Interview With Mats Lewan, Author of ‘An Impossible Invention’ about Rossi and the E-Cat

The following is a transcript of an interview I conducted with Mats Lewans, Swedish journalist who writes for NyTeknik magazine, and author of the recently published book about Andrea Rossi and the E-Cat, An Impossible Invention. We spoke via Skype today.

Mats

The book came out as quite a surprise? Did you intentionally keep it secret?

Yeah, sure. I decided to start this project already in 2011, and I realized I couldn’t talk about it because this would make all my contacts very complicated, with everyone, but still I realized that as a journalist I could be very open with my questions, and sooner or later I could write it.

The story in itself is already so stigmatized, so infected, that if people knew I was writing a book they could accuse me of having that as my main goal — to write the story and sell a book, and then I would be put in question. So I had to keep it secret. Actually, until I released this book a few days ago, Wednesday, only five persons had read it. The people at my newsroom, my closest friends know about it. Not even my family, except for my wife and my kids, knew about it. I kept a very low profile.

There are substantial quotes by Rossi and others in the book — did they know you were doing research for the book?

The only one who knew about the book was Rossi himself. I told him right away that I would like to tell this story — you can choose whether you want to be open with me or not. He said, no problem, that’s okay with me; and he never asked me what I should write; he never asked me how to tell this story. Never, ever.

Did you find people have been open or closed with you?

Most people have been very open with me. As a journalist, I often feel that if you demonstrate that what you are reporting is honest, is more or less what you observe, and you don’t put any values into it, people feel comfortable about telling the truth. Because even though it might be a difficult truth, it might be things that are uncomfortable, it’s better to let the truth come out. And they would rather speak with a person who is honest, and who will report it honestly. That has been my experience with this. That normally makes it very easy to speak with people; if you build up that kind of trust in your reporting.

The only person, actually, that I never managed to get in contact with was Domenico Fioravanti, the Italian consultant who was supposed to have been working with the military (I could never confirm that). I was able to get some confirmation at least back to the story of when he was in contact with Rossi in the Petroldragon time — the early connection between these two persons, but I have no confirmation of his professional background after that. He never responded to any emails. The whole story about Rossi’s work with the military customer is not confirmed by anyone. We only have Rossi’s word on that.

What do you know about Rossi’s manufacturing plants? He had that factory in Bologna and that one in Ferrara. . .

They were not really manufacturing places. They were workshops where he did small stuff. When you talk about manufacturing plants with robotic lines, stuff like that — nothing of the sort. They were very simple workshops where maybe a couple of people were occasionally doingstuff and putting things together. And then he had this famous factory in Miami which no one has ever confirmed it existed — it could have existed. He said it was a small place, about 1000 square meters if I remember right. It was working under cover — the official site was some kind of plumbing workshop or something (that’s what he says), but that’s supposed to be closed right now.

He must have been doing a lot of shipping. He’s building these reactors in the US, and building this plant in Italy. . .

As far as I understood he only produced (did I mention that in the book, I don’t remember?), he only said he produced the powder in the US, I think, and some small parts — but the main parts that were inside the megawatt plant were produced in Italy.

Do you know anything about the preparation of this secret catalyst and this secret powder preparation?

Nothing at all. That’s what he kept secret.

I was interested in one section of your book where you talked about people who were watching Rossi and this activity, quietly — for example, you mention Volvo.

When they’ve been watching, they’ve been watching at a distance. They’ve been reading what I write, and what others write — I don’t think they have any more in-depth knowledge than that. Then I have this curious story about the CIA supposedly watching Defkalion. That came from a source which I considered very trustworthy, but of course I couldn’t confirm that. Of course, if this technology is real, it’s so revolutionary I would expect intelligence from several countries to be interested, and to try to follow it in secret.

How about Vatenfall? Are you close to anyone there?

In cases like Vatenfall and Volvo (I haven’t had personal contacts with anyone there, just occasionally, maybe), it seems to me that persons at mid-level for one reason or another are very interested in this thing because they have been looking at it before, or because they are openminded — but often at the highest level there is a big skepticism and a careful way of getting to the subject. So maybe you have persons at the mid-level trying to push it, but you don’t have a wholehearted commitment at the highest levels.

What did you find to be the most interesting aspects of your research over the last few years?

Let me put it like this. When I started, Rossi immediately told me about this famous test of the megawatt plant that he was supposed to do in Greece in October, 2011. A little bit naive as I was, I thought that would be the end of the story; everything would be clear at that point — I could write a book, and I could release it in the same year. Of course, it turned out not to be that way.

In the years that followed I have had a very good opportunity to look at this story from different angles, and that’s what’s been interesting for me. To look at researchers’ ways of looking at this — the skepticism or interest, being open minded, or deciding it’s impossible — the whole story I’ve tried to put in the book of whether you should go into the story, or try to push it away; I find that quite interesting.

I think most people who don’t belong to the science community believe that science is a very pure kind of activity, where there is black and white, truth and falsehood — and I discovered it’s not. Because even scientists are humans, and they behave like all of us do, in that they are influenced by not only what they know scientifically but also by feelings, trends in society, trends in science, by what other people say, and by sociological factors, and I think that most people don’t realize this. Most of what happens inside science is actually dependent on sociological factors — specifically when it comes to what could be a paradigm shift, and big theories come to an end and are substituted by others.

