Private LENR R&D requires permit in Germany?

I thought this was a point that readers here might find interesting. A few weeks ago ECW reader ‘hunfgerh‘ made a comment here that in Germany private experimentation of LENR reactors was forbidden. Today the same poster has more specific saying:

Authorities people from the area of atomic energy act have threatened me with a report to police. For this they could use the term “Nuclear facility”. (Fusion can only made in a “Nuclear facility”). For the operation of a “Nuclear facility” in Germany a permit is necessary. The approval process is very complicated and long. I gave up.”

It’s not clear from the poster exactly what kinds of experimentation, he/she has been doing — whether radioactive or other restricted materials have been involved. It would be interesting to get more details — but if LENR research does indeed require a permit, this is some kind of tacit admission that LENR is a nuclear process — something that has not been seen (as far as I am aware) from any government agency.

Are any of our German readers able to shed more light on this situation? Restricting private experimentation into LENR in an entire nation (especially an advanced economy like Germany) could really dampen scientific progress in this field — and if other countries followed suit in placing restrictions on LENR it could become a major issue for this field of research.

  • Gordon Docherty

    The most quoted “law” I see in any discussion involving something new is the Second Law of Thermodynamics. It’s quoted like one of the ten commandments every time there is a suggestion of more energy out than in – even when looking at LENR, which is (likely) transmutation and/or fusion and/or fission, all of which are capable of ejecting mass as energy, so apparently seeing more energy out than in (this is my definition of nuclear: anything that converts mass to energy or energy to mass, not what follows a particular law or not). Further, such Second Law people appear to refuse to even consider the existence of “space energy” (e.g. zero point energy) – the ether – that must be involved – unless they think that “fundamental particles” are just hard bits of irreducible microscopic sand? Of course, they may be thinking of “fields”, but then what are fields – and what about “spooky interactions at a distance”? And so we come back to the “Second Law”, and a theorem now emerging that sees the “Second Law” as just a special case of a more general picture that happens to dominate at the macro scale (that is, the scale well above the nano-sites being explored by LENR / CD researchers). The name of this theorem is the Fluctuation Theorem (FT), and is well worth considering when discussing LENR / CF. In particular, FT now sees the Second Law in terms of probability, where the probability of the entropy of an isolated system tending to increase until it reaches equilibrium (the bases of the Second Law) rapidly approaching one as the system moves above the atomic, into longer time frames and in a region of space where the surrounding “space energy” is at equilibrium. Where these conditions are not met, however, the much cherished Second “Law” begins to break down.

    In summary, then, the Fluctuation Theorem does not state that the Second Law of Thermodynamics is wrong, but rather that it is limited to macroscopic systems. The Fluctuation Theorem is more general, in that it applies to both
    macroscopic AND MICROSCOPIC systems.

    So, the next time someone quotes the Second Law to you, quote the Fluctuation Theorem right back at them. If they know what they are talking about, they should accept your point, especially given the scale at which LENR / CF is occurring.

  • Gordon Docherty

    If working on Metal Hydrides, you just have to say its chemistry – which it is.

    It is also other things as well.

    When you think about it, chemistry, physics, and other “subjects” are really just perspectives on a whole – simplified models with their own abstractions, simplifications, assertions, rules and so on. What is being studied, however, is the whole. What LENR / CF has really thrown up is the artificiality of physics, chemistry, biology and so on as “subjects”: the whole is the subject, the rest are perspectives. LENR is not the first, nor will it be the last “subject” that involves knowledge from many different fields of study to be properly understood. Indeed, it is this multifaceted nature of LENR that has made it both so interesting and so challenging for the mainstream to master – basically, one science discipline, Physics, is being asked to work with another science discipline, Chemistry, while working together with engineers and experimenters from across the investigative spectrum (from the “lets go back to first principles” brigade to the “lets try it and see” brigade). I believe, indeed, that this has been the main stumbling block to advancement over the last 40 years, a situation that is only now changing, namely the “defense of the discipline” mentality that has doomed many a cross-disciplinary project to failure.

