Rossi: Testing with Industry Specializing in Jet Engines

I thought this Q&A today between a reader and Andrea Rossi on the Journal of Nuclear Physics was noteworthy:

Q: How is going your research regarding the application of the E-Cat to jet engines?

A: We are organizing tests with an industry specialized in Jet engines. I strongly believe in this application.

When Rossi says ‘industry’ here, I find it hard to believe he is talking about a whole industry — rather it would seem he’s talking about an individual player in the jet engine industry. Also, we should note that Rossi has said in the past that when he says jet engine, he is referring to a gas turbine which can be used in stationary applications for power generation, rather than just in aviation. I would think he and IH are learning to walk before they can run (or fly!)

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Yeah, it’s in the engineers ballpark now.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      …the engineers’ ballpark…

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Nitrogen dioxide is a byproduct of the burning of hydrocarbons. One of the reasons for the cancelation of Boeings SST program was the thought that it would produce too much NO2 (and water vapor from the exhaust) that would damage the ozone layer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_2707
    A Hot-Cat jet engine shouldn’t have this problem (I could be wrong but I don’t think any free radicals would be created). So, maybe Boeing could resurrect its SST program.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gJK-DB8nBw

  • Alan DeAngelis

    This video on how to start a jet engine really helped me understand what’s going on. The compression process is FIRST started with an EXTERNAL compressor THEN fuel is injected into the combustion chamber and ignited. Now I can see how the Hot-Cat could be a simple retrofit.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4pqEzfKXcA

  • Alan DeAngelis

    I’m fascinated by the idea of a Hot-Cat powered jet engine but I don’t think (I may be wrong) a Hot-Cat jet engine will be a simple retrofit of a conventional jet engine. Kerosene in a jet engine does more than make heat. A small amount of liquid (kerosene) when burned is turned into a lot of hot gas (CO2 and steam) that helps turn the turbine.

    2 C12H26(l) + 37 O2(g) → 24 CO2(g) + 26 H2O(g).

    So, 24 + 26 = 50 parts of gas are created form 37 parts of gas (oxygen from the air intake). 50/37 = 1.34 (more gas out than in). No new gas would be created with a Hot-Cat jet engine so this has to be kept in mind when designing the Hot-Cat engine.

    Force = Mass x Acceleration

    Because no new mass would be created in a Hot-Cat engine the acceleration of that mass of gas will have to be increased to match the force created in a kerosene powered jet engine.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON0sVe1yeOk

    • TPBurnett

      You are forgetting about the Nitrogen content (79%) of air. I that context the added gas volume from the Kerosene byproducts don’t count as much as the overall heat expansion of the air (Nitrogen & Oxygen mix). The real beauty of a LENR jet turbine is that it eliminates the need for one of the two heat exchangers in a steam system. No need for a condenser. Just breath in cool air, expand it to do work, then exhaust the hot air.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Yeah, I was treating the nitrogen as a constant (same amount going into the intake as going out the exhaust). I was just thinking that there is extra gas created in the combustion of the kerosene that is added to the exhaust but yeah, you have me thinking now that this added gas is probable negligible (its caloric contribution is probably its primary function). As you mentioned, LENR would simplify the process. Yeah, you don’t have to create the stringent conditions needed for kerosene to burn (see 3:50 min). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1TqwAKwMuM

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Thanks TP, you nailed it. I think you’ll like this video
        “The Atomic Bomber”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsCw0s0BJKY

  • Omega Z

    2 different stories posted below by “Kimball” & “Gerrit”

    2 different stories From(Note Time/Date of Each.
    SCIENCE & TECH
    25 years ago a dream caught fire — and died
    By John Hollenhorst March 23rd, 2014 @ 10:55pm

    http://www.ksl.com/?sid=29184874&nid=1012&fm=home_page&s_cid=toppick2

    Cold fusion continues 25 years after announcement
    By Ed Yeates March 23rd, 2014 @ 10:55pm

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=1012&sid=29181949

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Just a crazy thought. I was thinking about the movie “October Sky”.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxJQgYPXjN4
    To get the kids excited about LENR, maybe there could be LENR rocket clubs. Small rockets that have water and a small LENR reactor to make steam.

  • Fortyniner

    Given the performance characteristics of the early ‘plumbing fittings’ reactor, some kind of home heater may well have seemed to be the logical development pathway at the time. It’s likely that Rossi simply failed to appreciate what would be involved in getting consumer certification for such a device, and he was also clearly concerned about IP protection if small units were proliferated. There may well have been other pressures on him and his associates to stay away from private/domestic applications, and once the ‘hot cat’ had been developed this made the change in direction towards industrial applications inevitable.