That’s one part of the story. And then when it comes to the E-Cat, what’s been particularly fascinating are the stories about what has happened when the reaction has gone awry, when they lose control. I find that actually more interesting than all the measurements of the E-Cat when it works as normal, because it makes me more impressed. If you’re dealing with fraud, I wouldn’t expect a fraudster to make a demonstration of something that goes awry, or talk about it, because that wouldn’t fit into the expected fraud. If you want to be convincing you should make it perfect — unless you’re a very skillful fraudster and you think you should do it a little bit bad as well because it looks more real.

How about your assessment of Andrea Rossi as a man? What has stood out to you?

I’ve gotten to know him, and I think I describe that in a few parts of the book, of his typical entrepreneurial aspects of him, like an inventor. With all the strong parts and weak parts that they typically have. We often see them at our newsroom because our publication, NyTeknik, often focuses on small companies with new inventions, and you see that story all the time. about good inventions, and inventors’ difficulty in getting to market because they think the invention will sell itself. They have difficulty bringing in other persons who have other points of view and who can help you build a company. And Rossi has some of those characteristics — but he also has this huge experience of having been severely burned a couple of times in his background, so that makes him very experienced, also, for not making mistakes.

Let’s say his technology is real, and he actually makes it in the end — his earlier experience in having been burned has been crucial in this story. Because what he has been going through — how many people would try to fool you if you have the most important invention of the century? He has been in a very difficult situation, I think.

How has your status as a journalist been affected by your work with this story?

There have been lots of discussions. When I’ve been writing articles for NyTeknik our readers have been divided, as everyone is, regarding this technology. Lots of readers have been accusing me of being gullible and foolish and unintelligent, and whatever. Other readers have been thanking me for actually having the courage to report on this, which is such an interesting subject. So they’ve really been divided, and there have been very strong feelings. I have never in my newsroom been questioned where my career could be put into danger, but I fell that even though no one has never questioned me right out, the situation could still come up because it’s so controversial. Some people have a couple of times advised me to be careful, people close to me.

Have you ever regretted getting into this?

No, never, ever. It’s been so interesting.

How would you compare LENR/E-Cat with other technologies you cover at NyTeknik that are being developed?

I’ve got a Masters of Science in Engineering and Physics, but I’ve been dedicating my journalistic career mostly to information technology, and at the moment the impact of the internet and IT right now is underestimated by most people. People in this sector, they are understanding what is happening and one part which is coming close is artificial intelligence, which has been such a difficult subject for decades and people have believed it’s not ever possible. But it’s actually happening. Ray Kurzweil was actually hired two years ago by Google as director of engineering, and his last book was called How to Create a Mind — it’s very controversial. But people in the sector understand that the impact that information technology is going to have in the coming decades is huge — much bigger than most people understand. And I think that’s one of the most important things that is happening right now.

And then you have others, in areas like the material sciences — the graphene part, the 3D printing of human tissues, nanotechnologies which is developing faster than first thought — and there are many areas that are going to have an enormous impact. Still, I think that the most important is information technology.

On the other hand, on the greentech side, even though there has been big interest, not much has happened. You don’t have new energy resources, really. Big resources are going into solar power and wind power, that’s a strong development, but nothing’s really happening. So from that point of view, LENR is of enormous importance.

Because if you could have the same development as in information technology where information and processing power that was once concentrated to a few persons is now in the hands of everyone in the world — you just have to have a tablet or a smartphone anywhere in the world and you have access to more information than the president of the United States had fifteen years ago — if you could have the same revolution in energy that is today concentrated and controlled by the few, you could have it distributed in the whole world. That would change the world in the same way if you look at it from the big perspective. So it’s a huge invention from that point of view. If you go into detail, you could have clean water for everyone in the world; you could save people from being affected by pollution; you could lower the prices for lots of things — it could have a huge impact, of course.

What’s specifically interesting is that this is the first time something significant has happened, as has happened in information technology, on the energy side.

One thing I will get to in a blog post that I haven’t written yet is that we all know that there is a big discussion about the climate crisis. Whether you believe it or not — there are people on both sides, believing in the role carbon dioxide has had on the climate, or not — it’s still a potential threat, so we’ve got to solve it in one way or another. It’s good that lots of resources are put into developing sustainable power — solar, wind, whatever. But I believe we have here what I would call a streetlight problem. You know the joke about the streetlight — a police officer comes up to a man looking for something under the streetlight, and he says “did you lose something,” and the man says, “yes, I lost my key”. “Did you drop it here?” “No I dropped it there, in the dark.” “So why are you looking here?” “Because here it’s light.”

And I think in the energy sector, we’re stuck in that kind of problem. We’re looking where there is light — we’re looking at solar, and wind, and the energy resources that we know. On the nuclear side, we’re looking at fission — ordinary nuclear power — and we’re looking at plasma fusion power. Those are the only energy sources that we know about.

