The Earthquake Lightning Mystery — LENR Connection?

I received the following from ECW reader Gordon Docherty.

An article has been published on the BBC web site titled “Clue to earthquake lightning mystery”

From the article:

‘Using a tub of plain kitchen flour, [US scientists] discovered an entirely new physical phenomenon.

‘They announced their findings at the American Physical Society meeting in Denver.

“‘Our first suspicion was this has got to be a mistake. There must be something stupid we are doing,’ said Professor Troy Shinbrot, of Rutgers University, New Jersey.

“‘We took a tupperware container filled with flour, tipped it back and forth until cracks appeared, and it produced 200 volts of charge.

“‘There isn’t a mechanism I know that can explain this. It seems to be new physics’. ” (comment: that’ll please the pathoskeptics 🙂 )

‘Repeat experiments with other granular materials produced the same voltage phenomenon.

‘If it occurs along geological faultlines, sliding and cracking of soil grains could be generating millions of volts of electrostatic charge’

Hmmm…. now, doesn’t that look kind of familiar — a fine grained material subjected to compression waves (a.k.a. phononc waves)? OK, it’s not a whole geological basin, but if the phononic frequency is much increased, the material changed from flour to a metal hydride / metal deuteride (produced by saturating the metal lattice with a pure protium/deteurium cloud), and bombard the result with IR you’ve got yourself the beginnings of an LENR fuel cell.

As the heat releases the protium / deuterium from the metal hydride / metal deuteride, casimir cavities form that are also, as we now see, being subject in addition to micro electrostatic charge bubbles – a collapsing ball lightening bubble traps some of the protium / deuterium causing either fusion or the formation of something akin to a hydrino (depends on how protons / electrons / EM radiation interact).

“Ball lightening was one of those phenomena that was dismissed as impossible not so long ago, yet the evidence is now there for all to see, and the the fundamental characteristics of the “new physics” show many similarities to those being used to describe the many and varied flavours of LENR.

The important message therefore is this: LENR is passing the fractal test – we live in a fractal universe, where a pattern at one scale, repeats at larger and smaller scales. Without that symmetry, the universe would break down, and LENR does not let us down here”

Gordon Docherty

  • BroKeeper

    Roger and George, there should be an open-mindedness psychological test given to all government officials before appointed/elected to medium to high positions. But then again that would dissolve the current two party system. But a third thought that would dissolve politics. Hmmmmm… Oh well.

  • georgehants

    Roger, just maybe we are beginning to see a change in crazy science, where they actually start acting like scientists and not closed-minded sheep, trying to hide everything beyond a steam engine.
    Until the capitalistic money is removed from medicine, then the many, non-profit for the rich, important areas of the subject will never see the light of day.

    • Obvious

      Roger, I am not in total disagreement with you generally, but relying on the opinions of millions as proof simply isn’t good evidence that they are right. Millions disagree that CF can exist. Millions used to believe that slavery was acceptable. Millions believed that the Earth was not spherical, but flat. Millions, after the Earth was accepted to be a sphere, believed it had to be a perfect sphere.

  • georgehants

    Rupert Sheldrake
    my research on telepathy in animals, summarized in my book Dogs That Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home
    and published in detail in a series of papers (listed below), led me to
    see telepathy as a normal, rather than a paranormal phenomenon,

  • georgehants

    Sandy thanks, as expected no Evidence just expert “opinion” trying to cover up that they don’t have a clue.

  • georgehants

    Thanks Sandy, as expected no Evidence just an expert “opinion” on a possibility.
    The Evidence for UFO’s etc. is 100 times more, but debunked.

  • Obvious

    There are some studies which suggest (although in very loose terms) that pairs of entangled photons in the birds eyes allow them to (non-visually) detect magnetic field lines. I have no idea how that can be verified satisfactorily. Certainly magnetic iron detection seems a lot simpler.

    How about foxes spinning around a couple times and relieving themselves pointing north? (I saw it on TV).

    • georgehants

      Obvious, can you answer my comment to Iggy above concerning the moving magnetic pole etc.
      Is it fair to say that if birds can do the calculations necessary with a changing field to find one small beach in the World then there is something beyond the norm going on.
      Thanks

      • Obvious

        I guess the simple answer is that birds, as much as anything else alive, would have to use more than one method of navigating. Visual clues, smell, sounds, etc., in addition to orienting themselves to the right direction. Also consider that besides the Earth’s magnetic field, there are large geological magnetic fields that are essentially stationary relative to a location (compared to the lifetime of a species).

        • georgehants

          Thanks now, but do you agree it could be something else?
          Could we use that kind of navigation, using those magnetic lines?
          I think the only such method we use is gyroscopic with much computing.