    I have never seen any evidence that ‘Hephaheat’ is anything more than a sophisticated industrial process heater that uses 50/60Hz induction heating. AFAIK Steorn have never claimed any more than that – it was PESN that originated the overunity claims, but the basis for this is unclear. You seem to be comparing apples and oranges – unless you have additional info about ‘Hephaheat’ that confirms O/U by some mechanism?

    • Omega Z

      Likely the fact that E-cats produce radiation during operation had a significant impact on UL Certification.
      The Industrial products Safety Data will be needed to clear this hurdle.

      • GreenWin

        Keep in mind the 50+M CRT televisions producing X-rays in family homes around the world for the last 50 years. Our homes produce spurious microwaves from ovens, cellular gadgets, “smart” meters, alpha particles from Am241 in smoke detectors, asphyxiating gases from stoves and water heaters and all manner of dangerous chemicals from cleaning products.

        • Omega Z

          I agree, But take those things away & try to bring them into society today & most wouldn’t pass muster.
          Society today has a Risk aversion as in they want zero risk. Something that’s unobtainable.

          I’m more a risk analyses type.
          This device “MAY” fail & cause the death of 1 in 100K people per year.
          This Device in fact would prevent about 100 in 100K from freezing to death in the winter.
          My decision is made. Now I will be attacked for risking 1 life. The saving of 100 will not be in the discussion. Our world today.

          Now, If I were the UL, I would try & make the E-cat fail. If there was a Failure, I’d send it back to Rossi & ask what could be done to minimize or eliminate this, At some point do a risk analyses. Then decide.

          Apparently that is asking to much from them, as in expecting them to do their job. The fact we live in a society of frivolous lawsuits doesn’t help either.

  • Kimball
  • gioj

    Rossi is undoubtedly a genial person … in many aspects, even in the (for me) very remote possibility that the e-cat may not work!

    but what amazes me most is this:

    the ability to keep the secret by of all actors close to rossi in the second and third row.

    this is absolutely amazing, and it is a characteristic of a strong power and perceived as such by all the actors on the background …. otherwise they would have already betrayed the delivery of silence!

    …and it is difficult to perceive as strong power, a scientist alone as Rossi, with his past history!

    • Omega Z

      “10,000 Plus” people tracking & monitoring all you phone calls And Internet activity in the U.S. not including all other Nations for a decade.
      “10,000 Plus for a Decade”-Keep that in mind.
      Only Snowden came forward.

      Seems it’s easier to keep a secret then we would believe.

  • timycelyn

    A bit more meat on this topic from Rossi’s blog today. My takeway from it is
    that he is describing the ‘jet engine’ work as being pretty much blue sky type research, and as such that fits better with a consideration of aviation use, rather than just as a grounded device.

    Andrea Rossi
    March 24th, 2014 at 6:30 AM
    Koen Vandewalle:
    We must put a distinction between products that are ready (www.leonardocorp1996.com) and products that are in the horizon of the future ( for example jet engine applications).
    R&D covers both categories, but with a different approach, as you correctly write. Our lab facilities are complex, we have a data measurement section, a radiation measurement section, a prototype manufacturing section, an electronic systems invention section and a new materials preparation section: sometimes we have to invent materials that are not for sale.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Cheers

    Tim

    • BroKeeper

      Tim, this all fits into some logical assumtions:
      The fact that AR is proceeding onto another high project of such importance must mean the interested industry company is also satisfied with the E-Cat to proceed with this project. The only way the third party could conclude this is receiving feedback directly from the T.I.P. since Rossi is (assumingly) excluded from the test results. The only way the industrial partner could be given feedback aside from Rossi is that they are directly connected to the testing party.
      In my opinion the industry is not NASA alone since they vendor everything out but a very high profile company with both jet engine and energy interests. The only company I know of that fits this profile is GE having separate Aeronautics and Energy divisions. The announcement GE will be investing in distributed energy confirms such a strategy. They know the next step is domestic energy after industrial gas turbines (similar principles as Jet Engines or vise versa).
      GE is focused on future energy as their ads proclaim. If it is not GE then it would be a great shame if they missed this hoizon future of LENR.

  • Gerrit

    “Cold fusion continues 25 years after announcement”
    KSL channel from Salt Lake City
    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=1012&sid=29181949

  • Kwhilborn

    I still feel this means he is co-operating with NASA, Langley. A mere 200 Miles from where IH has set up shop in the Research Triangle.

    It is nice to think he is so satisfied with the ecat that he has moved on to almost unrelated areas of study, but I’d be happier thinking he is still stamping out ecat versions and testing them.

    It seems a bit like having Alexander Graham Bell trying to perfect an Iphone before releasing the phone to the public.

    Id like to see them build a 5 ton truck/motorhome that could drive non stop for months. It took the wright brothers demos of this nature before flight was ever deemed possible by many skeptopaths.

    • Christopher Calder

      “Id like to see them build a 5 ton truck/motorhome that could drive non stop for months.”