In the end, we have chemical reactions and we have nuclear reactions. Chemical reactions are very weak so we need a lot of fuel. Nuclear reactions are very good because they are very compact. But they are very dirty. They are producing radiation and you’ve got to have big structures because they are so complicated.
In the end, the only energy source that is bringing some new energy to the earth, except for solar, is nuclear reactions. Because everything else is solar. If you look at petroleum, or wind, or solar, or burning wood, or hydro power — whatever it is, it’s all solar power coming to the earth. So in that sense you can go to the solar power directly.

So the only energy source that brings you something new is nuclear power. But then we only look at the fusion power and fission power that we know about. Einstein tells us that energy is mass x speed of light squared. And that tells us that one gram of matter has as much energy as the first atomic bombs over Japan — Hiroshima and Nagasaki — because that was the amount of power that was used. Any energy that you get out of something is matter transformed into energy, be it chemical reactions or nuclear reactions. Chemical reactions are much less effective at doing that. Nuclear reactions are much more effective — but still they are just using a small part of matter that you have in your hand to produce energy. So what you actually have — we don’t have an energy problem, we have a scientific problem; because we have an infinity of energy in grains of sand in our hand. We don’t know how to get at it. And cold fusion — now I come to the end if it — cold fusion is the first time since the discovery of nuclear fission power, that we have — maybe — discovered a new kind of nuclear reaction, and I believe that this could be the invention of the century, but there could be thousands of ways of getting energy out from matter which could be much more effective than cold fusion, if it’s real. We’ve just started.

Do you have any assessment of current competition to Rossi? Do you think there is anyone close to him, or have passed him?

I mention a few of them in the last chapter. I mention Defkalion which I have an enormous difficulty to assess all the time. I still have strong doubts about Defkalion, but they have been the one that have seemed to have something close to Rossi that I knew of. But I would not say that I am sure that they have it; on the contrary, I have several doubts about what they have, or have not. And then you have Brillouin Energy and Blacklight power, and I know very little about them. There is this Finnish company that I mention which released a patent application. I don’t know what they had but I learned through contacts which I have that these people are qualified scientists; that doesn’t mean or say anything. I don’t know if there is competition.

From a scientific history point of view you would expect this to be discovered by several persons contemporaneously; that’s normally the way it happens when a new invention comes, but this could be quite a unique case since it’s been so stigmatized that few people have tried to get in close. I don’t have any clear ideas about strong competition.

As things stand today, what is your personal level of confidence in the E-Cat as a viable technology?

Personally, this is absolutely my personal assessment, I’m quite confident that it works. Of course I couldn’t prove it; I could be wrong; but for me there are so many factors supporting the idea that it works, that I actually think it does. Still, I got an email from a nuclear scientist today that told me that he was absolutely convinced that it’s just a fraud. But the funny thing is that most often, those people who know that it’s a fraud, they have never been close to it and they have never been interested to look into it — they’re just convinced.

It’s only been a few days since the book’s been published — what’s been the reception to it?

I’m actually overwhelmed. I had a contract with one publishing company early on, but in the end they didn’t feel ready to publish the book. I felt in January of this year it was time to publish the book — I couldn’t wait any longer; this was the time to put an end to the book and get it out, but they were not ready to publish it, and at that point I decided to publish it myself as I have done. And I decided I would distribute it myself and sell it on my web site, and I can tell you I have some work to do, because orders are flowing in, and lots of people have been very interested. Some of the critics — I am glad that they actually say that “I still don’t believe in the E-Cat, but I believe you’ve done a good job” — that’s good to hear! And people who are more positive about the E-Cat, they are very positive, and more positive than I expected.

I was asked by my own colleagues the other day when I presented the book in the newsroom, those who knew less about the story, “why do you think that so few have been engaging in this?” And I think the easy answer is everyone is so afraid of having (I don’t know what you call it in English) — the ‘dumb hat’ or ‘fool hat’. People actually don’t dare to touch it.

Have you ever had that fear yourself?

No, because I feel, like you, that this story has to be told — no matter what. I’m telling it — there’s nothing wrong with that. As soon as you keep a balance, and try to stick to the truth, there can’t be anything wrong with that. The story has to be told.

If there was someone in a high position who said, ‘yes, this is important, this is real, we should follow this, I think there would be a lot more interest, but I don’t think to this point, at least, anybody with sufficient authority or respectability in the larger media world has come forward and said it — and I’m hoping for that time to come, I don’t know when it will come.

If I have a very modest hope for my book for bringing some change for this subject, is that somebody in that position could read it and get influenced, and get some more knowledge about it, and maybe speak up. I’m trying to push some connections that I have to get the book to persons that could have more attention than the ones that have been speaking about the subject before, and that would be the biggest satisfaction that I could have as an author of this book.

  • The Greatest freedom

    Mats Lewan gives great credibility to Rossi’s Ecat, both as an engineer and as an reporter that has been following the Ecat almost from start. It seems that both men respect each other and Mats had to take a lot of mud throwing for his articles in Ny Teknik. I know that Mats speak Italian, so he now have even more reasons to travel to Italy. The problem that I, and many have, is Mr Rossi’s history and the long time to market for his inventions… In an area that are filled with fraudsters..