    So, to come back to the original point, is it nuclear? Well, it all depends on your perspective…

  • Alain Samoun

    Hey Groucho! you seem to have the good spirit(ism) join us WineGuy and me we have a party!

  • Quiet Wine Guy

    We are seeing the same thing.

  • Quiet Wine Guy

    Yup, that would be the metaphor.

  • GreenWin

    I don’t know about Germany. But in the USA, a teenage kid built a fusion reactor in his basement and is now a media darling! G’bless da USA! http://www.ted.com/talks/taylor_wilson_yup_i_built_a_nuclear_fusion_reactor

  • Omega Z

    Agreed…

    They can raise taxes at any point & time. And as you’ve said & I’ve posted before, The economic growth could dwarf their present tax revenues.
    If, of course, they’re smart enough to recognize that…:-)

  • Sanjeev

    It only looks like a confusion over the word nuclear. Authorities assumed he is into nuclear stuff and took action. There must be a law to conduct the experiments involving nuclear reactions (and bio-hazard stuff) by permission with all safety measures, but I do not think there will be a law to specifically ban cold fusion experiments.
    Anything that is banned gets pushed into dark areas, it does not die. Regulators know this, and also know that if banned, it will get shifted to more favorable countries which are more open and progressive, which means a disadvantage to the country that banned it.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    Free Will is our only choice.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I am not even certain we are an intelligent species, hoping for free will seems like asking a lot.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Benjamin Libet proved that the subconscious was preparing for a hand movement 1/2 second before the conscious decision was made.
        We have free will to abort an action. So, we may better think of volitional action in this case not as free will, but as “free won’t.”
        http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/dont-delay/201106/free-wont-it-may-be-all-we-have-or-need

        • Fortyniner

          ‘Free won’t’ – absolutely excellent!

          My subconscious mind enjoyed that (it made me laugh but I didn’t abort the impulse).

        • georgehants
          • Alain Samoun

            Does that work in Las Vegas?

            • Quiet Wine Guy

              Yes

              • Alain Samoun

                Prove it!

                • Quiet Wine Guy

                  Go buy Dean Radin’s book “The Conscious Universe: The Scientific Truth of Psychic Phenomena”. He outlines the experiments performed by the Un Nev at LV and funded by Las Vegas casino interests concerned about this phenomena, if memory serves me well. The proof is there.

                  He also outlines the experiments suggested above about precognition. Very creepy stuff.

                  Now Alain, disprove it!

                • Alain Samoun

                  I believe you WineGuy lets go to the casinos you and me and rip them off,I do not like them anyway, and with the proceed we can buy an E-Cat. OK?
                  Pass me the bottle please.

          • Quiet Wine Guy

            George,

            here is a 3/25/2014 updated version.
            http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00146/abstract

            If you read one of Dean Radin’s recent books on the subject, you are left to reflect upon the consequences of the unfolding discovery of QM about 100 years ago. (Radin is one of the recognized scientifically oriented experts.)
            http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-author=Dean%20Radin&page=1&rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3ADean%20Radin

            Man is still trying to digest a basic aspect of QM: Action at a Distance without a material intermediary. The advent of QM has made it more acceptable to recognize experiments that fly in the face of orthodox science . . . it sounds like the same challenge faced by CF.

            • georgehants

              Quiet Wine Guy, agreed just like Cold Fusion, but for the slow-minded an open-mind is a problem.
              One has to start all over again with every subject to allow them to catch up.
              ———
              I don’t see the logic of rejecting data just because they seem incredible.
              Fred Hoyle
              ———
              The man who voyages strange seas must of necessity be a little unsure of
              himself. It is the man with the flashy air of knowing everything, who is
              always with it, that we should beware of.
              Fred Hoyle

              • Quiet Wine Guy

                +1

          • Obvious

            Is it precog, or is it actually delayed cognition, since our brains assemble information and then give the interpretation of being in the moment, when in fact time has moved on without our being conscious of it. We are always running mentally behind the activity to prevent mental info overload.