      Exactly. I have thought that a motorhome conversion to LENR would make the best public test because you could drive it coast to coast without refueling or even stopping, except at toll booths. You only need two drivers and perhaps a technician to monitor instruments to proven there is no dangerous gamma ray release or other dangers. Invite a news reporter along for the ride.

      • BroKeeper

        Perhaps a 53′ semi-trailer with a large HD timer screen on each side to indicate how long it has been powering it throughout the country.

        • Kwhilborn

          Yes. It would need to be big to fit hastily put together Hydrogen or electric conversions. Even most of a motorhome would look like a wild lab.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Q: Who will do the testing, Industrial Heat, or the Industry?

    The implications are significant.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    It might work best in a wind tunnel (or with a big fan pointed at the intake). I remember that the early 747’s engines would overheat if they idled too long before take off. So, a wind tunnel (flight simulation) might provide the cooling needed for the Hot-Cat to work properly.

  • Bernie777

    Interesting……Question from Silvio Caggia: (an “epistemological” question) “Has it a role in your explanation of Rossi’s Effect?” Rossi Answer: ” the answer is no, even if, generally speaking, the more you study, the more you have probabilities to understand ( oh, my God: while I am writing this, I get the impression that sometimes the contrary is true…when it turns to Physics, nothing is certain).”

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Rossi mentions once again Edmund Husserl’s concept of “Epoché”. Husserl meant with it that you should abstain from all judgments if you face a new phenomenon – the opposite of what most people usually do. That might be one of the reasons why Husserl’s philosophy (which is worthwhile studying, although difficult to understand) is usually devalued by natural scientists. I’m convinced that Rossi’s occupation with Husserl and other philosophers enabled him to keep an open mind – a key prerequisite for being successful in his field of reseach.

    • Job001

      Assumptions(including physics) inevitably fail when the data base changes sufficiently.

      Proof; Einsteins friend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Gödel Gödel mathematically proved in 1931 that all assumptions taken too far result in paradox, fallacy, incompleteness, or undecidability, however you wish to describe it.

      Equally important, modern neurological science is finding innumerable human biases and fallacies;
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

      Funding bias which was/is a strong factor in pathological science cold fusion evaluation errors and miss-judgements.

  • Gerard McEk

    Stationary jet applications requires a liquid change to gas using E-Cat heat -> gas drives turbine -> turbine drives compressor -> compressed gas in compressor is liquefied in condenser -> liquid flows (pumped) back to E-Cat heater etc. The turbine also drives an electric generator and possibly a pump. Maybe you can skip the liquefying part if you can find a gas that expands/compresses sufficiently with the used temperatures. It is a closed-loop process.
    So what gas/liquid is AR using? Water, methane, some freon, …
    It would be a real breakthrough if he can make a self-sustained system delivering net electrical energy during half a year. That is the proof of the pudding nobody can deny!

    • Bernie777

      Water….a steam engine. (:

      • Fortyniner

        A steam rocket perhaps?… But I suspect he is still meaning fixed turbines (steam?) – he seems to use the terms interchangeably. Either way his reactors would have to be running at many hundreds of degrees in order to make such an application feasible, presumably with reasonable stability.

        • Bernie777

          yes, when Rossi says jet engine, I take it to mean gas turbine, an electric power generator.

      • jousterusa

        In a movie treatment I wrote called “Steam,” there was a secret group of steam engineers idled by the use of the combustion engine that try to build a flying craft based on an upside-down tea kettle. Steam is powerful. In 1907, the Stanley Rocket, the last of the brothers’ line, reportedly hit 175 mph before striking an irregularity in the sand and going airborne for a quarter-mile. Because the boiler was fastened down with one mile of piano wire, it did not explode and William Marriott, the driver, escaped alive. We should never have given up on the steam engine. Now, with a new hydrogen generator a friend invented that can produce 30 gallons of hydrogen per minute (see HHOgames.com) ,creating sufficient steam might not be a difficult task. It just takes an engineer with resources and imagination!

        • Daniel Maris

          I’ve always been interested as to whether, in the tropics you could build a steam rocket that would use water vapour extracted from the atmosphere as it rose and whether that would give you some gain in turn of reduced propellant mass.

          • jousterusa

            I don’t think you cvould rely on the humidity level in the air. Right now, it’s probably 9 over much of West Texas. But remember that 1 liter of water using a CIHT (hydrino-tyoe) fuel cell would buy you 1,500 miles. So you could go a long way if you could carry 10 gallons of water!

            • Daniel Maris

              I was thinking more Amazonian rain forest.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      NatGas turbines don’t use liquid change to gas.

  • Christopher Calder

    I wildly speculate that a jet engine manufacturing company donated an old jet engine for Rossi to play around with and LENR-ize. Maybe they also loaned him a technical expert to help.

  • LENR G

    Must be NASA and perhaps some of their favored contractors.