  • stefan

    So you say Cop 1, And I say Cop 2, Remember the swedes never measured the device at full effect and he has always tried to hit the Cop 6, due to safety experience. That’s why I suggested Cop 2. On this point we must probably agree to disagree.

  • Quiet Wine Guy

    It is good to see Rossi honor Mats Lewan’s book in the exchange below!

    ======================

    RicT

    April 7th, 2014 at 4:34 PM

    Dear Dr. Rossi,
    Did you read / like the new Mats Lewan book?
    thank you

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Andrea Rossi

    April 7th, 2014 at 4:45 PM

    RicT:
    Yes, I liked it: Mats Lewan is a scientific journalist able to explain difficult concepts in a way that anybody can understand and at the same time get fun. Like the Jazz of Armstrong. Besides, the text is sincere, honest and professionally structured.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

  • Zavod

    I will give Mats Lewan this, he seems infinitely capable of remaining neutral on a subject for a very long time.

    ‘Personally, this is absolutely my personal assessment, I’m quite
    confident that it works. Of course I couldn’t prove it; I could be
    wrong; but for me there are so many factors supporting the idea that it
    works, that I actually think it does. Still, I got an email from a
    nuclear scientist today that told me that he was absolutely convinced
    that it’s just a fraud. But the funny thing is that most often, those
    people who know that it’s a fraud, they have never been close to it and
    they have never been interested to look into it — they’re just
    convinced.’

    Doesn’t surprise me that those standing in judgement, have so little ability to judge those actually doing the work.

  • stefan

    Another interesting detail is the part about the Swedish measurement on the hot cat that went so wrong. It’s so important to test your new things before showing it, thoroughly, and with enough time allocated – take that as a lesson. This is most probably what Happened.

    1. Rossi expanded the technology to the Hot Cat implemented a new control
    2. The control caused Jitter, that was not showing up on the multimeter?.
    3. Rossi works some and create was it 6x according to his measurements (in reality
    it was 2x), finds that it’s ok to stop now due to safety experience.
    4. Sweedes start test and see 3x off in measurements, thinks it is a hoax.
    5. Rossi talks with people that know measurement theory, starts using better equipment
    6. Rossi tweek the gain to 6 again.
    proceed to Levi et al.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Of course we don’t know, but your scenario sounds possible, perhaps even plausible.

    • Oka

      I don’t think so. I think it was exactly as Mats reported; that the first prototype didn’t work – and that Rossi himself was fooled by his own instruments while initially developing the hotcat. Once realizing this, Rossi managed to re-calibrate the hotcat such that it started to produce energy inline with what we had seen for the original 1MW unit.

      • stefan

        I think I said just what you suggested, a little more math just. Anyway the argument against us is that he knows the process and should have discovered that the instrument was wrong in the tests by getting suspiciously high cop very early in the startup of the process. On the other hand the jitter might have been lower at the start and the process was new so he might still have been fooled.

  • stefan

    A really nice interview, After reading that book, we it is really very clear that our science structures has a double standard when it comes to cold fusion and normal science. Gallileo, Newton, Einstein … is probably all rolling in the graves for how foolish the scientific peer review system treat science. The part about arciveX really shows that there is a ban on a organizational level of lower brained people that chuckle over cold fusion with no knowledge at all. I put this behavior at the same level as rape jokes and racist jokes, these morons are really raping the earth. Good work guys, I can finally have pointers that show how cooked up things are.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Yes, I find it disconcerting that the institutions that were the biggest impediment to LENR researcher for a quarter century still receive the highest rankings. These rankings correlate with something but apparently whatever that something is it doesn’t correlate with anything that really matters.

  • georgehants

    It must be understood that while most on page just wish to be involved in the saga of Mr. Rossi coming through with his E-cats, a few are more concerned with trying to highlight the faults in science that led to Cold Fusion being in the 25 year delayed position it is now, from which millions could have and are suffering unnecessarily.
    There are many other important scientific subjects that are equally as delayed through the same incompetence and corruption.
    Can I suggest a pole on page as to if people wish to be rid of somebody like me that continually brings up things that many scientists wish to ignore and hide can have their say.
    If I am not wanted here then that will be your chance to say so.

    • ecatworld

      No need for a poll, George — you’re welcome here. All I ask of posters is that they use common courtesy, and don’t stray too far off-topic. Also, this is not a site for hyperskepticism.

      • georgehants

        Thank you Admin, I think allowing for my strong feelings about the subjects I am amazingly restrained. Ha.

    • drjohngalan

      Having known Martin Fleischmann and admired him as a scientist and a teacher, the saga of the last 25 years has continually dismayed me.

      The way the scientific establishment demolished the reputation of a fine man and in so doing delayed an invention that could have benefitted all mankind is nothing short of a scandal of huge scale.

      The sooner Rossi’s E-Cat gets the attention from the main stream media it deserves and the whole cold fusion story can be told (if there is a journalist brave enough to tell it!) the better.

      • georgehants

        Just one positive editorial in one of the premier scientific comics would set the World alight with Cold Fusion.
        Anybody like to explain why they stay dumb.

    • LENR G

      I welcome a diversity of opinions, georgehants, don’t go anywhere.