          • Obvious

            Pilots (mostly short distance flights) must consider local magnetic fields when navigating, and have done so for decades, when not using GPS (which is fairly new for small craft). When we were flying around in helicopters in the Portland Canal, the pilots’ maps of these fields were very important to keep us from straying across the US-Canada border, as the fields were quite strong around there, and could mess up a compass severely. Heavy fog and low clouds often made VFR flying very difficult if not impossible some days.

    • Obvious

      Just wondering if the big chunk of the conversation that used to be below here was deleted for security reasons… I won’t bother trying to revive it. Just wondering so I don’t do it again…

      • ecatworld

        I don’t think I deleted a big chunk of conversation. Go down the bottom of this page and click on ‘more comments’ and see if you find what you’re missing.

    • Obvious

      New edit: never mind seems to be some sort of bug with my browser.

    • Obvious

      to Admin: When signed out of Disqus I see more of the conversation than when I am signed in. Weird.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Nickel is a conductor, therefore I would expect that potential differences will be balanced immediately. Regarding the bubbles, you would need a liquid in order to generate them, which isn’t present in the E-Cat as far as we know. But bubble fusion is anyway an interesting field. I wonder if someone has tried to generate the bubbles by hydrodynamic cavitation, as in the following device, which has been developed for the treatment of edible oil:

    http://www.ctinanotech.com/technology/technology-overview

    I would like to pour in some heavy water and observe what happens.

    • Gordon Docherty

      At the macroscale, in a “solid” block (no cracks) with relatively low frequency compression, maybe, but not at the scales being used in LENR, where ultra-fine, ridged granulates of non-uniform lattice structure subjected to ultra-high frequency compression waves (phononic waves) are used.

      At a recent lecture I attended given by Bernard Meyerson, VP Innovation, IBM, he pointed out that at modern clock speeds, that light travels just 6 inches (15 cm) – and those processors are only running in the Gigahertz range. In the Terahertz range, light will travel 0.0003 metres or less in one “clock tick” (0.0003 metres is for a frequency of 1 THz). So, we have to stop thinking in terms of “averages”, and see the world from a different perspective.

      This all having been said, no one is attempting LENR using a solid block of nickel. Now, perhaps, you know one of the many reasons why…

      As to bubbles, what is actually been referred to is an electric field of spherical or cylindrical geometry holding in a plasma. Linking this with inertial electrostatic confinement (one form of endothermic (COP << 1) hot fusion), where electric field "bubbles" work on charged particles (either ions or electrons), heating them to fusion conditions and ball lightening, and it certainly suggests a part that may be being played by such an effect in metal-hydride / metal-deuteride devices using ultra-fine, ridged granulates of non-uniform lattice structure subjected to ultra-high frequency compression waves (phononic waves)

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Regarding the micro-granulate, it’s natural that there will be effects which cannot be explained from the perspective of the macro-scale. On the other hand, F&P and others have been using solid metal samples. I think the comment above mentions two different types of “bubbles”. “Micro electrostatic charge bubbles” would be indeed something different. But if you look at the patents of Nanospire you will find that they partly deal with cavitation bubbles in liquids. However, I did not read them all yet.

  • georgehants

    bachcole, one day you may write something correct and without distortion.
    You say “you were the one who railed against pure research” I did not do any such thing!
    Please write your own comments and keep your inaccurate comments away from me.
    Thank you.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    I wonder how animals sense impending disaster? When Hurricane Katrina was approaching New Orleans,
    hundreds of hummingbirds stopped their migration and settled in at my house near Hot Springs, Arkansas.
    I had to rush to town and buy more feeders and sugar. The visitation started 2 or 3 days before landfall.

    • Sandy

      Some migrating birds navigate by sensing the very low frequency sounds caused by different terrains. The hummingbirds may have been able to hear the hurricane coming and then make efforts to avoid it’s fury.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Another theory on migratory bird navigation:

        “Iron containing short nerve branches in the upper beak of birds may serve as a magnetometer to measure the vector of the Earth magnetic field (intensity and inclination) and not only as a magnetic compass, which shows the direction of the magnetic field lines. Several years ago, the Frankfurt neurobiologists Dr. Gerta Fleissner and her husband Prof. Dr. Günther Fleissner discovered these structures in homing pigeons and have, in close cooperation with the experimental physicist Dr. Gerald Falkenberg (DESY Hamburg), characterized the essential iron oxides.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100223101419.htm

        • georgehants

          Iggy, would I be wrong to assume that magnetic field lines change continually, as I believe the magnetic pole is always changing position etc.
          If these birds etc. are using this method then I think their software updates are amazing.
          To connect the changes with very specific fixed locations is quite an achievement.

      • georgehants

        Sandy, and maybe they are receiving information from another unknown source.
        Only incompetent science or scientists would try to fit everything into a reductionist religious doctrine.
        Closed-minded fools who do not investigate and Research every possibility are proven by the shambles of Cold Fusion etc. to not we worthy of being called “scientists”
        Do you agree.