            10 seconds is a bit of a stretch for that interpretation to be the only reason, though.

  • BroKeeper

    Although declaring it in a patent could be a concern and an obstacle.

  • Alain Samoun

    Possible in Germany and anywhere else if you use the word “NUCLEAR”.
    Anyway here is a news coming from the USA:

    Oklahoma residents who produce their own energy through solar panels or small wind turbines on their property will now be charged an additional fee, the result of a new bill passed by the state legislature and expected to be signed into law by Gov. Mary Fallin (R).

    • ecatworld
    • Doug Cutler

      Completely related. Most of these state initiatives to place speed bumps and road blocks in front of rooftop solar are spearheaded by organizations like ALEC – American Legislative Exchange Council – which gets generous funding from the fossil fuel industry.

      Fortunately, most of these initiatives are being shot down. Oklahoma, being a particularly Republican and fossil fuel entwined state, has been a rare exception.

    • bachcole

      Government for the bureaucrats, by the bureaucrats, of the bureaucrats.

    • blanco69

      This is how the established regimes will maintain their hold over the population. Mechanisms will be introduced to keep the flow of cash heading up the chain. The freedom that LENR promises may not come to pass. It’s like buying an electric car and paying a rental premium on the battery. Income streams will be created to drain your resources. The needs of the share holders always come before the needs of the customer.
      Apologies for sounding negative but if you believe that LENR will herald a world of free energy then, I believe, you’ll be disappointed.

    • Omega Z

      My State dealt with this years ago before uncertainty & confusion come about.
      Everything is already separated individually on the Bill.
      Monthly transfer/connection flat fee. About $15
      Energy use- Kwh cost.
      All Government taxes & incidentals Itemized.
      I choose who I purchase electricity from. Wholesale.

      Now, if I produced my own electricity, There would be little confusion. Whats Required. A feedback/disconnect panel(Expensive) that they can control & the transfer/connection fee. All set to go.

      The Panel is so they can terminate feed for 2 purposes.
      1 is if there is no demand/customer, they can stop the feed.
      2 is if the line goes down, they stop the feed so as not to electrocute line repairman.

      Now, If I feed surplus to the grid, I would be treated as an Energy wholesaler. They would pay me wholesale for every kwh produced.
      What energy I Use from them, I’ll be charged as a normal customer.
      You don’t get to use them as a storage battery. And the Government wants there Taxes Etc. I know many may disagree, but It’s standard business practice & the only way it can work.

      Note #1: They will be required to Report this income to Taxing bodies. Yeah, You’ll probably need an accountant like a business for equipment depreciation etc to minimize taxes…

      Note #2: I think the biggest problems here causing most of the fuss is this. The Government has mandated that the Utilities have to pay for “ALL” Energy produced by the Solar & Wind farms. Whether it is used or not. And this is probably the reason you see these Utilities talking $50-$100 dollar a month user fees. Only part of that is for grid maintenance.
      As of yet, this hasn’t hit my area. So Far.

      Gotta Love those Government Subsidies & Incentives. Stranded Assets that the Government put you on the hook for. Pay for it in Fee’s or Higher Taxes. Pick Your Poison.

      • RGlenCheek

        So what about people who generate a regular excess energy, can store it in deep cycle batteries and then entirely DISCONNECT from the power grid?
        What does your state do then?

        • Omega Z

          Similar to a vacant house and the service is disconnected. They don’t do anything.

          I probably should have added above, I’m quite sure this arrangement wasn’t on purpose. It just turned out in a beneficial manner.
          If it was intentional, it would likely have turned into a bureaucratic mess. Kind of like the States Financial situation. Worst in the Nation.

    • Reboot

      Oh, Jesus. Just like Spain. You are doomed, man.