      But you have to expect that when you post something over and over again in just about every thread that people who don’t agree with you (me, in this case) are going to also make their opinion known.

      We agree that science has a problem with how it deals with outliers. A poster like Alain has added to my education on that topic. Your posts though are verging on anti-science, on which I can’t stay silent. I know there’s a difference between anti-(bad)scientist and anti-science but it’s starting to feel like you have an agenda and are intentionally blurring that line.

      • georgehants

        LENR G, I understand, but ask you to understand, I do have an agenda.
        That agenda is for “good” scientists to start to put right the situation created by bad scientists.
        You have seen the results of the present system in Cold Fusion, only concerted effort from those who care about the damage being caused will begin to rectify the situation.
        As an almost lone voice I can do no more that to be repetitive, well thats life.
        Easily solved by others joining the justified campaign to change the scientific administration.
        Your choice, start to react to the crimes or be satisfied with ignoring them.
        Best

        • LENR G

          Alright I can get behind that agenda. You might want to consider though honey instead of vinegar.

          Imagine the curious chemist or nuclear scientist stumbling across these threads and reading how evil she is. Is she going to stay long enough to educate herself or is she going to click over to Scientific American?

          • georgehants

            Many thanks for being on side.
            Time for scientists to wake up, the soft approach has led to the terrible crimes of today, if it is o.k. I will try the honest approach.
            If the average scientist is so weak minded and selfish that they are prepared to ignore these crimes then so be it.

    • mytakeis

      keep on keeping on – this page!

    • GreenWin

      George, you might be interested to read the following link to Tom Bearden’s discussion of the CF patent issued to Randell Mills back in February of 2000. Tom points to the American Physical Society skeptopath Robert Park, who wrote the gospel of FUD “Voodoo Science.” Park represents all that is wrong with certain areas of science. Areas long confined by knowledge monopolies staffed by unelected officials who dole out taxpayer money. http://www.cheniere.org/misc/mills.htm

      As President Eisenhower warned, the military industrial complex took control of big science funding in the early 1960s and thereby the entire R&D troika of academia, government and military. Astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Captain USN adds that the National Security Act of 1947 allowed certain areas of science and phenomena to be completely hidden from the public.

      The present blackout around LENR is due to a confluence of these forces and certain self-appointed “priests.” These priests are easy to identify. Their vocabulary is littered with ad hominem invective, and bug-eyed exclamations like “nonsense, scam and crackpot!” They are IMO a kind of infantile parasite, immune even to a vigorous scrubbing with pesticides. But they are losing their influence and monopolies, and will end up in Potter’s Field for Parasites. Tentacles and all. 🙂

      • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

        I just disagree with eisenower, and I will take the position of nassim Nicholas taleb.
        The problem is beside few incompetent clown (idiot utile), is a group of academics and few technocrats.
        It is the aristocracy of science, who try since long to convince the population that theory and academics have invented the technology and that theoreticians and academics lead the technology progress.

        it is what he call “Lecturing birds how to fly”.
        We are convinced they are right (that fission and atom was discovered by theory, that Einstein is a genius more than Fermi) because academics control the history books and because “History written by the losers” .

        Thomas Kuhn is more kind as he says that the history is rewritten, not because academics want to claime they are the hero, but because they want to educate young students with a linear story that don’t give any doubt on the evdence of current paradigm.

        I resume.
        Taleb claims academics write history book where theoreticians and academic make discovery of a new reality, and practitioners take that sacred treasure to invent practical usages.

        Kuhn claims academics write history so that students think that current paradigm is the only possible one, and have always been the only rational one.

        this is why you don’t know that discovery and inventions are done in a garage, a cave, by heretic who are ignored then burned, before few late academic followers are designed as inventors, with a working theory, enforcing the fairy tale of academic ruling the world, and hiding the systematic harassment against the heretic discoverers.

        It is not a question of intelligence, but of power and control on history and knowledge.

        I advise you to see how history will be rewritten by Wikipedia and Nature/Science. It will be astonishing I bet.

  • Lu

    Excellent interview and I wish Mats Lewan great success with his book. I particularly like his attitude toward the Rossi saga–no matter how it turns out it’s a great story.

  • GreenWin

    This is an excellent interview. Thank you Frank! Mats Lewan and ex-CIA analyst, Editor of Peak Oil News, Tom Whipple are two of a handful of journalists cleared to write about LENR. S. Kirvit represents a separate agenda, well known to many here. It is a highly compartmentalized project not unlike IMO, Enigma, Manhattan, Maj, etc. This is confirmed by a dearth of non-institutional, open journalism. Were this not the case, CBS 60 Minutes would have followed up their 2009 “Cold Fusion is Hot Again” segment. There is so much more progress and data today – only a tightly knit blackout could keep real journalists away.

    Mats comments on new nuclear processes. Publicly we research only thermonuclear fusion and fission. Both produce dangerous radiation and waste. Both are clearly economic disasters. It is, as Mats says, “A streetlight problem.” Yet there is enormous energy in the atom, starting with the simplest and most abundant element hydrogen. Rather than splitting or fusing atomic charges, condensing and expanding those charges may create unique atomic structures, perturbing and resonating nearby atoms, and even the space-time they occupy. There’s certainly more than one way to make a Cat run. 🙂

  • GreenWin

    Social scientists, anthropologists, population experts will tell you raising standards of living lower birthrates.