  • Obvious

    I recall stories of a desert location somewhere of white sandstone that would spark and glow as it cooled down from the day’s heat.

  • Chris I

    What’s the fuss? It just seems to be static, that’s all.

    Concerning earthquakes, you can expect it to differ from case to case quite simply because everything else does. It’s inevitably a roll of the dice.

    • georgehants

      Hi Chris, so it sees to be static in your “opinion” so all investigation should stop.
      That sounds a little like our wonderful qualified scientific experts regarding Cold Fusion and many other important subjects, do you not think.
      Ha.

      • Chris I

        George, I did not say all investigation should stop. I simply said it sounds like a lot more fuss than is justified. Strawman fallacy.

        I don’t see any reason to jump to the conclusion that there is anything other than static electricity to it. I don’t see their point about several of the things said. The “finding” about the flour doesn’t surprise me, apart from one thing: I didn’t think flour is a good enough insulator to have such high static electric fields. In any case it’s only one example of many similar ones.

        As for earthquakes, I was more surprised by the idea of it having been so long dismissed than by somebofy suggestting to look into it. The only thing is that there is little hope of sorting out the complexity. It could well become possible to develop some degree of detection, but it will be much like weather forecasting (and perhaps this at best). It’s hard to say how useful it could turn out to be, but it’s worth investigating.

        • georgehants

          Chris, thanks for the clarification, worth being careful not to seem to be denying and debunking things these days as our incompetent scientists are so fond of doing.
          I am sure you will agree that only open-minded, competent Research on any subject is scientific, including UFO’s and many other like phenomenon.

          • Chris I

            LOL so I should have surrounded my words with a disclaimer in block capital text and multicoloured icons, just to avoid sounding blasphemous in these hallowed halls.

            • georgehants

              Chris, well that is what you have done on your reply’s now.
              Might as well make plain in the beginning that you are not just giving an unscientific “opinion” and that further Research should not continue, like all those who have and are debunking Cold Fusion.

  • Gerard McEk

    A few years ago an Italian scientist reported gamma rays (and neutrons I believe) when he crushed rock under a press. He found at the broken fractions all kinds of unexpected elements, which he believed weren’t there before (but he obviously couldn’t prove that). His conclusion was that a lot of elements (Al, Ca, Na, etc) along the borders continental plates were formed due to this LENR like process. Based on this he (and also quite a few other scientists0 believed that LENR is being caused by tarring apart crystalline structures. Unnecessary to say that he was heavely criticized by the ‘regular’ academics. I know that also very strong (nickel containing) steel alloys are also prone to fractioning due to ‘Hydrogen brittleness’. It is believed that the pressure of hydrogen inside the metals can be so high that it starts to break the lattice apart, which may be the one of the causes that LENR takes place.

    Quite a few other scientists believe that high voltages/currents in combination with the right elements also cause transmutation and heat (Larson, Mills, Santilli and others). No doubt also lightning causes transmutation in plain (moistened) air. Maybe that is how phosphor is made and spread around the world, because except of birds poop finding places, no phosphor is found in minerals. I do not believe that lighting in our atmosphere is caused by LENR, but by static electricity, which is a very common and well understood phenomenon.

    • Obvious

      Phosphorus is really quite common, especially in arid areas due to evaporation concentration. Apatite in igneous rocks is an important source. Carbonatites (igneous carbonate intrusions) can have huge percentages of phosphorus and are mined for P. Most of the world’s phosphorus fertilizer comes from mining ancient salt lakes. It has been shown that most of the phosphorus in the Amazon actually comes from dust in Africa being blown across the ocean. Without that fertilizer, the jungles would have faded to a washed out wasteland long ago due to extreme leaching (although the rains themselves are in part caused by the dust itself).

      • Obvious

        Lightning has a lot power. Satellites have detected antimatter from lightning in the upper atmosphere.

        I first learned about hydrogen embrittlement when messing around with hot rods. The chrome plating shop refused to do the Jaguar axle because they said it would probably kill us due to weakening the axle by hydrogen embrittlement caused by the plating solution.

        • georgehants

          Worth pointing out that our brilliant scientists refused to believe or investigate the report of sprites for many years.

      • Gerard McEk

        The world is running out of Phosphorus. It is found everywhere, but not un usable concentrations to make fertilizer and that is what we need if we want to feed all the people on this earth. Plants need it to grow all fauna needs if for their bones. A lot of phosphorus is concentrated in feces of animals and people. In some caves and on some islands feces is concentrated trough million years of animal life and there we can dig for the coming 30 years our phosphate in large quantities. When that runs out fertilizer will become extremely expensive. This is even a darker scenario than the energy this website worries about.