    • Mr. Moho

      I think you’re misunderstanding what’s actually going on. No wonders, given the sources you got this news from, as far as I can see linked here. Apparently, the only people affected will be those who sell back their excess energy to the grid. It turns out many found exploiting the renewable energy incentive/subsidy system to be a profitable business. While they were getting money for essentially doing nothing, on the medium to long run that would have got economically unsustainable for everybody else. It was only a matter of time before somebody started to realize this.

      On the other hand, people who live completely off the grid and/or consume all the energy they produce won’t (and shouldn’t, both legally and morally speaking) receive additional taxes.

      • Alain Samoun

        Yes,there are people on the other side of the fence for who it is amoral to receive renewable energy incentives. They obviously forget the subsidies that their industry has received for oil exploration and production for so many years from state and federal agencies: $4 billion a year according to the New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/business/04bptax.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 But of course Mr.Moho you may not like this source either…. Anyway this was an example of what is in store when CF/LENR systems will enter in the market.

        • Mr. Moho

          Yes,there are people on the other side of the fence for who it is amoral to receive renewable energy incentives.

          Renewable energy incentives are meant to be just that — incentives for people to start out with them for household applications and cover most of the setup expenses over time, not as a source of income. Having an increasing amount of people (and businessmen with pockets deep enough for large installations) misunderstanding them as such (or pretending they are) breaks this system.

          They obviously forget the subsidies that their industry has received for oil exploration and production for so many years from state and federal agencies…

          And you seem to forget that to date, fossil energy sources still are a strategic national asset. Too many things would quickly fall apart without them, and I do not only mean economically speaking. On the other hand, renewable energy is a first world luxury, in most cases.

          Anyway this was an example of what is in store when CF/LENR systems will enter in the market.

          CF/LENR will change everything. It has minimal footprint and seemingly minimal setup costs per kW and per kWh. It doesn’t need a connection to the existing power grid as a backup. No state incentives are needed for them at all as they would immediately render obsolete everything else. With them, everybody can potentially become energy-independent, with no need to sell back surplus energy at overpriced rates to their state (or better: taxpayers) to cover base expenses.

          The news you linked has little to do with them. That is incentive exploitation prevention. Of course, the renewable energy market and news/green sources are making a big deal out of this. But it only shows that they’re still not economically viable as an energy source and likely won’t ever be.

          • Alain Samoun

            “fossil energy sources still are a strategic national asset.”
            Yep,like the Iraq war that cost 3,300billions (According to Stiglitz – Nobel Prize in economics)Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/03/AR2010090302200.html
            Even if Renewable energy incentives can be a source of income for some – You do not give any real examples – I prefer that as to give the money to oil fat cats who don’t even pay taxes (BP Exxon) who pollute the air and the ocean.
            The “green energy market” that you are so much criticizing opens the doors to CF/LENR application.

  • Obvious

    This is a catch 22 for TPTB. If LENR is false, then nuclear products are impossible. If LENR is real, then nuclear products are possible (and may have to be regulated), but this requires admitting it is real.
    Anyways, some characters have tried getting Rossi in trouble over nuclear (gamma) production. As a certified XRF operator, I know that gammas can be legally made and used, as long as they do not leave the inside of the equipment. A non-certified person can legally use a sealed beam XRF unit. The shielding is only a regular sheet of stainless steel, even though the output can be 50keV X-rays. External radiation is background level. Several safety interlocks prevent exposure to X-rays if the lid is opened.

    • BroKeeper

      Agreed – have no angst. In time, enough truth has disseminated to seek its own level.

    • Fortyniner

      The ‘LENR = scam’ meme has been part of the movement to suppress cold fusion entirely. If the intent is now to absorb CF into the electricity generating industry, then this meme will be dumped at some point. It will be no problem at all to change it to ‘LENR = danger’ using the MSM, and if necessary to introduce legislation across the world that equates LENR to nuclear fission/fusion.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Of course private lenr requires no permission in Germany or elsewhere, because lenr at the moment is not known or defined by legislation. That said, if one publicly claims to build a fusion reactor, then radiation authorities might assume that it’s a hot fusion reactor (because what else could they assume) and they might forbid it because of radiation fear.