  • LENR G

    Rossi working on miniaturization:

    “Mark:Your idea is good, the actual turning it into a prototype raises many difficulties; we are working also upon the idea of miniaturized reactors in the context of our R&D program, though. You got a point.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.”

    • LENR G

      It’d be awfully weird for a company funded to the tune of $20M+ to be doing R&D along many tracks (jet engines, miniaturization etc.) if the thing didn’t actually work.

      • Fortyniner

        I suppose the pathoskeps would say that it is because they are desperately searching for something that DOES work!

        Slightly more seriously, I think that the core application (boiler/generator) has probably been handed over to a team of development engineers and marketers, while Rossi is left to play. He is probably enjoying his ‘job’ enormously.

        • GreenWin

          I think you’re correct Peter. Sustainable LENR heat appears to be done. Conversion to work / electricity is an engineering task. More interesting is converting a plasma to electricity. That invokes the exotic stuff like MHD and energy wells where gravity disappears. All sorts of cool stuff happens at nano-scale – like diverting light around an Au lattice to make stuff invisible!

        • georgehants

          Hey you two I feel like Martin Luther here, a bit of support would not go amiss even if it is saying I am wrong.
          Mr. Rossi will be a resounding success lets move on to the more interesting stuff. Ha.

          • ecatworld

            I intend that the priority here will always be LENR/Energy — other topics may come up, but will be more peripheral.

          • Fortyniner

            Hi George. I do fully share your concerns about the way scientific research has been pretty much controlled by those who dispense research funding, and the political nature of their decision making. I have become convinced over the years that the way that research (and information in general) has been channeled and constricted are entirely deliberate, not simply the result of rigid minds and lack of imagination.

            The propelling forces seem to be primarily extra-political – control from behind the scenes – and any scientist who wishes to remain employed is forced to stay within certain unspoken limits. IMO, the likes of Park, Huizenga and whoever de-funded Peter Hagelstein are (or were) not simply the pompous, rigid minded and self righteous prats they seem, but cynical and corrupt agents of the interests that seek to suppress CF, natural remedies for cancer, anomalous magnetic machines, hyper-mileage cars, or in fact anything that might upset someone’s profit applecart.

            As such these rather disgusting people are untouchable, because the same interests that use such people also control the media that still largely ‘inform’ the mass of people. No amount of exposure it seems (such as the ‘Climategate’ email saga) can de-rail the agendas such people serve.

            While I completely support your stance and admire your obvious conviction, I simply don’t believe that I could have any significant effect if I joined you here in calling for a ‘root and branch’ overhaul of the way science has been hijacked, or for more equal distribution of wealth. These things are probably beyond anything short of a complete restructuring of society – which I would assist in any way I could, if I thought it possible. Perhaps the introduction of cold fusion will turn out to be the trigger for exactly this.

            If the above seems like a cop-out, then apologies. I do what I can in one or two self-selected areas (mostly opposing new nuclear power in the UK) but even this seems quite futile at times. Please assume my tacit support for your posts, even if I don’t always jump in to make this explicit.

      • Warthog

        IH and its backers have plenty of access to more money if they need it. And, apparently unlike 99.5% of technology managers, realize that when you have a creation engine like Rossi, the best thing to do is put him in his own independent space with a few really good technicians, lock the door, and throw money and equipment in through the windows. Sounds like Cherokee Investments has some really astute managers. I’m about 1/2 way through Lewan’s book, and the extremely complex nature of the human and financial story is “almost” more entertaining than the science.

  • Somru Avin

    Rossi is not a scientist but an engineer with money interests and “do-good-and-be-great” interests. Nothing wrong with that – but don’t confuse the public.
    A scientist must work differently – one who thinks of patents and secret-keepings is no more a scientist.

    • georgehants

      You mean scientists like the corrupt and incompetent one’s who deny and debunk Cold Fusion and many other important scientific subjects.
      I would rather have one true scientist like Rossi’s than a thousand closed-minded, establishment worshipping, qualified wasters.
      Time for science to stop blowing it’s own crazy trumpet when the Facts prove it is in most areas, no more than a joke.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Yeah George,

        George Miley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._Miley put his career on the line in 1989 when he testified in favor of Fleischmann and Pons at a Congressional hearing. That’s a scientist. Not the ones who will jump on the bandwagon after Rossi sublimed steel with his E-Cat.

        • GreenWin

          Very TRUE! In fact, it is the family of CF scientists who amply demonstrate courage and integrity. The rest are corporate/government toadies following orders. IMO.

      • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

        in fact scientists are in few classes, as it is well described in that Titanic article

        http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusion.pdf#page=4

        there is a very small team of incompetent biased unethical under-scientists, the clowns, who more than being stupid, have a very high ego over competence ratio. they had no power, no recognition, no competence, no incluence out of Cold Fusion denial.
        I put in that team mostly : Huizenga, Morrison, taubes, Lewis, Hansen.
        those guys were activist of denial, aware of their lies, their incompetence , but sincerely convinced to be right.

        beside those activists of under-science, there is a gang of leading illiterate parrots.