        But this is not what I tried to say in the start of this discussion I have suggested that thunderstorms may be the source of phosphorus (I.e. by fusing of oxygen and nitrogen). If that is the case, thunderstorms become a major factor for life. I suggest to measure the concentration of phosphorus in normal rain water and in thunderstorm water and see if the phosphorus concentration is different.

        • Obvious

          Your idea about lightning-caused fusion making phosphorus is interesting. Whether or not it is an important source of P I have no knowledge, but lightning has been shown to be an important source of available nitrogen for plants. The process is electro-chemically combining oxygen and nitrogen, which mixes with water to form nitric acid, which falls as rain. Since most experiments involving this reaction were done in labs at much lower power levels than real lightning, it is feasible that other products may have been missed (IE: lightning-caused antimatter electrons (positrons) recently detected by satellite were not noticed for over 100 years) . I do have doubts whether transmuted P is a significant effect, but cumulatively even a tiny amount will add up in some places (notably in arid areas).

          I was concerned about your idea about phosphorus not being found in minerals, which can easily shown to be incorrect. Unless you meant something else that wasn’t clear to me.

    • Curbina

      This was discussed and published during 2013 here, and I also thought of it when reading this article.

      • Fortyniner

        Carpinteri, 2012 http://staff.polito.it/alberto.carpinteri/papers/CARPINTERI_2012_N.670_PMES.pdf

        Immediately attacked and defunded for this heresy by the Italian research establishment.

        • Curbina

          Yes, I had forgotten his name, Dr. Carpinteri. And exactly as you say, he was attacked and some policy makers decided to remove his funding. Way to go for unbiassed science.

        • Gerard McEk

          Indeed, thank you Fortyniner, for me you are Fifty now! 🙂 We should not forget his name (I mean Carpinteri). I liked his thesis and he could be just as right as P&F were.

          • Fortyniner

            Fifty…. I wish!

            Carpinteri is almost certainly right, at least in part, just as P&F, Wegener, Arp and all the other ‘heretics’ who are derided, and then eventually acknowledged as being correct when the evidence become incontrovertible. The behaviour of his academic peers is unforgivable. I’d like to think there will be a reckoning one day but don’t hold out much hope.

            • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

              I don’t know for carpinteri, and I suspect it is too early.

              LENr is very different as after 2-3 years it was massively replicated, measured, published, and no artifact was found, despite some miserable failures to find some by Hansen, Lewis, Morrison.

              Is anybody able to organise a PPT on Cold fusion

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_Peoples'_Tribunal

              I know someone who prepare one on Indonesia crime against humanity in 1965+… the problem would be to find a defense, once LENR is working.

  • fritz194

    Some folks built tiny pyramids with a coaxial tube filled with dry quartz sand in the center. When placed over leylines crossing they extracted few watts of power continously.

    • georgehants

      Careful fritz, you will blow the minds of “scientists” if you start putting forth Evidence for things that are beyond their religious doctrine.
      They do not care about Evidence only closed-minded opinion.

      • Job001

        Shush, quiet Eloi, the Morlocks are still sleeping…….

        • georgehants

          Ha, and them Morlocks sure are ugly things.

  • Job001

    Nothing new about electrostatic contact charging. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triboelectric_effect

    I build an antenna which due to blizzard snow contact threw 20,000V sparks continually. Not vastly different than thunderstorm creation of lightning, as it turns out. Grain elevators and flour mills explode routinely when the operators get lazy about maintenance and cleaning.

    Balloons rubbed on ones hair temporarily stick to the wall. A Van De Graaff can also be charged this way, although a high voltage coil with a high voltage diode worked better, for one I built.

    All great fun ideas but of limited use so far. Somewhat similar mechanisms at work for all these examples, nothing unscientific about it except for those who have not studied triboelectric contact charging.

    The point is this, great skepticism often results for things we are un-familiar with or ignorant of. That means, often even in science between specialities ignorance could, in theory, easily result in pathosketicism, although Funding Bias is a strong theory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funding_bias
    I suspect both funding bias and cultural ignorance are top suspects for what happened for CF and LENR due to the vast science cultural and funding differences between Physics, Chemistry, and Materials sciences.

  • Obvious

    I shook the flour in a bin by hand and got very dense packed flour. I was unable to replicate the crack-type failure.
    I recommend a mechanical shaker for further tests.

  • Curbina

    Don’t know why but as I read this aI was constantly thinking in the great static charge that a sandblaster causes in pvc tubes, and to me this wouldn’t be news due to that.

  • Obvious

    Neat. The piezoelectric effect might have something to do with the earthquake electricity, but probably not flour. I’ll give it a try, and hope I don’t make an accidental flour explosion.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Regarding possible explosions, look at the photos in the following document:

      http://www.aidic.it/cet/12/26/106.pdf

      • Obvious

        Mythbusters made a truly amazing fireball using a full barrel of coffee whitener and compressed air.
        We used to make small flour explosions for fun when I was a kid.