    Even if someone would badly want to in the future, lenr seems impossible to forbid categorically. The starting materials cannot be forbidden because they are common and double-use. The process and apparatus lack clearly identifiable characteristics. The end products are ordinary elements and heat which are produced also be traditional methods such a normal fire. Of course, commercial lenr devices require safety certification, as do all sellable products.

    In many ways, private lenr is analogous to private computer. Both use bening starting materials and bening process and produce something that can also be produced by other means. A computer produces data (or “advice”) while lenr produces heat. We do not speculate about computers getting forbidden. It seems to me that discussing the topic with lenr is equally unnecessary.

    • GreenWin

      Sounds rational. The guy in Germany probably boasted about building a nuclear reactor or, this is all in his mind. An American kid, Taylor Wilson is a TED talk media hero for building a fusion reactor in his basement: http://www.ted.com/talks/taylor_wilson_yup_i_built_a_nuclear_fusion_reactor

    • Fortyniner

      I’m not sure that the fact that no radioactive materials are used is relevant, if even a small amount of gamma or neutron flux over background is produced. That would be enough to trigger a clampdown in most places.

      Regarding your analogy, if someone builds a high power laser, or a rail gun, rather than a computer, you can be reasonably sure that the sky will fall on them if the fact becomes public, no matter how benign the construction materials, and regardless of the lack of any directly relevant legislation. I’m not saying (obviously) that LENR is in any way a parallel, but the ‘authorities’ could easily manage perceptions so that it seems that way.

  • http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/ barty

    I don’t know the laws about nuclear devices and facilities, but germany is a very bureaucratic country. Everything has to be checked felt 20 times or more.

    I also guess if you submit an application and you use the wrong terms (e.g. cold NUCLEAR fusion) then the authorities are going crazy, especially the green parties.

    This is ironical. How could something that allegedly not exists (cold fusion) be dangerous? That’s germany, and that’s why more and more german companies migrate (at least partly) into other countries where it’s cheaper and easier to research and develope. And with them the good educated german engineers and researchers.

    • Fortyniner

      A number of people have suggested that using the words ‘nuclear’ and ‘(cold) fusion’ to describe anomalous heat was handing a large and convenient club to the opposition. Too late now to do anything about that, unfortunately.

      I have a feeling that Germany is just the first country to make this move explicit, and that the rest of the ‘West’ will follow their lead, along with the BRICS countries in due course.

      • BroKeeper

        When the public comes aware of the benefits, pressure will be applied to amend the laws.

  • clovis ray

    yep, the next best hope was A.R, but he sold out, the thinkers among us, need ti figure out for our self, how to build them so simply it would be hard to catch them all, ha, my goodness how could someone try and paint lenr with the radiation brush.

    • Fortyniner

      Audaciousness often works, especially when carried out in concert – like the worldwide attack on vitamins and supplements that already criminalises the dissemination of information about non-pharmaceutical remedies and the sale of many herbs and high-dose vitamins in Europe and Australia.

      The truth doesn’t matter if you can use all the major channels of communication to spread your lies to influence the ignorant, and especially if you can use the police and security ‘services’ to enforce your will.

  • Fortyniner

    If this is in fact the case, then it would appear that TPTB are not even going to bother with having new legislation enacted in order to confine LENR to corporate monopoly control. Instead they may just be going for enforcement of a ban on the pretext of ‘nuclear’ danger, without any intermediate steps. The general public would not see any difference between ‘low energy nuclear fusion’ and ‘nuclear fusion’, especially if the media are used to muddy the water, and so would allow this potentially very disruptive technology to be simply stolen from beneath them.