        Beside the clowns who are just triggers, the parrots are the real power behind scientific denial. Many influential scientists, many Nobel winners, did not read anything, either the positive article, the negative articles, nor the books of huizenga/taubes… they however appreciated that those books/papers follow their dogmatic prejudices against cold fusion , and supported the absurds claims, the pathetic books, which give power to the third stage of the denial bomb.

        the third stage of the denial bomb is the mass of science rats who follow the leaders, depend on the leaders, are paid under decision of the leaders or decision of people depending on the leaders… they are the mass in the Mutual Assured Delusion, where delusion trickle-down.
        You find all the middle scientists, the young graduate, the universities, the labs, even CEA and top scientist depending on Nobel committee for hope of prize. You also find the high impact journals whose reputation depend on lords of science, the parrots. themselves as high impact journals they determine the required opinion of lower class scientist, even of top level scientist…

        out of those 3 stage denial bomb you only find find few outsiders :
        – retired scientists
        – low impact journals
        – private labs and garage inventors
        – industrial labs and labs under industrial contracts
        – some military labs

        those structures and individuals are much less dependent on others opinion, they are the only free minds on the planet.
        they are hidden in the cave, while the 3 stage bombe of denial have exploded…

        5 clown as trigger
        hundred of lazy influential dogmatic scientists as explosive
        millions of depending proletariat and little-bourgeoisie slaves of science consensus and the incendiary charge.

        and billions of victims.

        • LENR G

          I would add that the parrots also control the media and in turn the public.

          The general public isn’t educated or skilled enough to evaluate the claims on their own so they rely on trusted sources. The trusted sources are the media. The media in turn takes its direction from the science media which in turn is driven by experts and a few highly regarded journals. The “gatekeepers.”

          If you don’t win over the experts and the journals then you can’t win over anybody except independent thinkers and businessmen who bother to do the research.

          In the case of cold fusion the gatekeepers and the parrots are one in the same. The tragedy is that the experts are biased due to where they get their money (and the edifice of their entire previous education and experiences). The journals will not publish anything that is not reliably reproducible. Thus paradigm-shifting, emerging, unsettled science always has a rough go.

          In LENR the game is even more rigged. Add in the magnitude of the potential change, the money that stands to be made and lost, the historical – ahem – flakiness of the “alternative energy” scam niche and you’ve got the perfect recipe for the mass confusion in which we currently find ourselves.

          Orville and Wilbur are flying around and nobody even notices.

    • LENR G

      I agree in principle but we need to stop badmouthing scientists here. The intersection between money and science is a messy one. Even scientists that work in academia (rather than company labs) and openly publish their work often start spin-offs that license and subsequently protect/patent their most valuable discoveries.

      Scientists are just responding rationally to the incentives they are given in our society. If they were adequately motivated/compensated to share their valuable discoveries openly most would do so.

      I guarantee that the vast majority of scientists become scientists because they seek truth and want to better mankind. But they have to play by the rules and the rules right now are that you don’t usually get rewarded for altruism.

      Some here like to take every chance they get to malign the scientists who suppress cold fusion and other science on the fringes. I see the problem differently. I see the massive warping effect that money has on science and I do not largely blame the scientists. I see moneyed interests creating FUD, making or destroying career according to getting the “right” results and hoarding research dollars through the power of their lobbying efforts (which includes discrediting emerging technologies). I blame them.

      I am not a scientist — more of an engineer — but I can tell you that in general I hold scientists in very high regard. Very high. They are the truth-seekers in our society. The ones who sort fact from fiction… the ones who work in tandem for the benefit of us all. We need scientists — right now — to flood into LENR and discover its secrets… and help optimize it for all of us. I hope the scientists who read this web site are not put off by a few folks who don’t like what you often have to do for money and to further your career. We need your help.

      • georgehants

        LENR G, I have replied to you very reasonably, but at this time it has been removed.
        It may be that Admin is not in the office and I have used a dodgy word.
        We shall wait and see if correctly criticising your comment will be allowed or if censorship of honest comments on the crimes of science is beginning to operate.
        Strangely somebody already gave it a like before it disappeared.

    • Warthog

      Not at all true. Most scientists and engineers have worked in both modes in their careers. Some stuff you publish, and some stuff you patent (and THEN publish).

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Should we judge a tree by its fruits or by its pedigree?

  • LENR G

    Nice!

    I have some additional questions for Mats in case he’s reading this thread.

    I think one of the biggest news items from “An Impossible Invention” is how close NASA (+ friends) came to being Rossi’s partner, to the point of a contract being drawn up, but apparently the terms were unacceptable to Rossi.

    Q: Did Rossi ever let you see the proposed contract? Did you ever get any confirmation that the terms were as ridiculous as Rossi made them out to be?

    Q: Rossi let slip — briefly — a month or so ago that NASA would be making a big announcement soon. Do you have any indication that Rossi and NASA renewed their friendship after the Levi validation was published in May 2013? Should we assume that NASA has been involved, even leading the latest round of independent testing?

