        So you’re the one who makes all of those Guest votes.

        • Billy Jackson

          actually had clicked on the wrong person to respond to, I had written it out. and went to put it under the right person with copy/paste and all it did was say you posted this before and took my name off it :)

          anyone not registered to the site can click your up vote as a guest. i dont think it requires you to be registered. so when an article gets linked and a non-registered user likes what you had to say.. they can vote you up or down.

    • GreenWin

      Billy has it mostly right. Alsom’s business is not particularly successful. Their grid business generated $300M income, their power generation business had $1.3B income 2013. Add these two numbers together times the multiple 7.9 for the total transaction valuation of $13.5B. Alsom is under-performing at a time when France is challenged to phase out nuclear power.

      The 7.9 multiple is the most important number. It means Jeff Immelt (GE CEO) believes Alsom has 8 years earnings potential without growth. Immelt has something planned for Alsom. Possibly improving grid sales/income by adding distributed generation via their new Distributed Power unit. Steam turbines are Alsom’s core power generation business – any new GE technology would improve their sales/income potential.

      In short, at a time when nuclear powered France is facing a transition to renewables – 50 cycle gas turbines is a great product to control.

      • Buck

        GW,

        If GE believes that LENR is just around the corner (i.e., within 1-2 years) then what you suggest doesn’t make sense. The advent of LENR will ‘destroy’ historic valuations multiples for the simple reason that the revolutionary tech will simply displace existing technology . . . companies with no path to transition will lose value rapidly. Companies with a path to LENR will see cash flow growth that simply breaks valuation multiples.

        IMO, GE is picking a price on the belief that it will help close the deal. If the seller believes the 7.9 multiple is a rich valuation, so much the better for GE.

        • GreenWin

          Buck, on the contrary the multiple & deal have been approved by Alsom’s Board and major shareholder. It seems fair. And Immelt predicts immediate $.08-.10/share earnings increase for GE stock at deal close (2015.)

          Infrastructure adapts to technological change gradually e.g. horse & buggy to auto, rural electrification, ice house to home refrigeration. Not to be confused with consumer products like cell phones/tablets. IF Immelt is aware of real LENR product potential, he would need a pragmatic time frame for first commercial product introduction. He also needs key global markets. France will phase out nuclear, politically this has begun.

          The fact we know LENR will not be monopolized by one company or nation allows all sectors of energy to provide solutions. GE might be thinking that LENR needs eight years to see a major commercially proven product (e.g. >50MW turbine.) Meaning, the Alsom acquisition provides growth and valuable new market.

          • Buck

            GW,

            ??? The information I currently am aware of indicates the deal is not closed and Siemens has until the end of May to present its own bid to the board.
            LINK>> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/30/us-alstom-offer-idUSBREA3S0US20140430

            Regarding the transition for the Global Infrastructure, I agree, it will take decades to shift the large majority of existing tech to incorporate LENR where feasible and appropriate. However, at the individual company level, I think the transition is far more rapid and has an immediate impact on cash flow: they either have an industrial LENR powered system for a given market, or they don’t. And, they will remain competitive by rapidly evolving the particular LENR system along all the product dimensions, e.g. size, COP, ease of maintenance, time between maintenance, %downtime, etc.

            The big issue that still unknown is: what does the upcoming 3rd Party LTT say.

            • GreenWin

              The Alstom CEO and Board have “received the offer positively” and appointed a committee of “indipendent directors” to agree by June 2. Next will be shareholder and regulatory approval.

              As I have mentioned there will be no monopoly on LENR. Every energy related company will have an “LENR compatible” product or service after it is commercially introduced. Immelt is aware of Elforsk’s tests AND work done at NASA Langley for aerospace – GE Aviation employees are contracted to design the LENR implementation of SUGAR. All a CEO at Immelt’s level needs to do is announce that a GE division is working on LENR and “will have industrial LENR products in their commercial chain around 2020.” That’s the power of a large multi-national

              • Buck

                Hmmm . . .

                time will tell whether Siemens or GE provides the winning bid to the Alstom Board.

                Both are argued to believe in LENR. Therefore, neither should be constrained by the 7.9 multiple as DCF is a superior basis for establishing valuation. Time will tell how each truly values the opportunity the Alstom assets provide.

                • GreenWin

                  Buck, note the acquisition yesterday of Pepco by Exelon for $6.8B. Pepco is an investor in Blacklight Power and may gain access to BLP’s broad patent portfolio. Looks like a Hail Mary to me.

                • Buck

                  GW,

                  If I look through an optimistic lens, presuming remarkable results for this 3rd Party LTT, results which are ‘known’ to players within the Energy Production/Distribution industry, then I believe the number and value of deals will go increase.

                  Which companies will be the winners, in one sense, doesn’t matter as LENR will have arrived.

                  This is what plain optimism tells me.

                • GreenWin

                  Completely agree Buck. Happy May Day!

        • Ophelia Rump

          Drop one major LENR power plant into a non-profitable grid and you will have a profitable grid. Without the ability to displace existing generation systems, you cannot be a major player in the LENR-Electric energy sales market. The cash is not in the production of LENR devices but in the control of the output.

          • Buck

            Ophelia,

            I would expand your thought to say that anyone involved along the ‘value chain’ of LENR will be in the position to make money at the expense of their competitors.

          • Billy Jackson

            I think the Industrial / military adaption to LENR will be far faster than the commercial adoption rate of the individual simply from supply and demand.. your industrial interests have to much money for you to compete with. The first supplies of e-cats they can offer, demand, and get more from the supplier of e-cats than you ever will.

            This impression that everything is going to implode at once is wrong. the energy companies supplying electricity stand for the next decade to make record profits.

            Electric cars
            Vertical farms
            Laser Beamed Energy to Arial Drone/blimps
            Agriculture
            Desalinization

            oil and coal stand a chance to be hurt in the mid term.. but energy companies are about to boom.

      • Bernie777

        I agree it is a great buy, betting on applying improved GE power technology.