    If in our various countries we see a sudden switch from denial and ridicule to acceptance and ‘concern’, perhaps accompanied by scary images in the MSM of blue-glowing plasma within the likes of the ‘hydrobetatron’, then we’ll know that this is to be the way things will go. It’s very hard to fight the apparatus of State enforcement, no matter how obviously fake any rationale behind it may be.

    • Donk970

      This will definitely happen. Once the “cold fusion is a hoax” angle quits working, it is inevitable that the “it’s fusion and therefor too dangerous” angle will be tried.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        As soon as it is clear that LENR is harmless governments will probalby allow it, but at the same time they will demand abundant taxes. We should not be so naïve to think that we will one day be able to use LENR heating systems or cars almost for free. If the revenues from tax on oil or gas are in danger to decrease, new sources of income will instantly be created. Governments have practiced this perfectly for thousands of years.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          I think that lenr cannot be meaningfully taxed. Instead they can increase e.g. the existing taxes for buying, owning and using cars, for owning real estate as well as the “recycling fees” of various goods and materials. Can be done largely without new legislation.

          • BroKeeper

            Somewhere in between.

          • bachcole

            Leave it to Pekka to be non-paranoid and reasonable. But of course, he lives in Finland where the government actually works for the people and not the other way around.

          • Omega Z

            Pekka
            If nothing else, They raise income taxes.
            They don’t like to. It upsets the masses & many will be voted out of office. Many pointing the finger at others. But they will do it.
            Hey, their cronies have a nice overly paid job waiting for them.

    • toomanychanges

      China, China, China….

      Do ecatworld readers think the Chinese ruling authorities would choose:

      A) to continue supporting civil-peace-threatening coal power, budget-and-military-peace threatening oil imports, and extended subordination to Western environmental technologies,

      instead of

      B) an opportunity to get a handle on their air pollution problems, remove their chips from the quagmire of Middle East politics, stick it to Western oil companies, trumpet superiority on the AGW issue (regardless of who thinks it’s real) and leap ahead of the rest of the world in a fundamental industrial technology?

      Well, maybe, but, if so, what is a reasonable theory of why they would make that choice?

      • Fortyniner

        It seems unlikely that any country will seek to continue to suppress LENR, for a variety of reasons. However it seems overwhelmingly likely, for an equal or greater number of reasons, that most States might seek to control the technology by attempting to deny it to private individuals and smaller companies.

        • Omega Z

          49′er
          The Cat is but a small part of the Big picture. 1 part of a 10,000 piece puzzle.
          The thing that will moderate the Roll Out is all the other things that will make it usable. Boilers, Turbines, Generators, 100′s of millions of Absorption systems, 1.1 Billion vehicles, 100K ships, 10 of 1000”s of planes, 1000′s of desalinizing plants, All the Factories, Mills, new mining facilities, Etc, Etc… And so many things we can’t imagine yet.

          And while doing all this, The Day to Day life that needs to be maintained.

          How long to build our present society & all the above. How many are without. It will be like rebuilding our entire system twice, three times over..

          • Fortyniner

            Unfortunately if CF becomes the private monopoly of the existing energy cartels, probably only LENR boilers for retrofitting will be required initially, or at most, mass production of smaller generator sets based on existing gas fired models.

            Monopoly control would permit a slow rollout of LENR-generated electricity (+CHP possibly) at a speed designed to minimise damage to existing asset values and investments, and from a government POV, at a rate which will cause minimal disruption to the status quo.

            The introduction of other applications such as marine propulsion, railway locomotives and so on could be greatly delayed as the energy cartels focus on maximising easy profit with minimal risks to IP, and protecting their financial arses by managing down rates of technological change.

            As for privately-owned CF appliances or vehicles – think decades hence.

      • BroKeeper

        There will be no choice when it is available. “B”

      • Omega Z

        China has their Own Major Oil Company.
        And they’ll still be looking for farm turf to feed their masses.
        Also many other resources.
        Things a seldom as simple as we think.