    Q: Did you ever get any indication of the identities of the new 3rd party testers? Is it the same crowd as before with maybe a few new players or can we expect more major institutions to be involved this time around?

    Ah… I could ask a million more. Hopefully you’ll engage us in some Q&A. You’ve been closer to this amazing story than all of us. Great book! Everyone should read it. Rossi strikes me as modern day hero.

    • Argon

      Indeed, Mats has done important work,not only by this remarkable book, but also spreading the word in his daily work as a journalist. Book is also important pice when history of LENR is collected to historybooks.

      What I would be interested to hear from Mats, why nothing about Hydrofusion (remember ecat.com, which now has added news about book also). They were supposed to have exclusive rights to resell in Nordics and England. Are they still in picture? Mats lives in same city than some of the founders.

      • Mats Lewan

        Hydrofusion is still active and have close contacts with Rossi as far as I know. I believe that the objective is still to get a pilot installation of a megawatt plant in Sweden somewhere, but I don’t know how the plans have developed in detail.

    • Mats Lewan

      No, I never saw the contract.
      I have no further information on any involvement by NASA with Rossi. In any case I would be surprised if NASA was involved in the latest round of independent testing.
      And I would avoid speculating regarding the third party testers before their report is published.

  • jousterusa

    I thought Frank asked very insightful questions, and I learned a lot from Matt Lewan’s answers about the mindsets and the physics he mentions. I aqlso liked his joke about the streetlight! Matt had a lot of courage to back away from his publishing contract and strike out on his own, and I hope our world and the broader community will support him on that by buying his book. Like that fellow at Forbes who writes about LENR and Rossi on occasion, Matt has really tuck his neck out for something he believes in. In The American Reporter, because I’m the boss I can go whole hog on LENR, and I’m so used to criticism it’s almost meaningless to me. But Matt had a lot to lose, and risked it to tell the truth as he knows it. Now we await the independent test results, to learn, as he mentions, whether we are the guys in the corner with the dunce caps or the guys at the head of the class. I vote for the latter!

    • Chris the 2nd

      “Matt had a lot of courage to back away from his publishing contract and strike out on his own,”

      Having read the book it seems a bit of Rossi may have rubbed off on him!

  • Bob Greenyer

    Nice interview Frank, thank-you Mats

  • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

    “So maybe you have persons at the mid-level trying to push it, but you don’t have a wholehearted commitment at the highest levels.”

    i confirm.

    about some special services operation, I confirm beside Defkalion, 2 other operation. one on land, one APT, not about LENR reactor builder but about LENR application startups.

    It seems that like it happen in my company where only the 1st circle is aware, the knowledge cannot spread even as joke of bashing, or rise in the hierarchy. unlike viral information, cold fusion is unable to spread.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      “one on land, one APT”, what does it mean (I don’t know what is APT)?

      • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_persistent_threat

        only observation is that there was competent hacker who cleaned their tracks like professional after having gathered much data. not amateur.

        the land operation (independent), was made by someone whom you don’t ask his ID card.

        Don’t know why it was done, and maybe is it simply intimidation, or warning against industrial spying done by benevolent actors.

        as Mats says, i don’t imagine people on the top are aware, but mid-lever skunkwork teams of various kind may be workin on that.

        today I am aware of those highest executive:
        – a CTO of 50-100bn sales company
        – a small political party board member

        you can add those (sometime old) stories
        – Shell funding research at CNAM and owning a patent
        – NASA, Lockeed Martin, Boeing avour SUGAR and Doug Wells.

      • Fortyniner

        I would have preferred the answer to have been:

        Automatic Public Toilet
        or
        Association of Professional Tossers

        From http://www.abbreviations.com/APT

        • Pekka Janhunen

          It was a dark and stormy night. A member of Association of Professional Tossers had an advanced persistent threat and was seeking an APT…

          • Fortyniner

            An example of advanced alliterated acronyms, no less!

            • GreenWin

              AAA provides roadside service and repairs for a nominal fee in the USA gents. And advanced acronyms usually require a Q clearance.

              • Fortyniner

                On this side of the pond it’s just the AA (Automobile Association). Americans always have to go one better.

  • artefact

    Just finished reading the book. Yesterday I read until midnight und started today at 5 in the morning 🙂
    I’m dissapointed… that he did not sign it 🙂
    The book is very good. To every happening that is known to us I remembered the videos, pictures and discussions we have seen.
    I always hoped someone like Rossi, Levi or you would write a book about the story.

    • artefact

      you = Mats Lewan

      • peter gluck

        I have congratulated Mats for the courage to publish this book and now it is my pleasant duty to congratulate Franck for putting the most adequate smart questions in this interview.
        The book is perfectly honest and objective, I think. However if there are doubts
        re Rossi et al, then these doubts have to be explained or at least an explanation
        has to be tried. The worst case if the E cats or Hot-Cats give exactly zero excess heat, then how can Rossi mimick excess heat? He must use very dirty tricks, and really creative ones!
        A mllder form of doubt is that Rossi cannot control well the excess heat he obtains.
        This was not discussed in the book and in the interview, I think.

        If Rossi and Defkalion are Cold Fusion descendents, they are very different from the initial form – Deeply metamorphised Cold fusion.

        Peter